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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    That would be a counter, but it's the wrong counter if it's not what you actually believe in.
    I do believe that we're all organic machines and that realistically speaking free will doesn't exist. However, if we approach life at this level any discussion about morality kind of falls apart at the very base, not to mention how for a lot of people going through life thinking they have no free will is bad for their mental health. Also, you know, the fact that it's a headache to write all this while knowing that I write this because of my machinery reacting to internal and external stimuli.

    Either we acknowledge that free will isn't real in which case we might as well exclude ourselves from any discussion involving morality, or we maintain the illusion of free will at least in the context of morality-based discussions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    "We can't prove they had no choice, so we must assume they did have a choice" is good enough for a courtroom, but it still leaves the fundamental question open: you say we shouldn't dismiss it, but you have not said which system to evaluate it by.
    If we assume that we're maintaining the illusion of free will so morality remains a valid topic of discussion we're back at the level of 'What is Good and what is Evil', which is one of those topics people have been contending about for thousands of years. So I can't with confidence say which system it should be judged by, but I can say that most people here seem to be in agreement that massacring children is firmly Evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    We know for fact that an individual's choices are not detached from their nature. For example, your ability to form coherent sentences is reliant on you having a specific mutation of the FOX2P gene. So while you can say that we shouldn't assume habits and tendencies are in one's nature, you still have to deal with all those cases where they are and decide what moral worth, if any, to ascribe to them.

    Put differently, even if a specific story, like OotS, is not dealing particularly with problems of free will, to apply lessons of a story to real world you still need to address those problems.
    Yes, but we have no evidence that people are incapable of choosing whether to kill children or not, so if you declare that most people would only fail to kill children, under circumstances where they wouldn't suffer any consequences, because of laziness rather than moral objections... Then you are making a statement regarding people's morality, and one which most people would interpret as negative since to them it implies immorality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Why would Xykon being an unholy automaton not having free will defend any of their actions?
    Honestly that was just me thinking out loud, ignore that part.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Mariele View Post
    That's the most horrific point of view I've come across in a long time, and I'm completely serious.

    No. No. No. Very, very few, extremely disturbed, people would kill or hurt children if given the option without consequences. Even people who "don't like" kids don't want them harm, they just don't want to be around them. If I could do it without consequences, yes, I would massacre a number of criminals. I wouldn't massacre random adults. And I certainly wouldn't harm children, much less massacre them. The fact that you think that "a lot" of people would do it is nothing short of terrifying.

    And don't give me that "but you've never been in that situation so how could you knooooow" BS. I've done a lot of crap in my life, not all of it legal or moral, and I can tell you right now that I know I wouldn't hurt a kid any more than I would drop a bomb on a city if given the opportunity. If I can't know that much about myself, then I have no identity, period.
    Yes well there’s a major issue you’re ignoring
    Many RL instances of this have and and are happening and it’s due to seeing the enemy population as less human. You only have to check social media where people glorify bombing women and children from populations they hate.
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Personally I'd assume saying something and actually doing it are two completely different things.
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Personally I'd assume saying something and actually doing it are two completely different things.
    It’s called being a politician 🤣
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    I do believe that we're all organic machines and that realistically speaking free will doesn't exist. However, if we approach life at this level any discussion about morality kind of falls apart at the very base, not to mention how for a lot of people going through life thinking they have no free will is bad for their mental health. Also, you know, the fact that it's a headache to write all this while knowing that I write this because of my machinery reacting to internal and external stimuli.

    Either we acknowledge that free will isn't real in which case we might as well exclude ourselves from any discussion involving morality, or we maintain the illusion of free will at least in the context of morality-based discussions.
    Did you stop the consider the possibility of a moral theory that does not depend on free will?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong
    f we assume that we're maintaining the illusion of free will so morality remains a valid topic of discussion we're back at the level of 'What is Good and what is Evil', which is one of those topics people have been contending about for thousands of years. So I can't with confidence say which system it should be judged by, but I can say that most people here seem to be in agreement that massacring children is firmly Evil.
    Forgive me if I find this quite absurd. Again: there being no consensus does not mean there are no answers. Pick a side. Really, by believing in biomechanical determinism, you already have picked a side. You are practically only talking about momentarily entertaining another side that you already believe to be wrong. How much confidence do you need for making such a pick?

    Argument from popularity ("most people here" etc.) is a bad pick because most people have not established how they reached their conclusion. Untill they do, their agreement can only be considered superficial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong
    Yes, but we have no evidence that people are incapable of choosing whether to kill children or not, so if you declare that most people would only fail to kill children, under circumstances where they wouldn't suffer any consequences, because of laziness rather than moral objections... Then you are making a statement regarding people's morality, and one which most people would interpret as negative since to them it implies immorality.
    Untill the people who think laziness implies immorality explain why laziness would be immoral (rather than amoral, that is, lacking moral weight alltogether), they aren't engaging dps's actual opinion.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Untill the people who think laziness implies immorality explain why laziness would be immoral (rather than amoral, that is, lacking moral weight alltogether), they aren't engaging dps's actual opinion.
    I'm fairly certain they meant dps is implying that a lot of people are immoral but lazy (rather than lazy and therefore immoral). Or would you argue that the desire to kill children just because is highly moral?

  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Did you stop the consider the possibility of a moral theory that does not depend on free will?
    I did, but figured that creating a moral theory which doesn't require the possibility of choice (which is a function of free will) is going to take a bit longer than I'd want to spend on pointing out that 'killing children is removed from morality' is a rather dubious claim unless you're approaching it from a philosophical angle where you're basically asking "What is morality, exactly?".

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Forgive me if I find this quite absurd. Again: there being no consensus does not mean there are no answers. Pick a side. Really, by believing in biomechanical determinism, you already have picked a side. You are practically only talking about momentarily entertaining another side that you already believe to be wrong. How much confidence do you need for making such a pick?

    Argument from popularity ("most people here" etc.) is a bad pick because most people have not established how they reached their conclusion. Untill they do, their agreement can only be considered superficial.
    Wrong way around, I think there's no consensus because there are no answers. Any system you use for judging and dealing with the actions of people is going to be artificial, arbitrary, and based on what that particular group of people thinks is the closest to making sense as you can get when you start out from a flawed perspective.

    The reason why I'm entertaining the idea that free will, morality and the possibility of choice exist is because, as stated before, humans don't function so well without this illusion.

    Also the reason people haven't elaborated on why they believe massacring children is immoral is because to them it's like explaining why you need to open a door before you can step through the doorframe (a solid, steel door that can't be broken down by any tools available to you and which leads to an indestructible chamber with the doorframe being the only access point).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Untill the people who think laziness implies immorality explain why laziness would be immoral (rather than amoral, that is, lacking moral weight alltogether), they aren't engaging dps's actual opinion.
    As pointed out by Meta, you're seeing this the wrong way around. The laziness isn't what implies immorality, the fact that laziness would be the only thing stopping them is what implies immorality because it would mean they don't have the morality required to consider massacring children wrong and thus not something they'd want to do, regardless of how lazy they are.

    That said I'm not really interested in having a prolonged discussion about this. dps made a statement that they believe only laziness would prevent people from massacring children if the people themselves suffered no consequences, and the majority of people who bothered to reply to that have made it clear that they disagree on the grounds that they would consider such an act highly immoral, too immoral for them to believe that the majority of people would be okay with it (with only laziness preventing them performing such an act). If you want to argue that dps's statement had nothing to do with morality that's up to you, but I think it's a flawed interpretation of how people work.

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I'm fairly certain they meant dps is implying that a lot of people are immoral but lazy (rather than lazy and therefore immoral). Or would you argue that the desire to kill children just because is highly moral?
    Why would I? Nobody was talking about desire to kill children just because.

    You're equating "I didn't kill a child because there was nothing in it for me" with "I desire to kill children but not right now".

    You're assuming that in a situation where there are no negative personal consequences to killing a baby, what would stop most people is moral objection to killing babies, and not the non-moral reason of there being no positive personal consequences to it.

    The actual implication of immorality is in the bombing, industry and prison experiment tangents, since it has been empirically shown that it's fairly easy to make people break supposedly obvious morals like "killing children is wrong". Suggesting that when most people say stuff like "killing children is wrong", it's a socially accepted platitude with little conviction behind it.

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Suggesting that when most people say stuff like "killing children is wrong", it's a socially accepted platitude with little conviction behind it.
    To be fair, I believe there is a true conviction behind it.

    I also believe human brains are wired to be shockingly unaware of just how little their convictions matter to their own behavior.

    Like, there’s something in our brain that lies to us and says “I know my own identity and can reliably predict my own behavior”, and then simultaneously makes it literally impossible for us to be aware of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

    Which is why any conversation that starts “I would never do X because of my personal conviction Y” is always going to be a trainwreck.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-05-16 at 03:54 PM.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    To be fair, I believe there is a true conviction behind it.

    I also believe human brains are wired to be shockingly unaware of just how little their convictions matter to their own behavior.

    Like, there’s something in our brain that lies to us and says “I know my own identity and can reliably predict my own behavior”, and then simultaneously makes it literally impossible for us to be aware of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

    Which is why any conversation that starts “I would never do X because of my personal conviction Y” is always going to be a trainwreck.
    I'd say it isn't predicting our own behavior that's often the problem: it's explaining it. I can easily predict that I'm probably going to end up stressfully procrastinating (to a degree) over every paper, report and survey I'll ever write, but hell if I can explain why I never manage to make myself not do that.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    To be fair, I believe there is a true conviction behind it.

    I also believe human brains are wired to be shockingly unaware of just how little their convictions matter to their own behavior.

    Like, there’s something in our brain that lies to us and says “I know my own identity and can reliably predict my own behavior”, and then simultaneously makes it literally impossible for us to be aware of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

    Which is why any conversation that starts “I would never do X because of my personal conviction Y” is always going to be a trainwreck.
    Contrary to the aphorism, human hindsight is actually 200/20 (with foresight being 20/200)... we're far better at figuring out why what we did was the right thing after the fact, and being sure we'll do the right thing in the future, than we are at actually doing the right thing when the future becomes the present.

    We really are all storytellers who have to be the 1) Good Guy and 2) protagonist in control of the situation. Break down most of humans' deeply-embedded logical fallacies, and you'll find one or the other at the root.
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  12. - Top - End - #282
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    We really are all storytellers who have to be the 1) Good Guy and 2) protagonist in control of the situation. Break down most of humans' deeply-embedded logical fallacies, and you'll find one or the other at the root.
    I have a lot of doubt that this assertion is true, particularly party 2. I've lost been aware that I'm not in control of many of the situations in which I find myself.

  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    I have a lot of doubt that this assertion is true, particularly party 2. I've lost been aware that I'm not in control of many of the situations in which I find myself.
    Being aware of something, and genuinely accepting it as true on a gut level, are two very different animals.

    For one example, just-world fallacy: On a subconscious level, most of us revolt against the idea that when it comes down to it, we control practically nothing except our own actions. We make up stories in our heads about how because we wished it hard enough, this traffic light turned green a second earlier or that football player had a little more energy to score a touchdown. But it really gets ugly when we're confronted with someone who didn't deserve something awful happening to them, something beyond their control -- we start making up stories in our head about how they're responsible, they brought it on themselves, it wouldn't have happened if they dressed differently, and so on. Because if they truly didn't somehow cause it to happen... then maybe we have to admit it could happen to us, beyond our control.
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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    About morality/justice without free will:
    Whether peoples have free will is not that relevant IMO, as long as they have at least as much "choice" as a machine learning algorithms.
    AlphaZero has no free will, but if you add to the rules of chess some penalities for each capture, AlphaZero will eventually adjust toward "bloodless victories" rather "brutal wars" where pieces are sacrificed without second though.
    I think the capacity to change behaviour to follow moral guideline (and laws) taught to you is the most important part of whether or not morality/justice should apply to you.

    About killing children:
    There is a lot of reason why killing children is so universally considered as bad:
    + From evolution, we are wired to avoid killing children. It's due to multiple factors, for example the fact that as a a predator, killing the children of your preys is a very bad long term plan.
    + From practicality, the main quality of children is that they can be raised, and in a lot of situations, you have a net gain of a productive member of your society if you raise them rather than killing them.
    + From our culture, killing defenceless peoples that cause no threats is considered evil. This is one of the multiple ways our culture tries to compensate for the natural order of "the law of the strongest".

    I feel like the last point is the most important. We would probably not be raised to be so merciful about children if they included literal dragons threatening entire village (even when they're still children).

    I'd also note that practical morality rarely deals in absolute. We do consider normal to routinely exterminate population of (relatively) intelligent mammals that are a major inconvenience to our way of life, children included: I am thinking here of rats. (And we will thank the rat exterminator to be so kind to have come to help us that quickly). Obviously, comparison between goblinoids and rats is flimsy, as D&D goblinoids are usually significantly more sentient than IRL rats, when they are not downright "green humans" for most intends and purposes.

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    With the latest comic, Durkon says (paraphrasing): "Dwarves, humans, elves and halflings didn't ask to be given more. But at a certain point, don't we need to take responsibility for our part in a bad set up? Now that we know, don't we have to help change it?"
    What responsibility?
    If you aren't responsible for setting the system up, and you aren't actively trying to maintain it, then what responsibility could you have? Benefiting from a corrupt system is not your fault if you didn't set it up and aren't corrupt yourself, especially if you act to eliminate corruption when you see it.

    The only responsibility I see is what good people feel when they see unnecessary suffering or an injustice. You don't have to feel responsible for an injustice you had no part in creating and weren't even aware of, but if your thing is preventing injustice then yes, you should do what you can to correct one once you see one.

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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    If you aren't responsible for setting the system up, and you aren't actively trying to maintain it, then what responsibility could you have?.
    Every person in the whole world has only those responsibilities they choose to have.

    You may choose different responsibilities from someone else.

    But just because you decide you don’t agree with the responsibilities somebody else has chosen, that doesn’t mean they’ve chosen the wrong responsibilities.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Every person in the whole world has only those responsibilities they choose to have.
    I can't say I agree with that. Aren't prisons full of people who were forced by the state to accept responsibility for their actions? Against their personal preferences and choice?

    Edit: Belkar has been forced to accept responsibility for his actions very much against his will on several occasions.
    Last edited by Jason; 2021-05-17 at 11:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    About morality/justice without free will:
    Whether peoples have free will is not that relevant IMO, as long as they have at least as much "choice" as a machine learning algorithms.
    AlphaZero has no free will, but if you add to the rules of chess some penalities for each capture, AlphaZero will eventually adjust toward "bloodless victories" rather "brutal wars" where pieces are sacrificed without second though.
    You might be amused by the fact they're also making AlphaZero learn shōgi (Japanese chess). If you let your pieces be captured, they can be put back on the board against you later in any legal square.
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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Durkon subscribes to the moral philosophy that inaction when you are in an advantageous position, and thus can better help people is inherently imoral. So basically due to them having better access to stuff, it's their duty to help those that don't, in a sorta "With great powers come great responsability" way.

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    Remember that the origin of D&D was miniature war games, which means that the rules deal with combat, often between two human factions. What made D&D different was that it added something other than combat.
    As for fantasy races being evil, that is just another example of a common TV trope.
    Not only has gaming evolved beyond that, but so have comic books, fantasy novels, sci-fi, and other forms of fiction. Binary thinking is lazy and boring.
    I agree, origins are important. If you from a background where you have been recreating the Eastern Front in WWII, it's easy to see how alignment can be a team name rather than anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    If you aren't responsible for setting the system up, and you aren't actively trying to maintain it, then what responsibility could you have? Benefiting from a corrupt system is not your fault if you didn't set it up and aren't corrupt yourself, especially if you act to eliminate corruption when you see it.
    It isn't presented as a matter of being "at fault". If for example you personally see someone injured or in danger, and you're able to render aid, most people would consider you to have a responsibility to do so, even though you didn't create the situation. If you're lost in the wilderness and you packed extra water and the person lost with you didn't pack enough, it's responsible to share your water. People have varying ideas about how far interpersonal responsibility extends and what level of risk or cost you should be expected to assume in any given circumstance, but I'm sure we agree it falls somewhere above zero.

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    I have read none of the topic except the first post and I can 100% see that evolution in the comic from goblins as EXP machine to characters same as game developments approach to goblins.

    And I am thankful we didn't get the EXP machines that are Golarion Goblins which we are to take are 'cute' and 'funny' for some reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemarc View Post
    It isn't presented as a matter of being "at fault". If for example you personally see someone injured or in danger, and you're able to render aid, most people would consider you to have a responsibility to do so, even though you didn't create the situation. If you're lost in the wilderness and you packed extra water and the person lost with you didn't pack enough, it's responsible to share your water. People have varying ideas about how far interpersonal responsibility extends and what level of risk or cost you should be expected to assume in any given circumstance, but I'm sure we agree it falls somewhere above zero.
    Also worth noting that Roy & Durkon are explicitly Lawful Good, and their personal code won't be shared by everybody. There's a reason they're the two people having this conversation: because if Durkon tried to discuss it with Haley, she would have a different outlook on it. Maybe she'd still notice the problem, but not be interested in taking ownership of the solution.

    I feel this discussion fits perfectly with Roy & Durkon's alignments & personalities specifically, but it seems like people are taking it prescriptively, as the only opinion you're allowed to have about the subject or else you're a Bad Person.

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Vknight View Post
    And I am thankful we didn't get the EXP machines that are Golarion Goblins which we are to take are 'cute' and 'funny' for some reason.
    I'm just going to say that since goblins are a core PC race as of Pathfinder 2ed, I think that description of Golarion's goblins may be slightly outdated.

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I'm just going to say that since goblins are a core PC race as of Pathfinder 2ed, I think that description of Golarion's goblins may be slightly outdated.
    As far as I can tell, Pathfinder goblins became playable without losing much of their "dim-witted pyromaniac caricature" personality from 1E. It's a puzzling turn of events.
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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    As far as I can tell, Pathfinder goblins became playable without losing much of their "dim-witted pyromaniac caricature" personality from 1E. It's a puzzling turn of events.
    Goblins can have a little arson, as a treat.

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    As far as I can tell, Pathfinder goblins became playable without losing much of their "dim-witted pyromaniac caricature" personality from 1E. It's a puzzling turn of events.
    If by 1E you mean the first edition of D&D, I'm puzzled. My lack of memory absolutely doesn't disprove it, but I don't remember anything along those lines from back then.

    (I remember that characterization as being extremely evident in the Money: The Gathering cards and descriptive text, though. Well, at least the first waves -- I faded out of it not long after Fallen Empires.)
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    that seems like a you problem, not a bomb problem.
    The scientific term is bomblem

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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by Empiar93 View Post
    The scientific term is bomblem
    Which according to everyone's favorite (or most hated) gender-indeterminate elf, becomes oxymoronic in direct proportion to the size of the solution.
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    Default Re: Goblins and the evolution of Gaming Morality

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    If by 1E you mean the first edition of D&D, I'm puzzled. My lack of memory absolutely doesn't disprove it, but I don't remember anything along those lines from back then.

    (I remember that characterization as being extremely evident in the Money: The Gathering cards and descriptive text, though. Well, at least the first waves -- I faded out of it not long after Fallen Empires.)
    I think they meant PF 1e.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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