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-
2021-04-22, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
Welcome to Optimization Stadium, the field of combat for our storied competition. Here the contestants will be transmuting lead into gold as we showcase the overlooked, underused, weird, wild, and wonky prestige classes.
Squeaking out a win by popular demand is our old reference to an Elvis Costello song (at least that's what it always reminds me of). Turn to Masters of the Wild and whip out your meerschaum pipe, this round we're cooking with Watch Detective!
Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D 3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".
Contestants: You will need to present a full 20-level build for your entry. Also required is a rundown of how your build works at lower levels, to demonstrate that it is a functional character that could be played from 1-20 in a real game. Traditionally contestants give "snapshots" of tactics and abilities at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20. The purpose of these snapshots is not just to showcase your use of the SI, it is to demonstrate that your character is playable at every level. For this reason, it's still worth giving a snapshot before you have entered the SI.
Menu: The "special ingredient" can be drawn from any legal source. Originally, the plan was to mostly use Core and Completes, but that was a long time ago, and we've started running out of interesting classes to use if we restrict ourselves to those.
32 point-buy is the presumed creation method.
If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.
Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Here's a guide to most of what has and hasn't been updated. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden. Please refrain from using Taint unless it's necessary for the Secret Ingredient.
NB: Official Errata and 3.5 updates to 3.0 content are considered valid regardless of whether their sources would otherwise be legal. This includes the 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon Magazine, and the 3.5 updates of Dragonlance Campaign Setting content given in later third party Dragonlance books.
Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 13:59 GMT on Sunday May 9th, 2021 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, The Viscount. You may submit build by email if it is too large for a single PM. Please put the name of your build in the subject line of your PM. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 13:59 GMT on Sunday May 23rd, 2021 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.
Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is considered in poor taste, and judges are asked to take a dim view of this option, taking it into account while grading. Other things that will cause penalties here are excessive multi-classing, and classes that don't fit the concept.Please note the following: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using conflicting setting material may result in a penalty to Elegance at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not. In that same vein, drawing solely from the Core 3 (and the d20 SRD) should not be punished for lacking Originality.Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!
Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.SpoilerNAME OF ENTRY
Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features 1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 7th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 8th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 9th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 10th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 11th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 12th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 13th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 14th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 15th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 16th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 17th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 18th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 19th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 20th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
Code immediately below (spoiler).Spoiler[table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]Level[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class[/B][/th]
[th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
[th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
[th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
[th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
[th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)SpoilerSpells per Day/Spells Known
Code immediately below (spoiler)Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st - - - - - - - - - - 2nd - - - - - - - - - - 3rd - - - - - - - - - - 4th - - - - - - - - - - 5th - - - - - - - - - - 6th - - - - - - - - - - 7th - - - - - - - - - - 8th - - - - - - - - - - 9th - - - - - - - - - - 10th - - - - - - - - - - 11th - - - - - - - - - - 12th - - - - - - - - - - 13th - - - - - - - - - - 14th - - - - - - - - - - 15th - - - - - - - - - - 16th - - - - - - - - - - 17th - - - - - - - - - - 18th - - - - - - - - - - 19th - - - - - - - - - - 20th - - - - - - - - - - Spoiler[B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
[table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
[tr]
[th][B]Level[/B][/th]
[th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
[th][B]1st[/B][/th]
[th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
[th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
[th][B]4th[/B][/th]
[th][B]5th[/B][/th]
[th][B]6th[/B][/th]
[th][B]7th[/B][/th]
[th][B]8th[/B][/th]
[th][B]9th[/B][/th]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.
So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!
We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM. If there are no votes, Honorable Mention will go to the chairman's favorite build.
Past Competitions
Courtesy of some wonderful volunteers, there is a handy-dandy spreadsheet guide to all previous builds here. PM if you'd like to contribute to the spreadsheet for access.
Spoiler: The First HundredIron Chef I: Entropomancer
Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
Iron Chef V: War Chanter
Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
Iron Chef XII: War Mind
Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante
Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song
Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master
Iron Chef XVI: Assassin
Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante
Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter
Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate
Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion
Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker
Iron Chef XXII: Dervish
Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader
Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier
Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer
Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender
Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist
Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier
Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel
Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara
Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator
Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple
Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver
Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin
Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar
Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master
Iron Chef XXXIX: Renegade Mastermaker
Iron Chef XL: Nightsong Infiltrator
Iron Chef XLI: Geomancer
Iron Chef XLII: Shadowblade
Iron Chef XLIII: Bladesinger
Iron Chef XLIV: Urban Soul
Iron Chef XLV: Talon of Tiamat
Iron Chef XLVI: Cipher Adept
Iron Chef XLVII: Cold Iron Warrior
Iron Chef XLVIII: Shadow Sun Ninja
Iron Chef XLIX: Thrall of Orcus
Iron Chef L: Corrupt Avenger
Iron Chef LI: Black Flame Zealot
Iron Chef LII: Anointed Knight
Iron Chef LIII: Zerth Cenobite
Iron Chef LIV: Osteomancer
Iron Chef LV: Mountebank
Iron Chef LVI: Dwarven Defender
Iron Chef LVII: Darkrunner
Iron Chef LVIII: Spellsword
Iron Chef LIX: Fleet Runner of Ehlonna
Iron Chef LX: Lasher
Iron Chef LX(II): Acolyte of the Ego
Iron Chef LXII: Dungeon Lord
Iron Chef LXIII: Witchborn Binder
Iron Chef LXIV: Slime Lord
Iron Chef LXV: Thunder Guide
Iron Chef LXVI: Dwarven Chanter
Irogn Chef LXVII: Gnome Giant Slayer
Iron Chef LXVIII: Fang of Lolth
Iron Chef LXIX: Shiba Protector
Iron Chef LXX: Order of the Bow Initiate
Iron Chef LXXI: Silver Key
Iron Chef LXXII: Spellfire Channeler
Iron Chef LXXIII: Flux Adept
Iron Chef LXXIV: Crinti Shadow Marauder
Iron Chef LXXV: Thief of Life
Iron Chef LXXVI: Legacy Champion
Iron Chef LXXVII: Great Rift Skyguard
Iron Chef LXVIII: Risen Martyr
Iron Chef LXXIX: Black Blood Hunter
Iron Chef LXXX: Master of Many Forms
Iron Chef LXXXI: Serene Guardian
Iron Chef LXXXII: Elocator
Iron Chef LXXXIII: Winterhaunt of Iboorighu
Iron Chef LXXXIV: Waverider
Iron Chef LXXXV: Astral Dancer
Iron Chef LXXXVI: Twisted Lord
Iron Chef LXXXVII: Shadowsmith
Iron Chef LXXXVIII: Arboreal Guardian
Iron Chef LXXXIX: Thrall of Demogorgon
Iron Chef XC: Bloodstorm Blade
Iron Chef XCI: Fatemaker
Iron Chef XCII: Eye of the Xanathar
Iron Chef XCIII: Hoardstealer
Iron Chef XCIV: Doomlord
Iron Chef XCV: Gnomish Artificer
Iron Chef XCVI: Oozemaster
Iron Chef XCVII: Aerial Avenger
Iron Chef XCVIII: Visionary Seeker
Iron Chef XCIX: Life Eater
Iron Chef C: Swiftblade
Iron Chef CI: Night Mask Deathbringer
Iron Chef CII: Blade Dancer
Iron Chef CIII: Psion Uncarnate
Iron Chef CIV: Atavist
Iron Chev CV: Primeval
Iron Chef CVI: Disciple of Mammon
Iron Chef CVII: Insidious Corruptor
Iron Chef CVIII: Crimson Scourge
Iron Chef CIX: Tattooed Monk
Iron Chef CX: Rage MageKolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
Awards
-
2021-04-22, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
FAQ:
Q: What's this even about?
A: I'm glad you asked, actually...
Q: Is Dragon Compendium Allowed?
A: Yes (as well as its Errata), but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.
Q: What about 3.0 materials?
A: 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.
Q: Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources?
A: The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.
Q: What about online sources in general?
A: If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.
Q: Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. In a similar vein, LA buyoff and fractional BAB are also disallowed. Bloodlines and the Retraining options presented in the PHB2 are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.
Q: What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean?
A: As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.
Q: What's the minimum score in a category?
A: Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is mechanically illegal by the RAW, the judge may give the build a score of 0 in Elegance, and proceed to judge the entry as if the offending material was not included. Failing to meet a special requirement for a prestige class does not merit a 0, but may qualify for a penalty, at the judge's discretion. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.
Q: Creatures and templates with no listed LA are playable, right?
A: No. No listed LA is equivalent to LA: -. It is not suitable for PCs. If you use it, expect judges to look extremely disfavorably on it.
Q: So what's the deal with equipment, anyway?
A: There is no official policy on how much equipment you should list. Historically, judges have frowned upon "item dependent" builds, but unfortunately the definition of that has been applied to mean anything from builds that don't function if you remove one very specific item, to builds that so much as mention a particular weapon. Builds that don't list gear should be assumed to buy useful generics - items to boost their primary stats, cloaks of resistance, appropriate magical weapons and armor, and so forth. If a build would find particular items useful, they should be listed, but experience suggests that the more generic you keep them, the more favorably judges are likely to look upon them, as a build being shut down because the Thundering Bagpipes of Urist McTrumpetbritches were unavailable is considered a weakness. Similarly, requiring items in order to be able to qualify for things tends to be frowned upon.
Q: Do you have any other rules and guidelines on how to judge?
A: We do, actually, designed to try and avoid unpleasantness we've encountered in past contests. The things we've come up with to avoid repeating this are given below.
SpoilerOne Mistake, One Penalty
Spoiler: What does this mean?
Judges are only allowed to penalise once for a given mistake. If someone messes up their skills and doesn't qualify for a PrC, ding them as hard as you like. Once. In one category. You don't then get to declare that because they didn't qualify for that PrC, they don't get those levels, and thus don't qualify for anything else. If Ranger is a common ingredient, ding them for Originality. Once. Don't also take off points for Two-Weapon-Fighting being a common ingredient.
Non-exhaustive list of examples:
Skills
Allowed:
- Giving a penalty for miscalculating the number of skill points gained
- Giving a penalty for not having enough ranks to meet a prerequisite
- Increasing the harshness of a skill miscalculation penalty if it affects critical skills including prereqs
Not allowed:
- Giving separate penalties for miscalculating skill points and for non-qualification where the non-qualification is solely caused by the miscalculation
Prereqs
Allowed:
- Giving a penalty for not meeting prereqs
- Scaling the penalty depending on how important the item that the build failed to qualify for is
- Giving minimum score in UotSI for not qualifying for the SI
- Not giving credit for (note: not the same as penalising for) tactics using feats or classes other than the SI that were not qualified for (but see below)
Not Allowed:
- "Cascading" failures to qualify - declaring that because a build doesn't qualify for a feat, for example, it also doesn't qualify for anything using that feat as a prereq
- Treating a build as having fewer levels than it does because of FtQ for classes
Other general things that are no longer allowed:
- Penalizing because someone has chosen to build a tribute to an existing creative work
- Deciding that a backstory has not met a fluff prerequisite well enough, or because its method of meeting it is "unrealistic". You may penalize if a fluff prereq is not addressed at all, but not for how well it is addressed.
- Please don't base your scores off the scores of another judge.
Note that these are protections, not licenses. Deliberately taking a feat that you know you don't qualify for hoping to just suck up the judging penalty for a feat that you couldn't normally take is not okay, and may lead to your build being disqualified.
Q: Do you have any contest house rules or clarifications to ambiguous rules?
A: Some that have come up in previous contests and needed answers to:
- All creatures are proficient with any natural weapons they may have or acquire.
- Bonus feats that are granted even if you do not meet the prerequisites do not require you to meet the prerequisites in order to use.
- Able Learner's benefit applies to the level you take it.
- Weapons from soulmelds are considered to be magic weapons.
- Unarmed Swordsage grants Improved Unarmed Strike at level 1.
- Not finishing Savage Progression is subject to a penalty to Elegance
- One dispute per entry. Submit disputes by PM to the Chair.
- Ghostwalk ghost is banned
- Gold, silver, and bronze are awarded regardless of ties (e.g., 2 silvers does not preclude bronze)
- Spelltouched feats are legal and can be taken just like any other feat when you meet the prerequisites and have the feat slot available.
Q: Can I submit more than one entry?
A: You may submit up to two entries into a given competition.
Q: Are we using 3.5 versions of things?
A: Yes. Delete Innuendo from the skill list. Replace Intuit Direction with Survival. Delete the Listen-Read Lips pair from skill synergy. The class grants the Combat Expertise feat at level 2 instead of Expertise.Last edited by The Viscount; 2021-04-22 at 08:48 PM.
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-04-22, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
Oh boy, the class that (IIRC) is actually legally incapable of doing its job.
Spoiler: Full CodeProof, not suspicion, is the only evidence that matters. A suspect may not be charged with a crime until unimpeachable evidence of his or her involvement has been uncovered, or a confession has been obtained.
Unnecessary violence in the apprehension of a suspected criminal is not permitted. A suspect should be brought to justice rather than killed whenever possible.
Seizure of a suspect's goods is not permitted, unless such constitute evidence to be used in prosecuting that suspect or another.
Evidence gained by detection magic, psionic powers, or other magical or supernatural means must be backed up with either physical proof or uncoerced confession. Only concrete forms of evidence satisfy all members of a community.
Interrogation of a suspect is not permitted unless he or she consents or is charged with a crime.
Detention of a person suspected of a crime is not permitted unless a specific charge has been made.
Protection of the innocent takes precedence over apprehension of a suspected criminal.
A watch detective may not knowingly commit crimes.
Violation of these codes may result in the release of a suspect and/or the dismissal of the watch detective.The watch detective must honor the Rule of Evidence (see sidebar). If he abandons this code, he loses all special abilities of the prestige class until he retrains for six months under a local authority.
Okay, so:
Spoiler: This Gets StupidProof, not suspicion, is the only evidence that matters. A suspect may not be charged with a crime until unimpeachable evidence of his or her involvement has been uncovered, or a confession has been obtained.
Evidence gained by detection magic, psionic powers, or other magical or supernatural means must be backed up with either physical proof or uncoerced confession. Only concrete forms of evidence satisfy all members of a community.
Seizure of a suspect's goods is not permitted, unless such constitute evidence to be used in prosecuting that suspect or another.
4) Okay, so you can only seize a suspect's goods if you know for a fact that they're evidence instead of just stuff. However, this allowance only applies to a suspect's goods, so if the thing you know is evidence belongs to somebody who isn't a suspect, you're not allowed to take it from them legally. I guess you could steal it...
A watch detective may not knowingly commit crimes.
Interrogation of a suspect is not permitted unless he or she consents or is charged with a crime.
Detention of a person suspected of a crime is not permitted unless a specific charge has been made.
Evidence gained by detection magic, psionic powers, or other magical or supernatural means must be backed up with either physical proof or uncoerced confession. Only concrete forms of evidence satisfy all members of a community.
Violation of these codes may result in the release of a suspect and/or the dismissal of the watch detective.
TL;DR the ways to charge somebody with a crime are:
1) Locate physical evidence of the suspect's involvement in the crime, which must be owned by the suspect in question and not by anybody else.
2) Get the suspect to give an uncoerced confession, for whatever counts as "uncoerced".
Any other path to charging somebody breaks a rule and results in the suspect walking free, and maybe you having to turn in your badge for 6 months.Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-04-22 at 08:38 PM.
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2021-04-22, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
It's legally incapable of doing more than its job.
I'm in to cook.I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
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2021-04-23, 12:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
I've been waiting for this SI for a while, l ready have a stub in mind; will do my best to enter.
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2021-04-23, 02:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
Oh yes! That is a good SI! The kind of character that would start worshipping Ghulurak on its own if you as much as mention this name.
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
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2021-04-23, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
I've had an idea percolating for this one for a while. Down to cook.
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SpoilerSir Driscoll Conia - Silver - IC L
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Sai-don, Knight of the Tide - Bronze - IC LXXXIV
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2021-04-23, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
I think there's probably a way to rules-lawyer one's way around at least some of that. You can't seize or steal evidence from someone who isn't a suspect (although if you have multiple suspects, you can seize anything that might be evidence from any of them, since it says "to be used in prosecuting that suspect or another"), but you can just persuade them to give it to you. And given that "unimpeachable" isn't really defined anywhere, you don't have to have *conclusive* evidence before you charge someone (at which point you can then detain them and interrogate them to get your confession), just evidence of some sort. (Which could, in theory, even be magically-derived evidence; you'll need to support that with physical evidence or a confession eventually, but do you need to do so before charging them? Doesn't say. Charging someone with a crime isn't the same thing as actually convicting them of it.)
Also, depending on what counts as a crime in the local jurisdiction, you might very well be legally allowed to just take anything you think is 'evidence' and keep it for as long as you like. The Detective's Code explicitly prohibits 'civil forfeiture' levels of shenanigans in its 'you can't just straight-up steal everything a suspect owns' clause, but if the local laws allow the cops to just straight-up steal everything you own without it being a 'crime', the Detective is then allowed to straight-up steal whatever they like from non-suspects.
Also also... nothing in the Code requires you to tell the suspect what the Code's rules are. Much like in real life, the Detective is not prohibited from lying in order to get a suspect to 'consent' to being interrogated, or from lying to a suspect and saying he already has evidence and they might as well just confess, or from lying that the suspect can't leave until he signs this "paperwork" ("confession" - 'he signed it of his own free will! and you can't prove we lied to him about what he was signing' is a real-life police tactic, after all).
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2021-04-23, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
Can you imagine if it worked like this in the real world? Police officer abuses their power, and immediately their badge and gun vanish into thin air. I wonder how many of them could last a week.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
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2021-04-23, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
The Detective literally has a class feature for that, which improves other's Bluff bonus if the suspect has been intimidated, obviously meant to be used during interrogations as "good cop, bad cop".
Also, I'm not sure. The detective has a class feature which makes it "considered armed when disarming". But with what? A light weapon, one-handed and two-handed give different bonuses. You could say the most RAW approach would be that you do not gain any other bonus, since the text gives a bonus with two-handed, and a malus with light weapon. But then what happens if you are wielding a light weapon, do you have a worse bonus than disarming bare-handed? And what about "Grabbing an item", which is in the "Disarming" paragraphe? You are supposed to only be able to do so unarmed. So is the detective allowed to do so?Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
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2021-04-23, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
Oh wow... I have a kernel of an idea I thought of when discussing this as a potential SI a year or more ago (was that with Swiftblade?). I've been waiting for this one.
But the next few weeks are also the busiest time of the year for me (I'm a professor, and grades for the semester are due a few days after the due date for submissions; there is a lot of grading to do between now and then).
I'll start trying to work on turning that kernel of an idea into a fleshed out character and story soon. Maybe if I don't procrastinate playing with alternative options, and just commit to an idea and build it out, I'll be able to pull this off. It will be fun to try.
But yeah, I think we are going to have to run a few hypotheticals around, and establish a few precedents and case law to clarify how the rules of evidence work in practice.Spoiler: Avatar & Iron Chef AwardsAwesome Dragonfire Bard Avatar by Oneris. A detailed version is here.
Iron Chef awards:
IC C Swiftblade: Honorable Mention for Pahika Kanikani, the Wardancer
IC CII Blade Dancer: Silver for Hu Tiaowu, the Jungle Guardian
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2021-04-23, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
I might have something for this, it’s a bit boring in its current form but I can maybe spruce it up.
Some interesting stuff in those restrictions as wonky as they are. You CAN use magical methods to force a confession, you just need to get them to say those words or take the evidence they’re talking about without the magical methods later. A lot of ‘that won’t hold up in court’ situations pop up there that’s kinda fun to play with. Extralegal methods that aren’t strictly inherently illegal to obtain legal evidence are exactly the kind of Malicious Compliance I’d expect from a tired old d&d watchman who lives in a universe where even in core one of the heroes is maybe 50% guaranteed to be some kind of street thief or assassin.
All in all a fascinating prestige class that doesn’t offer all that much on first glance but takes you down a weirdly idealised view of what police work is like.
I’ll also note that it feels weird to me that the Policeman Class doesn’t have the restriction of you have to be Lawful, it instead demands only that you’re not Evil to get into it.OI YOU! Join this one Discord where people talk 3.5 stuff! Also chicken infested related things! It’s pretty rad! https://discord.gg/6HmgXhUZ
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2021-04-23, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
I have an idea, but it's ugly. I'll do my best to turn it into a finished submission.
In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2021-04-23, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
I took a look at the 3.0 phb in case there was something else they were referencing, but there's no meaningful difference in the rules there. I suspect they may have been confusing this with the trip rules, for which being armed is better. You may ignore the clause "considered armed when disarming." If you really want to or it helps your character, go nuts.
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2021-04-25, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
I intend to judge this one.
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2021-04-25, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
Thanks for judging H_H_F_F!
I have a question about this class ability
Skill Synergy: At 4th level, the watch detective may choose one of the following skill combinations: Bluff-Gather Information, Bluff-Diplomacy, Climb-Move Silently, Diplomacy-Gather Information, Disguise-Gather Information, Gather Information-Sense Motive, Hide-Move Silently, Listen-Read Lips, Listen-Spot, Sense Motive-Spot, Spot-Disable Device, Spot-Open Lock, or Spot-Search. If he has at least 5 ranks in both of the selected skills, he gains a +2 synergy bonus on checks involving both.
And is this “synergy bonus” in addition to, stacking with, the regular —untyped— bonuses for skill synergy (e.g. that 5 ranks in Bluff grants to Diplomacy checks)?
Edit (to avoid double-posting).
Another question about “power”.
Is power exclusively combat/damage-dealing/encounter-winning ability? This class seems to have a goal of investigating crimes, knowing who committed a crime, and being able to prove it.
If a build was really really really good at the goal of the class, but merely capable/defensive/survivor as a combatant (would bring “the Watch” as backup for dangerous encounters when possible), is that a clear deficit in power?
Is being the most effective detective measured only in terms of UoSI?
it strikes me that a build oriented at social manipulation (diplomacy, gathering information, intimidation, sense motive, knowledges) could be an excellent Watch Detective while not being particularly “powerful” in the sense of god-controller or melee brute.
if you can know and prove the BBG committed the crime, and can reliably convince the BBG to surrender, and submit to justice, is that enough “power” to count?Last edited by Hiro Quester; 2021-04-25 at 11:30 AM.
Spoiler: Avatar & Iron Chef AwardsAwesome Dragonfire Bard Avatar by Oneris. A detailed version is here.
Iron Chef awards:
IC C Swiftblade: Honorable Mention for Pahika Kanikani, the Wardancer
IC CII Blade Dancer: Silver for Hu Tiaowu, the Jungle Guardian
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2021-04-25, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
Skill Synergy grants a bonus to checks when using either skill. For example, for a character who picks Hide-Move Silently, they gain a bonus on Hide checks and Move Silently checks. Because the check is a synergy bonus, it does stack with the untyped bonus from having 5 ranks as presented in the PHB.
As for power, this is in the judging territory, but for what it's worth, when I judged I used power as an overall "how good are you at what you do" and a measurement over multiple fields including, but not limited to combat.Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2021-04-25, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
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2021-04-28, 02:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
How goes the cooking, guys?
On an unrelated note, does anyone feel like judging the E6 competition?
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2021-04-28, 03:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
I have almost finished my first contribution, I just need to complete the commentary and I should be fine. I might cook something else, but I'm really not sure, with things piling on IRL.
If you really need another judge for E6, why not, but I'd rather not to, this is not a system I have mastered at all.Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
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2021-04-28, 04:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2021-04-28, 04:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
Good job already finishing an entry!
I empathize with your concerns, since I myself still feel somewhat uncomfortable judging E6. It's not really about system masyery to me ("low level 3.5 with bonus feats" was pretty easy to wrap my head around) but trying to judge power and originality in such a limited scope is challenging to me.
There's currently no judge to my knowledge - if you have the time and feel like it, you could give the current round a read and see if you feel comfortable judging.
Good luck, Thurbane!
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2021-04-28, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
I won’t be judging E6 for reasons that I hope are obvious. (But I really, really appreciate you trying to drum up interest!)
For watch detective, I have two ideas and they’re both deeply, deeply flawed. Basically I’ve got some reasonably interesting fluff that the class is remarkably bad about supporting mechanically.
This is definitely one of those ingredients where I’m really not expecting to get a good score, but getting in anything at all is an achievement.In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2021-04-28, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
Entry is finished and sent. (Sorry for spam Viscount)
IRL is catching up as well and I'm pretty happy with what I've managed to cook so far
Ty for judging !
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2021-04-29, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
I'm inspired, I think I'll partecipate, too. this tickles me
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2021-04-30, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
Submitted my build as well
Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
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2021-05-05, 01:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
How is it cooking everyone ?
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2021-05-05, 01:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXI
I sent my build, then realized I messed up :( teaches me that haste makes waste I suppose, but I was in the frentic energy mode!
It's personally funny because I have an injoke with my friends : I am facetiously permanently banned from the (real) kitchen, ever since that time I made water catch fire.
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2021-05-05, 02:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-05-05, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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