OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

[Ionathus]

So I am curious how Orcs, Kobolds, and Lizardfolks doesn’t seem to have xp fodder status even with Fenris’ concepts?

Some people (myself included) believe that we've received hints about this, peppered throughout the comic. Roy's original party that wanted to kill orcs instead of negotiate with them; the Something-Good kobold that wanted to Inigo Montoya Belkar, but got massacred by adventurers; Lizardfolk having to scrape by in the desert, fighting for scraps and neglected by Tiamat; Sir Francois criticizing the adventurers who committed a home invasion on some orcs; things like this are admittedly up to interpretation a bit, but they're there if you look for them.

[hungrycrow]

I don't see where that's a disadvantage. It may be a "dumb idea", and Thor may be right for characterizing it as such, but it's not a disadvantage. It's like a game of Stellaris (a 4X space colony game, a bit like Civilization) where you can choose to have a race breed quickly but have a planet with little food. That forces you to make different choices, but the game isn't necessarily made harder as a result. It might encourage the goblins to get clever with their food sources, trade crafted items for food, find ways to limit population growth, etc.

It's a dumb idea in that it doesn't confer an advantage when it was intended to. Remember, there's a huge space on the spectrum between advantaged and disadvantaged. It's not a black and white case.

Remember how much Thor was able to shape dwarven society. Fenris probably had the same chance to shape early goblin society, and if Thor's characterization is accurate, he probably pushed them to make really terrible "opening moves".

[Dion]

Remember how much Thor was able to shape dwarven society. Fenris probably had the same chance to shape early goblin society, and if Thor's characterization is accurate, he probably pushed them to make really terrible "opening moves".

And ALL the gods, individually and collectively, didn’t bother to step in once Fenris got bored and stopped paying attention.

It might be tempting to look at the making of the goblins and say #NotAllGods, but it really was all of them that shared in the neglect.

[ziproot]

I don't see where that's a disadvantage. It may be a "dumb idea", and Thor may be right for characterizing it as such, but it's not a disadvantage. It's like a game of Stellaris (a 4X space colony game, a bit like Civilization) where you can choose to have a race breed quickly but have a planet with little food. That forces you to make different choices, but the game isn't necessarily made harder as a result. It might encourage the goblins to get clever with their food sources, trade crafted items for food, find ways to limit population growth, etc.

It's a dumb idea in that it doesn't confer an advantage when it was intended to. Remember, there's a huge space on the spectrum between advantaged and disadvantaged. It's not a black and white case.

Fenri(r|s) actually has a point, though. They just keep missing the one key thing that allows humans to pull it off: adaptability. Hence why humans get extra skill points and a bonus language: this lets them adapt to their surroundings. In order for their strategy to work, Fenri(r|s) has to not only give goblinoids quick breeding patterns, but also versatility.

[Aristocles22]

Remember how much Thor was able to shape dwarven society. Fenris probably had the same chance to shape early goblin society, and if Thor's characterization is accurate, he probably pushed them to make really terrible "opening moves".

Perhaps, but we don't know that. If anything, Fenris seems to have left them alone and didn't guide them much at all. That neglect may be bad, but it's nothing compared to the horror which we've seen from some of the gods like Tiamat or Nergal. Life in the desert as we've seen was hellish, huge amount of human sacrifice were apparently the norm, and warfare was endemic. None of these wars and downright evil gods did anything to stop the humans and lizards living there from developing a civilization, one stable enough to build large cities and huge monuments at that.

[Ruck]

I don't see where that's a disadvantage.

I mean, I dunno what to say to this. In a world where gods verifiably exist, can give their followers powerful spells, and shape their creations' early societies so they can go forth and thrive, a species' creator getting bored with them and neglecting them, or not giving them the tools they need to thrive, is something I certainly see as a disadvantage.

[Personification]

I don't see where that's a disadvantage. It may be a "dumb idea", and Thor may be right for characterizing it as such, but it's not a disadvantage. It's like a game of Stellaris (a 4X space colony game, a bit like Civilization) where you can choose to have a race breed quickly but have a planet with little food. That forces you to make different choices, but the game isn't necessarily made harder as a result. It might encourage the goblins to get clever with their food sources, trade crafted items for food, find ways to limit population growth, etc.

It's a dumb idea in that it doesn't confer an advantage when it was intended to. Remember, there's a huge space on the spectrum between advantaged and disadvantaged. It's not a black and white case.

The thing is, as others have pointed out, part of the balance of those games is that the whole set of circumstances is balanced so that the disadvantages don't outweigh the advantages. I don't actually see the issue being Pleasantville trying something and it failing, as some have put it, but as him starting something and not finishing it. Presumably, the assumption is that a god will spend more than one round on a species, especially if they want to champion it. So all of the classic PC species get several turns of attention from one or more gods, including some gods who add nerfs as well, creating a semblance of balance. With the goblinoids, however, Pleasantville spends a round having them exist, but by the time it gets back to him he gets bored, so when everyone expects him to spend a turn on giving the goblinoids natural resources or a predisposition towards a certain class or whatever, he instead takes the opportunity to make owlbears.

The issue is that nobody cared enough to put in the work finishing the balance on goblinoids, and none of the gods cared about them enough to act as an obvious sponsor for clerics or to tell PCs not to kill them.

To go back to your game example, while the game is balanced with the starting world for the fast-breeding faction having fewer resources, it most likely wouldn't be balanced if its numbers were much smaller, and the implication from the comic is that the goblins started with few enough resources that it DID matter. The fact that they happened to overcome this after over a millennium of struggle (in a small area, due in part to most of the well-leveled PCs in the area being unable to fight in the main battle because they were either paladins and had to guard the throne room or among the noble retinues that fled) with the help of a powerful outside ally doesn't really change the fact that they started off worse. What they did in Azure city was obviously terrible, but in the same way that being a victim doesn't excuse bad behavior, behaving badly doesn't stop one from being a victim.

[Aristocles22]

And ALL the gods, individually and collectively, didn’t bother to step in once Fenris got bored and stopped paying attention.

It might be tempting to look at the making of the goblins and say #NotAllGods, but it really was all of them that shared in the neglect.

That's where the arbitrary rules part comes in. I'm sure there could be a metaphyiscal or energy-related reason for it, some binding oath they took or a lack of power to take on another god's work, but it really is arbitrary why they couldn't/didn't help. That said, if we go by the parenting analogy, each god is like a father or mother to their own race each time they make one for each world. One isn't a bad parent or a bad person if one doesn't raise someone else's children when said children were neglected by their parents. Of course, there are issues involving this analogy too, but the point is, not all the gods are responsible for the neglect of just one of their number. Or even several of their number. No more so than good parents would be responsible for the misdeeds of bad parents.

[Aristocles22]

I mean, I dunno what to say to this. In a world where gods verifiably exist, can give their followers powerful spells, and shape their creations' early societies so they can go forth and thrive, a species' creator getting bored with them and neglecting them, or not giving them the tools they need to thrive, is something I certainly see as a disadvantage.

Even ignoring Redcloak and some other goblin clerics, we see hobgoblin clerics too, including some with Redcloak in Azure city. He wasn't the only goblinoid cleric. Fenris did a bad job, but it's not like the gods have forsaken them entirely. The tools mortals are given by the gods primarily come in the form of clerics and their spells, and the goblinoids clearly don't lack for those. It's just a fact.

[GregTD]

I don't think Thor being truthful about the gods' motives/methods makes Redcloak wrong in any way that really matters. Whether or not they specifically created goblinoids as fodder races, the pantheons still made a universe whose fundamental laws provide material incentives for sapient beings to kill each other, and didn't see structural inequities as a problem worth balancing for. Somebody was almost assuredly going to get the short end of that stick, and whoever it was would have a valid grievance against the gods who set it up so that would happen, even if they left the exact outcome up to chance.

No

The God who created them had a design strategy that he thinks will work. They can say "hey Fenris, your ideas suck!" And not worship him.

But it is not the other God's fault that they did a better job making their creatures than Fenris did making his.

Your failure to do a good job does not impose a burden on me to do a bad one.

One better armed and armored dwarf is likely to beat one worse armed and armored Goblin. But the point of Fenris' strategy is that it won't be one on one, it will be one on two, or maybe three.

And sometimes quantity does have a quality all its own

Would I rather be the creation of a K strategy God than an R strategy God? Yes

but that doesn't mean that R strategy never works. Heck, it worked when taking Azure City.

So no, Redcloak does not have a legitimate beef with any God, other than the God who created goblins, and the Goblin God who's lying to him

[The Pilgrim]

I think you're fixating too closely on the particulars and not looking at the big picture.

We've had several comparisons to the gods as family units, so let's use that. Thor, Odin, & co. see their brother Frirner creating his children, the goblinoids. They think "ugh here he goes again" and then watch him, predictably, neglect those goblinoids, who are conceptually their nieces & nephews. But they're focused on raising their own kids, and they don't really think that hard about the nieces and nephews.

Sure, the goblinoids aren't *their* children in the literal sense of the world, and they weren't being outright abused, but they're still family, right? They knew that Ferrari would do this, because he's done it before, right? Wouldn't you agree that, if the other gods had the ability to take those nieces and nephews under their wings, or at least check up on them from time to time, it could set those nieces & nephews up for a better life?

The Big Picture is that the Gods aren't going to fix anything. There are a sizable amount of them, each with his or her own goals, often in conflict. And they have that huge set of rules to prevent such conflicts from destroying the World and creating more Snarls.

Let's suppose Thor wanted to step in and do something for the goblins. He can't, because the goblins belong to The Dark One's portfolio. And before TDO, they belonged to Fernir. The goblins are out of bounds for Thor. And Gods don't like other Gods stepping out of their bounds.

Thor couldn't even oppose Fenrir during the creation process. Because opposing other Gods during the creation process is what actually created the Snarl.

You expect the Gods to take responsibility for the mortals, when they can barely take responsibility for themselves. Mortals should invest their efforts at improving their lives themselves, instead of expecting the Gods solving their problems for them. If anything, Durkon's mission involves a mortal solving the problems of the Gods, not the other way around.

[Personification]

We see hobgoblin clerics. One was even powerful enough to kill the high priest of Azure City, if you'll remember that low-budget fight with the saving throws. Fenris did a bad job, but it's not like the gods have forsaken them entirely. The tools mortals are given by the gods primarily come in the form of clerics, and the goblinoids clearly don't lack for those. It's just a fact.

The fight in question was with Redcloak (who isn't actually a hobgoblin), a cleric of the Dark One, who didn't exist when the world was created and whose philosophy is largely built around the other gods forsaking the goblinoids.

[Aristocles22]

The fight in question was with Redcloak (who isn't actually a hobgoblin), a cleric of the Dark One, who didn't exist when the world was created and whose philosophy is largely built around the other gods forsaking the goblinoids.

I caught that JUST as you posted it. Sorry. I had meant to say that there were Hobgoblin clerics WITH him at the time, not Redcloak personally in that fight. Redcloak is indeed a green "normal" goblin, not a hobgoblin. My overall point is still unchanged and just as sound, that there are indeed goblin and hobgoblin clerics, meaning they can call upon divine help in the form of spells just as any other species can.

[Aristocles22]

No

The God who created them had a design strategy that he thinks will work. They can say "hey Fenris, your ideas suck!" And not worship him.

But it is not the other God's fault that they did a better job making their creatures than Fenris did making his.

Your failure to do a good job does not impose a burden on me to do a bad one.

One better armed and armored dwarf is likely to beat one worse armed and armored Goblin. But the point of Fenris' strategy is that it won't be one on one, it will be one on two, or maybe three.

And sometimes quantity does have a quality all its own

Would I rather be the creation of a K strategy God than an R strategy God? Yes

but that doesn't mean that R strategy never works. Heck, it worked when taking Azure City.

So no, Redcloak does not have a legitimate beef with any God, other than the God who created goblins, and the Goblin God who's lying to him

Thank you. Yes, I understand that there's many sides to this issue, but not all sides are equally strong. Keep in mind that even the word of a god in a polytheistic setting isn't absolute. Thor isn't stupid, but he's not exactly the god of wisdom. It's possible that Fenris was onto something, and Thor didn't recognize it. Thor really does strike me as a quality over quantity sort of guy, what with his heavy, expensive armor and the similarly hard to mass-produce sort of equipment his followers seem to have.

[Dion]

That's where the arbitrary rules part comes in. I'm sure there could be a metaphyiscal or energy-related reason for it,..

This is where I have to ask: why would the reason even matter?

The reason might be literally anything. It doesn’t change the outcome.

Suppose the gods carefully explained the billion plus year background and history about exactly why none of them care about the goblins. Do you know what the goblins are going to hear?

None of the gods care about the goblins because reasons.

[Aristocles22]

This is where I have to ask: why would the reason even matter?

The reason might be literally anything. It doesn’t change the outcome.

Suppose the gods carefully explained the billion plus year background and history about exactly why none of them care about the goblins. Do you know what the goblins are going to hear?

None of the gods care about the goblins because reasons.

In-universe, the reasons might be very important, but since this is all fiction, it's supposed to be about a larger social issue IRL. We're not supposed to discuss it for fear of starting a flame war and breaking the rules, though. I have to question just how much the gods don't care, as we see goblin and hobgoblin clerics clearly drawing on divine magic, and not Redcloak doing it with his one god. And frankly, this is the neglect of one god, not all of them. Fenris seems like he kinda sucks as creator or patron deity. It's not incumbent on the other gods to fix his mistakes with his own race, especially when we know they have limited energy, limited time between worlds exploding and having to be rebuilt, and that stretching their resources too thin could result in all existence coming to an end. I guess those ARE good reasons in-universe for the other gods not to help, come to think of it.

Also, the good gods probably use more of their power to help their own followers than the less-good ones. If anything, the good ones would have less energy to spare for helping others. Kinda sad to think of it that way, but it makes sense.

[hungrycrow]

And ALL the gods, individually and collectively, didn’t bother to step in once Fenris got bored and stopped paying attention.

It might be tempting to look at the making of the goblins and say #NotAllGods, but it really was all of them that shared in the neglect.

My headcanon now for what happened is that Fenris had the goblins attack everyone they could, then got bored when that didn't immediately work out. That left goblins as prime soul real estate, but now they were at war with any clerics that could start evangelizing. Even if Thor had the foresight to think of the goblins' well-being instead of just defending his own flock, he'd be facing the same difficulties that Durkon is facing now.

Personally I like the way the comic explained things. It allows Thor and the other good gods to be mostly well-meaning while not invalidating Redcloak's criticisms.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, why do the goblins live outside the Northern Pantheon's demesne if a NP god created them?

Choice.

Anyway, the natural order of things is the stronger eating the weaker, and the entire OOTS universe is built upon that principle. Even vegans are preying upon defenseless plants, and so on. If the entire principle is unavoidable, then the lot of the goblins is more Fenris' design fault than it is of the good gods or the "good" races. I doubt very much Redcloak will buy that argument.

Back to hammer diplomacy, it seems.

Minrah is having a Belkar moment.

And why not, they are establishing common ground.

Clearly, the right answer is Fenri. He's Fenri the 8th after 7 previous monster-gods didn't get enough worship.

I got the ref, that's a hit from my childhood.

Huh, who could have guessed that the Dark Ones interpretation of event as presented to Redcloak was inaccurate... wonder if the Dark One knows how wrong he is or if this is just him manipulating his clergy.

The latter is my guess.

It means the statement is flat wrong, they did have a god before the Dark One, he just got bored of them and left them hanging.

I hadn't thought of it that way, and will cogitate on that. The gods have made millions of worlds. They even tried the movie snack world. Maybe Fenris was tossing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what stuck, to use a figure of speech.

And yes obviously the solution to the Fenrir/Fenris problem is to write it as "Fenriʀ", with a kind of retroflex z transitioning into r.

Another reason to look forward to your posts.

Also this likely closes the door on the Gods "patching" the world to address the grievance. Honestly that makes the possible solution more interesting. How do flawed mortals deal with a flawed world?

The gods have seen them try in millions of previous worlds, so the gods buy popcorn and see how the entertaining little buggers (mortals) sort it out.

However, this reading of goblinoid creation does bolster the possibility that maybe the Rat/Tiamat/Loki axis is, in fact, deliberately manipulating TDO.

As speculation goes, works for me.

Also, Minrah continues to be awesome.

Yes, yes she does.

It's a dark day for Goblin Justice Warriors.

I have a visual image of a grenade being tossed into a crowded room to see who will jump on it.

... part of being Lawful Good is knowing when to change the law.

*golf clap* yep.

As to "goblins created as monsters" every race has an entry in the Monster Manual. (IIRC, V made that observation hundreds of strips ago ...)

[understatement]

I caught that JUST as you posted it. Sorry. I had meant to say that there were Hobgoblin clerics WITH him at the time, not Redcloak personally in that fight. Redcloak is indeed a green "normal" goblin, not a hobgoblin. My overall point is still unchanged and just as sound, that there are indeed goblin and hobgoblin clerics, meaning they can call upon divine help in the form of spells just as any other species can.

But their divine help all comes from The Dark One, who was literally deified from a goblin that explicitly broke away/rebelled against whatever system was in place. And TDO only came into being like a few centuries ago, compared to the other pantheons' several thousand years.

[Aristocles22]

But their divine help all comes from The Dark One, who was literally deified from a goblin that explicitly broke away/rebelled against whatever system was in place. And TDO only came into being like a few centuries ago, compared to the other pantheons' several thousand years.

Divine help is still divine help. The spells are the same, and centuries are a long time to make a difference, especially when one considers how much longer that would be to a fast-breeding species. How many more generations would experience divine help during that time compared to humans or especially elves? If anything, the fact that goblins have the ability to cast divine spells now is a sign that things either got better for them or if they had the ability to field clerics before The Dark One, how they weren't at such a disadvantage all along. If nothing else, Redcloak is exaggerating just how bad the goblins had it; he's not exactly an unbiased source on the matter. As for the other (hob)goblins, if a victimhood narrative makes it easier to rally an army for looting, enslaving, and plundering, so much the better in their minds.

[Rrmcklin]

I'm still not seeing what the confusion about this is. Just look at Durkon's face and arguments throughout all of this - the take away here is not that there's some big misunderstanding or that the injustices and prejudices they're railing against aren't real, or that the gods aren't culpable for them.

[arimareiji]

Clearly, the right answer is Fenri. He's Fenri the 8th after 7 previous monster-gods didn't get enough worship.

I wouldn't have a Fillie or a Fam as my deity, either.

[Aristocles22]

I'm still not seeing what the confusion about this is. Just look at Durkon's face and arguments throughout all of this - the point is definitely not "Oh, The Darkone/Redcloak are just wrong and everything is super fair, and the gods have no culpability in this."

I never said there was NO fault in the gods; Fenris is a neglectful patron if nothing else. I get that it's supposed to be a complex moral issue- and it is- only that the evidence falls more on the side of the goblins being in the wrong here and that they're not just victims. And even if they were victims, that wouldn't actually justify anything or entitle them to anything; Thor even points out that it would be wrong to take land from people who did nothing wrong. It would be like robbing one group of people to pay someone who didn't have a good family life growing up. More to the point, the world wasn't set up to disadvantage the goblins anymore than a pair of neglectful parents (or a single father in the case of Fenris) is responsible for all parenthood being a corrupt institution. If nothing else, they shouldn't let Fenris make goblins anymore.

Durkon isn't perfect either. If anything, he's being too trusting and trying too hard to compromise with evil. Case in point, it didn't work. He even offered overly-generous concessions and it still wasn't enough to appease Redcloak.

[Ruck]

Divine help is still divine help. The spells are the same, and centuries are a long time to make a difference, especially when one considers how much longer that would be to a fast-breeding species. How many more generations would experience divine help during that time compared to humans or especially elves? If anything, the fact that goblins have the ability to cast divine spells now is a sign that things either got better for them or if they had the ability to field clerics before The Dark One, how they weren't at such a disadvantage all along. If nothing else, Redcloak is exaggerating just how bad the goblins had it; he's not exactly an unbiased source on the matter. As for the other (hob)goblins, if a victimhood narrative makes it easier to rally an army for looting, enslaving, and plundering, so much the better in their minds.

"It's okay that the god who created the goblins neglected them, because the goblins were eventually able to raise their own god" is not the rebuttal to "the gods neglected and disadvantaged the goblins from the start" that you seem to think it is.

[Rrmcklin]

I never said there was NO fault in the gods; Fenris is a neglectful patron if nothing else. I get that it's supposed to be a complex moral issue- and it is- only that the evidence falls more on the side of the goblins being in the wrong here and that they're not just victims. And even if they were victims, that wouldn't actually justify anything or entitle them to anything; Thor even points out that it would be wrong to take land from people who did nothing wrong. It would be like robbing one group of people to pay someone who didn't have a good family life growing up. More to the point, the world wasn't set up to disadvantage the goblins anymore than a pair of neglectful parents (or a single father in the case of Fenris) is responsible for all parenthood being a corrupt institution. If nothing else, they shouldn't let Fenris make goblins anymore.

But the world is set up so that there will be people who are disadvantaged - that they didn't set out specifically go "and those people have to be goblins" doesn't change the fact that it's a thing they did and that has had terrible consequences. When you create a horrible problem, you should bear at least some responsibility in fixing it, regardless of anything else. Thor just sort of... sidesteps that part all together though by bringing up an argument Durkon wasn't making (taking land from others) and specifically says they can't/won't try and make the goblins' lands better.

Not to delve into real world issues too much, but your take away here just seems completely at odds with how you actually deal with systemic/institutional issues.

[Aristocles22]

"It's okay that the god who created the goblins neglected them, because the goblins were eventually able to raise their own god" is not the rebuttal to "the gods neglected and disadvantaged the goblins from the start" that you seem to think it is.

That's not what I said. I'm saying it wasn't okay for Fenris to be a neglectful father, but that things ended up better later in spite of that misdeed as far as goblins being able to have a reliable patron goes. Insofar as TDO is reliable. More reliable so far, at least. Situationally-reliable. I never said that the situation was okay, just that it got better. Doesn't make what Fenris did right. He should still be held to some sort of account, as we'd hold a neglectful parent to account.

[ziproot]

As to "goblins created as monsters" every race has an entry in the Monster Manual. (IIRC, V made that observation hundreds of strips ago ...)

I looked in the Monster Manual and Humans aren't there (though Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, and Gnomes are).

EDIT: Not to mention that Angels and the various animals (Rat, Dog, Cat, Horse, Camel, Raven, Octopus, Dinosaur, etc.) are also included. So really "monster" is any race except Humans.

[KorvinStarmast]

OH. So every time they start a new world, Fenris tries to ZERG RUSH it!

I like Starcraft references more than Star Wars references. Well Played, GG, etc.

They were designed to pull a zergling rush. As the zergling rush failed, their creator lost interest in them. They became broken toys.

As someone whose zergling rushes were often unsuccessful, I can empathize with OoTS-Fenris.

All in all, the point is: It's up to the mortal races to solve their co-existence problems. Gods won't solve the problems for them. If someone relies on the Gods to patch things up, they are more likely to end up blowing up the World instead.

The deities have made millions of worlds. They don't fix anything; they just try something different the next time.

We are the "anything that moves" race, at least as long as the others are concerned.

With all of the 'half' races, humans are the 'do anything that moves' race.

They were created by Fenris to actually prevail. But the scheme failed.

As did a lot of my zerg rushes.

Well that was insightful.. how do you think RC would react upon learning that they did have a god, he just.. didn't care about them when he got bored.. probably badly.

I think it would double his appreciation for TDO, who does (at least seem to) care about goblins.

The Big Picture is that the Gods aren't going to fix anything.

Yeah; they just try something else next world. That's their habit pattern. However, a few of the gods (Thor and Loki for sure) see a chance to break the cycle, and TDO is the catalyst. He's the missing piece of their divine puzzle.

[Aristocles22]

But the world is set up so that there will be people who are disadvantaged - that they didn't set out specifically go "and those people have to be goblins" doesn't change the fact that it's a thing they did and that has had terrible consequences. When you create a horrible problem, youshould bear at least some responsibility in fixing it, regardless of anything else. Thor just sort of... sidesteps that part all together though by bringing up an argument Durkon wasn't making (taking land from others) and specifically says they can't/won't try and make the goblins' lands better.

Not to delve into real world issues too much, but your take away here just seems completely at odds with how you actually deal with systemic/institutional issues.

Thor didn't make the problem. Fenris did. I don't believe in collective guilt or collective punishment, even when the gods are involved. Each of them had his or her own races to be responsible for, much like each mother and father (or single parents) are responsible for their own children, not those of everyone else. You don't blame a good father like Thor for the deeds of a bad one like Fenris. At best, there could be a case made for the gods having a system wherein if one does a bad job at caring for their race, they lose race-making privileges and are consigned to making landscapes or something for the next several worlds or until they show they can do a better job.

And frankly, the land argument was basically where Durkon would have been going if not for him also bringing up the equally-impossible solution of simply making the goblin's lands better. Mind you, I've already shown how the quality of the land has nothing to do with the outcome of the species; poor soils weren't a problem for other races seen in story, even when they lived in a desert. It seems like an excuse on Redcloak's part to grab more land or to wrap up his own personal issues (revenge, among other things) in something allegedly nobler-sounding and appealing to more goblins.

[Sapphire Guard]

My bet would be Thor, being a Good god, disapproves of any 'expendable pawn' strategy.

Durkon is thinking like an adventurer, or possibly a dwarf, given they are expected to die in battle.

He's thinking in terms of individual duels, in a one on one fight a dwarf does have an advantage. But by that logic the average troll has a giant advantage over the average human, elf, or dwarf.

It also doesn't factor in non-combatants. Adventurers are rare, they are not the average benchmark for any species. Dirt farmers don't decide to exterminate goblins on a whim.

The goblins do appear to have a numbers advantage, we saw that in action in Azure city, where the average guardsman can take approximately three hobgoblins...so they brought four, and squashed them even with a deliberately wasteful strategy.