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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Fenris Master Plan

    As we all learned Fenris is the true creator and progenitor of goblinfolks inluding Darkone and Red Cloak. We also know that Fenris wants to "tear down the world" and was very supportive of the current world's destruction. Goblins are his pet project and despite of their previous failures to dominate other races, he's still working on that, including turning goblins into medium sized monsters in this version of the world, making them bigger and better threats against humans. So what is his endgame? He noticed that his medium sized plan was not enough, so he gave up on this world, and already planning a better version of goblinoids he's going to build in the next world. But to do that, he needs to destroy the current world first, or at least destabilize it enough, so snarl would get loose. To do that he needs a pawn, someone who would let loose snarl in his stead, so none of gods would suspect him. For that:

    He placed goblins on poor lands intentionally, so they would feel repressed and rise against the system.
    He created a special purple skinned goblinoid, Darkone, who thanks to his unusual feats and features rise above other goblinkin and became a leader of their rebellion against the system.
    He gave false information about goblinkind's creation process to Darkone, by using his allies Loki, Rat and Tiamat, so Darkone would seek revenge.
    He founded IFCC, tasking them with duty of doing anything to destabilize the world, that's why they wants "unnecessary conflict" and that's also why they stopped V when he was trying to stop Roy.
    By using his ally Tiamat's prophet he leaked Serini's location to Xykon, giving him locations of the gates. He used the same prophet to manipulate Eugene, Roy, and ABD, direct them into certain locations so they destroy the gates in his stead.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." We've already seen that Fenris has very petty reasons to want the world destroyed-- namely that he wants to tear everything down just because he wants to murder everybody. His traditional association with Ragnarok implies a relationship with making something new in the place of what is old, and we see that idea in Thor's view of Fenris as a god who easily gets bored with what's happening now and wants to make something new and interesting. Goblinoids are less his "pet project" and more like that New Year's resolution you try out every January but forget about by the end of February. He has completely understandable motivations, so far as "ooh, shiny!" can be considered a motivation, so there's really no need for a "master plan."
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by ByzantiumBhuka View Post
    Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." We've already seen that Fenris has very petty reasons to want the world destroyed-- namely that he wants to tear everything down just because he wants to murder everybody. His traditional association with Ragnarok implies a relationship with making something new in the place of what is old, and we see that idea in Thor's view of Fenris as a god who easily gets bored with what's happening now and wants to make something new and interesting. Goblinoids are less his "pet project" and more like that New Year's resolution you try out every January but forget about by the end of February. He has completely understandable motivations, so far as "ooh, shiny!" can be considered a motivation, so there's really no need for a "master plan."
    In other words:
    This relies on many tenuous assumptions being done by an elaborate chessmaster.
    Fenris is neither a chessmaster, nor someone with a long attention span, nor someone willing to so much as sit around for a few centuries guiding incredibly fast reproducing entities to conquer the lands.
    I doubt he would have a master plan here, he just made an impulsive move early in the world's creation and then abandoned it. A few millennia later, The Dark One showed up.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Dr.Zero's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    More easily explainable looking at it as a game of strategy.
    Fenris is a god of monsters, he wants monsters to win (and bring destruction), with goblinoids he tried to make his side win creating a specie able to do a zerg rush.
    Last edited by Dr.Zero; 2021-04-23 at 05:34 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Master Plan - Hah!

    I picture it more like this:

    At the Creation
    Fenris: My turn? All right! I'm going to put 5 points into "quick maturity" and 5 points into "breeds fast", uh, a point in darkvision, and I'm giving them tusks, and green skin!
    Thor: Goblins? Again? Dude, you have tried that literally a billion times and it never works the way you want it to.
    Fenris (snarls): Well maybe I just feel lucky this time.
    Odin: You spent all those points on getting more of them faster - where did you get the points?
    Fenris: I took them all out of "starting resources" and "magic talent".
    Odin: No real magic-users again? That sounds like trouble.
    Freyr: You do know that you need food in order to breed, right? What are your goblins going to eat when you gave up all their good land to buy them "breeds fast"?
    Fenris: Who cares what they start with? They're going to go conquer all the dwarf lands within a couple centuries.
    Thor: Yeah, they can TRY. Looks like I'll be giving the dwarves combat bonuses against goblinoids again.
    Fenris: And I made the green ones medium creatures this time. That'll give them just the edge they need to push them to victory.
    Thor (rolls eyes)

    A few centuries later:
    Fenris: Gaaah! Stupid goblins! Every time I get a good general or cleric with a few levels on them they die of old age! And it costs me five goblins just to kill one of your stupid dwarf fighters.
    Thor (a little smugly): It's not like we didn't warn you.
    Fenris: All right. FINE! You have failed me for the last time, goblins. I'm going to go see what I can do with the trolls and ogres. <Ragequits the goblins>

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Also, the Dark One might be seen as a competitor who might not make it to the next world if this one ends now.
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    I just went back to the sequence at the godsmoot and I think that Rich might've made a little typo in this last strip.

    At the godsmoot it is "Fenrir" not "Fenris", Fenrir sounds a little more allegorically pleasing on my tongue, but who knows, NBD.

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by DreamCreator View Post
    I just went back to the sequence at the godsmoot and I think that Rich might've made a little typo in this last strip.

    At the godsmoot it is "Fenrir" not "Fenris", Fenrir sounds a little more allegorically pleasing on my tongue, but who knows, NBD.
    First page of last strip's discussion thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Although, in 999, it seemed you called the god of monsters Fenrir rather than Fenris. I assume theyre intended to be the same?
    Yes, historically they've both been used in various translations/contexts. I didn't go back to check which one I had previously picked. Maybe I'll fix it but it's not really wrong per se.
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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by DreamCreator View Post
    I just went back to the sequence at the godsmoot and I think that Rich might've made a little typo in this last strip.

    At the godsmoot it is "Fenrir" not "Fenris", Fenrir sounds a little more allegorically pleasing on my tongue, but who knows, NBD.
    Not a typo - just a different, equally valid spelling. From the main thread for strip 1232:


    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Woo, new comic!

    Although, in 999, it seemed you called the god of monsters Fenrir rather than Fenris. I assume theyre intended to be the same?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Yes, historically they've both been used in various translations/contexts. I didn't go back to check which one I had previously picked. Maybe I'll fix it but it's not really wrong per se.
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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by ByzantiumBhuka View Post
    Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." We've already seen that Fenris has very petty reasons to want the world destroyed-- namely that he wants to tear everything down just because he wants to murder everybody. His traditional association with Ragnarok implies a relationship with making something new in the place of what is old, and we see that idea in Thor's view of Fenris as a god who easily gets bored with what's happening now and wants to make something new and interesting. Goblinoids are less his "pet project" and more like that New Year's resolution you try out every January but forget about by the end of February. He has completely understandable motivations, so far as "ooh, shiny!" can be considered a motivation, so there's really no need for a "master plan."
    This would also explain why the plan doesn't work in the first place. Species that reproduce faster tend to devote more resources into reproducing and less into being on top of the food chain. But if you're not paying attention, you're probably not going to ever learn this

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Thumbs up Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Not a typo - just a different, equally valid spelling. From the main thread for strip 1232:
    Thank you for the reference :)

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    I'm thinking Fenris is more a comment on how monster manuals are set out, with the pseudo-pc races brushed over in favour of the big cool monsters with higher CR.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by DreamCreator View Post
    I just went back to the sequence at the godsmoot and I think that Rich might've made a little typo in this last strip.

    At the godsmoot it is "Fenrir" not "Fenris", Fenrir sounds a little more allegorically pleasing on my tongue, but who knows, NBD.
    Something, something, Old Norse nominative versus genitive case.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by ByzantiumBhuka View Post
    Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity." We've already seen that Fenris has very petty reasons to want the world destroyed-- namely that he wants to tear everything down just because he wants to murder everybody. His traditional association with Ragnarok implies a relationship with making something new in the place of what is old, and we see that idea in Thor's view of Fenris as a god who easily gets bored with what's happening now and wants to make something new and interesting. Goblinoids are less his "pet project" and more like that New Year's resolution you try out every January but forget about by the end of February. He has completely understandable motivations, so far as "ooh, shiny!" can be considered a motivation, so there's really no need for a "master plan."
    Pretty sure those petty reasons are more than enough reason to label his position as driven by malice even absent a bigger plan, though. Hanlon's Razor seems less relevant than Occam's Razor in this instance.

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Fenris's plan actually would make sense for a non-intelligent species, e.g. a virus.

    The problem with humanoids is that they grow, acquiring knowledge and experience. The longer the lifespan, the greater their potential.

    A species that's healthy and functional beyond Age 200 can easily have most of its population with over 100-years of magical training, political experience, military strategy, weapon-crafting skill, engineering knowledge, etc..

    For example, how would 100 wizards (30 lvl-1's, 25 lvl-2's, 20 lvl-3's, 15 lvl-4's, and 10-lvl-5's) fare against a single epic-level wizard?

    Except it wouldn't even be that equal. For example, the low-level wizards would come from a society that wouldn't even know what high-level spells were; they wouldn't even know what the epic-level wizard could do to them, much less how to strategize against it. Plus they'd have sharp disparities in their equipment, training, and cultural norms, all strongly favoring the epic-level wizard.

    Fenris's strategy doesn't work for humanoids.
    Last edited by Some; 2021-05-02 at 04:57 AM.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Some View Post
    ***snip***

    The longer the lifespan, the greater their potential.

    ***snip again***

    Fenris's strategy doesn't work for humanoids.
    Unless it is not the length of a life but the intensity of a life that matters. In core D&D, the elven communities are never better endowed with spellcasters and, since 2nd ed, average elf and average human NPCs have been exactly the same.

    Ironically, considering this discussion, in 1st ed AD&D, both goblins and humans were 'less than 1HD creatures. (And Men was an entry in the Monster Manuel.)

    Consider the summer we spent in The Vault of the Drow and Queen of the Demonweb Pits. In a three-month campaign our level 8 characters topped level 16, (there were deaths along the way,) and above level 10 was back then considered the way epic is now.

    So, at least two elves, a dwarf, an assortment of humans and a gnome illusionist gained levels at the same rate, which was far in excess of what NPCs in towns could do.

    Given the warlike tendencies of the goblin culture, they should have many mid-level characters. In fact, they should have as many as are in all of the surrounding civilizations combined because they will have earned their exp fighting each other.

    Fenris is smarter than he looks on paper.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Some View Post
    A species that's healthy and functional beyond Age 200 can easily have most of its population with over 100-years of magical training, political experience, military strategy, weapon-crafting skill, engineering knowledge, etc..
    I studied for a century before i even mastered my first 1st level spell

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Fenrir Master plan isn't complicated:
    Tear down the world, murder everyone, piss on their graves.
    Strip 999 is the canonical source.
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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    I'm leaning toward those arguments that Fenris may not actually have a master plan. Fenris reminds me rather of the way my daughter creates RPG characters in... well, I was going to name a game, but it's basically any game. 1) Create a character around a cool concept 2) Be enthralled with that character for one or two sessions 3) Come up with a new and altogether cooler concept, create a different character 4) Rinse, repeat.

    The result being that no character reaches higher than maybe 3rd level, while all around her our friends characters (or mine, if its a computer RPG) are becoming 6th or 7th or 9th level and she's wondering how come she isn't able to cast Wall of Fire yet. "Because you retired that wizard character 9 weeks ago when she was 3rd level, instead of gaining XP and more spells," I explain. "You wanted to be a Drow assassin."

    Fenris: Big on inspiration, low on follow-through.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    I'm leaning toward those arguments that Fenris may not actually have a master plan. Fenris reminds me rather of the way my daughter creates RPG characters in... well, I was going to name a game, but it's basically any game. 1) Create a character around a cool concept 2) Be enthralled with that character for one or two sessions 3) Come up with a new and altogether cooler concept, create a different character 4) Rinse, repeat.

    The result being that no character reaches higher than maybe 3rd level, while all around her our friends characters (or mine, if its a computer RPG) are becoming 6th or 7th or 9th level and she's wondering how come she isn't able to cast Wall of Fire yet. "Because you retired that wizard character 9 weeks ago when she was 3rd level, instead of gaining XP and more spells," I explain. "You wanted to be a Drow assassin."

    Fenris: Big on inspiration, low on follow-through.
    As in a 9 year old finding out super cool ideas, or someone discovering TTRPGs for the first time?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Well, you can look at the Vorcha in the Mass Effect universe. They only live to 20, and are explosive breeders.

    However, THEIR main advantage is this: they are immune to all sickness. They can adapt to any climate.

    In their case, their world is a place not even the Reapers want to try to conquer. It's a death world worse than Tuchanka, so having a short lifespan that's immune to all natural ailments AND breeding quickly is the only way to survive there.

    I think they also don't require much food, but I haven't investigated that deep into the lore.

    Had Fenris wanted them to have a real advantage with other races, he should have made them either magic immune or extremely magic resistant, and with a low metabolism.
    Last edited by JonahFalcon; 2021-05-04 at 12:30 PM.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Lightbulb Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Master Plan - Hah!

    I picture it more like this:

    At the Creation
    Fenris: My turn? All right! I'm going to put 5 points into "quick maturity" and 5 points into "breeds fast", uh, a point in darkvision, and I'm giving them tusks, and green skin!
    Thor: Goblins? Again? Dude, you have tried that literally a billion times and it never works the way you want it to.
    Fenris (snarls): Well maybe I just feel lucky this time.
    Odin: You spent all those points on getting more of them faster - where did you get the points?
    Fenris: I took them all out of "starting resources" and "magic talent".
    Odin: No real magic-users again? That sounds like trouble.
    Freyr: You do know that you need food in order to breed, right? What are your goblins going to eat when you gave up all their good land to buy them "breeds fast"?
    Fenris: Who cares what they start with? They're going to go conquer all the dwarf lands within a couple centuries.
    Thor: Yeah, they can TRY. Looks like I'll be giving the dwarves combat bonuses against goblinoids again.
    Fenris: And I made the green ones medium creatures this time. That'll give them just the edge they need to push them to victory.
    Thor (rolls eyes)

    A few centuries later:
    Fenris: Gaaah! Stupid goblins! Every time I get a good general or cleric with a few levels on them they die of old age! And it costs me five goblins just to kill one of your stupid dwarf fighters.
    Thor (a little smugly): It's not like we didn't warn you.
    Fenris: All right. FINE! You have failed me for the last time, goblins. I'm going to go see what I can do with the trolls and ogres. <Ragequits the goblins>
    Make your words mine - I think exactly the same way, but you explained briliantly.
    10/10 absolutely nailed it, would pay you a drink.
    Last edited by Blue Dragon; 2021-05-05 at 08:26 AM.

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Some View Post
    Fenris's plan actually would make sense for a non-intelligent species, e.g. a virus.

    The problem with humanoids is that they grow, acquiring knowledge and experience. The longer the lifespan, the greater their potential.
    Yup. But Fenris does not care.

    It is not that he is unaware that weak humans and weak dwarves and weak goblins can sometimes become mighty. But nursing them along would seem like playing Tollbridges & Tavernkeepers when he could be enjoying something fun like Dungeons & Dragons. Fenris does not want to. He sees it as more fun watching the strong be strong because they are strong.

    BTW, given Thor's description, it is quite possible that Fenris' plan occasionally succeeds. After all, a stopped clock is right half the time, or perhaps 1 in a million worlds.

    I also do not think it is reasonable to trust RC's claim that the goblins were given the lousiest land, by some plan of the gods. For all we know, it was just the normal result of a war-like culture that spirals down with their losing streak: the good land gets taken by someone else.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Snails View Post
    I also do not think it is reasonable to trust RC's claim that the goblins were given the lousiest land, by some plan of the gods. For all we know, it was just the normal result of a war-like culture that spirals down with their losing streak: the good land gets taken by someone else.
    I think it would have been something like this. Fenrir wouldn't have given them poor land; he just left them ill-equipped to hold onto what they had. Not only do the goblins have to spread their resources thinner, the ultimate potential of the average goblin is much lower than that of a human or a dwarf.

    Besides, there's narrative convention working against them. The side with the superior numbers is supposed to lose.
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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
    Besides, there's narrative convention working against them. The side with the superior numbers is supposed to lose.
    Thor: My turn! Dwarves.
    Fenris: And for my turn...goblins! They will multiply to be overwhelming!
    Loki: I add Bards.
    Fenris: Noooooooo!!!!
    Hela: You are an idiot, Fenris.

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Some View Post
    For example, how would 100 wizards (30 lvl-1's, 25 lvl-2's, 20 lvl-3's, 15 lvl-4's, and 10-lvl-5's) fare against a single epic-level wizard?
    Pretty damn well if they didn't clump together too much.

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Master Plan - Hah!

    I picture it more like this:

    At the Creation
    Fenris: My turn? All right! I'm going to put 5 points into "quick maturity" and 5 points into "breeds fast", uh, a point in darkvision, and I'm giving them tusks, and green skin!
    Thor: Goblins? Again? Dude, you have tried that literally a billion times and it never works the way you want it to.
    Fenris (snarls): Well maybe I just feel lucky this time.
    Odin: You spent all those points on getting more of them faster - where did you get the points?
    Fenris: I took them all out of "starting resources" and "magic talent".
    Odin: No real magic-users again? That sounds like trouble.
    Freyr: You do know that you need food in order to breed, right? What are your goblins going to eat when you gave up all their good land to buy them "breeds fast"?
    Fenris: Who cares what they start with? They're going to go conquer all the dwarf lands within a couple centuries.
    Thor: Yeah, they can TRY. Looks like I'll be giving the dwarves combat bonuses against goblinoids again.
    Fenris: And I made the green ones medium creatures this time. That'll give them just the edge they need to push them to victory.
    Thor (rolls eyes)

    A few centuries later:
    Fenris: Gaaah! Stupid goblins! Every time I get a good general or cleric with a few levels on them they die of old age! And it costs me five goblins just to kill one of your stupid dwarf fighters.
    Thor (a little smugly): It's not like we didn't warn you.
    Fenris: All right. FINE! You have failed me for the last time, goblins. I'm going to go see what I can do with the trolls and ogres. <Ragequits the goblins>
    I like this one, seems pretty plausible and accurate, especially the downsides of breeding and maturing fast ending with no real leaders or power players within the goblin race.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    As in a 9 year old finding out super cool ideas, or someone discovering TTRPGs for the first time?
    As in someone who impulsively jumps from one enthusiasm to another, no matter what hobby we're talkng about. One week it's Star Wars, the next it's Trek, this week it's military movies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
    Namer Of MitD Threads
    Charter Member and Head Ninja of Peelee's Lotsey Ninjas
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [furiously scribbles notes on how Darth Paul is the MitD]

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    ClericGirl

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fenris Master Plan

    Hmm! Fenris, you smooth son of a wolf.
    Proud member of the Vaarsuvius Fan Club.
    -Hey, V, how much do you know about spirits?
    -In order for one to enjoyably consume Aged Dwarven Brandy, possession of two livers is a necessity.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2020

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