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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    It seems Durkon didn't have much thought to the implications of D&D afterlife being a glorified albeit complex digestive tract; at least until now.
    Last edited by faustin; 2021-04-22 at 12:00 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Literal world building.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    As has been said though, that really doesn't matter at this point. The goblins did get a pretty short end of the stick one way or another and the PC races largely treat them as XP fodder.
    It affects the question of malice. That the goblins are screwed is understood. It is, however, relevant to negotiations between the goblins and the gods. If the gods were in fact malicious, they cannot be expected to negotiate in good faith. This is TDO's viewpoint, and he has reason to think that way. If it was pantheonic indifference, negotiations are potentially easier. Basically, I think it has relevance to the eventual outcome of the story line.
    Last edited by Windscion; 2021-04-22 at 12:02 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    As has been said though, that really doesn't matter at this point. The goblins did get a pretty short end of the stick one way or another and the PC races largely treat them as XP fodder.
    Yeah, though the question is now what? The gods can tell their worshippers not to slay goblins anymore (least, as XP fodder, self-defense still applies), but that would require getting most of the gods on board, including the ones that actually run the land, environment, winds and so on. And that's a process in it of itself. The mortals, by and large, have to be the one to solve this one for this world.

    Then again, they are the ones who ultimately made goblins "XP fodder". The gods just didn't tell them no. That's the thing with free will and self-determination... cleaning up your mess and having to clean up other peoples' messes when they get too big and or too numerous and or too stinky to tolerate.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by faustin View Post
    It seems Durkon didn't have much thought to the implications of D&D afterlife being a glorified albeit complex digestive tract; at least until now.
    I mean, the deities still hang out with their mortals sorta. I think it's more like taking care of dairy cows for the milk sort of thing.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    I also think it's interesting that so far the discussion of "unfairness" is confined to unfairness between communities (and only fantasy racial communities). If one group of humans is in the wastes and another group of humans is in a lush forest, that isn't less unfair on the part of the gods than if the first group is goblins. If you're just individually poor because your parents were poor and you can trace that all the way back to your ancestors' starting conditions, then are you just as much a victim to the gods' need for conflict?
    I think one thing we've seen in abundance in OotS, for good or ill, is multiple largely-homogenous communities. Goblins tend to stick with other goblins. Elves stick with elves. Dwarves live up near the North Pole, and only a few venture forth. Remember how Laurin hates elves because they have the top lush portion of the Western Continent locked down, and everybody else has to "fight for scraps"? Humans intermingle, but that may be the exception more than the rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    All of the starting populations must have been seeded with diversity
    [Citation needed]

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Yes, historically they've both been used in various translations/contexts. I didn't go back to check which one I had previously picked. Maybe I'll fix it but it's not really wrong per se.
    Clearly it's a grammatical-mode thing. Other-god speaking to a mortal uses one form, god's own avatar speaking to other gods' avatars uses a different one.

    (I'm re-reading The Curse of Chalion, and recently went through the bit which mentions the various grammatical forms of Roknari: master to warrior, master to servant, slave to master, servant to lesser servant, slave to scholar... all distinguishable in just a few words.)

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    I mean, we can and do eat worms. Not generally going out and eating them out of the ground says more about our feelings about sanitary conditions and our ability to be choosy, than it does about whether they work as food. I mean, just because we generally don't eat wizened dirty apples, doesn't mean we don't eat apples.
    Don't forget How To Eat Fried Worms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginasius View Post
    That's true. In the original The Hobbit, Gollum actually gave the ring to Bilbo willingly because of the latter's victory in the riddle game. Or he tried to, but did not know that he had already lost the ring and that it was in Bilbo's pocket.

    This fact was not compatible with the absolutely evil essence of the Ring, as subsequently established.
    Another factor in the rewrite was the need to regain copyright status after Ace printed unauthorized editions of the books without paying royalties.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I think one thing we've seen in abundance in OotS, for good or ill, is multiple largely-homogenous communities. Goblins tend to stick with other goblins. Elves stick with elves. Dwarves live up near the North Pole, and only a few venture forth. Remember how Laurin hates elves because they have the top lush portion of the Western Continent locked down, and everybody else has to "fight for scraps"? Humans intermingle, but that may be the exception more than the rule.
    There's also fighting within the subgroups. Remember the Monster in the Darkness' observations over the pan-goblinoid narrative?
    Last edited by CountDVB; 2021-04-22 at 12:09 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I think one thing we've seen in abundance in OotS, for good or ill, is multiple largely-homogenous communities. Goblins tend to stick with other goblins. Elves stick with elves. Dwarves live up near the North Pole, and only a few venture forth. Remember how Laurin hates elves because they have the top lush portion of the Western Continent locked down, and everybody else has to "fight for scraps"? Humans intermingle, but that may be the exception more than the rule.
    Humans do seem to be exceptionally diverse, but it's not just intermingling with others. They have multiple distinct communities and many of them seem to have class differences within them. Not everyone's a noble. Some people are dirt farmers. The dirt farmers may have a claim of injustice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    [Citation needed]
    The diverse communities we've seen could have all descended from identical clones having kids with each other? I suppose. Kind of gross to think about though.
    Last edited by Good Coyote; 2021-04-22 at 12:22 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    There's also fighting within the subgroups. Remember the Monster in the Darkness' observations over the pan-goblinoid narrative?
    I don't think there's been much fighting with each other, if only because the bugbears are holed up in the ass end of the arctic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    It was about time that Thor debunked The Dark One's victimization narrative.

    It's a dark day for Goblin Justice Warriors.

    A much needed strip, Giant. Thank you.
    I don't fully agree.

    It IS a much needed strip, yes, and very interesting. It also sheds additional light on the matter of the creation of the world when, previously, we only had the Dark One's word on everything.

    What this confirms to me is that:
    1) The goblins' plight goes to the heart of what we currently call 'privilege'. While ostensibly being equal and held to the same standard, in point of fact it is far easier due to circumstance for the under-privileged monster races to be pushed into being weak fodder for other species than it is for dwarves or humans or elves. The other races were special to one god or another. The goblins had Fenrir. Whatever he thought of them, it was evidently so dis-satisfactory that, in my view, the goblins fired him as god and turned to worshipping one of their own in his place. It's possible Fenrir never revealed himself to them or made worshippers of them, viewing them indeed as mere cattle.

    2) We cannot wholly blame the good deities in the pantheon for this. This is not Middle-Earth, where all the world is fashioned to a Good design by Eru Illuvatar, and evil only exists because rebellious lesser spirits pervert his creation. No, this world was created by a mixture of good and evil gods from the start. Because of this, good has input into the process but they only get their way so long as they can persuade enough of the neutral gods to go along. As a result, there's a big section of creation that is evil by design, and the lot of the creatures so-created is thoroughly miserable. The system is unjust and broken from the start due to the presence of evil beings at its creation.

    3) Because of this, while we cannot blame the good gods entirely we can certainly blame the three collective pantheons as a whole for setting up a rotten world. Unfortunately, this is an appeal that will only work on the good and neutral gods. The evil gods don't care -- in fact, making it a miserable place is kind of the point, as it fosters evil .

    4) Thus , by the nature of good and evil which transcends the gods, the denizens of OOTS world have a legitimate grievance against their pantheons, and a legitimate pretext for war.

    Making a better world will require either A) remaking it with the assistance of 'ally' deities or B) The Valkyrie Profile solution.

    Spoiler
    Show

    In the True Ending, Loki kills all the gods but himself, then Luneth kills him and ascends in his place, becoming the sole ruler and god of the world.


    The downside is that even with mortal inputs or all formerly-mortal deities, there's no guarantee that the next world will be better than the current one. The gods reflect mortals, and vice versa. A new pantheon made up exclusively of former mortals would probably contains the same mixture of good and evil as the existing pantheon. Which means the new world would also be flawed.

    5) This conversation gives Redcloak a pretext to pull the trigger on the snarl and end the world. You read it yourself: The gods aren't going to be making any big changes to the world now that it's been created. Which means the goblins are always going to have the rough end of the stick and Redcloak's dream of a peer civilization equal with the PC races will be forever unrealized.

    Given this, Redcloak's likely solution will be to ensure the destruction of this world so that the Dark One will have a hand in making the next one ... IF he can ensure the Dark One's survival to that point, which at this point is doubtful, according to Thor.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    I love this kind of page, where you can analyse it from multiple perspectives. Here, there are three, maybe four ways to analyse this.

    First, the in-universe way: What is the problem here? Not that goblins were created weaker. They are created different, breed faster and have almost the same intelligence and overall stats as humans. If anything, the goblin race as a whole might be stronger than humans, or any other LA+0 race. No, the problem is that the world is created with XP in mind. And that is something that really can't be undone. As long as people are expected and rewarded for killing other people ("people" being used veeeery broadly here), there will always be a rolling stone effect, with people who are better at oppressing others become even better at that with time. And that is something that is really tied to how Gods work. To survive, they need the souls they create to cultivate XP before giving it to them. And that is the point of everything. Mortals, in the OOTSverse, are really just cattle for the gods. Granted, most gods care for the races they create. They help them, give them spells.... But when a race was created with no real intent and gets abandoned by the god that created them, that's where one can question the goal of one's existence. Is it really worth living if you're only created to eventually become food for a god that doesn't even care? Wouldn't it be better to not exist at all? Or to try to topple the system? If you win, you win everything. Your race becomes more important, more well-fed, gets attention from the gods... If you lose,you cease to exist, but if life has no meaning other than as XP for people to get by killing you, and soul food for the gods, then you lose nothing. Pascal's bet, everybody.

    But gods are as much impotent to change anything as mortals. They need souls to survive. And they need to survive for the universe to survive. So there is no real bad guy, here. Everything just tries to survive and live their life normally. But when you are so powerful, even a tiny error (you stop caring about one generic race when you are the god of every race in existence, since everybody is a "Monster" in D&D 3.5) makes millions of people suffer. And there is little anybody can do to change that. Increasing one race's power only means another one will get bullied into XP fodder status. Which leads to the second interpretation.

    Second, the metagame: Redcloak thinks goblins as individuals are weaker than other races. That is not untrue. But fixing that would mean having every race have the same power level. What is really pointed at here is the balance of the game. What Redcloak seeks is for the game to be balanced. Not have monsters that are too much weaker or stronger than others, or than PC classes. If we go further, if it wasn't goblins, it would be kobolds, or locathahs, or any monster too weak for its ECL.
    Balancing the game is hard. Gods have been at it for billions of worlds. WotC have been at it for 5 editions and countless books. They are all-powerful, in that they can create anything with any power level. But they are not all-knowing, and even when they make a conscious effort to balance things, it never turns out exactly as they predicted in the end. Monks were thought to be overpowered in the beginning of 3.5, to give you some context. And yet, they try. Goblins may have it rough, but they live, and they strive. They could even take a great paladin city. Very few classes are really unusable when well thought out. Almost no monster serves absolutely no role in the grand scheme of things. As Xykon said, "everything is oddly balanced". And that point of view leads to understanding that you can't change everything in one go. That's what Tome of Battle tried. Making martials not suck all at once. What it did was create another style of casting that made previous martials even worse. In-universe, it is the point of view that the Snarl must be contained forever. You can change balance little by little. But flipping the table will only lead to another, greater imbalance.

    Finally, the real-world way: I'm not going to speak of it in this post, as I'm not sure how the rules allow it in this case, so I'll switch to another post that you will be able to delete more easily.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I don't think there's been much fighting with each other, if only because the bugbears are holed up in the ass end of the arctic.
    According to Redcloak, the hobgoblins have bullied goblins, but he might have been referring to one or two specific hobgoblins who bullied him specifically.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by hroţila View Post
    Real disrespectful to Phensiʀ if you ask me.
    I don't plan on respecting Fnresnirs anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by hroţila View Post
    In-universe, Bilbo lied about how he got the ring, probably already under the effect of the ring and wanting to appear more as its legitimate owner
    I love how everyone who wants the Ring make excuses for wanting it:

    Isildur: It's a trophy.
    Déagol: I found it.
    Sméagol: It's a birthday gift.
    Bilbo: I won it in a game, fair and square.
    Frodo: It's my burden, given by the Council.
    Boromir: My people need its power.
    Saruman: I could make the world just right with it. It's for the Greater Good, I promise. Also I'm Gandalf's boss, I should have a better Ring than him.
    Samwise: I can share Master Frodo's burden.
    Grishnŕk: I want it, **** you!
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I don't fully agree.

    It IS a much needed strip, yes, and very interesting. It also sheds additional light on the matter of the creation of the world when, previously, we only had the Dark One's word on everything.

    What this confirms to me is that:
    1) The goblins' plight goes to the heart of what we currently call 'privilege'. While ostensibly being equal and held to the same standard, in point of fact it is far easier due to circumstance for the under-privileged monster races to be pushed into being weak fodder for other species than it is for dwarves or humans or elves. The other races were special to one god or another. The goblins had Fenrir. Whatever he thought of them, it was evidently so dis-satisfactory that, in my view, the goblins fired him as god and turned to worshipping one of their own in his place. It's possible Fenrir never revealed himself to them or made worshippers of them, viewing them indeed as mere cattle.

    2) We cannot wholly blame the good deities in the pantheon for this. This is not Middle-Earth, where all the world is fashioned to a Good design by Eru Illuvatar, and evil only exists because rebellious lesser spirits pervert his creation. No, this world was created by a mixture of good and evil gods from the start. Because of this, good has input into the process but they only get their way so long as they can persuade enough of the neutral gods to go along. As a result, there's a big section of creation that is evil by design, and the lot of the creatures so-created is thoroughly miserable. The system is unjust and broken from the start due to the presence of evil beings at its creation.

    3) Because of this, while we cannot blame the good gods entirely we can certainly blame the three collective pantheons as a whole for setting up a rotten world. Unfortunately, this is an appeal that will only work on the good and neutral gods. The evil gods don't care -- in fact, making it a miserable place is kind of the point, as it fosters evil .

    4) Thus , by the nature of good and evil which transcends the gods, the denizens of OOTS world have a legitimate grievance against their pantheons, and a legitimate pretext for war.

    Making a better world will require either A) remaking it with the assistance of 'ally' deities or B) The Valkyrie Profile solution.

    Spoiler
    Show

    In the True Ending, Loki kills all the gods but himself, then Luneth kills him and ascends in his place, becoming the sole ruler and god of the world.


    The downside is that even with mortal inputs or all formerly-mortal deities, there's no guarantee that the next world will be better than the current one. The gods reflect mortals, and vice versa. A new pantheon made up exclusively of former mortals would probably contains the same mixture of good and evil as the existing pantheon. Which means the new world would also be flawed.

    5) This conversation gives Redcloak a pretext to pull the trigger on the snarl and end the world. You read it yourself: The gods aren't going to be making any big changes to the world now that it's been created. Which means the goblins are always going to have the rough end of the stick and Redcloak's dream of a peer civilization equal with the PC races will be forever unrealized.

    Given this, Redcloak's likely solution will be to ensure the destruction of this world so that the Dark One will have a hand in making the next one ... IF he can ensure the Dark One's survival to that point, which at this point is doubtful, according to Thor.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    1- Granted, he just creates the monsters. We don't know if they really worship Fenris. Creator deities that otherwise remain inactive in their followers lives is not uncommon. Heck, now I'm reminded of how Crom from Conan the Barbarian is with the Cimmerians.

    2- Yeah, which is why they had to put in so many rules to prevent direct intervention. Odin's sand castle metaphor comes back into play here. I imagine the evil gods' agreed if because they know they'll also fight with each other and having a neutral playing field compromise preferrable to endless arguing and presumably starving.

    3- Depends which neutral gods. I suspect a large portion of them would be the gods who make wind or fire or whatnot, the elements and aspects of natural. Amoral, but not immoral. The good gods can only do so much to convince their peers and that's after they've all decided to work together. Different deities of good can still disagree. Miko was "Lawful Good", but got on everyone's nerves regardless of alignment.

    4- World is gonna be flawed regardless. Entropy demands everything be broken down and faults exposed, when hy we gotta keep pushing.

    5- Forever unrealized because of Redcloak's fault. The one who screwed up his brother's work with the goblin/human community and the one who refused what was pretty much the best shot he had with his goals regarding the deal with Durkon, all because at his core's he's a frightened and angry teenager who's way in over his head and while hardened by experience, still too irresponsible to own up to his failures.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Woo, new comic!

    Although, in 999, it seemed you called the god of monsters Fenrir rather than Fenris. I assume theyre intended to be the same?
    whenever someone does this i always end up reading old comics from that point for like 20 minutes.

    OOTS is just such an amazing comic it never gets old <3
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    So, the real world way: Imbalances due to being born in some place instead of another, from some parents, with some amount of money. Inequalities are everywhere. And the same way as in the comic, it really is nobody's direct fault. Everyone tries to live as happily as they can, helping other people only if it doesn't make them too unhappy in the process. But there are efforts made to reduce inequalities, or at least help people with less opportunities due to their environment to live a decent life anyway. And that is the take-away from the "we gods can't change big things all at once". In real life, there isn't a Pantheon of Gods that can fix anything by snapping (depends on your religion, but nothing that sudden has been observed at least for a millenium). The "gods", that is to say, governments and big companies and organisation, cannot change things easily without getting overthrown or having unintended consequences. Religious terrorism and violent wars such as Vietnam haven't helped their cause that much, and often the exact opposite. But there is something we can do. Actions we can take without simply destroying the system. And that is the little laws, the multiple small changes that, in the end, make mentalities change. Nowadays is the part of history when the least proportion of people live in extreme poverty, die of illnesses or hunger, and are uneducated.
    That is also one message that I found important in this strip. You have to understand the situation in a world to understand what is bad in it, and to be able to change it, even little by little.

    OOTS has always had a message of acceptation and equality, but having a good character really try to understand what others have been through, and above all the source of it and find a way to help them is a great step forward. Thank you for continuing to give use this webcomic for so long.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    "You'll think of something."
    Really helpful, Thor

    And I definitely love Durkon directly calling him out on the systemic inequity. Yeah sure, any race can succeed, but the ones with the pre-existing advantages generally do. And the gods did nothing to prevent that, and are still doing nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pax_Chi View Post
    Interestingly enough, one could see this entire situation as an example of the importance of good parenting.

    The gods didn't intentionally create the world as one where goblins would be on the lower totem pole. They created a world where, much like our own, survival of the fittest is a thing, and those that are either individually strong or willing to work together naturally rise to the top. However, most of the Good Aligned Gods actually invested time and effort into their creations, were available to them to help them out, and put the work in to render what aid they could within the limits of the rules of the setting. The goblins, meanwhile, were created by a god that grew bored with them and moved on to other things.

    The disadvantage the goblins have isn't that the world isn't unfair to them. They're at a disadvantage because the Good gods actually took the time to raise their kids right, while the goblins were basically left to their own devices. At the same time, that adversity was enough that they created a god for themselves, basically a case of the oldest sibling stepping up to take care of everyone because their deadbeat dad/mom ran off and abandoned them. Only now they want to take out their grievances, not on the god that abandoned them, but on everyone else.

    It kind of reminds me of a quote from Babylon 5:
    I agree with this take. It looks like parallel for being born in a rich nation with parents who care, VS someone born in a poor nation with parents who abandoned them. Dwarves had good land and plenty of God's who looked out for them, the goblins were born in a poor place with their creator just abandoning them. Note that more than one God supports the dwarves, not just their creator. So it doesn't absolve the non Fenrir gods. They could have looked out for anothers creations just like they do for the dwarves. It would have been free worshipping, an untapped share of the market!

    Why didn't they do that?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Good Coyote View Post
    Humans do seem to be exceptionally diverse, but it's not just intermingling with others. They have multiple distinct communities and many of them seem to have class differences within them. Not everyone's a noble. Some people are dirt farmers. The dirt farmers may have a claim of injustice.

    The diverse communities we've seen could have all descended from identical clones having kids with each other? I suppose. Kind of gross to think about though.
    Noble/dirt farmer injustice can also happen. They're not mutually exclusive. But if, as Redcloak says, goblins can't walk into a human/elf/dwarf settlement without getting slaughtered on the spot, that prevents them from joining any alliances or cooperating to become stronger and more resilient. The fact that they are in a weaker positioning has the potential to keep them in a weaker positioning, effectively.

    As for the "diverse communities" thing, I probably misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the communities were created with a mixture of completely diverse humanoid races, with goblins and elves and humans and dwarves and orcs all living alongside each other. My mistake.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Teioh View Post
    I agree with this take. It looks like parallel for being born in a rich nation with parents who care, VS someone born in a poor nation with parents who abandoned them. Dwarves had good land and plenty of God's who looked out for them, the goblins were born in a poor place with their creator just abandoning them. Note that more than one God supports the dwarves, not just their creator. So it doesn't absolve the non Fenrir gods. They could have looked out for anothers creations just like they do for the dwarves. It would have been free worshipping, an untapped share of the market!

    Why didn't they do that?
    Either non-interference clauses or given how many billions of worlds there likely have been, it's possible they just seem to lack the numbers to keep up to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "You'll think of something."
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    And I definitely love Durkon directly calling him out on the systemic inequity. Yeah sure, any race can succeed, but the ones with the pre-existing advantages generally do. And the gods did nothing to prevent that, and are still doing nothing.
    Probably because they didn't know what would happen and by now that they can, it's gonna be very difficult to do something. The gods are not one homogenous blob, but a wide and diverse faction, like mortals, and even mroe convoluted because they cannot stray from their core nature as we saw with Loki.

    Though also, it is ultimately the mortals who have to stop the killing and be the ones who get along with the mortals and so on. Gods have try to instruct and motivate them, but mortals have ultimately listen and make the decisions.
    Last edited by CountDVB; 2021-04-22 at 01:01 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Clearly it's a grammatical-mode thing. Other-god speaking to a mortal uses one form, god's own avatar speaking to other gods' avatars uses a different one.
    In the real world it was also a grammatical (case) difference. Fenrir is nominative case, Fenris genitive, as part of the phrase Fenrisulfr, that is, Fenris Wolf.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Noble/dirt farmer injustice can also happen. They're not mutually exclusive. But if, as Redcloak says, goblins can't walk into a human/elf/dwarf settlement without getting slaughtered on the spot, that prevents them from joining any alliances or cooperating to become stronger and more resilient. The fact that they are in a weaker positioning has the potential to keep them in a weaker positioning, effectively.

    As for the "diverse communities" thing, I probably misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the communities were created with a mixture of completely diverse humanoid races, with goblins and elves and humans and dwarves and orcs all living alongside each other. My mistake.
    I'd like to add to that - the Western Continent is mostly made of BOTH Lizardfolk and humans (plus elves way up top). Plus we've seen what appear to be Kobold communities that interact with other groups (at least something in Cliffport if we assume Mr. You Killed My Father was recruited there like Pompey), and I believe some other monsters interacting with humans/demihumans positively. It isn't just goblinoids, Trolls in particular seem to not interact with humans much based on Serini's conversation with Lien, but goblins having a lack of other races to interact with is a big issue for their own equity.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I don't plan on respecting Fnresnirs anyway.

    I love how everyone who wants the Ring make excuses for wanting it:

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    Samwise: I can share Master Frodo's burden.
    of all the people who interact with it, Samwise who might not be saying that as an excuse. But this is still an interesting list of descriptions.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    Probably because they didn't know what would happen and by now that they can, it's gonna be very difficult to do something. The gods are not one homogenous blob, but a wide and diverse faction, like mortals, and even mroe convoluted because they cannot stray from their core nature as we saw with Loki.

    Though also, it is ultimately the mortals who have to stop the killing and be the ones who get along with the mortals and so on. Gods have try to instruct and motivate them, but mortals have ultimately listen and make the decisions.
    Fair enough. These are the same gods who all collectively forgot about the dwarves all going to Hel -- they're certainly not all-knowing or perfectly intelligent.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    I'd been assuming for years, without realizing it, that either Redcloak was right that the gods deliberately gave the goblins a terrible starting condition, or that he was completely wrong and the goblins didn't really have a divinely-created bad starting position.

    The possibility that the goblins' bad fortunes were created by the gods by accident was not something I considered. But it does fit with the story.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Fair enough. These are the same gods who all collectively forgot about the dwarves all going to Hel -- they're certainly not all-knowing or perfectly intelligent.
    I guess they'd figure having Hel have one world of inanity would be not as bad as losing souls to the Snarl and plus, it would mean more deities would stand against her and try to defy her through their various peoples. That or she herself not knowing what would happen if she won regarding the "deific paperwork" if you will.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    Noble/dirt farmer injustice can also happen. They're not mutually exclusive. But if, as Redcloak says, goblins can't walk into a human/elf/dwarf settlement without getting slaughtered on the spot, that prevents them from joining any alliances or cooperating to become stronger and more resilient. The fact that they are in a weaker positioning has the potential to keep them in a weaker positioning, effectively.

    As for the "diverse communities" thing, I probably misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the communities were created with a mixture of completely diverse humanoid races, with goblins and elves and humans and dwarves and orcs all living alongside each other. My mistake.
    Ahh, I understand. No, I was shifting the focus entirely to within-community situations there. It does seem that starting populations were "this group of elves starts here, this group of dwarves starts here," etc, and that intermingled communities are a result of the descendants of those starter groups choosing to become intermingled.

    My point was that if the starting group of humans chooses, say, the physically strongest member to be their chieftain, then that chieftain's descendants are potentially advantaged by a genetic predisposition to strength, which was given to them by the gods (and can also be seen as everybody else being hampered as weaker by the gods).

    It's also possible that your stats are rolled at random at birth and you cannot genetically inherit anything in ootsworld. However, the chieftain's descendants are now also advantaged by being the children of the chief. The beginning of inherited wealth. Maybe their line is more likely to have the opportunity to produce a hero who has a very high quality weapon which becomes an ancestral blade.

    In addition, the people in power are able to make choices in disadvantaging other people in order to keep themselves in power within their own community (as the Azure City aristocracy does), just as the humans/elves/etc have the ability to collectively keep the goblins out of the circle if they choose to.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CountDVB View Post
    Probably because they didn't know what would happen and by now that they can, it's gonna be very difficult to do something. The gods are not one homogenous blob, but a wide and diverse faction, like mortals, and even mroe convoluted because they cannot stray from their core nature as we saw with Loki.

    Though also, it is ultimately the mortals who have to stop the killing and be the ones who get along with the mortals and so on. Gods have try to instruct and motivate them, but mortals have ultimately listen and make the decisions.
    The gods as an institution still have culpability here. As Durkon rightly pointed out, the general inequity of their origins and living situations is fostering and exacerbating that very conflict, so expecting mortals to do all the work needed to remediate it is neither fair nor reasonable. And not only do some races (e.g. Dwarves) have better land, food, equipment etc, they even have their own gods specifically to look out for their interests. Until The Dark One, the goblins didn't.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-04-22 at 01:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

    The problem the goblins are facing is a death spiral. Once they start losing, they begin losing FASTER. The game needs a blue shell.
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