Killing Tiamat inside a Forcecage

[Hael]

You assume that you can pick and choose how to counter, the reality is you need to choose your element type for flame shield ahead of time, so are you going to rely on the mephits to protect?
You don't seem to be taking into consideration that to use the bond creatures need to clump up (teleporting to each other) and expend their reactions. You're making it sound like a free propistion of just sharing one big pool of hp... which it isn't.
I don't understand what you're talking about with wasting heads actions either...

I do assume that, and I am allowed to by assumption. If we pick out smoke mephits before the fight, then I want ice resistance from the fireshield before the fight begins. I just need enough resistances/immunities to ensure enough redundancy so that i'm always covered (in practice 2 bonds with fire, 2 bonds with ice, one acid, one lightning). If I only have 5 proficiency due to being eg lvl 14, there will be scenarios where one reaction has already been utilized and a needed resist is unavailable, but those are edge cases. And edge cases that I can plan for with additional uses of fireshield or items/potions etc

Moreover, I don't care about smoke mephits. For instance, suppose she cold blasts two people and a smoke mephit. Party member 1 can take the damage for party member 2, and the smoke mephit can take the damage for party member 2.. Thus getting obliterated with 3 applications of aoe damage. The net effect (whether the aoe was fire or ice), is that my party members were able to use their reaction to *zero* a potentially huge amount of damage from a head at the worst case cost of only a single summon (and the peace cleric can reapply bond to a new summon victim next round). I can keep doing that for 5 or 6 rounds before I run out of bonds.

So you're... just handwaving that the Cleric is on an unnamed steed and allowed the postioning to affect the battle without repurcussions? The easiest way to facilitate that steed is Phantom Steed, which is trivial to end, leaving the Cleric mounted on a stationary horse."

Ok w.r.t to positioning. First of all, some assumptions about the high level party should be made here. For instance that at least one or two have some flight or movement ability (find greater steed, a flying mount or summon, flying boots, flight from a class feature etc, maybe a simulacrum concentrating on flight etc). So even if everyone needs to be in 30 foot range (60 if the peace cleric is higher lvl), with a z axis, a 30 by 30 by 30 sphere is a lot of space that people can spread out in. Moreover, you only have to be within 30/60 feet of a single member to have access to the bond (allowing even more space). Its not trivial for Tiamat to always be able to clip everyone that have that sort of mobility. Certainly not with the line elements while she is restrained, and the cone portion's conic section struggles against a third axis or when facing eg Leomonds tiny hut (which can be thought of as an obstacle or cover for dex saves, even if not inside).

That's assuming that the breathweapons see this as a single pool... which assumes that only a single person is taking damage from any given breath, that's ludicrous to assume."

See above and related discussions about how protective bond works. In practice, its going to be zeroing *at least* one heads aoe, and likely still have some reactions or disposable summons left over to resist a portion of the second heads. We haven't even discussed how Leomonds hut is working... Allowing the cleric, druid, wizard to sit in there concentrating on spells, healing each other and moving in and out to cast things. Indeed, once Tiamat is grounded her only realistic strat is to break out of the grapple and run off to regenerate.

I assume 'life shepherd' is a Life Cleric Shepherd Druid multiclass. There is no reason why Disciple of Life would work with the Unicorn totem. Those creatures are being healed by a feature, not by a leveled spell. The creature that gets Heal cast on them gets the bonus, no one else does besides the standard Unicorn bonus."

Fine. I happen to not agree with this ruling, but I know that Crawford does. Regardless it's still not small amounts of aoe healing with druid lvl * number of party members + the primary heal + lifecleric bonus. The familiars will also be providing lifeberries etc Also, If team members get low, they can come in the hut to restore hps.

The word obviously is used a lot on the other side of this argument, what is obvious about the Rune Knight being able to control jack? You still haven't addressed how they're Huge either...So everyone is in the hut besides the Rune Knight? So all of her attacks and breaths are being aimed at a single creature that the rest of the party is unable to help with anything since I think you may be missing something here:"

Why is that a problem? Bonded Summons and melee can be outside, people that are inside can step out, cast, and step in (just not the wizard, or the wizards simalucrum that AA'd the initial hut) or alternatively stay inside and cast summon spells/bond etc. The bonded summons can eat the damage for the RK and other melee combatants who are outside, and people can step out and drop big heals on the RK or do damage etc. I don't really care if Shepherd druid summons eat a lot of aoes. He has a lot of slots and Tiamat doesn't have that many rounds before she simply dies to the combined mass of DPR. I don't think you properly account for how much damage upcast summons, planar bound creatures and assorted simulacrums are capable of outputing once she's grounded.

So you're instead arguing for level 20 PCs? That clarifies some things, however you still haven't presented a party of 4 nor have you said how this party is going to actually kill her?
Shrodingers party so far nebulously includes:"

Again, im arguing that certain subclasses really hurts her statblock in a way that was likely not intended. Peace clerics are essentially a huge nerf to Tiamats dpr (easily zeroing 2 points of her legendary action, likely taking a chunk out of the second heads dpr, and making hp shared for the melee component). Chronurgists are ridiculous against her, with tiny hut protecting two or three members at a time, the massive boost to party initiative, arcane abeyance for extra concentrations and the even more ridiculous convergent future (which the simulacrum can use to zero various attack rolls or head attacks until the simalucrum is too exhausted to continue). For that matter, maybe the chronurgist has magic jar'd an exhaustion proof body, in which case now you have two convergent futures PER ROUND to deal with.

For a good party, Eldariels party was an excellent start. The hard part of the fight is the initial restraint. If forcecage isn't accessible, grappling seems like the way to go. So one of the optimized RK grappling builds (with enlarge) that you can find on the forums. A life shepherd, a peace cleric (maybe with some arti lvls for utility), an arti/chronurgist + simalucrum. A fifth party member would likely be dpr.. So maybe a sorlock or a hexadin with aura (note that the RK will likely be making a nonzero amount of his dex saving throws with aura, bless, bond, artificer infusions/items, cover from the summons etc

You're just pick an choosing abilities and things that can cause speed bumps... but not actually showing how any of those things fit together in a party. Your argument primarily is 'shared hp pool' which is a flawed concept against an aoe based opponent, 'resistances' which have been scarce in actually being shown and assuming you can freely do the right thing at the right time against an opponent smarter than the Wizard and wiser than any druid or cleric can ever dream to be.

Speed bumps isnt exactly what I would call not being able to hurt 3 out of four party members, and having most of your dpr negated, all the while taking massive amounts of damage by dozens of summons with pack tactics. It turns out that optimized parties can solve most of 5es problems pretty efficiently.

[Eldariel]

@DF: I'm simply ignoring the issues since I don't have the time to run it again yet so I can't fix them. Regardless, it looks obvious to me that the blunders by the party were more impactful than the rules mistakes. But whatever, I'll just run it again and we can talk about it then, if there's anything to talk about.

I'm saying "run it yourself" as in play both sides yourself: that way you don't have to argue rules or waste time waiting for turns. You could just play both sides instead. I gave you the party already and you have Tiamat's statblock and even the arena - just run it once and see what happens. That way you don't have to guess how the DM is gonna rule something or whatever - arbitrariness gets cut out.

[Dork_Forge]

I do assume that, and I am allowed to by assumption. If we pick out smoke mephits before the fight, then I want ice resistance from the fireshield before the fight begins. I just need enough resistances/immunities to ensure enough redundancy so that i'm always covered (in practice 2 bonds with fire, 2 bonds with ice, one acid, one lightning). If I only have 5 proficiency due to being eg lvl 14, there will be scenarios where one reaction has already been utilized and a needed resist is unavailable, but those are edge cases. And edge cases that I can plan for with additional uses of fireshield or items/potions etc

Moreover, I don't care about smoke mephits. For instance, suppose she cold blasts two people and a smoke mephit. Party member 1 can take the damage for party member 2, and the smoke mephit can take the damage for party member 2.. Thus getting obliterated with 3 applications of aoe damage. The net effect (whether the aoe was fire or ice), is that my party members were able to use their reaction to *zero* a potentially huge amount of damage from a head at the worst case cost of only a single summon (and the peace cleric can reapply bond to a new summon victim next round). I can keep doing that for 5 or 6 rounds before I run out of bonds.

If everything works perfectly let's say you are zeroing one aoe a turn... you're also tying up a significant amount of resources to do it. Pretty much every bonded person's reaction? Replacing these summons so frequently (both the slots and action economy).

Even if this works so well (which I am in no way convinced of, primarily because you're choosing to handwave how you're acquiring all of the resistances you need, this is basically shrodinger's party), you're eating a breath weapon a turn and if she choose to melee there isn't even going to be reaction abilities availble to help.

Ok w.r.t to positioning. First of all, some assumptions about the high level party should be made here. For instance that at least one or two have some flight or movement ability (find greater steed, a flying mount or summon, flying boots, flight from a class feature etc, maybe a simulacrum concentrating on flight etc). So even if everyone needs to be in 30 foot range (60 if the peace cleric is higher lvl), with a z axis, a 30 by 30 by 30 sphere is a lot of space that people can spread out in. Moreover, you only have to be within 30/60 feet of a single member to have access to the bond (allowing even more space). Its not trivial for Tiamat to always be able to clip everyone that have that sort of mobility. Certainly not with the line elements while she is restrained, and the cone portion's conic section struggles against a third axis or when facing eg Leomonds tiny hut (which can be thought of as an obstacle or cover for dex saves, even if not inside).

Yeah, nope, more schrodingers here. You're just assuming flight capability without hammering in where it's coming from, the action economy or even if there's enough concentration to achieve it.

And she's restrained now? Is this just a casual way of saying grappled or do you literally mean the condition?

You're already spending the time typing out the replies, this would be a much more convincing argument if you specified a party and how they're meant to keep on top of this defence that needs constant maintenence.

See above and related discussions about how protective bond works. In practice, its going to be zeroing *at least* one heads aoe, and likely still have some reactions or disposable summons left over to resist a portion of the second heads. We haven't even discussed how Leomonds hut is working... Allowing the cleric, druid, wizard to sit in there concentrating on spells, healing each other and moving in and out to cast things. Indeed, once Tiamat is grounded her only realistic strat is to break out of the grapple and run off to regenerate.

In practice I don't think this will reliably work every single round, especially the first round. Even if it can be zero'd... eating a dragon breath weapon every round is still devastating to the party before melee focus fire considertations.

Fine. I happen to not agree with this ruling, but I know that Crawford does. Regardless it's still not small amounts of aoe healing with druid lvl * number of party members + the primary heal + lifecleric bonus. The familiars will also be providing lifeberries etc Also, If team members get low, they can come in the hut to restore hps.

Crawford doesn't really matter here and I didn't even see if he had made a ruling on it, it's clearly neither intent nor RAW on the ability.

So now there's also familiars, that are surviving the AOEs, carrying Goodberries and... what? What supports a familiar feeding someone a Goodberry?

I get the feeling that at least part of the durability you think a party would have is based around rulings you either personally prefer or incorrectly though was RAW.

This isn't even considering that by using the Unicorn, you're forcing everyone to be inside a certain, nice aoe-able space.

Why is that a problem? Bonded Summons and melee can be outside, people that are inside can step out, cast, and step in (just not the wizard, or the wizards simalucrum that AA'd the initial hut) or alternatively stay inside and cast summon spells/bond etc. The bonded summons can eat the damage for the RK and other melee combatants who are outside, and people can step out and drop big heals on the RK or do damage etc. I don't really care if Shepherd druid summons eat a lot of aoes. He has a lot of slots and Tiamat doesn't have that many rounds before she simply dies to the combined mass of DPR. I don't think you properly account for how much damage upcast summons, planar bound creatures and assorted simulacrums are capable of outputing once she's grounded.

Why is it a problem? The Rune Knight will die very, very quickly. These bonds are now getting real sketchy, if multiple summons are bonded then you're not covering the party, not that you were covering them and the simulacrums to begin with if you assumed a bonded Mephit.

Again, im arguing that certain subclasses really hurts her statblock in a way that was likely not intended. Peace clerics are essentially a huge nerf to Tiamats dpr (easily zeroing 2 points of her legendary action, likely taking a chunk out of the second heads dpr, and making hp shared for the melee component). Chronurgists are ridiculous against her, with tiny hut protecting two or three members at a time, the massive boost to party initiative, arcane abeyance for extra concentrations and the even more ridiculous convergent future (which the simulacrum can use to zero various attack rolls or head attacks until the simalucrum is too exhausted to continue). For that matter, maybe the chronurgist has magic jar'd an exhaustion proof body, in which case now you have two convergent futures PER ROUND to deal with.

And I'm saying that just naming some abilities does not win a fight, especially when you're doing it haphazardly with no real regard to if these things actually work together in the way that you expect them to.

Any argument that relies on Magic Jar, magical items gained from outside of class features, or any assumptions that you can't actually point to how they are more than just favourable assumptions don't strengthen this argument. They just make it more contingent on things going the party's way over an increasing large amount of time before the fight.

For a good party, Eldariels party was an excellent start. The hard part of the fight is the initial restraint. If forcecage isn't accessible, grappling seems like the way to go. So one of the optimized RK grappling builds (with enlarge) that you can find on the forums. A life shepherd, a peace cleric (maybe with some arti lvls for utility), an arti/chronurgist + simalucrum. A fifth party member would likely be dpr.. So maybe a sorlock or a hexadin with aura (note that the RK will likely be making a nonzero amount of his dex saving throws with aura, bless, bond, artificer infusions/items, cover from the summons etc

So, where is the Enlarge coming from? If you just keep saying it, I'll just keep asking, just think about it and put down how this actually works.

Do you actually think this is reasonably achievable before Tier 4, which your assumptions seem to be based around given the abilities and multiclassing you want.

This all just feels like you pointing at various things and saying look! This stuff will make an easy/winnable fight.

Speed bumps isnt exactly what I would call not being able to hurt 3 out of four party members, and having most of your dpr negated, all the while taking massive amounts of damage by dozens of summons with pack tactics. It turns out that optimized parties can solve most of 5es problems pretty efficiently.

Dozens of summons with pact tactics?

You're just going to throw that out there with absolutely zero justification?

I'm not seeing 'most' of her DPR being negated and I'm not seeing any actual significant damage output.

@DF: I'm simply ignoring the issues since I don't have the time to run it again yet so I can't fix them. Regardless, it looks obvious to me that the blunders by the party were more impactful than the rules mistakes. But whatever, I'll just run it again and we can talk about it then, if there's anything to talk about.

I'm not saying you have to run it again period, nevermind right now. My problem is that whatever your opinion on the weight of the mistakes was, you keep pointing to a simulation she undeniably RAW should not have died in. If you stopped pointing to it as a victory then I wouldn't mention it again, as it stands it just looks like you're choosing to ignore your mistakes and use what you consider victories to back your argument.

I'm saying "run it yourself" as in play both sides yourself: that way you don't have to argue rules or waste time waiting for turns. You could just play both sides instead. I gave you the party already and you have Tiamat's statblock and even the arena - just run it once and see what happens. That way you don't have to guess how the DM is gonna rule something or whatever - arbitrariness gets cut out.

Okay, and I would rather not. It is a considerably time sink to do everything yourself and I have two games a week, work and personal committments. So seeing as I don't feel like I have any need or desire to do this myself (again, my firm belief is that the onus of proof is on the one's saying she's weak to begin with) I won't invest my limited free time.

Just stop pointing to the thing as proof and it'll stop coming up.

[Hael]

So, where is the Enlarge coming from? If you just keep saying it, I'll just keep asking, just think about it and put down how this actually works.

Any of these builds or proto builds will do, but in particular lets pick the armorer X/RK3 as it nicely solves stubborn DMs not giving out flying instruments/mounts to tier3/4 parties going up against world ending threats. The build now provides winged boots at lvl 15. The build also provides a very high grappling roll (combined with convergent futures) pretty much ensuring a grapple as well.

If everything works perfectly let's say you are zeroing one aoe a turn... you're also tying up a significant amount of resources to do it. Pretty much every bonded person's reaction? Replacing these summons so frequently (both the slots and action economy).

Good, we now both agree that we can zero a breath weapon! Progress! Note that if there is only one melee (say the RK, while the wizard, druid and cleric sit in the hut) 4 or 5 of the bonds are summons depending on prof.. Even before considering immunities, those can tank nearly 2 full rounds of breath weapons with their reactions assuming we spread them out well enough initially. Note that immunities and resistances aren't even that important here, as they could be wolves or velociraptors doing the tanking instead. Immunities really just saves us a little action economy.

You're already spending the time typing out the replies, this would be a much more convincing argument if you specified a party and how they're meant to keep on top of this defense that needs constant maintenance.

Sorry, I thought we mostly already had. Peace cleric, Armorer/RK, life Shepherd, Chronurgist..

Why is it a problem? The Rune Knight will die very, very quickly. These bonds are now getting real sketchy, if multiple summons are bonded then you're not covering the party, not that you were covering them and the simulacrums to begin with if you assumed a bonded Mephit.

I thought that it was clear that we wouldn't be bonding people sitting in a hut, as they don't need it. The only bonds are summons and melee. If the party only has the RK in melee, then it's just the summons and the RK that remain exposed.

And I'm saying that just naming some abilities does not win a fight, especially when you're doing it haphazardly with no real regard to if these things actually work together in the way that you expect them to.

I've done more than name abilities, and I think the path to win seems pretty clear at this point, if not to you then to others reading.. Despite rather tedious nitpicking on completely inconsequential details like the matter of 4 or 5 extra hps due to a ruling on aoe heal features or the denial of class spells b/c *feelings*. I concede all these points if you want.

You're just going to throw that out there with absolutely zero justification? I'm not seeing 'most' of her DPR being negated and I'm not seeing any actual significant damage output.

A life-shephard is present. Upcast conjure animals for wolves/raptors? A 7th lvl slot gives you 24 of them by my count. That's something like 40 dpr. The lvl 14 shepherd feature.. 4 CR2s (which we can get trivially by having someone grab him pre fight). DPR ~15. Two planar bound upcast celestials are like 35 dpr each. Then there are the actual summons by the peace cleric (maybe a coautl for bless and healing), another summon by the simulacrum (~30 with upcast aberations).. Thats a lot of damage before we even get to the damage done by the party and the simulacrum himself (crown of stars etc)... (40 + 15 +35 +35 + 30 ~ 155 dpr or 125 dpr per round after regen).. Some of these summons (many of which are ranged) will die off during the fight, but then Tiamat is wasting actions hurting them which is a net win for the party as we can simply resummon/bond and she doesn't have the action economy to keep up. I just don't see her living for more than 5 or 6 rounds of this type of collective pounding.. I'm not really even trying very hard to create dpr here (say by using high lvl blasting spells or using items)..

Meanwhile the RK tank that's grappling.. Every turn he has his lvl in temp hp from defensive field.. he gets at least 8 hp per round in regen (two familiars, and anything else we want that can carry lifeberries to him, like eg one of the wolves or presummoned tiny servants that we can keep in the hut with us). He will also have access to healing by the peace cleric, couatl and shepherd druid every turn (including upcast healing words, potential channel divinities + life shepherd bonuses and aoe effects as well as big shot heals like the heal spell). For the purpose of this exercise, we can warding bond him with the cleric or ideally the druid if we get access to that spell (say via a mark). He's going to have immunity to poison (feast), resistance to fire and cold (fire shield), 4-5 tanking creatures per round, and access to the usual crazy high arti ac and great saves from bless+peace+arti features. We also now have runes to deflect unwanted head attack... I haven't even spent much time wondering what magic items to give him, simply b/c I don't see why it really matters, the fight seems easier and easier the more I keep writing.

[Dork_Forge]

Any of these builds or proto builds will do, but in particular lets pick the armorer X/RK3 as it nicely solves stubborn DMs not giving out flying instruments/mounts to tier3/4 parties going up against world ending threats. The build now provides winged boots at lvl 15. The build also provides a very high grappling roll (combined with convergent futures) pretty much ensuring a grapple as well.

None of those builds are Artificer based, the thread linked to one that has what you refer to (Rune 3 on an Artificer) and is incredibly heavily invested into grappling.

Winged Boots are a 10th level Artificer infusion... so there's 5 levels of Rune Knight? This might seem nitpicky but there's so many assumptions and small mistakes that get thrown around in this conversation as a whole that they most certainly add up.

So...who is casting Enlarge?

Good, we now both agree that we can zero a breath weapon! Progress! Note that if there is only one melee (say the RK, while the wizard, druid and cleric sit in the hut) 4 or 5 of the bonds are summons depending on prof.. Even before considering immunities, those can tank nearly 2 full rounds of breath weapons with their reactions assuming we spread them out well enough initially. Note that immunities and resistances aren't even that important here, as they could be wolves or velociraptors doing the tanking instead. Immunities really just saves us a little action economy.

Please don't oversell my willingness to engage in a hypothetical.

Who you're bonding is all over the place. So it's the grappler and then just a bunch of summons that are close enough to use the bond but far enough away to not get slaughtered en masse?

And of course the Druid is able to manage to get these summons out there and bonded before the hut comes up... Or the hut can come up before anyone gets breathed on right?

Sorry, I thought we mostly already had. Peace cleric, Armorer/RK, life Shepherd, Chronurgist..

You've been very explicit in naming abilities you want to combine, this is the first time you've actually put down a party. It's still... undefined as you haven't given races, level splits or any ASI decisions, but it's progress.

I thought that it was clear that we wouldn't be bonding people sitting in a hut, as they don't need it. The only bonds are summons and melee. If the party only has the RK in melee, then it's just the summons and the RK that remain exposed.

And the hut going up on the first turn whilst everyone you want to be able to get in is inside the area, how is that handled?

I've done more than name abilities, and I think the path to win seems pretty clear at this point, if not to you then to others reading.. Despite rather tedious nitpicking on completely inconsequential details like the matter of 4 or 5 extra hps due to a ruling on aoe heal features or the denial of class spells b/c *feelings*. I concede all these points if you want.

You can think all you like, up until this point you've primarily discussed using the bond to create a shared hp pool and abeyance to abuse tiny hut. Here's something rather hilarious though:

When you talk about a shared hp pool everyone's hp is somehow magically a giant pool that bond does not provide. When I point out a rules error that amounts to 3+ hp per person every time the Druid heals I'm nitpicking? If you're shared hp pool idea is to be believed, then isn't even the low end of that actually an additional 12hp per spell use?

Making an argument for something being easy or a block being weak is not something I find convinvcing when it is full of favourable rulings and favourable rules errors. This has been the case with multiple posters advocating for the Tiamat weakness point of view.

If the block is so weak, then surely all of those favourable errors and rulings shouldn't matter right?

As a general rule of thumb I find 'Magic Jar into a better body' less of an argument and more of a handwave. You can't guarantee anything but an attempt to take over a body, that includes success and that a desirable body is even available.

A life-shephard is present. Upcast conjure animals for wolves/raptors? A 7th lvl slot gives you 24 of them by my count. That's something like 40 dpr. The lvl 14 shepherd feature.. 4 CR2s (which we can get trivially by having someone grab him pre fight). DPR ~15. Two planar bound upcast celestials are like 35 dpr each. Then there are the actual summons by the peace cleric (maybe a coautl for bless and healing), another summon by the simulacrum (~30 with upcast aberations).. Thats a lot of damage before we even get to the damage done by the party and the simulacrum himself (crown of stars etc)... (40 + 15 +35 +35 + 30 ~ 155 dpr or 125 dpr per round after regen).. Some of these summons (many of which are ranged) will die off during the fight, but then Tiamat is wasting actions hurting them which is a net win for the party as we can simply resummon/bond and she doesn't have the action economy to keep up. I just don't see her living for more than 5 or 6 rounds of this type of collective pounding.. I'm not really even trying very hard to create dpr here (say by using high lvl blasting spells or using items)..

So we're adding that the player chooses the creatures onto the favourable rulings then? And that once the summons are established as a threat Tiamat is just going to tolerate getting bitten? They'll have their own initiative, so once they're an established threat there is basically zero chance they will get to act without their numbers being decimated.

To end up with a horde of summons that are literally useless the moment Tiamat isn't on the ground. And if so many party members are concentrating on summons, then they can't concentrate on other buffs or effects.

Meanwhile the RK tank that's grappling.. Every turn he has his lvl in temp hp from defensive field.. he gets at least 8 hp per round in regen (two familiars, and anything else we want that can carry lifeberries to him, like eg one of the wolves or presummoned tiny servants that we can keep in the hut with us). He will also have access to healing by the peace cleric, couatl and shepherd druid every turn (including upcast healing words, potential channel divinities + life shepherd bonuses and aoe effects as well as big shot heals like the heal spell). For the purpose of this exercise, we can warding bond him with the cleric or ideally the druid if we get access to that spell (say via a mark). He's going to have immunity to poison (feast), resistance to fire and cold (fire shield), 4-5 tanking creatures per round, and access to the usual crazy high arti ac and great saves from bless+peace+arti features. We also now have runes to deflect unwanted head attack... I haven't even spent much time wondering what magic items to give him, simply b/c I don't see why it really matters, the fight seems easier and easier the more I keep writing.

Everyturn up to his prof mod he has his artificer level as a bonus action, which will compete with other bonus actions on at least the going Huge round. You may feel that's nitpicky, I think it all adds up and if not accounting for things properly, then what's the point?

There's nothing in the game to suggest that familiars (or anyone) can feed another creature a Goodberry, and whether or not they even benefit from Disciple of life is debated on here.

For the purpose of this exercise? You either include other PCs in the bond as part of your strategy or you don't, your plan seems to be changing depending on what part you're talking about a little bit.

Warding Bond is severely overrated, you're saving damage on the RK, but the whole point of the hut was to protect the others and now the casters are taking automatic damage forcing Con saves. And that's IF it works through the hut, since it's certainly a magical effect.

I'm sure it does seem easier to you, you also seem to think a lot of things will go the parties way, like Tiamat even getting in grappling range, summons being able to do any damage, getting into the hut without catching damage first etc.

[MaxWilson]

I'm sure it does seem easier to you, you also seem to think a lot of things will go the parties way, like Tiamat even getting in grappling range, summons being able to do any damage, getting into the hut without catching damage first etc.

@Hael and Dork_Forge, if you would care to roll this out, I volunteer to DM so that Dork_Forge can be Tiamat and Hael can be a 14th(?) level party.

[Dork_Forge]

@Hael and Dork_Forge, if you would care to roll this out, I volunteer to DM so that Dork_Forge can be Tiamat and Hael can be a 14th(?) level party.

Sure why not

[PattThe]

Sure why not

As first-reply to this thread I demand the opportunity to shoutcast hype in the adjacent OOC channel.
glhf friends. I am absolutely in support of the Legendary Creature Brawl Thread as a concept on forums.

[MaxWilson]

Sure why not

Great. Here's what I propose:

Tiamat Practice Fight Legendary Creature Brawl Thread: Tiamat

This contest is primarily between Tiamat and the party. DM exists to make rulings and keep information secret until the right time to reveal it (e.g. precast spells, actions while hidden, positions if hidden, which characters and monsters are actually Major Image illusions). Because this fight is also for the entertainment of the community, all details will eventually be revealed including all secrets, and you may want to reveal certain minor secrets like character class/level and current position immediately and publicly, for the entertainment of onlookers, while keeping other cards close to the chest (e.g. "Bob" and "Ragmar" on the map are actually zombies disguised with Seeming, and the real Bob and Ragmar are hiding in a Rope Trick).

Therefore, a lot of the onus for posting and actual play is on the players. DM does not control any characters or post regularly, is just the ref. I have created a thread for
Tiamat Practice Fight Legendary Creature Brawl Thread: Tiamat. I therefore suggest that you and Hael (or whoever wants to play the party) go to that thread and settle the terms you want (any rules interactions that you are relying on, level limits for the party, terrain, etc.). If you want to use a battle grid or something you set up whatever you're comfortable with and post a link to that thread for us to read. Any rulings or conditions you don't agree on between yourselves are on the DM to decide, and I'll decide something that seems fair and realistic in my best judgment while adhering to vanilla RAW as closely as seems reasonable.

I will monitor the thread and make any rulings that are needed, and when you need secrets kept you can give them to me until it's time to reveal them (and if you wind up hunting each other through darkness or heavy obscurement I will do things like tell you if the other side has come into sight yet, Kriegspiel-style). But for the most part it's going to be up to you guys to just say what you're doing, where you're moving, and what your die rolls are.

Agreed?

Dork_Forge is Tiamat. Who's going to play the PCs?

[Hael]

@Hael and Dork_Forge, if you would care to roll this out, I volunteer to DM so that Dork_Forge can be Tiamat and Hael can be a 14th(?) level party.

Thank you for offering, and I would love to play DnD, but sadly I am currently swamped by work till the end of the month. I will gladly cede my position to someone else who wishes to play this.

[MaxWilson]

Thank you for offering, and I would love to play DnD, but sadly I am currently swamped by work till the end of the month. I will gladly cede my position to someone else who wishes to play this.

Completely understandable. Internet D&D takes up surprisingly large amounts of time unfortunately. Anyone else out there interested in playing a party? Doesn't have to be 14th level specifically, just needs to be something controversial and fun enough that Dork_Forge still wants to play against you. (Two 14th level PCs + Orcus (no wand) + Demogorgon vs. Tiamat, Simulacrum banned from play? I'd bet on Tiamat in that fight but would love to play it, only, I can't because I also don't have enough time.)

[Eldariel]

So I finally had the time to rerun the fight. Fixed the rules issues of the first run (though there were a few mistakes with the rolls but I corrected them for the play itself; at first I rolled at +15 for the party but that didn't matter, and later on I i.a. forgot about Dimension Door's size limitation and forgot about Bless and Leadership on a save), and played tighter on the party. I believe I took close to optimal route on Tiamat on most turns too, though one can always find more optimal positionings here or there but given her size it appears to make surprisingly little difference: to Sharpshooters she's pretty much attackable wherever on the map with the Phantom Steed movement.

Level 14 Party vs. Tiamat Take 2 thread
- I ran Lucky vs. Disadvantage as "Roll thrice and pick the middle one" - the superadvantage ruling is stupid and would've let the party get value out of actively looking for disadvantage
- I let all damage types do full damage to stone since there are no guidelines whatsoever there
- I'm running Major Image as a spell that can create Darkness the party can see through (not that it was awfully relevant this time around)
- I didn't use Couatl to assume racials this time around even when turning into Knight

Casualties:
- Giant Ape [expensive to replace, this really isn't the best fight for it]
- Owl familiar

Things I learnt:
- Tiamat's Dodge isn't really all that if the party has someone able and willing to use Fog Cloud (and all the basic bonuses).

- The Ape has a bit too small an amount of HP. It dies to two breaths if Tiamat is slightly lucky meaning the hope of Polymorphing it again and keeping Tiamat in a DoT doesn't pan out very often (of course, even if it did, Tiamat could take a turn to actually kill it but that would obviously give a lot of value to the party).

- Wall of Stone is just way less reliable than Wall of Force; she can punch through in about a round, or a bit less

- Inspiration and Lucky add up to a lot of damage

- Couatl is awesome: Knight [or Hobgoblin Captain] + Orc War Chief + Quaggoth Thonot let it contribute more than the whole rest of the Cleric combined

- It's much better to just get Couatl its own steed (in this case there's ample ritualing power to enable that) and have it hang around in a humanoid utility form out of combat [in this scenario there's ample forewarning anyways but this seems better even for random encounters] than to have it spend its own movement on moving unable to use abilities on round 1

- Sharpshooter gives surprisingly good value even against Tiamat together with Inspiration, Bless and Leadership.

- Playing through something like this? Pretty quick. Reporting it on forums? Not so quick.

- The Forcecage + Wall of Force block is pretty effective. It gives you a position where she doesn't really have means to breathe on the party and the party can move and attack freely: her only real counter is to pull back and force the party to drop the Wall or move out abandoning it (and let her regenerate while at it). She does go through a very significant amount of party resources over a fight simply because of how durable she is.

- Phantom Steeds are pretty awesome. Even having to squeeze for the first 10', they effectively have 90' movement plus Dash meaning costless 180' a round. This means it's very hard for Tiamat to hide anywhere in a way that the party can't run'n'gun her after dropping their Wall. One of the big mistakes first time was readying the first Wall of Stone instead of just casting it. Without doing that, the party was able to just dash to a good position.

- Enlarge is a convenient (minor) damage boost but not being able to ride a Steed or Dimension Door with an ally while under the effect makes it restricted in its usability.

- Keeping all the statblocks accurate and up-to-date seems like a nearly impossible task. I had to fix a hundred little things on them and there are probably still issues remaining.

- RAW Initiative still sucks, RAW "unseen attacker" rules are stupid, and RAW Tiamat is a really dull monster that bears more resemblance to Tarrasque than a deity.


EDIT: Also, a legendary creature fight arena should totally be a thing (both, party vs. and the monsters vs. one another). I think it would be interesting to do something similar with many of the demon lords and such in part to test how much difference their more varied combat prowess and spellcasting ability makes (though each demon lord has its own achilles' heels).

[Dork_Forge]

Spoiler: Spoilered for length

Show

So I finally had the time to rerun the fight. Fixed the rules issues of the first run (though there were a few mistakes with the rolls but I corrected them for the play itself; at first I rolled at +15 for the party but that didn't matter, and later on I i.a. forgot about Dimension Door's size limitation and forgot about Bless and Leadership on a save), and played tighter on the party. I believe I took close to optimal route on Tiamat on most turns too, though one can always find more optimal positionings here or there but given her size it appears to make surprisingly little difference: to Sharpshooters she's pretty much attackable wherever on the map with the Phantom Steed movement.

Level 14 Party vs. Tiamat Take 2 thread
- I ran Lucky vs. Disadvantage as "Roll thrice and pick the middle one" - the superadvantage ruling is stupid and would've let the party get value out of actively looking for disadvantage
- I let all damage types do full damage to stone since there are no guidelines whatsoever there
- I'm running Major Image as a spell that can create Darkness the party can see through (not that it was awfully relevant this time around)
- I didn't use Couatl to assume racials this time around even when turning into Knight

Casualties:
- Giant Ape [expensive to replace, this really isn't the best fight for it]
- Owl familiar

Things I learnt:
- Tiamat's Dodge isn't really all that if the party has someone able and willing to use Fog Cloud (and all the basic bonuses).

- The Ape has a bit too small an amount of HP. It dies to two breaths if Tiamat is slightly lucky meaning the hope of Polymorphing it again and keeping Tiamat in a DoT doesn't pan out very often (of course, even if it did, Tiamat could take a turn to actually kill it but that would obviously give a lot of value to the party).

- Wall of Stone is just way less reliable than Wall of Force; she can punch through in about a round, or a bit less

- Inspiration and Lucky add up to a lot of damage

- Couatl is awesome: Knight [or Hobgoblin Captain] + Orc War Chief + Quaggoth Thonot let it contribute more than the whole rest of the Cleric combined

- It's much better to just get Couatl its own steed (in this case there's ample ritualing power to enable that) and have it hang around in a humanoid utility form out of combat [in this scenario there's ample forewarning anyways but this seems better even for random encounters] than to have it spend its own movement on moving unable to use abilities on round 1

- Sharpshooter gives surprisingly good value even against Tiamat together with Inspiration, Bless and Leadership.

- Playing through something like this? Pretty quick. Reporting it on forums? Not so quick.

- The Forcecage + Wall of Force block is pretty effective. It gives you a position where she doesn't really have means to breathe on the party and the party can move and attack freely: her only real counter is to pull back and force the party to drop the Wall or move out abandoning it (and let her regenerate while at it). She does go through a very significant amount of party resources over a fight simply because of how durable she is.

- Phantom Steeds are pretty awesome. Even having to squeeze for the first 10', they effectively have 90' movement plus Dash meaning costless 180' a round. This means it's very hard for Tiamat to hide anywhere in a way that the party can't run'n'gun her after dropping their Wall. One of the big mistakes first time was readying the first Wall of Stone instead of just casting it. Without doing that, the party was able to just dash to a good position.

- Enlarge is a convenient (minor) damage boost but not being able to ride a Steed or Dimension Door with an ally while under the effect makes it restricted in its usability.

- Keeping all the statblocks accurate and up-to-date seems like a nearly impossible task. I had to fix a hundred little things on them and there are probably still issues remaining.

- RAW Initiative still sucks, RAW "unseen attacker" rules are stupid, and RAW Tiamat is a really dull monster that bears more resemblance to Tarrasque than a deity.


EDIT: Also, a legendary creature fight arena should totally be a thing (both, party vs. and the monsters vs. one another). I think it would be interesting to do something similar with many of the demon lords and such in part to test how much difference their more varied combat prowess and spellcasting ability makes (though each demon lord has its own achilles' heels).

I skimmed this and problems already started to jump out:

-I assume the Bard cast Elemental Weapon before the fight? They then cast Major Image, another concentration spell.

-Help action is used heavily against Tiamat, if she's flying then how is the Wizard (or anyone without a fly speed) using the Help action? If she isn't high enough... why isn't she?

-Why does she even both to acknowledge the ape? Just fly above it and ignore

-Why doesn't she at any point Divine Word the Couatl?

-There appears to be two turns where she doesn't breath... at all

-Mounts are left to the side then later remounted... seeing as they are the only real reason the party can move quickly without burning 4th level slots why wouldn't she just breath on them?

-This may be a visualisation issue, but how did you build a wall of stone barricade to protect the entire party? They're all on large creatures, the Ape is Huge and since creatures can't be in the same space there's need to be a 5ft square's worth of height above them to accommodate Familiars and Homunculus. From the looks of what you drew it's taking 7 of the panels to shield them, so how's it supported and how is everyone fitting in there?

-You gave someone 3/4 cover for attacking through a hole in Wall of Stone, stating it was because the hole was 5', Wall of Stone panels are 10' so how could a 5' hole be made?

[Eldariel]

I skimmed this and problems already started to jump out:

-I assume the Bard cast Elemental Weapon before the fight? They then cast Major Image, another concentration spell.

It was cast from a level 6 slot, at which point it doesn't cost Concentration.

-Help action is used heavily against Tiamat, if she's flying then how is the Wizard (or anyone without a fly speed) using the Help action? If she isn't high enough... why isn't she

-Why does she even both to acknowledge the ape? Just fly above it and ignore

She's too big. If she were 20'/20' she could do a bit of flying but at 50' size and 60' room (I increased the height by 10'; it's 50' in the module), she's liable to get grappled down sooner or later. At 10' height, Wizard from a Steed can reach her easily enough.

-Why doesn't she at any point Divine Word the Couatl?

Hmm, it's quite questionable if she'd know to cast it since there's nothing about the Couatl that makes her appear a Celestial. Still, let's say she does (though spending Divine Word on this instead of saving it to finish someone off is questionable). She has line of effect on turns 5, 6 & 7. It could probably be handled via positioning and wall shape and such, but for simplicity (so I don't have to change much), let's say the Simulacrum just Counterspell VIIs it on turn 5, let's say it's Portent 19'd on turn 6 (with Bless, that automakes the save); I rolled the attack on the final turn that originally used Portent and it hits anyways since the Inspiration [that was now used on the last hit] is then used on it instead, and 7 (after which the Couatl doesn't do much so it doesn't really matter except one more casualty). That way we can keep things as they are even assuming Divine Words have been used with reckless abandon.

-There appears to be two turns where she doesn't breath... at all

No valid targets. Breathing a Wall of Force doesn't accomplish much.

-Mounts are left to the side then later remounted... seeing as they are the only real reason the party can move quickly without burning 4th level slots why wouldn't she just breath on them?

To get to breathe on them she'd have to Dash to them and not use Dodge that round which, considering her HP at the time, seems like a very questionable move. Plus at that point they aren't really used that much; while remounted, Dimension Doors and Teleports could've accomplished the same mobility. It would be a very risky move on her part and considering the beating she's taking I don't think it would've been worth it though it's a topic one can of course disagree on (though reading the spell again, even if killed the Steed lasts for 1 minute while fading so it would only inconvenience the party after the fight).

-This may be a visualisation issue, but how did you build a wall of stone barricade to protect the entire party? They're all on large creatures, the Ape is Huge and since creatures can't be in the same space there's need to be a 5ft square's worth of height above them to accommodate Familiars and Homunculus. From the looks of what you drew it's taking 7 of the panels to shield them, so how's it supported and how is everyone fitting in there?

Familiars and Homunculus are Tiny so they can share space with medium creatures. And the Steeds are simply squeezing together. The panels are supported by

-You gave someone 3/4 cover for attacking through a hole in Wall of Stone, stating it was because the hole was 5', Wall of Stone panels are 10' so how could a 5' hole be made?

That's my bad, it should break the whole 10' panel and that should be like half cover at most (but for a 50'/50' creature, it seems like some cover should be had). Didn't really matter though, none of the attacks missed nor did I expect them to.

[JNAProductions]

It was cast from a level 6 slot, at which point it doesn't cost Concentration.

That's just wrong. Its duration never changes.

[Eldariel]

That's just wrong. Its duration never changes.

Wut? https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/...0Image#content

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the spell lasts until dispelled, without requiring your Concentration.

[JNAProductions]

Wut? https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/...0Image#content

Whoops-thought you meant EWeapon, not Image.

[Dork_Forge]

It was cast from a level 6 slot, at which point it doesn't cost Concentration.

Thank you for the clarification. Where is the darkness and party in relation to Tiamat when this happens? Any amount of the Darkenss within her Truesight invalidates the illusion and if she's around the corned then line of sight becomes important since there's no way she shouldn't benefit from cover around that corner.

She's too big. If she were 20'/20' she could do a bit of flying but at 50' size and 60' room (I increased the height by 10'; it's 50' in the module), she's liable to get grappled down sooner or later. At 10' height, Wizard from a Steed can reach her easily enough.

So you're using an arena where there's enough room in your mind to have her fly so the PCs have unobstructed run of the arena floor but not high enough for it to actually benefit her?

I'll file this under PC favouritism.

Hmm, it's quite questionable if she'd know to cast it since there's nothing about the Couatl that makes her appear a Celestial. Still, let's say she does (though spending Divine Word on this instead of saving it to finish someone off is questionable). She has line of effect on turns 5, 6 & 7. It could probably be handled via positioning and wall shape and such, but for simplicity (so I don't have to change much), let's say the Simulacrum just Counterspell VIIs it on turn 5, let's say it's Portent 19'd on turn 6 (with Bless, that automakes the save); I rolled the attack on the final turn that originally used Portent and it hits anyways since the Inspiration [that was now used on the last hit] is then used on it instead, and 7 (after which the Couatl doesn't do much so it doesn't really matter except one more casualty). That way we can keep things as they are even assuming Divine Words have been used with reckless abandon.

The notion that a hyper intelligent god doesn't know what a Coautl is doesn't hold any water. If your argument is that it starts in KNight form it shape changes again on Turn 2, which btw looking at the statblock I'm not seeing rules support for it going from one form straight into another.

Actually whilst we're here, how is Tiamat 'blocked out' by Forcecage? The screenshots you provide are largely just not helpful since the PC tokens are missing from them by and large and nothing is keyed for guidance. If you can just move effects like walls to the map layer if you're using Roll20 btw.

No valid targets. Breathing a Wall of Force doesn't accomplish much.

Turn 4 the party is attacking her and all she does is dodge and run away. So they're hitting her, but she has no option but to breath on a wall of force? What positioning makes that make sense?

To get to breathe on them she'd have to Dash to them and not use Dodge that round which, considering her HP at the time, seems like a very questionable move. Plus at that point they aren't really used that much; while remounted, Dimension Doors and Teleports could've accomplished the same mobility. It would be a very risky move on her part and considering the beating she's taking I don't think it would've been worth it though it's a topic one can of course disagree on (though reading the spell again, even if killed the Steed lasts for 1 minute while fading so it would only inconvenience the party after the fight).

As soon as they take damage they're useless, you don't get to use them for that minute, it's just so you don't get dumped prone on the floor. The 'beating' she's taking is only faciliated by the steeds, teleporting around just isn't viable continuously...

The party needing to burn limited slots and action economy on teleporting is nothing but a win, the Steed are literally the only thing making this hypermobility possible.

Familiars and Homunculus are Tiny so they can share space with medium creatures. And the Steeds are simply squeezing together. The panels are supported by

That's not how squeeze works, you squeeze through a small area, you don't get to ignore ending your turn in another creatures space. And if that was the case then the Druid would have dashed 190' down, not 200, might seem like nitpicking but mostly just seems like you didn't really think about that positioning working.

Where's the rule that says a tiny creature can share a space? All I'm seeing is that being two sizes smaller allows moving through a hostile square. The sentence about not being able to willingly end your movement in another creature's space is separate and I don't see it being modified or excempted anywhere.

Medium creatures mounting a large creature should be a 15ft height regardless.

I'm just not seeing how you can legitamately fit the small army of creatures you're calling a party in such a small space.

Your explanation about supporting it was cut off of, but if you are going to say the Druid crafted supports then that halves those panel sizes making it even more difficult to fit what shouldn't be able to fit in the first place.

There's just no way that wall is protecting everyone from being immediately breathed on.

That's my bad, it should break the whole 10' panel and that should be like half cover at most (but for a 50'/50' creature, it seems like some cover should be had). Didn't really matter though, none of the attacks missed nor did I expect them to.

It's less about something changing, it's more about another ruling being made erronesouly in the party's favour, because despite what you say about tactics that's the overarching trend here across both simulations.

[Eldariel]

Thank you for the clarification. Where is the darkness and party in relation to Tiamat when this happens? Any amount of the Darkenss within her Truesight invalidates the illusion and if she's around the corned then line of sight becomes important since there's no way she shouldn't benefit from cover around that corner.

I included a map: it's like 140'-150' range so True Seeing doesn't matter (it's the black box, while until her turn she's still in Turn 2 position). The archers have Sharpshooter so cover doesn't matter. Removed the box in the same map since she reaching True Seeing range renders it irrelevant.

So you're using an arena where there's enough room in your mind to have her fly so the PCs have unobstructed run of the arena floor but not high enough for it to actually benefit her?

I'll file this under PC favouritism.

I'm literally just using the arena from the module she's presented in. The complaint about my original thesis (that you can Forcecage and kill her) was that she's too small so I made her bigger. Can't have it both ways. Either she's big and thus has trouble fitting places or she's small and can be Forcecaged. Neither is perfect for her. As for the arena, blame WotC for player favoritism.

The notion that a hyper intelligent god doesn't know what a Coautl is doesn't hold any water. If your argument is that it starts in KNight form it shape changes again on Turn 2, which btw looking at the statblock I'm not seeing rules support for it going from one form straight into another.

The ability says "...its...other actions are replaced..." so it retains Change Shape in other forms. Indeed, Change Shape couldn't be used to change back into Couatl either otherwise, since the "back into its true form" is also a part of the clause.

Actually whilst we're here, how is Tiamat 'blocked out' by Forcecage? The screenshots you provide are largely just not helpful since the PC tokens are missing from them by and large and nothing is keyed for guidance. If you can just move effects like walls to the map layer if you're using Roll20 btw.

I used Roll20, yes, but I just wanted to get it done quickly with some approximate illustrations of positions and such so I didn't among others layer the walls correctly (since they mostly didn't last more than a round). And she's blocked out from the one open side of the Wall; the Wall is open from the left side but due to Forcecage she can't get in there (it's 20' so she can't even squeeze there). Basically, the Forcecage is just an obstacle and she's again too big to get past it even squeezing.

Turn 4 the party is attacking her and all she does is dodge and run away. So they're hitting her, but she has no option but to breath on a wall of force? What positioning makes that make sense?

The party can move out and in from the open side, take attacks and move back in. She can't move in there because she simply doesn't fit.

As soon as they take damage they're useless, you don't get to use them for that minute, it's just so you don't get dumped prone on the floor. The 'beating' she's taking is only faciliated by the steeds, teleporting around just isn't viable continuously...

The party needing to burn limited slots and action economy on teleporting is nothing but a win, the Steed are literally the only thing making this hypermobility possible.

Steeds can probably still move after starting to disappear. Not that it matters, in that case she'd open herself up to a bunch of free attacks to get there: she simply doesn't have the HP to bleed the party out of resources at that point anymore. She doesn't have an opportunity to do it before then.

That's not how squeeze works, you squeeze through a small area, you don't get to ignore ending your turn in another creatures space. And if that was the case then the Druid would have dashed 190' down, not 200, might seem like nitpicking but mostly just seems like you didn't really think about that positioning working.

Where's the rule that says a tiny creature can share a space? All I'm seeing is that being two sizes smaller allows moving through a hostile square. The sentence about not being able to willingly end your movement in another creature's space is separate and I don't see it being modified or excempted anywhere.

Medium creatures mounting a large creature should be a 15ft height regardless.

I'm just not seeing how you can legitamately fit the small army of creatures you're calling a party in such a small space.

Your explanation about supporting it was cut off of, but if you are going to say the Druid crafted supports then that halves those panel sizes making it even more difficult to fit what shouldn't be able to fit in the first place.

Only a span greater than 20' gets halved: while horizontally 20' is indeed reached, from the supports in the top side this is not so. Though if it really mattered, the Ape could get caught in it again. It doesn't really matter.

There's just no way that wall is protecting everyone from being immediately breathed on.

Creatures can squeeze together just fine. Nothing in the rules suggests that there's ever a problem even ending in adjacent squares (the header literally says "Squeezing into a smaller space". I didn't go through the trouble of putting all the minis in there: it's worth noting that each 10' intersection contains 4 5' squares. Each can hold 4 tiny creatures. There's...a total of 3 tiny creatures in the party so that shouldn't be a problem (especially since all of them can be airborne).

[Dork_Forge]

I'm literally just using the arena from the module she's presented in. The complaint about my original thesis (that you can Forcecage and kill her) was that she's too small so I made her bigger. Can't have it both ways. Either she's big and thus has trouble fitting places or she's small and can be Forcecaged. Neither is perfect for her. As for the arena, blame WotC for player favoritism.

There's no reason she can't just fly up into the upper levels whenever she wants, it's not a flat roofed area the ceiling is open for the other spires.

Even running it in the given map, she has more verticle options then you seem to have realised.

The ability says "...its...other actions are replaced..." so it retains Change Shape

in other forms. Indeed, Change Shape couldn't be used to change back into Couatl either otherwise, since the "back into its true form" is also a part of the clause.

I'm aware of this, my point was I don't see why the Couatl should be allowed to switch directly between polymorphed forms without reverting to it's natural form beforehand.

I used Roll20, yes, but I just wanted to get it done quickly with some approximate illustrations of positions and such so I didn't among others layer the walls correctly (since they mostly didn't last more than a round). And she's blocked out from the one open side of the Wall; the Wall is open from the left side but due to Forcecage she can't get in there (it's 20' so she can't even squeeze there). Basically, the Forcecage is just an obstacle and she's again too big to get past it even squeezing.

Please don't say this as if you're saving yourself a lot of hassle and time, it's literally two clicks to send it to the map or GM layer, you don't even have to change the layer you're on. I also don't see why doing this wouldn't be anything but beneficial to you running it since the tokens would be clearly visible at all times. You decided to take the time to do this (twice), the grand total of maybe a dozen clicks isn't costing you anything but does help ensure you're doing things properly and makes your screenshots worth something to others.

The way you do it the player tokens are just.. not there and to be frank when you're setting out to prove something it's not a good start.

The party can move out and in from the open side, take attacks and move back in. She can't move in there because she simply doesn't fit.

So they're what, shooting through the barred Forcecage like arrow slits?

The gap above the Forcecage would be what 40' with the ceiling you created? In realistic use of the map as intended each one of those corners actually has access to the 'upper levels' so a ceiling shouldn't be an issue... as it doesn't exist.

Steeds can probably still move after starting to disappear. Not that it matters, in that case she'd open herself up to a bunch of free attacks to get there: she simply doesn't have the HP to bleed the party out of resources at that point anymore. She doesn't have an opportunity to do it before then.

No, it can't move. You can ride the horse for the duration of the spell, taking damage ends the spell. You're left with a minute to safely dismount the stationary and fading horse with half of your movement or teleporting straight off of it.

Can't get there...? You had them Dimension Door off of the horses away from her, she should be right by the horses.

Only a span greater than 20' gets halved: while horizontally 20' is indeed reached, from the supports in the top side this is not so. Though if it really mattered, the Ape could get caught in it again. It doesn't really matter.

There's at least one roof panel that is 30' from the ground no matter how you slice it.

And despite your handwaves, it does matter, again because it's more wrong... but in the party's favour. I haven't caught a single straight incorrect thing that has fallen on Tiamat's side, and that's not counting favorable rulings like being able to reaction block a breath weapon.

Creatures can squeeze together just fine. Nothing in the rules suggests that there's ever a problem even ending in adjacent squares (the header literally says "Squeezing into a smaller space". I didn't go through the trouble of putting all the minis in there: it's worth noting that each 10' intersection contains 4 5' squares. Each can hold 4 tiny creatures. There's...a total of 3 tiny creatures in the party so that shouldn't be a problem (especially since all of them can be airborne).

Tiny creatures in a 5ft space aren't squeezing, that's irrelevant. The point is you have no space to account for them.

...Wait so you think that you can just choose to squeeze into a smaller square at will, despite there being nothing to actually squeeze against? Basically reducing your size footprint at will? Even if you think that's RAW (Which I very strongly don't think it is) do you think that's RAI?

And even if you're squeezing (which you shouldn't be able to and wasn't accounted for on the Druid in the first place, making it suspect) there isn't enough height to accomodate everything. The party don't melt into the mount, they're atop it, you're not just trying to for the mount alone into a space.

Oh and you walked away from my simulation, so stop reusing the favourable initiative over and over again. If you're actually going to run it from scratch twice, then run it from scratch twice.

[Eldariel]

There's no reason she can't just fly up into the upper levels whenever she wants, it's not a flat roofed area the ceiling is open for the other spires.

Even running it in the given map, she has more verticle options then you seem to have realised.

Sure, but that doesn't stop her from being fired upon so it's irrelevant.

I'm aware of this, my point was I don't see why the Couatl should be allowed to switch directly between polymorphed forms without reverting to it's natural form beforehand.

They have an ability that says:
"Change Shape.

The couatl magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating equal to or less than its own, or back into its true form. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the couatl's choice).

In a new form, the couatl retains its game statistics and ability to speak, but its AC, movement modes, Strength, Dexterity, and other actions are replaced by those of the new form, and it gains any statistics and capabilities (except class features, legendary actions, and lair actions) that the new form has but that it lacks. If the new form has a bite attack, the couatl can use its bite in that form."

That's it. There's no restriction. So yes, it can do that. It can either revert or turn into a humanoid or beast.

Please don't say this as if you're saving yourself a lot of hassle and time, it's literally two clicks to send it to the map or GM layer, you don't even have to change the layer you're on. I also don't see why doing this wouldn't be anything but beneficial to you running it since the tokens would be clearly visible at all times. You decided to take the time to do this (twice), the grand total of maybe a dozen clicks isn't costing you anything but does help ensure you're doing things properly and makes your screenshots worth something to others.

The way you do it the player tokens are just.. not there and to be frank when you're setting out to prove something it's not a good start.

At this point you're insinuating so much ill intent on me that I'm just going to ignore comments like this from now on.

So they're what, shooting through the barred Forcecage like arrow slits?

The gap above the Forcecage would be what 40' with the ceiling you created? In realistic use of the map as intended each one of those corners actually has access to the 'upper levels' so a ceiling shouldn't be an issue... as it doesn't exist.

The party could fire through the forcecage walls easily enough but they can just ride out and ride back in. It's 20' in the air: Tiamat can't squeeze underneath it nor behind it; there just is no space. But the party can move underneath it just fine.

No, it can't move. You can ride the horse for the duration of the spell, taking damage ends the spell. You're left with a minute to safely dismount the stationary and fading horse with half of your movement or teleporting straight off of it.

Thank you for your view.

Can't get there...? You had them Dimension Door off of the horses away from her, she should be right by the horses.

Please review the map on turn 7. Tiamat is to the side when the party dimension doors to the other side of the map. She would have to dash to the walled area to breathe thus allowing the party to simply DD back in using the same Wall of Force and get a free set of attacks without Dodge.

There's at least one roof panel that is 30' from the ground no matter how you slice it.

And despite your handwaves, it does matter, again because it's more wrong... but in the party's favour. I haven't caught a single straight incorrect thing that has fallen on Tiamat's side, and that's not counting favorable rulings like being able to reaction block a breath weapon.

They're above the party. 10' up then 10' down. Height is ill-defined in the game so I'm just taking normal horse height and character height: a normal horse is about 5' high and a human sans legs is about 3' so an adult human on horseback is under 10' high.

Tiny creatures in a 5ft space aren't squeezing, that's irrelevant. The point is you have no space to account for them.

...Wait so you think that you can just choose to squeeze into a smaller square at will, despite there being nothing to actually squeeze against? Basically reducing your size footprint at will? Even if you think that's RAW (Which I very strongly don't think it is) do you think that's RAI?

And even if you're squeezing (which you shouldn't be able to and wasn't accounted for on the Druid in the first place, making it suspect) there isn't enough height to accomodate everything. The party don't melt into the mount, they're atop it, you're not just trying to for the mount alone into a space.

Thank you for your view.

Oh and you walked away from my simulation, so stop reusing the favourable initiative over and over again. If you're actually going to run it from scratch twice, then run it from scratch twice.

I wanted to do it right with those numbers once. No point in leaving them unused. Like I said before, they're far from favourable: Couatl and Cleric acting so late is basically a wasted turn damage-wise, Wizard or Bard starting is better than Druid, etc.

So with that it seems like this run didn't have any meaningful issues and thus we have conclusively proven that Tiamat is indeed quite beatable in her own arena regardless of her size for a level 14 PHB only no magic items party. Thank you for your cooperation.

[Dork_Forge]

Sure, but that doesn't stop her from being fired upon so it's irrelevant.

Help is used against her by a nonflying creature multiple times. The verticle space calls into question her options when the party runs into the corners. Her not being trapped in a relatively low ceiling that you incorrectly imposed changes her options.

You can keep saying things are irrelevant and don't matter, it doesn't make it so and every time you run this there's multiple issues with it that add up.

At this point you're insinuating so much ill intent on me that I'm just going to ignore comments like this from now on.

You can read ill intent into it if you want, I mean no ill intent at all however I just want a test that's actually ran correctly if a claim is going to be made from it. At the end of the day there's no good reason on the R20 platform to not have the tokens visible for clarification at all times. Your excuse is a nonissue.

The party could fire through the forcecage walls easily enough but they can just ride out and ride back in. It's 20' in the air: Tiamat can't squeeze underneath it nor behind it; there just is no space. But the party can move underneath it just fine.

...Why can't she? The space is 20x20, a huge creature controls a space of 15x15. She can just squeeze into it, make her attacks at disadvantage and proceed to breath until everyone has fled or is dead.

Thank you for your view.

Instead of handwaving it, support your argument because the RAW (and I'd surely think RAI) doesn't.

Please review the map on turn 7. Tiamat is to the side when the party dimension doors to the other side of the map. She would have to dash to the walled area to breathe thus allowing the party to simply DD back in using the same Wall of Force and get a free set of attacks without Dodge.

She had literally just ran away, becuase it was incorrectly ruled that she couldn't do anything to the party.

They're above the party. 10' up then 10' down. Height is ill-defined in the game so I'm just taking normal horse height and character height: a normal horse is about 5' high and a human sans legs is about 3' so an adult human on horseback is under 10' high.

Actual height doesn't matter, controlled space matters, abstracting real world heights has no bearing here.

Thank you for your view.

I see a pattern emerging

I wanted to do it right with those numbers once. No point in leaving them unused. Like I said before, they're far from favourable: Couatl and Cleric acting so late is basically a wasted turn damage-wise, Wizard or Bard starting is better than Druid, etc.

If any of the following had gone first:

-Cleric

-Couatl

-Homunculus

-Owl

-Simul-Owl

-Giant Ape

-Tiamat

Then your wall defense against the first breath doesn't work. That's 7 out of 10 creatures in the initiative order. The initiative is plenty favourable and there's zero reason to change everything (by the looks of you rerolled the portents) but keep initiative in place. 'Doing it right with those numbers' doesn't make any sense to me, it wasn't like it was a challenging initiative to prove something against.

The initiative supported your strategy and also was the only thing that wasn't rerolled.

So with that it seems like this run didn't have any meaningful issues and thus we have conclusively proven that Tiamat is indeed quite beatable in her own arena regardless of her size for a level 14 PHB only no magic items party. Thank you for your cooperation.

There's plenty of issues with it, from incorrectly limiting the map, to incorrectly ruling she can't attack through a hole large enough to and various side things.

Saying thank you and talking like this was agreed to in anyway doesn't wipe away the issues. You've done this twice, I'll grant you this one doesn't have the glaring incorrect damage added like the first, but both runs are heavily marred by mistakes and favourable rulings.

You set out to prove that it was doable be a 14th level party, PHB only, no magic items. You had all the right conditions to make the best of it (literally nothing but downtime prep before the day and nothing else on the day) to amass a small army to constitute a 'party.'

Yet you've not really proven anything and certainly not proved what you set out to.

[Eldariel]

Yet you've not really proven anything and certainly not proved what you set out to.

You can say that but that doesn't really change anything. Feel free to run the test on your own if you want to use your rulings. All the relevant complaints have been addressed: the remaining stuff is at most something where a DM might rule one way or another (which is an endless swamp), and not impactful enough to sway the conclusion one way or another: Tiamat isn't worth CR 30 if it needs a favourable DM to fight a level 14 party.

Therefore we have shown that a level 14 PHB only no magic items party can take out Tiamat in her temple as per the module with resources to spare. This doesn't go for every party nor every run but they are heavy favourites to win [as evident in the resources left at the end of the fight], which indeed proves (even more so than her Forcecage weakness if ruled to 20' size) that Tiamat is way too weak for a CR30 even on the tactical scale.

[Chaos Jackal]

Thanks for taking the time to do this a second time over Eldariel.

Honestly, while I may not agree with every call made in the fight, or every ruling (though for the most part I don't really see an issue) fact is most of the things that can be challenged are minor or borderline inconsequential.

If a party with no magic items and access only to the PHB can essentially run over Tiamat with few if any meaningful rulings, then one can only imagine how much easier the fight would be with a bunch of magic items or expanded options going beyond the PHB. Especially in her adventure-given arena, where, as Eldariel pointed out, making her bigger hinders her movement. Would it be different in an open field? Perhaps, though given the ways PCs have of increasing their speed and the fact that longbow users with Sharpshooter can really do a number of her if she spends turns flying about/away I'm not sure how much better it is for the dragon. At least it eliminates the alcove hiding I guess.

Either way, to claim that the aforementioned nitpicking would radically alter the outcome and that Tiamat is a force to be reckoned with is to willfully ignore that the party really is limited. No items, lv14, PHB-only? It should be a stomp on Tiamat's side, or at least heavily favoring her. It's not the case. Even if you claim that the odds aren't in the party's favor, they still have a considerable chance. That's not a CR30 god. Far from it.

I'll have to agree with the conclusion once more. Tiamat needs a bump up.

[Eldariel]

Thanks for taking the time to do this a second time over Eldariel.

Honestly, while I may not agree with every call made in the fight, or every ruling (though for the most part I don't really see an issue) fact is most of the things that can be challenged are minor or borderline inconsequential.

If a party with no magic items and access only to the PHB can essentially run over Tiamat with few if any meaningful rulings, then one can only imagine how much easier the fight would be with a bunch of magic items or expanded options going beyond the PHB. Especially in her adventure-given arena, where, as Eldariel pointed out, making her bigger hinders her movement. Would it be different in an open field? Perhaps, though given the ways PCs have of increasing their speed and the fact that longbow users with Sharpshooter can really do a number of her if she spends turns flying about/away I'm not sure how much better it is for the dragon. At least it eliminates the alcove hiding I guess.

Either way, to claim that the aforementioned nitpicking would radically alter the outcome and that Tiamat is a force to be reckoned with is to willfully ignore that the party really is limited. No items, lv14, PHB-only? It should be a stomp on Tiamat's side, or at least heavily favoring her. It's not the case. Even if you claim that the odds aren't in the party's favor, they still have a considerable chance. That's not a CR30 god. Far from it.

I'll have to agree with the conclusion once more. Tiamat needs a bump up.

Wide open arena is even worse for her, I feel. Once the party casts Fly + Haste on both of the Bards, the rest of the party just has to avoid Tiamat while the Bards put her full of holes. If they maintain 400' range or thereabouts, Tiamat can't reach them regardless of her actions (her Dash rate is the same as the Bards' and the Bards have Dimension Door for mobility where necessary). The rest of the party can hole up in a Forcecage or also Dimension Door about while avoiding attacks. They need to replenish Haste in 10 rounds but that should only be necessary once.

Tiamat has a few options:
- Fly away as fast as possible to try and put distance between the party and the buffers so that the recasting of Haste will create a situation (probably usable vs. Forcecage hiding - 2400' in the 10 rounds would mean the rebuffing would take a while and it might be the Bards should just let Haste run out and finish it without Haste - though if Tiamat begins pulling away, the party can just Disintegrate the Cage and close in a bit)
- Try to chase the buffers (Forcecage would stop that though the Wizards could also try to keep distance with Dimension Doors)
- Try to chase one of the Bards (this would mean that one of the Bards would have to keep Dashing away meaning she's only taking 5 attacks consistently - but that still has her dying)
- Move slowly and try to Dodge (this probably falls prey to Major Image or Fog Cloud)

Overall, I think it's about the same: a dead Tiamat in ~11-15 rounds.