Coffeelocks in 2021

[Yakk]

This reading makes no sense. Spellcasting states that you recover all slots on a long rest and nothing says you can ignore that.

It's not a matter of arguing that it only applies to warlock spell slots- you have two different means of regaining slots and nothing allowing you to override one or the other. In contrast Flexible Casting has no such contradiction.

Pact magic says nothing about "regain slots gained from pact magic on a long or short rest", it says "regain all spell slots on a short or long rest".

The spellcasting feature lets you regain expended spell slots on a long rest, but says nothing about not doing it other ways.

There is no "overriding", there is just a feature that lets you regain all spell slots every short rest called "pact magic".

The wording -- "spell slots" -- of what you regain is **identical** to what you regain from flexible casting -- "spell slots". One requires a short rest to regain all spell slots, the other lets you spend sorcery points to regain spell slots. Flexible casting also lets you spend "spell slots" to gain sorcery points; again, the same wording as what you regain from pact magic.

Nothing in the Flexible casting section indicates that the spell slots need to be sorcery slots. The reference in pact magic to regaining all spell slots on a short rest is in a paragraph referencing warlock spell slots, the table indicating how many slots one gets, and only then pointing out that slots are recovered and how. I think you are attributing more power to something being a discrete sentence than actually exists (or at least that others would feel compelled to agree exists).

It is in the sorcerer class, and 5e classes are written as single classed characters. Many classes talk about "your level" when they mean "your level in this class".

The multiclassing rules are an optional extension to the single-classed default of 5e. They detail how to deal with the spellcasting and pact magic features of different classes.

In it, it explains that non-warlock spellcasting features stack in a specific way (you add up your levels in full casting, plus 1/2 rounded down half casting (rounded up for artificer), plus 1/3 if you have a subclass that grants spellcasting (rounded down). And for pact magic, it states you can spend pact magic spell slots to cast spells, and vice versa, but says nothing about spending spell slots on other features.

If we assume that "spell slots" in class descriptions for multiclassed characters refer to any spell slot you have, then coffeelock works. But so does using a short rest to regain your sorcerer spell slots.

If we assume that "spell slots" in class descriptions for multiclassed characters refer to any spell slot from this class, and any "stacking" spell slot from the multiclassing rlues, then coffeelock doesn't work.

Only if we decide on a case by case basis which "spell slots" refer to "this classes spell slots" and which refer to "any spell slots you have" can coffeelock reasonably exist while warlock 1 splash doesn't regain all of your wizard spells every short rest.

And if we are doing this on a case by case basis, why the **** are we stopping warlock 1 splash and keeping never-sleeping coffeelocks? Why is that the line?

Coffeelock to me looks like an over-complicted way to justify something that isn't as good as something simpler. The idea seems to be, if we make this trick require bending over backwards, we make it looks like a clever rules loophole we justifiably found.

Meanwhile, the exact same reading produces a far simpler and more powerful option with far less investment with a warlock 1 splash. But because it doesn't require jumping through strange hoops, it feels less like a clever exploit and more like an obvious conclusion that "spell slots" refer to "this class's spell slots".

[Valmark]

Pact magic says nothing about "regain slots gained from pact magic on a long or short rest", it says "regain all spell slots on a short or long rest".

The spellcasting feature lets you regain expended spell slots on a long rest, but says nothing about not doing it other ways.

There is no "overriding", there is just a feature that lets you regain all spell slots every short rest called "pact magic".

The wording -- "spell slots" -- of what you regain is **identical** to what you regain from flexible casting -- "spell slots". One requires a short rest to regain all spell slots, the other lets you spend sorcery points to regain spell slots. Flexible casting also lets you spend "spell slots" to gain sorcery points; again, the same wording as what you regain from pact magic.

It is in the sorcerer class, and 5e classes are written as single classed characters. Many classes talk about "your level" when they mean "your level in this class".

The multiclassing rules are an optional extension to the single-classed default of 5e. They detail how to deal with the spellcasting and pact magic features of different classes.

In it, it explains that non-warlock spellcasting features stack in a specific way (you add up your levels in full casting, plus 1/2 rounded down half casting (rounded up for artificer), plus 1/3 if you have a subclass that grants spellcasting (rounded down). And for pact magic, it states you can spend pact magic spell slots to cast spells, and vice versa, but says nothing about spending spell slots on other features.

If we assume that "spell slots" in class descriptions for multiclassed characters refer to any spell slot you have, then coffeelock works. But so does using a short rest to regain your sorcerer spell slots.

If we assume that "spell slots" in class descriptions for multiclassed characters refer to any spell slot from this class, and any "stacking" spell slot from the multiclassing rlues, then coffeelock doesn't work.

Only if we decide on a case by case basis which "spell slots" refer to "this classes spell slots" and which refer to "any spell slots you have" can coffeelock reasonably exist while warlock 1 splash doesn't regain all of your wizard spells every short rest.

And if we are doing this on a case by case basis, why the **** are we stopping warlock 1 splash and keeping never-sleeping coffeelocks? Why is that the line?

Coffeelock to me looks like an over-complicted way to justify something that isn't as good as something simpler. The idea seems to be, if we make this trick require bending over backwards, we make it looks like a clever rules loophole we justifiably found.

Meanwhile, the exact same reading produces a far simpler and more powerful option with far less investment with a warlock 1 splash. But because it doesn't require jumping through strange hoops, it feels less like a clever exploit and more like an obvious conclusion that "spell slots" refer to "this class's spell slots".

Would you say that non-warlocks can regain spell slots on short rests from their Spellcasting feature?

If not then applying the Pact Magic's short rest recovery to Spellcasting is senseless- because then the question becomes 'why aren't you applying the Spellcasting's recovery mechanic to Pact Magic instead'.

It's different from Font of Magic- here you're using how a feature works to radically change how an almost completely unrelated feature works.

In addition I'd point out that if it did work then basically any warlock would be better off leveling up as not-a-warlock, while every caster should take either one or two levels of warlock. Including people like EKs really.

[strangebloke]

RAW isn't mathematics, and its completely obvious that the "spell slots" referred to in the pact magic feature are the spell slot referred to in the pact magic feature and the only reason there isn't erratta clarifying this is because its obvious to anyone interpreting the text in good faith. RAI is RAW to an extent.

Flexible casting being limited to spell slots specified in a different class feature (spellcasting) is far less obvious. There has been clarification asked for, and it's come down on the side of 'no'.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Pact magic says nothing about "regain slots gained from pact magic on a long or short rest", it says "regain all spell slots on a short or long rest".

Yakk, what print edition is your Player's Handbook?
The 10th edition printing, (which is the most recent), states:
You regain all expended Pact Magic spell slots when you finish a short or long rest.

Nothing in the Flexible casting section indicates that the spell slots need to be sorcery slots.

I'm using this quote to springboard off into this quote from the PHB:
Pact Magic. If you have both the Spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the Pact Magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know.

It is a permissive reading of the text to go from an explicit enumeration that casting spells, interchangeably, from each class the multi-classed character has, to allowing Pact Magic to fuel smites or other class features.

It's a 'stretched' reading. I allow Pact Magic to fuel smites, and I acknowledge that it is a stretch of the text.

[Valmark]

Yakk, what print edition is your Player's Handbook?
The 10th edition printing, (which is the most recent), states:
You regain all expended Pact Magic spell slots when you finish a short or long rest.

Uh that's interesting, mine doesn't have that. I'll have to note it (not that it changes something, but I'd rather have it complete). Thanks!

[Yakk]

Yakk, what print edition is your Player's Handbook?
The 10th edition printing, (which is the most recent), states:
You regain all expended Pact Magic spell slots when you finish a short or long rest.

I was quoting dndbeyond, because copy pasta dead tree support sucks.

It is a permissive reading of the text to go from an explicit enumeration that casting spells, interchangeably, from each class the multi-classed character has, to allowing Pact Magic to fuel smites or other class features.

It's a 'stretched' reading. I allow Pact Magic to fuel smites, and I acknowledge that it is a stretch of the text.

Yep, in the original rules, the fact pact magic recovered non warlock slots was the same stretch as flexible spending warlock slots.

Would you say that non-warlocks can regain spell slots on short rests from their Spellcasting feature?

If not then applying the Pact Magic's short rest recovery to Spellcasting is senseless- because then the question becomes 'why aren't you applying the Spellcasting's recovery mechanic to Pact Magic instead'.

Sure. But you get it back on long rests from spellcasting... and short and long from pact magic.

And from sorcery points from flexible casting.

It's different from Font of Magic- here you're using how a feature works to radically change how an almost completely unrelated feature works.

Oh no. Font of magic trades one long rest refresh resource for another.

Coffeelock reinterprets it to trase a short rest resource for a long rest one.

Pact magic refresh makes along rest resource refresh on short rests.

Same economic shinanegans. Just one is more complex.

In addition I'd point out that if it did work then basically any warlock would be better off leveling up as not-a-warlock, while every caster should take either one or two levels of warlock. Including people like EKs really.

Sure. But coffeelock is equally silly, just costs 3 levels instead of 1.

I would advise against both myself. And apparently errata modified how pact magic is worded in the 10th edition.

[Valmark]

Sure. But coffeelock is equally silly, just costs 3 levels instead of 1.

I would advise against both myself. And apparently errata modified how pact magic is worded in the 10th edition.

Yeah the discussion is kind of moot due to errata, so I'll just add that it would have been substantially different- Coffeelock only works with Sorcerers, while the other version would have worked with anybody.