OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

[Pax_Chi]

Interestingly enough, one could see this entire situation as an example of the importance of good parenting.

The gods didn't intentionally create the world as one where goblins would be on the lower totem pole. They created a world where, much like our own, survival of the fittest is a thing, and those that are either individually strong or willing to work together naturally rise to the top. However, most of the Good Aligned Gods actually invested time and effort into their creations, were available to them to help them out, and put the work in to render what aid they could within the limits of the rules of the setting. The goblins, meanwhile, were created by a god that grew bored with them and moved on to other things.

The disadvantage the goblins have isn't that the world isn't unfair to them. They're at a disadvantage because the Good gods actually took the time to raise their kids right, while the goblins were basically left to their own devices. At the same time, that adversity was enough that they created a god for themselves, basically a case of the oldest sibling stepping up to take care of everyone because their deadbeat dad/mom ran off and abandoned them. Only now they want to take out their grievances, not on the god that abandoned them, but on everyone else.

It kind of reminds me of a quote from Babylon 5:

In order to be free, you had to learn to fight no one questions that. But you've over-compensated. You're like abused children who have grown big enough to do the same thing to someone else as if that will somehow balance the scales. It won't. If you let your anger cloud your judgement it will destroy you.

[Phantom Thief]

Regardless if whether or not the God's should be considered malicious in allowing the Goblins to end up as they are, I dont think this changes anything for Redcloak.

Redcloaks original assertion was that the God's made the Goblins intending for them to be kept weak and to die for the sake of PC races.

Thors assertion is that Goblins are weak because Fenrir conceived them poorly, and the God's just couldn't do anything about it.

It's perhaps debatable whether the God's could have done more to compensate for Fenrirs poor planning, but it doesn't really matter.

At the present state of the world, it's agreed either way that Goblins have an inherent disadvantage in the world. It also seems to be the case that the Goblins are considered to be in lower standing than the PC races, because the God's DID seem to put effort into making sure those races were relatively balanced with each other in a way that Goblins are not.

So for Redcloak there's not really a solid reason to help Thor. Either the God's can do something to rebalance racial advantage, in which case Redcloak should insist on that given that it's agreed that Goblins are currently screwed over. Or the God's can't do anything, in which case it could be worth it to let the world be destroyed, since in a new world they would be able to prevent this imbalance.

I dont think the question of whether the screwing over was on purpose or accident changes that.

[Kruploy]

{scrubbed}

[understatement]

FYI, it wasn't really an "accident" either. Thor clearly knew what Fenrir was doing, he just didn't really do anything about it.

And if the Dark One's version is "uncharitable," I feel like Thor is probably being way too nice about the gods' version as well. They made a system of sentient beings that relied on violent conflict, but also at the same time want to keep their hands clean of it.

[Dragonus45]

But there is a divine mandate for Azurites to slaughter goblins, as seen by the fact that their paladins, who may only use lethal force in accordance with a divine mandate, slaughter goblins on the regular. The fact that it's merely a specific case of the general principle that the gods need the sentient races to be in constant conflict either with each other or potent non-sentient beings in order to generate XP doesn't matter to the goblins getting slaughtered. And while the gods haven't explicitly decreed that goblins aren't allowed to fight back, they created the world such that goblins would lack the tools to fight back.

How many of those paladins still had paladin levels after that fight? And no they don’t actually need sentient races on the whole to be in constant conflict, between individual bad actors like Xykon and actual monsters like own bears there are plenty ways to get conflict and exp without nations warring on each other.

[Ionathus]

FYI, it wasn't really an "accident" either. Thor clearly knew what Fenrir was doing, he just didn't really do anything about it.

And if the Dark One's version is "uncharitable," I feel like Thor is probably being way too nice about the gods' version as well. They made a system of sentient beings that relied on violent conflict, but also at the same time want to keep their hands clean of it.

Yeah, even if the gods didn't actively do it, I appreciate how Thor recognizes that they let it happen.

One thing that I'm really liking more and more about this conversation with Thor, after the negotiations with Redcloak, are how Durkon debated both of them. He took Redcloak to task about his behavior, and pretty clearly poked at his arguments and flimsy justifications. Originally I expected that was just Durkon's natural bias against Evil seeping through, but then he turned around and did the same thing to his own god, which has to take a lot of guts!

[Sir_Norbert]

Didn’t Rich say something about some of the paladins who slaughtered Redcloak’s village did fall? Not that it really changes much, of course.

Nope. What he actually said was along the lines of "I chose not to make it clear because that wasn't the point of the scene". However, ever since then, everyone and his dog has misquoted the line as saying "Yes, they definitely did fall, I just didn't show it", but that's not what he actually said.

[Good Coyote]

On Fenric as the god of monsters... I wonder if it's more like a god of knowledge, or god of vigilance situation. Fenrix as the god of monster status, which all races have, but not every individual is interested in having as a religious focus.

In other words, he's a god whose teachings focus very much on the "we're part of a dog eat dog ecosystem" view, pretty much exactly like TDO's teachings except Fenrib would say it as something to be embraced.

Except for the part about goblins being targeted specifically, and therefore it being something to hate other gods for, TDO's teachings do sound like a fairly typical set of Evil god teachings. You're here to get stronger or to be the fodder for someone else to get strong, so strike first and fight dirty.

Though thinking about it I wonder if TDO actually teaches that goblins were targeted specifically? Or did he just say "This happened to goblins," and not mention any other race because they aren't important to him. But then his followers are like "Oh, that explains the difference between us and everyone else." Or, maybe it was Loki who misleadingly didn't mention that this is a universal condition.


On another topic, I think this page actually brings the comic further away from representing real life situations. (Which I certainly don't object to it doing.)

[ratfox]

I realize it amuses me that most of the Dwarves have the Scottish accent but Thor and Odin none at all.

When did it become traditional for dwarves to have a Scottish accent in the first place? Does Gimli have a Scottish speech in the books? I think my introduction to the trope was Warcraft, which was largely based on Warhammer; but I don't know whether Warhammer dwarves have an accent.

[danielxcutter]

How many of those paladins still had paladin levels after that fight? And no they don’t actually need sentient races on the whole to be in constant conflict, between individual bad actors like Xykon and actual monsters like own bears there are plenty ways to get conflict and exp without nations warring on each other.

Technically you keep the Paladin levels, it’s just you lose most of your powers until you get an Atonement.

Yeah, even if the gods didn't actively do it, I appreciate how Thor recognizes that they let it happen.

One thing that I'm really liking more and more about this conversation with Thor, after the negotiations with Redcloak, are how Durkon debated both of them. He took Redcloak to task about his behavior, and pretty clearly poked at his arguments and flimsy justifications. Originally I expected that was just Durkon's natural bias against Evil seeping through, but then he turned around and did the same thing to his own god, which has to take a lot of guts!

Agreed. Heck, Durkon is a friggin’ cleric! Arguably he’s lucky that Thor is so chill.

Nope. What he actually said was along the lines of "I chose not to make it clear because that wasn't the point of the scene". However, ever since then, everyone and his dog has misquoted the line as saying "Yes, they definitely did fall, I just didn't show it", but that's not what he actually said.

Honestly I don’t think it even matters at this point, because it doesn’t change that Redcloak suffered a grievous injustice and the people who did it weren’t punished as much as they should have been.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, even if the gods didn't actively do it, I appreciate how Thor recognizes that they let it happen.

One thing that I'm really liking more and more about this conversation with Thor, after the negotiations with Redcloak, are how Durkon debated both of them. He took Redcloak to task about his behavior, and pretty clearly poked at his arguments and flimsy justifications. Originally I expected that was just Durkon's natural bias against Evil seeping through, but then he turned around and did the same thing to his own god, which has to take a lot of guts!

Not the first time he's been willing to call Thor out (last panel).

[Ionathus]

On Fenric as the god of monsters... I wonder if it's more like a god of knowledge, or god of vigilance situation. Fenrix as the god of monster status, which all races have, but not every individual is interested in having as a religious focus.

In other words, he's a god whose teachings focus very much on the "we're part of a dog eat dog ecosystem" view, pretty much exactly like TDO's teachings except Fenrib would say it as something to be embraced.

I'm not sure Fernis has all that much insight. His statement at the Godsmoot and Thor's depiction of him here feels more like someone who just embraces chaos and bloodshed, very similar to Yeenoghu in D&D mythos. He has the base animal cunning to recognize the potential of short-lifespan, quick-breeding creatures, but not the forethought or intelligence to plan ahead.

Except for the part about goblins being targeted specifically, and therefore it being something to hate other gods for, TDO's teachings do sound like a fairly typical set of Evil god teachings. You're here to get stronger or to be the fodder for someone else to get strong, so strike first and fight dirty.

Though thinking about it I wonder if the TDO actually teaches that goblins were targeted specifically? Or did he just say "This happened to goblins," and not mention any other race because they aren't important to him. But then his followers are like "Oh, that explains the difference between us and everyone else." Or, maybe it was Loki who misleadingly didn't mention that this is a universal condition.

In Start of Darkness, Redcloak tells TDO's version of "the Crayons of Time" and it features the other monstrous races (orcs, kobolds, lizardfolk, gnolls) being created in the same way as goblins.

From Redcloak's comments about Gobbotopia, I can see TDO becoming a god of monstrous humanoids in general. But I think Redcloak is maybe mostly paying lip service to that concept, and I doubt TDO has really considered it much at all -- he seems fixated on getting revenge/justice for the goblinoids, specifically.

ninja edit:

Not the first time he's been willing to call Thor out (last panel).

That one was also a more lighthearted jokey-joke, with less of a moral accusation, but yeah -- Thor is pretty (well, relatively) chill about criticism.

[B. Dandelion]

Sometimes a strip comes along and it's just the most perfectly satisfying thing. I feel like I have been waiting for this exact moment for a long time. A surprisingly long time. George W. Bush was still the president at the time when I first got invested in this plotline. To finally have that itch scratched is really something else.

Durkon's responses to all this are perfect and incredibly endearing. It's exactly how I want to see an objectively good person react to all of this. Well, I'm sorry he's depressed about it, but it affirms my belief that the story isn't going to end with some minor tweaks to the system but a fundamental transformation.

It didn't seem to me like the SOD story was discredited like I'm seeing some people say. (Durkon's "I really dinnae like how much that were na a firm, "Na."" is so great.) So the gods were more indifferent than hostile toward the goblins, that's really so much better. The system is unjust, because the goblins are given less to start, and that injustice perpetuates itself. The gods are reaping the rewards of that fundamental injustice. It's a legitimate grievance, and Durkon sees it too.

It is a complicated problem since the gods actually do need that "profit" to survive, and I don't think "well let's just kill all the gods" is going to be a solution. (Though a part of me would have enjoyed that plot.) But Thor's plan by itself is clearly not going to cut it as far as dismantling the injustice built into the system from the ground up.

(I'm speculating that the final resolution is going to be something like the people of the world who actually have to live on it coming together to re-write the rules for how things should work.)

Some details being wrong tells us the Dark One was either misinformed about the whole process that he wasn't around for, or more likely he intentionally took liberties with the truth. I'd guess the idea in creating the lore of the Crimson Mantle was to inflame the passions of the person wearing it as much as possible. It's tough to keep people motivated on a Plan that could potentially eradicate the souls of everyone on the planet. "The world is unjust and I could make it better" is OK, but it could be a lot better if you punched it up. Like "literally everyone is plotting against us and only by seizing the upper hand can we possibly have a chance to make things right".

[locksmith of lo]

just because you have had a billion false starts, does not make you an expert on what happens when you actually succeed and make it out of the starter area. being gods does not mean that there are no unforeseen consequences. the goblin races can be victims and that was not intentional act. it is just that it was not addressed and fixed, and now it has become enough of a problem that a god has actually been elevated to address this exact problem.

[Shale]

How many of those paladins still had paladin levels after that fight? And no they don’t actually need sentient races on the whole to be in constant conflict, between individual bad actors like Xykon and actual monsters like own bears there are plenty ways to get conflict and exp without nations warring on each other.

They don't need constant war of all against all, but they need some level of conflict so sentient beings can keep gaining XP. Whether that's large-scale war or monster-slaying or quests to defeat individual but high-powered villains, the system requires ongoing strife. They could have set things up so none of the sentient races would be in position to genocide the others, but they didn't so that emerged as a valid option with intelligent "monsters" as the targets.

[hroþila]

I'm going to call him Fensir and you can't stop me.

Real disrespectful to Phensiʀ if you ask me.

[CountDVB]

The problem is that deities are flawed like their creations, the mortals. They still bicker among themselves, they are not on the same side like everyone thinks except if it’s in the case of survival and it requires compromise to try and get the basics done.

Hell, the deities are also stuck in their ways because of mortal faith. Loki as god of lies can only really lie, not even able to tell a large truth to his own daughter because of that shape of belief.

The goblins are getting screwed, but problem is how it fix it. The gods are actively involved in creating the world, but then met it run mostly on its own besides the prayers of their worshippers or that shenanigans of one god or two, in this world, Hel.

Like, yes, we recognize a problem, but what exactly can be done to fix it, and that’s the hard part, especially since you have to convince Neutral and Evil gods to go along with it, and well, fat chance.

[Lethologica]

Real disrespectful to Phensiʀ if you ask me.

Yeah, this just isn't right. Pencil deserves better.

[Wraithfighter]

Here's the two main things that I took from this:

1: That while Redcloak is wrong that the gods were malicious with their actions towards the goblins, he isn't wrong that his people were placed in a disadvantaged state where they would be taken advantage of. Its just more "ignorance and indifference" instead, which tracks closely to a lot of, well, real-world aspects of systemic racism. Yes, systemic racism has plenty of malicious factors in it, absolutely, but its the twin demons of ignorance and indifference that can really have a huge impact on things.

So, yeah, Redcloak still has plenty of right to have a beef with the gods for this whole mess, but it's just a more common and (for lack of a better term) human sort of issue on the Gods' ends.

2: That, whatever solution does come up from this, there will be no Deus Ex Machina (or, well, Deus Ex Deus) solution to this problem. This is a problem. It needs to be sorted out for a non-hammer-y solution to the crisis. And the solution won't come from the gods, they are impotent with regards to sorting out the mess that they created (just like they are regarding the Snarl, for the most part).

Which really is the important part. Look, when you start having casual conversations with your Gods, it's important to they story that they can't solve things for your characters.

...oh, uh right. Also:

3: Minrah is a treasure, her double-act with Durkon is just delightful, and I'd love to know when Rich realized that he had a new major character for the comic :D.

[Good Coyote]

Another random thought. "They die early compared to other races (such as elves) but breed fast and that's why they are the dominant race" Isn't that the reason often given for why humans are the default race in many fantasy worlds? Though it's coupled with stuff like "adaptability" which is presumably the edge that Fenriq forgot.


I also think it's interesting that so far the discussion of "unfairness" is confined to unfairness between communities (and only fantasy racial communities). If one group of humans is in the wastes and another group of humans is in a lush forest, that isn't less unfair on the part of the gods than if the first group is goblins. If you're just individually poor because your parents were poor and you can trace that all the way back to your ancestors' starting conditions, then are you just as much a victim to the gods' need for conflict?

All of the starting populations must have been seeded with diversity, and that means some people are guaranteed to not do as well as other people in their own group, even if you don't know for sure which ones beforehand.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

To be honest, I don't think most of what Thor says is meant to be some kind of big reveal. I mean, I at least didn't really expect that the truth was going to be "yes, we gods specifically created the goblins as XP fodder". The truth is still something that Redcloak and goblinoids everywhere should feel angry about: that the world is designed as a zero-sum game where those who start out in more favorable positions are likely to do better than those who do not and through neglect that's where the goblins started out. So, in terms of how this changes things overall, I don't think Redcloak will really care that his version is less "charitable", even though I am glad to know that the gods aren't actively designing specific races to get beat up.

On the other hand, what is big is that the gods cannot make major changes to the world after it's been made. That means that even if the Plan does succeed, it's not like the gods can just divinely make everything right, although I imagine they can work in more subtle ways, like telling their followers to stop their treatment of the goblinoids.

[Dragonus45]

Another random thought. "They die early compared to other races (such as elves) but breed fast and that's why they are the dominant race" Isn't that the reason often given for why humans are the default race in many fantasy worlds? Though it's coupled with stuff like "adaptability" which is presumably the edge that Fenriq forgot.

I'm assuming Phensiʀs saw how humans worked out and said "Huh, those guys are managing to keep up with the elves and dwarves even though they don't live nearly as long. Guess the drive from knowing you don't have a hundred years to work out what you want to do with life and being able to have kids more often worked out for them... I JUST HAD A GREAT IDEA."

[Ekim One-Eye]

Clearly, the right answer is Fenri. He's Fenri the 8th after 7 previous monster-gods didn't get enough worship.

I hate you. /s

[Windscion]

Y'all are forgetting that in TDO's version, the gods realized that the "monster" races were numerous, and then gave them crappy lands to confirm their second rate status. This isn't addressed because Durkon hasn't heard that part (yet). To what extent that part is based on actual pantheonic history is not at all clear.

Thor might say "Okay, yeah, we made a few tweaks for balance." Or he might deny it. But his dismissive attitude towards Fenrir's approach weighs (if only slightly) against it being true.

[CountDVB]

On the other hand, what is big is that the gods cannot make major changes to the world after it's been made. That means that even if the Plan does succeed, it's not like the gods can just divinely make everything right, although I imagine they can work in more subtle ways, like telling their followers to stop their treatment of the goblinoids.

I mean, we kinda knew that given how Thor and Odin made it explicitly clear. After all, if everyone could play in the sandbox at the same time, all the sandcastles would keep getting kicked down quickly.

[Ekim One-Eye]

Eh, anyone who's played a modern game knows that publication is no longer the end of the matter, however firmly it once was*.

*And that still didn't stop, e.g., Tolkien from rewriting a whole chapter of The Hobbit years after original to fit with his Lord of the Rings retcons...

Really? I'd never heard that before.

[Ginasius]

I think you should start a thread about Fenrtanylr or whatever it is called....

[danielxcutter]

Y'all are forgetting that in TDO's version, the gods realized that the "monster" races were numerous, and then gave them crappy lands to confirm their second rate status. This isn't addressed because Durkon hasn't heard that part (yet). To what extent that part is based on actual pantheonic history is not at all clear.

Thor might say "Okay, yeah, we made a few tweaks for balance." Or he might deny it. But his dismissive attitude towards Fenrir's approach weights (albiet slightly) against it being true.

As has been said though, that really doesn't matter at this point. The goblins did get a pretty short end of the stick one way or another and the PC races largely treat them as XP fodder.

[Ginasius]

Really? I'd never heard that before.

That's true. In the original The Hobbit, Gollum actually gave the ring to Bilbo willingly because of the latter's victory in the riddle game. Or he tried to, but did not know that he had already lost the ring and that it was in Bilbo's pocket.

This fact was not compatible with the absolutely evil essence of the Ring, as subsequently established.

[hroþila]

Really? I'd never heard that before.

Originally, Gollum willingly offered the ring as a prize if Bilbo won the game, he apologized for having lost it (since Bilbo had found it earlier) and as compensation he showed Bilbo the exit. That made no sense in light of what Tolkien wanted the ring to be like in LotR, so he rewrote it, he reframed the original chapter as the version Bilbo told at first, and discussed it in the intro to LotR. In-universe, Bilbo lied about how he got the ring, probably already under the effect of the ring and wanting to appear more as its legitimate owner, and his lie made it into some of the manuscripts The Hobbit and LotR were based on, but Frodo wrote the true version of the story at some point.

edit: Fenzir'd