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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by urbanwolf View Post
    None; but I am not saying he is Lawful, not being Lawful dose not make you Chaotic.
    Oh, I fully agree. But if we can safely rule out Lawful, then we can make an easier case for either Neutral or Chaotic.
    Quote Originally Posted by urbanwolf View Post
    Minrah cannot be Chaotic by the laws of leadership and cohort. She could be Neutral good. From the SRD
    Assuming that A.) Durkon has theeadership feat, 2.) that she is a cohort, and iii.) that the strict RAW concerning leadership and cohort are both followed to the letter. Each of which is iffy in its own, much less together.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by urbanwolf View Post
    Minrah cannot be Chaotic by the laws of leadership and cohort. She could be Neutral good. From the SRD
    I doubt Minrah would be restricted by the rules of a cohort (unless the Giant said it?). She joined the party when Durkon was away, so she's probably not a cohort of Durkon. And she definitely does not behave as a cohort of anyone else. IMO, it's more likely to be just an additional PC to the group rule-wise.
    Last edited by MoiMagnus; 2021-04-25 at 03:21 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Let's come at it from the other way: if you leave aside the two-step rule from the D&D sourcebooks and judge him solely by what we see in-comic, what evidence do we have that Thor is Lawful?
    Little to nothing, I'll grant, but that doesn't really answer my question. I'm not asking why Thor isn't considered lawful, but why he's near-universally assumed to be chaotic. Honestly, I see him as Neutral Good myself, using or finessing rules as needed to achieve altruistic ends, but the point is that we're a long way from conclusive evidence one way or another, and yet the question is often treated as if it has a conclusive answer.

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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Not that I know of. The closest to that is The Giant saying that OOTS Thor is not required to match D&D Thor or Nordic Legends Thor.
    Oh, huh. Guess I misremembered.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Thor to Minrah:

    "You do you."

    Absolute proof that both Thor and Minrah are Chaotic. Support for individualism over societal expectations is what Chaotic is all about. If Thor were Neutral he would have said "I forgive your transgressions," as opposed to his implication that they simply didn't matter.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Those discussions do have a way of highlighting how incredibly vague and purposeless the law/chaos axis is.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Those discussions do have a way of highlighting how incredibly vague and purposeless the law/chaos axis is.
    It worked better when there wasn't a two axis model. Just saying.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Possibly because Thor doesn't favor Chaotic over Lawful or Neutral. He may be Chaotic Good without especially championing it as a favored alignment; in so many words, he doesn't care what else you are, as long as you're Good. (In the same way that Loki, in his recent appearances, hasn't seemed especially Evil, even though by SRD he is Chaotic Evil. Loki seems more concerned with Chaos than Evil to me.)

    Thor's recent, less-Chaotic seeming behavior can be chalked up to A) Characterization Marches On, and B) the fate of the world is at stake, so he's been forced to stop getting hammered on giant steins of beer and take things seriously for a change. Once the world is saved, he'll be the first to reach for a big, big drink.
    Very much this. Just because a god is a certain alignment doesn't mean they are a champion of that alignment. The alignment may simply be a good fit for their means and goals.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    While there's a part of me who wants to think Thor is Neutral to be closer to Durkon's stated alignment, I have to agree that all his actions we've seen seem far more Chaotic than anything else. He bends rules whenever he wants to help his cause. He avoids giving orders to Durkon before he's sure it's what he wants. He seems entirely cool with whatever Micah was talking about, in a very "I'm not gonna let technicalities stand in my way." way. Add that to his early, obviously chaotic appearances, and I say the evidence is pretty strong.

    Of course, as others are saying, alignment charts are silly and worrying about them too much is gonna drive you crazy.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    He just seems Chaotic. His whole tal about the God rules, and his willingness to break them the instant he gets a small excuse, gives off the vibe of "Chaotic Good person accepting the rules are necessary, but not liking it". After all, if a Lawful Good can acknowledge when a law is bad, it logically implies the converse, that a Chaotic Good can acknowledge when a law is good.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    I doubt Minrah would be restricted by the rules of a cohort (unless the Giant said it?). She joined the party when Durkon was away, so she's probably not a cohort of Durkon. And she definitely does not behave as a cohort of anyone else. IMO, it's more likely to be just an additional PC to the group rule-wise.
    The tv tropes page and the level fourm post both call her a cohort, I think the Giant said it in the commentary for Utterly Dwarfed.



    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Thor to Minrah:

    "You do you."

    Absolute proof that both Thor and Minrah are Chaotic. Support for individualism over societal expectations is what Chaotic is all about. If Thor were Neutral he would have said "I forgive your transgressions," as opposed to his implication that they simply didn't matter.
    What Thor says would not prove anything about Minrah. I would not call it absolute proof either. It seems like a very Lawful way to look at Chaos. We can ascertain that you do you is not freedom to do anything. Thor would not be okay if she wanted to commit evil actions, or something that would cause someone else to suffer. Whatever Minrah was worried about is not something Thor has made taboo.(chaotic, Neutral and Lawful gods can all ban things) From Dwarfs being often Lawful good in the MM and from how open Ma Thundershield was we can guess it is not sexuality. The dwarfs seem to be miles ahead of earth humans on that front.

    I don't think it is something that will come out in the story. It is better if it can be whatever little or major thing we worry about. like saving nail clippings or writing friendfiction. Not something wrong or illegal, but you don't want the world to know.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by urbanwolf View Post
    Minrah cannot be Chaotic by the laws of leadership and cohort. She could be Neutral good. From the SRD
    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    I doubt Minrah would be restricted by the rules of a cohort (unless the Giant said it?). She joined the party when Durkon was away, so she's probably not a cohort of Durkon. And she definitely does not behave as a cohort of anyone else. IMO, it's more likely to be just an additional PC to the group rule-wise.
    Quote Originally Posted by urbanwolf View Post
    The tv tropes page and the level fourm post both call her a cohort, I think the Giant said it in the commentary for Utterly Dwarfed.
    The exact comment on Minrah in the Utterly Dwarfed commentary is:

    It would be wrong to say she’ll be a full-fledged member of the party, though; she’s more like Durkon’s cohort, to use a game term.
    I don't think she'll be restricted to the rules of a cohort, because the Giant is pretty clear he doesn't strictly follow the rules if that doesn't make for a better story. (And in this commentary he seems to be using "cohort" more descriptively than technically, anyway.)

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    I can't see Minrah as anything but lawful good. Where do you get the chaotic thing from?
    Last edited by Precure; 2021-05-04 at 02:18 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Personally, I just find the idea of a chaotic Thor creating the super lawful and honor bound dwarven society to be funny. That's enough reason for me.

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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Because it's funny and I like the idea.

    Also, he used a lightning bolt to kill a bunch of trees... by hitting them with the sonic boom.

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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Amongst other things, his souls go to Valhalla which - per Word of Giant - is designed to turn every soul there into a perfect battery of CG-ness. One would think that a Lawful god would want his souls less chaotic.

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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirggzmb View Post
    Personally, I just find the idea of a chaotic Thor creating the super lawful and honor bound dwarven society to be funny. That's enough reason for me.
    So does Loki, and that's why it happened. Why do you think Loki pitched this bet to Hel in the first place? He managed to force Thor into creating a hyper-lawful society for his precious chosen people, AND teach his kid a lesson in humility!

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    I can't see Minrah as anything but lawful good. Where do you get the chaotic thing from?
    Because everything we've seen about her personality and he choices she makes shows she defies societal and cultural expectations in favor of her personal beliefs about what's right, and she encourages others to do the same?

    Seriously, I don't understand how anyone can see her as a lawful character once you get away from the "Dwarves must be default Lawful" thing.
    Some people think that Chaotic Neutral is the alignment of the insane, but the enlightened know that Chaotic Neutral is the only alignment without illusions of sanity.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I don't think there is hard evidence for his alignment at all.
    Good is as far as I can assess, but which flavor of that is unclear and to me mostly irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yirggzmb View Post
    Personally, I just find the idea of a chaotic Thor creating the super lawful and honor bound dwarven society to be funny. That's enough reason for me.
    Given that the strip began as a vehicle for jokes, it's all the reason needed.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by PontificatusRex View Post
    Because everything we've seen about her personality and he choices she makes shows she defies societal and cultural expectations in favor of her personal beliefs about what's right, and she encourages others to do the same?
    Where does that come from?

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    Where does that come from?
    This:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1194.html
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-05-05 at 04:40 PM.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    That's a very exaggerated take away from that pep talk.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    That's a very exaggerated take away from that pep talk.
    Yeah, that's a "Be true to yourself speech" which is not really alignment specific. As she has even unintentionally referenced, she only knows Belkar after he started faking his character growth. She's not defying social and cultural expectations, she's defying people's opinion of her which is an entirely different thing.

    If Minrah came from a place where everyone in her clan was expected to be guards and it's a big deal if they aren't, that's defying expectations. But that's not what is happening. It sounds like people told her "Hey, you don't really seem cut out to be a cleric", which is entirely different.
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by urbanwolf View Post
    It seem that a lot of the form and the tv tropes page seems to run on the idea that Thor is GC.

    In the comic their dose not seen to be any prove that he is chaotic, and a big piece of evidance say he cannot be chaotic. He empowers Lawful clerics. A cleric cannot be two spaces away from the diety that they worship.
    As the how a Chaotic Good Deity can patron Lawful Good Characters has been fairly well handled, let me help you with the best answer for why Thor is Chaotic by his very nature.

    Thor is the embodiment of the power and behavior of the Weather (and Storms most specifically), and there is no order, only chaos, in how the weather behaves.

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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

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    Last edited by Darth Paul; 2021-05-12 at 11:35 PM.
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    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    To answer the question, I simply direct your attention to the last panel of #201. I'm not going to bother linking it, if you care enough to look, you can access it via the archive.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    I can't see Minrah as anything but lawful good. Where do you get the chaotic thing from?
    Where do you get the lawful thing?

    Her plan to hide, opening the doors to make a "double bluff" isn't something very lawful, that's something totally "rogue", Haley's territory. Durkon was going to just hide and nothing more, couse lawful thinks "simpler" in that kind of matters.

    Minrah is chaotic good or neutral good.

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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Where do you get the lawful thing?

    Her plan to hide, opening the doors to make a "double bluff" isn't something very lawful, that's something totally "rogue", Haley's territory. Durkon was going to just hide and nothing more, couse lawful thinks "simpler" in that kind of matters.

    Minrah is chaotic good or neutral good.
    Why shouldn't a lawful person try to bluff and engage in deception when engaging an enemy they can't possibly hope to survive against in direct confrontation? That's not "chaotic", that's just smart.
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reboot View Post
    Amongst other things, his souls go to Valhalla which - per Word of Giant - is designed to turn every soul there into a perfect battery of CG-ness. One would think that a Lawful god would want his souls less chaotic.
    Valhalla is also Odin hall, Just cause he lives with his dad is no reason he has to be his fathers alignment, and Odin is the god of frenzy (amongst other things).
    Also again I am not saying that Thor is Lawful. I am strong on team Neutral.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shoelessgdowar View Post
    As the how a Chaotic Good Deity can patron Lawful Good Characters has been fairly well handled, let me help you with the best answer for why Thor is Chaotic by his very nature.

    Thor is the embodiment of the power and behavior of the Weather (and Storms most specifically), and there is no order, only chaos, in how the weather behaves.
    Weather has an order to how it works.

    Weather would be a strong pull towards neutral. Nature is a neutral force. Druids need to be one step of neutral and animals are true neutral( or unaligned).

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    Why shouldn't a lawful person try to bluff and engage in deception when engaging an enemy they can't possibly hope to survive against in direct confrontation? That's not "chaotic", that's just smart.
    Agreed, also we saw a Lawful person use a double bluff in the comic. Redcloak with the Xykon shell game.
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  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: Why dose the forum seem to think Thor is CG?

    I always thought Thor being CG/NG-leaning-CG was just too heavily implied by the way he acts basically all the time except in time critical or very serious situations, his advice to his clerics, and the fact that Hel was completely blindsided and outraged at the fact that he went behind her back and built an entire society of honorbound lawful fanatics just to stymie the curse he was tricked into inflicting on them
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