OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

[F.Harr]

Nothing in this comic is ever exactly as it appears.

That's one reason why it's so good. :)

And yeah, but knowing that doesn't mean there isn't fault. Significant fault.

[KorvinStarmast]

Again, the primary issue is Redcloack's stubbornness. Without that I don't think peace would even be terribly difficult.

And yet the Hatfields and the McCoys are still at it.

[Doug Lampert]

And yet the Hatfields and the McCoys are still at it.

Yep, I gather you can buy a ticked and catch the dinner show and of course they were on the TV game show "Family Feud" together.

They stopped actually killing people in 1888 when a bunch were imprisoned and one was hung, but the feud is occasionally lucrative for their distant descendants.

Because people can stop, although in the case of the Hatfields and McCoys it took two state governments to stop them.

[arimareiji]

It should be on the humans as well. They should be ready to defend themselves from goblin raids but also be willing to extend aid and offer trade to goblins who are not raiders.

You don't need to "extend aid and offer trade" to someone, if you're not perpetually driving them into scrublands and swamps so that they 1) can't grow their own food and 2) have nothing worth trading for.

Seriously: The only way goblins can 'deserve' to stop being killed is to grow their own food (which you're preventing them from growing), or have something worth trading for food (which you know they don't have, and will kill them to keep them from getting)? And until they 'deserve' otherwise in your estimation, they should stop trying to get food?

I could imagine this rationalization being offered by the commander of Team Peregrine, because the end result is the same: The only good goblin is a dead goblin.

_{Edit: Because unlike Thor, I never know when to stop editing.}

[Doug Lampert]

You don't need to "extend aid and offer trade" to someone, if you're not perpetually driving them into scrublands and swamps so that they 1) can't grow their own food and 2) have nothing worth trading for.

Seriously: The only way goblins can 'deserve' to stop being killed is to grow their own food (which you're preventing them from growing), or have something worth trading for food (which you know they don't have, and will kill them to keep them from getting)? And until they 'deserve' otherwise in your estimation, they should stop trying to get food?

I could imagine this rationalization being offered by the commander of Team Peregrine, because the end result is the same: The only good goblin is a dead goblin.

_{Edit: Because unlike Thor, I never know when to stop editing.}

Who prevented Right Eye from growing food and engaging in peaceful trade again? Because I'm pretty sure his village was doing fine and actively shown to be engaged in peaceful trade with humans until RC and X showed up and put a stop to that.

Who perpetually drove the Hobgoblins into scrublands and swamps where they couldn't grow their own food? They had 30,000 warriors because Azure City and O'Chul did NOT drive them off or attack them, they had a hobgoblin generation of peace. Who put a stop to that? You get three guesses, and guesses that are not RC and X don't count.

[Sapphire Guard]

It's fine to treat the goblins as individuals responsible for themselves, but that cuts two ways (three actually, because it counts for the gods too.)

The ones raiding their villages are adventurers, who make up a tiny minority of humans, dwarves, elves etc. 'The humans/elves/dwarves' are not periodically raiding, individuals within those groups are, just like the other way around.

Your average dirt farmer isn't doing any of those things. It's the adventurers that do these things, the people that climb the XP ladder. They're no more representative of their entire species than Redcloak is of his.

This is messy and complicated and realistic, which is why it's good writing. Redcloak has his own blindspots, as when he assumed Durkon's life was privileged and free of struggle.

[Jason]

Who prevented Right Eye from growing food and engaging in peaceful trade again? Because I'm pretty sure his village was doing fine and actively shown to be engaged in peaceful trade with humans until RC and X showed up and put a stop to that.

Who perpetually drove the Hobgoblins into scrublands and swamps where they couldn't grow their own food? They had 30,000 warriors because Azure City and O'Chul did NOT drive them off or attack them, they had a hobgoblin generation of peace. Who put a stop to that? You get three guesses, and guesses that are not RC and X don't count.

Even if they have nothing else to offer, the goblins can always offer cheap labor. Unskilled labor is quite valuable in medeival agrarian societies. The goblins will always be able to raise new and more unskilled workers faster than humans or dwarves (or especially elves).

Swamps, badlands and so forth are full of monsters in Stickworld, and monsters are themselves valuable commodities. Oona's whole tribe lives off of what they harvest in Monster Hollow. Aren't wizards always going on quests into swamps after rare spell components? So it's not without risk, but goblins in swamps do have things to trade.

[Ganbatte]

You don't need to "extend aid and offer trade" to someone, if you're not perpetually driving them into scrublands and swamps so that they 1) can't grow their own food and 2) have nothing worth trading for.

Seriously: The only way goblins can 'deserve' to stop being killed is to grow their own food (which you're preventing them from growing), or have something worth trading for food (which you know they don't have, and will kill them to keep them from getting)? And until they 'deserve' otherwise in your estimation, they should stop trying to get food?

You already wrote this, and a response was already given: they can offer labour.

[CountDVB]

You already wrote this, and a response was already given: they can offer labour.

It still has to be fairly compensated though as well as be respected as autonomous beings.

[WanderingMist]

I think we all know there's only one real solution, though Redcloak would most certainly be horrified by it:

1208:12

[Keltest]

It still has to be fairly compensated though as well as be respected as autonomous beings.

The dirt market being what it is, I can't imagine that human dirt farmers are fairly compensated or respected by society at large either, but I don't think there are many societies we have seen that would not mistreat the goblins the same way they mistreat their own lower class, at least. And that's (sort of) what Redcliak says he wants.

[WanderingMist]

The dirt market being what it is, I can't imagine that human dirt farmers are fairly compensated or respected by society at large either, but I don't think there are many societies we have seen that would not mistreat the goblins the same way they mistreat their own lower class, at least. And that's (sort of) what Redcliak says he wants.

Perhaps true, but being poor is something that can change through work or through luck. There is no way to not be a goblin.

Who prevented Right Eye from growing food and engaging in peaceful trade again? Because I'm pretty sure his village was doing fine and actively shown to be engaged in peaceful trade with humans until RC and X showed up and put a stop to that.

Who perpetually drove the Hobgoblins into scrublands and swamps where they couldn't grow their own food? They had 30,000 warriors because Azure City and O'Chul did NOT drive them off or attack them, they had a hobgoblin generation of peace. Who put a stop to that? You get three guesses, and guesses that are not RC and X don't count.

I think you missed the part where society in general would deem it okay for a random group of adventurers to entirely eradicate those settlements simply because they were goblin settlements. Heck, O'Chul himself points that out in strip 1227: Most adventurers, if they needed something from a goblin/kobold/troll/etc., would simply kill the goblin and loot the corpse. Yet, if goblins were to do that to human settlements, it would just reinforce their status as monsters that deserve to be killed.

[Keltest]

Perhaps true, but being poor is something that can change through work or through luck. There is no way to not be a goblin.

I mean, polymorph is a thing. So is reincarnate. But yes, your point is understood.

[Ganbatte]

It still has to be fairly compensated though as well as be respected as autonomous beings.

Naturally.

Perhaps true, but being poor is something that can change through work or through luck. There is no way to not be a goblin.

Pretty sure they're not being attacked because they're goblins but because goblins are perceived as hostile encounters by default, due to a history of hostile goblin encounters.
Once the practice of "goblin farmers for hire" gets going that perception is bound to change, especially since the guy hiring them wouldn't want them killed for no reason and the goblins could then legitimately use society's law system to prevent such attacks from there on.

[Nomen]

When I thought the gods deliberate made goblins weak then put them in a position where the only way they could get resources is to take them from others so people could have easy XP with built in excuses to go after it I thought the gods should be the ones to rectify it.
I believe I was right to believe that explanation until this comic because there was no counter explanation.
Now I know that the God who made them wanted them to succeed.
Although I'm willing to bet Fenir's plan was not exactly good for the goblins either but 1/3 of the gods are outright evil and the snarl will destroy everything if to much conflict happens between them compromises had to be made. Also the gods hands are pretty tied at this point.
Knowing what I know now I believe it is something that needs to be handled 90% by mortals.
I don't know if the other gods put goblins at a geographic disadvantage for game balance purposes or,
if Fenir put the goblins in bad territory to make them go after their neighbors stuff or,
if goblins started out on more equil terms but lost a few wars.
if the goblins lost a few wars I don't know who started them.
I believe it really doesn't matter at this point.
Right now whats going on is some goblins go into human lands kill them and take their stuff.
This makes humans feel like its okay to go into goblin lands kill them and take their stuff regardless of if these goblins did anything wrong.
This makes both sides not really care when a member of the other side is killed for their stuff. It also makes both sides work under the assumption that if the other side is in their territory they want to kill them for their stuff.
I believe another layer of this is the humans/elves in power are intentionally or not making it neigh impossible for goblins to get the resources they need to survive through means and calling it justice when they group punish goblins when some members of the goblin race choose violent solutions to the goblins dilemma.

[Jason]

I think you missed the part where society in general would deem it okay for a random group of adventurers to entirely eradicate those settlements simply because they were goblin settlements. Heck, O'Chul himself points that out in strip 1227: Most adventurers, if they needed something from a goblin/kobold/troll/etc., would simply kill the goblin and loot the corpse. Yet, if goblins were to do that to human settlements, it would just reinforce their status as monsters that deserve to be killed.

I note that O-Chul was speaking of trolls, not goblins; troll blood, not gold pieces or something you would loot from a goblin; and "adventurers," not "society in general"; so there are a few caveats to the idea that "O-Chul just confirmed that goblins are routinely murdered just for being goblins and non-goblin society is generally okay with that."

[WanderingMist]

I note that O-Chul was speaking of trolls, not goblins; troll blood, not gold pieces or something you would loot from a goblin; and "adventurers," not "society in general"; so there are a few caveats to the idea that "O-Chul just confirmed that goblins are routinely murdered just for being goblins and non-goblin society is generally okay with that."

O'Chul was speaking of trolls in that specific instance, yes, but the main point was that them being monsters at all made them an acceptable target for murder. Therefore, that statement can be generalized across all sapient monster races, given the evidence we've seen in comic, e.g., the elf commander for goblins, the bounty incident for kobolds, etc.

[Ganbatte]

O'Chul was speaking of trolls in that specific instance, yes, but the main point was that them being monsters at all made them an acceptable target for murder. Therefore, that statement can be generalized across all sapient monster races, given the evidence we've seen in comic, e.g., the elf commander for goblins, the bounty incident for kobolds, etc.

Bounty incident?

[hungrycrow]

Bounty incident?

When Belkar posted a bounty to get random adventurers to kill a kobold for him during one of the linear guild fights. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html

[bunsen_h]

Bounty incident?

"Getting paid to kill things: Cornerstone of the world economy."

[Jason]

O'Chul was speaking of trolls in that specific instance, yes, but the main point was that them being monsters at all made them an acceptable target for murder. Therefore, that statement can be generalized across all sapient monster races, given the evidence we've seen in comic, e.g., the elf commander for goblins, the bounty incident for kobolds, etc.

Only if society really does consider trolls and goblins to be equivalent. Trolls in the monster manual are generally described as more monstrous than goblins (being often described as having no society as such and eating anything they come across). They are also larger (and therefore appear more dangerous), usually Chaotic Evil and less intelligent than a goblin.

[danielxcutter]

Only if society really does consider trolls and goblins to be equivalent. Trolls in the monster manual are generally described as more monstrous than goblins (being often described as having no society as such and eating anything they come across). They are also larger (and therefore appear more dangerous), usually Chaotic Evil and less intelligent than a goblin.

The trolls Serini talked about saved her life willingly despite the fact that looting her corpse would be far more materially profitable.

[Jason]

The trolls Serini talked about saved her life willingly despite the fact that looting her corpse would be far more materially profitable.

O-Chul was talking about general attitudes towards trolls, right? Not this specific group of trolls. Obviously these trolls weren't monsters that ate everything smaller than them they came across.

[danielxcutter]

Well, obviously not. But it's heavily implied that most adventurers would just kill trolls(and other "monstrous races") simply because "monsters".

Kill them because they're raiding towns, or starting wars or doing unholy rituals or whatnot, I'm fine with that. But it's no different from humans or other sentient races doing such things either.

The problem is how easy many members of PC races find murder to be an acceptable solution when it comes to "monsters".

[Jason]

Well, obviously not. But it's heavily implied that most adventurers would just kill trolls(and other "monstrous races") simply because "monsters".

Well that's probably because typical trolls will try to eat anything smaller than them that they come across. In other words, they act like monsters.
I just think you can't generalize that how society treats trolls is automatically how they will treat other races like goblins.

[danielxcutter]

What proof do you have that "typical" trolls act like that in OotS? Time and time again OotS deviates greatly from the Monster Manual.

[Keltest]

What proof do you have that "typical" trolls act like that in OotS? Time and time again OotS deviates greatly from the Monster Manual.

I mean, thats fair, but also the more it does that the more it weakens any ability to make commentary on any sort of real world thing. Trolls that dont act at all like D&D trolls do but people just hate them anyway for... no reason at all, really... kind of a weak point.

[KorvinStarmast]

What proof do you have that "typical" trolls act like that in OotS?

We could start by asking how typical trolls act on internet forums. I have seen a lot of different styles, over the years.

Time for a little humor as this thread gets 'oh so serious' again.

[The MunchKING]

Perhaps true, but being poor is something that can change through work or through luck. There is no way to not be a goblin.

Technically not true. You just need to find a wizard capable of casting 5th level spells.

Or a Druid capable of casting their reincarnation spell, can't remember it's name.

[Ganbatte]

When Belkar posted a bounty to get random adventurers to kill a kobold for him during one of the linear guild fights. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html

But that was working as intended, not an incident. Heh.

Well, obviously not. But it's heavily implied that most adventurers would just kill trolls(and other "monstrous races") simply because "monsters".

Kill them because they're raiding towns, or starting wars or doing unholy rituals or whatnot, I'm fine with that. But it's no different from humans or other sentient races doing such things either.

The problem is how easy many members of PC races find murder to be an acceptable solution when it comes to "monsters".

Probably because most of the time monsters attack them when given the chance.

What proof do you have that "typical" trolls act like that in OotS? Time and time again OotS deviates greatly from the Monster Manual.

But until OotS proves that trolls in this world deviate greatly from the standard I'd say it's pretty fair to assume they simply don't and that the standard... stands.
Otherwise this logic could be applied to literally every entry in the Monster Manual that hasn't been consistently shown, even Xykon's.