The Solution to the Goblins' Problem?

[Absol197]

I've been mulling this over since Durkon and Redcloak's parley ended, but the most recent comic (1234) has me feeling even more confident.

The solution is going to be that the goblins get to take the world in the rift as their own home. There are issues to work out, the big one being Snarl, of course, but if Redcloak helps with forging a new, Snarl-proof prison, then it could be locked away apart from both worlds. And possibly, both worlds could still have access to each other through the rifts, so they don't have to be isolated!

Obviously I don't have all the answers on the "how" yet, but we have a massive dangling plot thread of an empty world, and we have a people who need a fertile new home that doesn't have any pre-existing claim from innocent (if unknowingly privileged) owners.

Current best guess, to my mind!

[Jason]

I've been mulling this over since Durkon and Redcloak's parley ended, but the most recent comic (1234) has me feeling even more confident.

The solution is going to be that the goblins get to take the world in the rift as their own home. There are issues to work out, the big one being Snarl, of course, but if Redcloak helps with forging a new, Snarl-proof prison, then it could be locked away apart from both worlds. And possibly, both worlds could still have access to each other through the rifts, so they don't have to be isolated!

Obviously I don't have all the answers on the "how" yet, but we have a massive dangling plot thread of an empty world, and we have a people who need a fertile new home that doesn't have any pre-existing claim from innocent (if unknowingly privileged) owners.

Current best guess, to my mind!

So the solution will be not to find some way of getting along, but "separate but equal" worlds?

[UnintensifiedFa]

So the solution will be not to find some way of getting along, but "separate but equal" worlds?

Yeah I personally feel like using the Snarl as the answer sidesteps the problem and doesn't really drive home the heart of what the comic is trying to say. both on the "Separate but Equal" worlds, and also on the basis of "magical other world solves all the problems"

[hroþila]

I seriously doubt segregation is going to be the answer.

I don't think there's going to be a solution in-comic, that would be waaaaay too simplistic. We'll just see the current emergency being resolved and the first few steps towards a fairer status quo being taken, but inevitably there will be no certainties about the lasting success of those efforts.

[Absol197]

Okay, I know this is GitP so arguments are an inevitability, but I didn't really want to get into one.

So... alternate version I just came up with off the top of my head!

The current world IS destroyed, but all of the people are able to escape to the world in the rift. Then, led by Redcloak (likely after a realization that his path had been wrong), the goblins have an equal footing at the negotiations when the land in this new world is divided up, so they can negotiate for themselves a fair home. The people affected, not the gods, are in charge. Or even everyone agrees that dividing up the land as separate countries no longer makes sense and, despite the difficulties, makes one large world-spanning country.

Regardless, the exact specifics aren't want this theory is about. Rather, the fact that this issue has been framed as being about land and resources. The goblins were given a small allotment with poor resources, leading to inequity. Now we have an entire other planet, with no one on it to get hurt if a large population moves there. Whether that large population is just the goblins, or a sizeable (or even entire) population of OotS-world, it'll be involved in the solution because of the parallels being made.

Sorry for framing my initial idea so poorly.

[Giggling Ghast]

I think the problem with the planet in the rift is that it's very strongly implied to be the Snarl.

Let's not forget that another group of baddies came up with the idea of colonizing the planet inside the rifts (or at least raiding it for resources). When Laurin telepathically scanned the water, she didn't even pick up any trace of marine life, but she did accidentally alert the Snarl to her presence, prompting it to lash out.

In fact, I suspect the Snarl settled into the shape of a planet specifically to trick the gods after they destroyed this world. "Planet went boom, but planet still there? Maybe we should go check it oooOOOOOH NOOOOOOOOOOO"

[Absol197]

I think the problem with the planet in the rift is that it's very strongly implied to be the Snarl.

Let's not forget that another group of baddies came up with the idea of colonizing the planet inside the rifts. When Laurin telepathically scanned the water, she didn't even pick up any trace of fish life, but she did accidentally alert the Snarl to her presence, prompting it to lash out.

In fact, I suspect the Snarl settled into the shape of a planet specifically to trick the gods after they destroyed this world. "Planet went boom, but planet still there? Maybe we should go check it oooOOOOOH NOOOOOOOOOOO"

Ah, that's actually a good point. I was assuming that the Snarl didn't physically destroy the world, only annihilated any animals there (not specifically living things, because the world is green so there are still plants), and so the Snarl could be locked up elsewhere, giving us another world's worth of resources to work with. The gods would be most concerned with the actual souls on the "original" world, after all, not whether the planet itself still exists.

But if the Snarl IS the other world, and is taking that form to trap the gods, then... yeah, that wouldn't work. I guess... ignore me! I'm wrong, it was a bad idea, moving on .

[Giggling Ghast]

In fairness, I had a similar thought when I learned of the planet within the planet. Giving the goblins their own resource-rich world would be an amicable way of solving the inequality issue and would probably be enough to entice Redcloak.

But if the planet in the rifts is actually the Snarl, then that solution is fecked.

[Dion]

Why would we send goblins through the rift?

I can’t see why we wouldn’t send the humans.

[Anymage]

Even imagining that the new world is a resource-full utopia without any drawbacks, sending the entirety of goblindom there is basically saying that the solution to racial conflict isn't learning how to coexist in the same space. The solution is to literally send the other people somewhere far away where other people don't have to deal with them anymore.

That's ignoring the fact that a seemingly placid planet (except when probed) instead of a wrathful tangle of divine energies is setting up some huge reveal that there's a lot more than meets the eye here. Just on the face of things, the "moral" involved is not something I see anyone wanting to support. It gets put in the same real-world nope file as any solution that involves a character committing suicide.

[t209]

Well, we did see everyone being more or less okay with Orcs, Lizardfolks, and Kobolds.
The species who are also xp fodders but aren't treated like Goblins.

[Fyraltari]

Well, we did see everyone being more or less okay with Orcs, Lizardfolks, and Kobolds.
The species who are also xp fodders but aren't treated like Goblins.

While these orcs can't disagree with your assesment, I'm sure they would.
Likewise the trolls that rescued Serini. Or the black dragons.

Just because the goblins (may) have it worse doesn't mean they're an isolated case.

[t209]

While these orcs can't disagree with your assesment, I'm sure they would.
Likewise the trolls that rescued Serini. Or the black dragons.

Just because the goblins (may) have it worse doesn't mean they're an isolated case.

Yeah, I did point out goblins being more short end but other species doesn’t have their own Dark One (yet) and doesn’t seem to have animosity as large as them.

[Shadowknight12]

I think the solution is going to be shown to us in an montage-style epilogue (like the spiral we saw in Girard's Phantasm) where treaties are brokered across the world, probably with the protagonists acting as mediators. I think the only realistic way things can work is if everybody starts pitching in.

That means the elves in their verdant forests, the dwarves in their mountains, the humans in their cities, everyone signs treaties of non-aggression and begins sharing resources in a more egalitarian manner. And part of this will also mean that the goblins get Azure City but that they will ban slavery, grant free passage and perhaps even return part of the land to former Azurites (who will be making treaties of their own with the monster inhabitants of the island they got deposited on, instead of simply taking it from them like the goblins did to Azure City).

Perhaps the Azurites, with the Sapphire Guard's purpose dissolved, spread out across all the continents as part of this global treaty-signing, and found several small ports or enclaves in other locations, rebuilding their numbers and helping establish a global diplomatic and trade network. This could dovetail well with the goblins spread out across the world, being granted the same as the Azurites and having this global network be a joint work of both Azurites and goblins.

And yes, it does sound very fairy-tale-like to say "we use trade and diplomacy to have the entire world redress this inequality and we solve centuries of genocide, war and slaughter by having these two bitter enemies cohabitate and learn how to share" but honestly? This is the solution I genuinely think would be best. It would take an excellent writer to work up to that and then sell us that this solution is difficult, full of hardships but eventually proven to be the right one, but I think the Giant has what it takes.

[Mike Havran]

Obviously I don't have all the answers on the "how" yet, but we have a massive dangling plot thread of an empty world, and we have a people who need a fertile new home that doesn't have any pre-existing claim from innocent (if unknowingly privileged) owners.

The goblinoids do not need a fertile new home. They have it already. The previous owners? Dead, exept for the few crumbs on an island far away. Their leader of the crumbs does not seem to care about conquering their ancestral home back. Other nations do not care. History moves on.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Solution to the Goblins' Problem?

Fenrir already presented it.
And this time, Fenrir, don't do the same old thing you did before.

[Mechalich]

I think the central issue here has to do with a fundamental divide between the needs of the gods and the needs of mortals.

The mortals would all like to live in a post-scarcity utopia where everyone lived in safety, drew on nigh-infinite magic for their needs, and partied all the time. A state that is, in the pseudo-3.5 ruleset OOTS uses, completely achievable.

However, this world probably have the consequence that after a few generations no one but a handful of magically obsessed people would ever do anything dangerous or gain any levels, and the deities would be starved of the high-quality souls they need.

The gods need conflict because conflict produces XP and they are essentially using the entire world as a giant XP-generating machine. Inequality is a source of conflict, in fact it's almost certain the most important source of conflict there has ever been. The needs of the OOTS deities are explicitly anti-utopian, they mandate conflict. This is, actually, verging on grimdark. The gods need war to feed! isn't quite WH40K, but it's definitely headed that way.

So the ultimate solution is one that has to change things on the cosmic level, which is complicated, but it's possible that bringing the gods back up to four colors and allowing them to at least resist the Snarl long enough to talk to it is an important first step.

[tanonev]

I think the central issue here has to do with a fundamental divide between the needs of the gods and the needs of mortals.

The mortals would all like to live in a post-scarcity utopia where everyone lived in safety, drew on nigh-infinite magic for their needs, and partied all the time. A state that is, in the pseudo-3.5 ruleset OOTS uses, completely achievable.

However, this world probably have the consequence that after a few generations no one but a handful of magically obsessed people would ever do anything dangerous or gain any levels, and the deities would be starved of the high-quality souls they need.

It's possible to gain XP without fighting. It may be hard, but it's not fundamentally excluded by the design of this world.

[Vknight]

I seriously doubt segregation is going to be the answer.

I don't think there's going to be a solution in-comic, that would be waaaaay too simplistic. We'll just see the current emergency being resolved and the first few steps towards a fairer status quo being taken, but inevitably there will be no certainties about the lasting success of those efforts.

I dunno maybe it will work ohhh we could move the humans and stuff to the new world and the goblins keep the old one that could be a solution leaving all the bad guys behind with the goblins to deal with.

Or the Snarl isn't evil like the gods think and its just its own god which made its own world and wants to join the sandbox.

[Xelbiuj]

So the solution will be not to find some way of getting along, but "separate but equal" worlds?

I see it as less segregation and more, 2-state solution.
To beat the metaphor to death;
Under Redcloak, they refuse to integrate peacefully and instead want to enslave and kill other humanoids.
To see the problem as it is, reveals the solution. Murder their extremist religious leaders holding a jihad against creation.
Kill Redcloak and free the goblin people to fulfil their own destinies.

TC's title was incorrect, it's not the goblin's problem, it's Redcloak's.
Treating the goblin people like a monolith by allowing RC to represent them in totality, from which his authority to do so comes from simply blasting the previous dude, is one of the many problems here.

In summary;
1. kill Redcloak and any other goblin that won't comply with "don't destroy/risk the universe"
2. Destroy the mantle.
3. Demand non-goblin humanoids to recognize the basic "humanity" of the goblin people and allow them to integrate as the other humanoid races do.
4. Allow them to hold Azure city as their capital. (Or take the other world as tc suggested, if viable.)
5. Going forward treat conflicts as conflicts between agents, not goddamn race wars. Sometimes it's just about the resources, not the skin color and fangs, hence intra-species violence.

[NerdyKris]

The new planet has no animal life that Laurin could detect and contains a god killing abomination. As far as we know the seal would just seal it on that planet, not put it somewhere else. But even if it did, that planet is dead. There's no life on it. You wouldn't just be sending one group of sentient beings over, you'd need to send over plants, animals, a whole ecosystem. It would basically be terraforming and colonizing Mars. It's not even clear the planet is habitable. We see "something" covering most of it, either an ice cap or it being destroyed somehow.

{Scrubbed}

[Precure]

It's still mostly green, which means plant life.

[Fyraltari]

The new planet has no animal life that Laurin could detect

Yeah, what's the range on that? Because I doubt she's managed to scan the whole planet. And the fact that there was no life in the area directly across the portal might have to do with the elderitch abomination moving towards it.

[Beeftank]

I think there really isn’t a perfect solution to the goblin’s problem. I know Durkon floated the idea of telling Hinjo and the Azurites to give up their claim to the city, but even if Hinjo grudgingly accepts, there is no way that will go over well, even with the non-scheming members of the society. I know to us it the invasion happened over a decade ago, but in comic time it was a few months ago, basically everyone there was recently forced from their home, I can’t see them being happy with being told, “Not only are we going to not help the reclaim the only home you people have ever known, you have to give up all claim to it. Sorry it’s for the greater good”.

I think the best we can hope for here is that the gods redefine morality a bit. Redcloaks problem is that goblins are xp farms for PCs, right? Well why not just have each of the pantheons send a message to their followers along the lines of “hey, from now on, in any given situation where killing a member of your race is an evil act, so is killing a goblin. Adjust yourselves accordingly.”? Yeah it won’t solve everything, but it’s the only reasonable solution I can think of.

[Pax_Chi]

The solution to the goblin's problem?

Hard work and patience. Lots of it.

Unless something radical happens, the goblins aren't going anywhere. They're going to have to share this world with the other races, and the other races are likewise going to have to learn to share with the goblins.

The goblins got a raw deal, but in terms of their standing in the world right now, in most respects they're on an equal footing with other races. They have their own territory, their own lands, they have a god actively working to benefit them, etc. The problem is they acquired that land through military conquest, which naturally breeds a kind of resentment with the people that were run out of their lands.

That's not exactly a unique situation to the goblins tho. Plenty of lands in the OotS world have been overthrown and conquered. The Western Continent has the ownership of certain territories change frequently. So even in that respect, the goblins aren't at a real disadvantage.

The main issue facing the goblins right now is one of perception. While many of the "Player Character Races" would go to war with each other for various reasons, goblins are a larger target due to their perception as a "Monster Race" due to being created by, well, the God of Monsters. And to play devil's advocate, the goblins often play into those stereotypes. Their behavior has, at times, reinforced that notion of them as monsters in other people. And as long as that perception exists, Goblintopia will be a big target for the PC Races because they'd view it as a city under monster control that needs to be liberated.

I'm not someone that agrees with Durkon about the idea that the Humans, Dwarves, Elves and the like have to take responsibility for anything, nor would they be passing the buck if they didn't actively help the goblins. But they do want to help the goblins because they're now aware of the unfair situation they had and how, if it didn't justify the goblins actions, it at least helps explain them. No responsibility taking or buck passing necessary: Lawful Good characters want to help those in a situation.

What's honestly needed is a couple of things:

1) The gods have to acknowledge the Dark One as a legitimate god and not simply a useful solution to their problem. And by doing so, they have to get their followers to likewise acknowledge that goblins are a legitimate race with all the consideration due them. And as such, that many actions taken against the goblins were completely unjustified.

2) The Dark One and goblins have to acknowledge that, poor starting point or not, they are at least partially responsible for the current feelings of ill will. They cannot hold similar hatred for non-goblin races and expect those races to not hold on to hatred against them. Their needs to be a mutual acknowledgement of mistakes made on both sides, and efforts need to go forward.

3) Actual diplomacy needs to occur, with concessions being made on both sides. The goblins can keep Goblintopia: they won that fairly as any conquering army might. However, they will turn over all slaves back to Azure City, and reparations will be made to those displaced people in the form of supplies. As a sign of good faith, the goblins could help the displaced Azurites build a new city. While likely to cause tension initially, if the 12 Gods and the Dark One tell their followers to get along, they act of the two races working to build something together could help lessen tensions over time. Additional things like opening up trade opportunities, open travel routes, etc.

4) Along with this actual diplomacy, there needs a greater degree of communication. It's easy to sit in a city that's relatively isolated from other kingdoms surrounded by your own people and culture and be able to dehumanize (for lack of a better term) people that live far away from you. Whereas regular discussions with those people can re-humanize them, make you sympathetic towards them, etc.

A more tangible solution might be to set up new cities at each of the Gate locations. Even if the gods can bind the Snarl together (and we don't know if that'll be the final solution or not), those are still the biggest points of weakness within the world. Having each major kingdom be responsible for a gate levels the playing field, makes them all equally responsible for the welfare of the world. Along with that, monthly meetings between the rulers to foster cooperation between the kingdoms. Maybe have each meeting at a different kingdom, forcing members of each kingdom to experience each others cultures and learn to appreciate them. And make it clear that violations of these treaties will be frowned upon heavily by the gods. Maybe also have cultural exchange programs where people from different cities spend time learning about each culture. The more cynical rules could justify it as "keeping tabs" on each other, even while this would hopefully foster more understanding between the civilizations.

Maybe if the Snarl is bound, that could become a new universal holiday. The day all gods worked together to save the world. Call it the Harmony festival or something. And the goal there is that it's festivals held specifically in spots where different races can mingle and get to know each other. Maybe each nation sends some people to each other nation so that the people there get to experience the others cultures, learn their ways, get to talk with them, etc.

That's a lot of hypotheticals, but it all has to start with a single step. The goblins and PC races need to acknowledge that each other has the right to exist, that they deserve the respect any sentient being is owed, and that they cannot simply dismiss them as "monster" or "oppressor". They need to see each other as PEOPLE. And then, in an act that's more difficult, they have to not only accept it, but live it. But if they can manage that, then slowly, over time, they've all got a chance.

[Mechalich]

I think the best we can hope for here is that the gods redefine morality a bit. Redcloaks problem is that goblins are xp farms for PCs, right? Well why not just have each of the pantheons send a message to their followers along the lines of “hey, from now on, in any given situation where killing a member of your race is an evil act, so is killing a goblin. Adjust yourselves accordingly.”? Yeah it won’t solve everything, but it’s the only reasonable solution I can think of.

It's not a moral issue though. The issue is rather that, in the giant game of Civilization that essentially is the world of OOTS, the goblins were given a bad start compared to other races and they were created with parameters - short life span and high birth rate - that is not conductive to the maximization of power under the quasi-3.5e ruleset (it's not actually clear that this is true, which is part of the issue with this plotline). In some ways this a fundamental problem to running a fictional reality as if it's a 4x game. As many players of 4x's know it is quite common for victory to be won or lost in the first 1% of gameplay though this might not even become apparent for many, many hours.

Redcloak's central complaint is essentially 'we had to play this game from a bad start point with crappy racial traits! That's unfair!' And that's a reasonable thing to complain about (certainly most of us who play games of this nature tend to reload endlessly until we get a favorable starting circumstance).

The solution would be for the gods to make matters more equal, but Thor and Odin asserted in comic #1232 that the gods have a rule of 'no patching while the instance is running.' I find this problematic because it basically means that the gods are refusing to solve a problem they themselves caused.

[Edreyn]

Could Azurites and Goblin actually agree to both live in Azure City, and also have a unified government made of both races? The city is large and has enough resources for that. They could make peace, when neither side is actually losing the city.

What could convince them to do so? Well, as it happened in other games, for example Freespace 1 and 2, or Heroes series, or Warcraft 3 - they could unite against someone else. Maybe there would be a war with Snarl's agents, that can only be defeated together. And after victory they will agree to peace with everyone living together.

And Twelve Gods could accept Dark One in their pantheon and become Thirteen Gods, new official religion of Azuretopia\Goblizure.

I doubt it would work in real life, but the main idea of the comic is to show alternatives, right?

And that way, readers that are now divided to two "camps" would also all be satisfied.

[pearl jam]

And that way, readers that are now divided to two "camps" would also all be satisfied.

This might be the least believable part of your prediction.

[hungrycrow]

Could Azurites and Goblin actually agree to both live in Azure City, and also have a unified government made of both races? The city is large and has enough resources for that. They could make peace, when neither side is actually losing the city.

What could convince them to do so? Well, as it happened in other games, for example Freespace 1 and 2, or Heroes series, or Warcraft 3 - they could unite against someone else. Maybe there would be a war with Snarl's agents, that can only be defeated together. And after victory they will agree to peace with everyone living together.

And Twelve Gods could accept Dark One in their pantheon and become Thirteen Gods, new official religion of Azuretopia\Goblizure.

I doubt it would work in real life, but the main idea of the comic is to show alternatives, right?

And that way, readers that are now divided to two "camps" would also all be satisfied.

I would say no. Living side-by-side with the people that just killed your family and enslaved you less than a year ago is kind of a recipe for disaster. If the azurites make peace from their new spot in the elven lands, at least they won't be constantly poking at fresh wounds.

From a doylist perspective, i think the fact that Rich wrote a convenient way for the azurites to find new land means that they're never going back to Gobbotopia.

[The MunchKING]

It's still mostly green, which means plant life.

Or the continents are made of copper which has turned green after years of exposure!