Killing Tiamat inside a Forcecage

[MaxWilson]

EDIT: Even the strongest counterargument can't deny that she could be 20'/20' in this edition. The fact that she could be something else is pretty irrelevant. As such, that's something you'll have to account for when analysing her by RAW regardless of what size you would make her personally.

I mean, that's true, but doesn't everyone pretty much realize at this point that that leads straight to her dying ugly and alone?

IMO the more interesting discussion is the other branch: assume Tiamat is pretty large, on the order of 100 to 200 yards long. Is that enough to make her as scary as Cthulhu? IMO no.

[Eldariel]

I mean, that's true, but doesn't everyone pretty much realize at this point that that leads straight to her dying ugly and alone?

IMO the more interesting discussion is the other branch: assume Tiamat is pretty large, on the order of 100 to 200 yards long. Is that enough to make her as scary as Cthulhu? IMO no.

I agree, but there seem to be people who don't believe that to be the case for reasons I cannot fathom. I didn't make her that big for my test but big enough (about as big as she can be given the environment). Her exact size matters less than her movement speed and her reach (given her written reach of 20', it obviously doesn't make very much sense for her to be incredibly big without also adjusting her reach and range...and her breath weapons begin to feel pretty anemic if she's four+ times as big as her longest breath). And when you're adjusting her reach and range, you're actually altering the statblock and buffing her directly. And of course, size is far from an advantage at many points: at realistic, massivee size she simply can't fit most places and most of her attacks are against cover, it's easy to disadvantage her, you can attack her from basically anywhere without problem or penalties, etc.

[Kane0]

So we’re all in agreement that Forcecage is a bad spell, yeah?

[Forum Explorer]

So I'm curious. What has lead you to believe that it be the case that I am arguing a point for my desire to be right? Moreover, what makes you believe that my argument be not sound and in good will? Perhaps the word "chump" is something I should've defined in the start or chosen a different, less loaded term like "weak": I believe our miscommunication with JNAProduction was resolved by defining what I meant or why I used the term. But that alone doesn't account for the amount of ill intent being attributed to me in this thread.

Because we are five pages in and you are still a very active participant in this thread. You've put a lot of effort into proving your point, to the point where you have both participating in and are running mock battles against Tiamat. You clearly care about this subject. As winning this argument is ultimately pointless as none of us are running the module right now, nor do any of us work for Wizards of the Coast and have even the smallest chance of actually editing Tiamat's statline, the only motive I can see for continuing to post is personal satisfaction.

Also because you came back with the insistence that Tiamat fitting in a force cage was RAW, makes me think it is more about being right than anything else.

To be clear, I don't think there is anything wrong or negative about arguing for your own satisfaction. It is a good mental exercise in my opinion and you end up learning things you might not have known before. But it does colour all of your arguments with a bias.

Though to be fair, I immediately lose a fair bit of...oh I don't know what the word is. But basically, I find calling something RAW to be rather pointless. What the DM actually would rule is much more important and relevant. So if the consensus seems to be that Tiamat would be too big for a forcecage, continuing to try to hold up RAW as a situation where she would fit is just a waste of time. Pretty much no one actually plays by pure RAW with no interpretations. It's almost impossible to actually do so simply because words can mean different things and the rulebook isn't written by lawyers.

So if you feel like I am attributing ill intent to you, then it is likely because of that.

[Eldariel]

Because we are five pages in and you are still a very active participant in this thread. You've put a lot of effort into proving your point, to the point where you have both participating in and are running mock battles against Tiamat. You clearly care about this subject. As winning this argument is ultimately pointless as none of us are running the module right now, nor do any of us work for Wizards of the Coast and have even the smallest chance of actually editing Tiamat's statline, the only motive I can see for continuing to post is personal satisfaction.

That battle is a hyperbole that has little to do with the original point though. Incidentally, it's also the main point that keeps me engaged in this discussion. It is an interesting hyperbole, as we discussed with Max, interesting enough that I wanted to test it out. Someone (I think it was PhoenixPhyre?) said that Tiamat was built when PHB wasn't released yet and thus latter power creep shouldn't be accounted for, which is fair enough. Someone else (I think it was Dork_Forge?) said that magic items aren't accounted for in CR, which is also fair enough. Then someone (I don't remember who) made the claim that it isn't possible for an organic level 14 party to take down Tiamat that doesn't fit in a Forcecage. These stipulations add up to a challenge that's pretty far removed from the original, but it also sounds non-obvious so it's worth testing out whether it can be done, and how much it requires (at the present it looks like "all the resources of a strong non-specifically built level 14 party suffice, but it is a rough fight"). I might be interested in running more of these in the future for different creatures (I'm thinking the Demon Lords) just to stress test the system a bit and see where the power level of the various creatures in combat lies when accounting for high-powered parties.

But the original question? I'm not terribly invested in it, though I'm still of course responding to everything that concerns me (as opposed to the point itself) and in the side, rehearse what's come up whenever old points get repeated (which tends to happen with some frequency here: not terribly efficient but perhaps somebody gets something out of it). For most of this thread (and the last one this spawned from) my interest was in seeing whether there actually was a counterexample or something that would further define sizes buried somewhere in the rules but it seems to me like that would've come up by now if that existed, so that point doesn't feel important to me anymore.

This actually opens up the broader hyperbole of why I (or anyone) might be participating in forum discussions in the first place. Part of it is of course social belonging of sorts, even though people might not realise it. Certainly an important contributor to the popularity of forums, social media, etc. and a powerful subconscious motivator. Another one is, at least in my case, the desire to gain and give knowledge. That is to say, in threads like these I'm looking to test ideas with others and see if others can see something I don't on whether something that feels like it oughtn't work works. On the other hand, I also try to offer similar information to others; that is, to increase the amount of knowledge in the whole forum population (and perhaps to even create something of use to others) and perhaps to even produce some useful collections of information for future use, increasing the knowledge base of the forum (of course, this being the goal doesn't mean it always pans out that way). Which of course has both social and intrinsic motivations: it's as much about gaining attention and respect (or infamy, just as good) as it is about the enlightenment-aspects (both, self-improvement and helping others learn more). One important motivator behind the "learning"-part is probably the kind of mathematical mindset that sees system as a matrix of information where I want the ability to solve given aspects, gaining satisfaction out of the act of solving complex problems within a framework.

[Jakinbandw]

EDIT: Even the strongest counterargument can't deny that she could be 20'/20' in this edition. The fact that she could be something else is pretty irrelevant. As such, that's something you'll have to account for when analysing her by RAW regardless of what size you would make her personally.

I can easily deny it. Her statblock comes from a module that depicts her on its cover. The cover is part of the scenario and thus needs to be accounted for. For this to be run truly RAW one would only need to work out her size from the picture on the front of the book. That said, it's clear that she is larger than a force cage.

Pictures are used in rules throughout the game so when we have an actual picture showing scale we can't ignore it, as doing so breaks raw as it ignores the rules.

[DrLoveMonkey]

Wow, so this is a custom build?

I mean, yes, you did just build the whole thing yourself. My last two parties were:

Evo wizard
Berserker barb
Ancients paladin
Horizon Walker ranger

And

Thief rogue
Dragon Sorcerer
Bladelock
Samurai fighter


I don’t think either of those would have a good time against a full strength Tiamat at level 14.

[PhoenixPhyre]

There's more of a definition for point A (her size being 20'/20') than anything else. In the absence of anything else, that's not a bad base to go off. Further, if her ability to survive a single level 7 spell hinges on her size being something specific and bigger than the baseline given, I don't think that speaks highly of her strength. A divine being should definitely have more options to deal with stuff like that, whether in a human or a draconic form of whatever size. If making her a 20'/20' makes her weak and the rules say she could very well be 20'/20', then she is weak even if you make her something else. But I digress, this is of course a discussion we'll never reach an agreement on since you're as firmly entrenched in your position as I am in mine. Thank you for the sparring though.

EDIT: Even the strongest counterargument can't deny that she could be 20'/20' in this edition. The fact that she could be something else is pretty irrelevant. As such, that's something you'll have to account for when analysing her by RAW regardless of what size you would make her personally.

There isn't more evidence for 20x20. Because that's here size category which only and exclusively refers to area controlled. Not longest dimension, not volume, not physical size. And forcecage (to repeat a point you've studiously ignored) only cares about the latter. Physical size. Which is (for her) only defined through context. Heck, any listed dimension for physical size would be wrong--the answer to the question "does she fit in a force cage" and the answer to the question "what is her largest dimension" aren't necessarily the same. She might fit if she's curled up into a minimum-size ball, while if she's stretched out she wouldn't fit. A fire giant is (slightly) under 20' tall, so he fits, right? But what if he's raising his hand? Or is tall for a fire giant? A storm giant is roughly 26' tall, so he doesn't fit, right? What if he's sitting down?

Therefore, the answer to "does she fit in a forcecage" can only be "ask your DM". It's not something RAW at all.

And analyzing anything by RAW is utterly pointless. Because the DM is a critical moving part of the game, without which the game does not exist. It'd be like analyzing a video game by looking at the content of the AI scripts and the art assets without the actual game engine involved.

[Eldariel]

I mean, yes, you did just build the whole thing yourself. My last two parties were:

Evo wizard
Berserker barb
Ancients paladin
Horizon Walker ranger

And

Thief rogue
Dragon Sorcerer
Bladelock
Samurai fighter


I don’t think either of those would have a good time against a full strength Tiamat at level 14.

Yup, but neither of those is a particularly strong party either. Indeed, both have about a half of characters in weak or average classes and very few truly powerful options and the builds are likely not very optimised either. So those are simply not optimised. Which is fine as a baseline but at no point has the claim been made that a weak, random or even "average" level 14 party could beat it; just that a strong one could, disqualifying both. It's possible for a party to be organic and optimised, organic and unoptimised, specially built and optimised or specially build and unoptimised. That is to say, organichood and optimisation are not on the same axis - they're independent and of course depend on table style and player system mastery.

Though if we're talking about the original point of the thread in Forcecaging Tiamat, both parties (depending on magic items, spell selection, etc.) probably would have a reasonable shot at being able to kill her using it but without it, I agree that they would probably go down pretty easily. But that just speaks for the amount of spread in power in this game (and especially on this level); most high CR threats would probably wipe the floor with those parties and that isn't a feature of said threats but just the parties not having that strong of a set of options for combat.

[MaxWilson]

I agree, but there seem to be people who don't believe that to be the case for reasons I cannot fathom. I didn't make her that big for my test but big enough (about as big as she can be given the environment). Her exact size matters less than her movement speed and her reach (given her written reach of 20', it obviously doesn't make very much sense for her to be incredibly big without also adjusting her reach and range...and her breath weapons begin to feel pretty anemic if she's four+ times as big as her longest breath). And when you're adjusting her reach and range, you're actually altering the statblock and buffing her directly. And of course, size is far from an advantage at many points: at realistic, massivee size she simply can't fit most places and most of her attacks are against cover, it's easy to disadvantage her, you can attack her from basically anywhere without problem or penalties, etc.

Excellent points about reach, etc. You're correct that that implies a relatively small Tiamat still. I didn't check to see how large you made her but I'm guessing something on the order of maybe 50' long by 40' wide?

[Eldariel]

Excellent points about reach, etc. You're correct that that implies a relatively small Tiamat still. I didn't check to see how large you made her but I'm guessing something on the order of maybe 50' long by 40' wide?

For simplicity I kept her size square and made her 50'/50' with 20' reach and the usual 90'/120' breath weapon. 40'/40' would've probably been fine too, but might as well make her a bit more impressive. That feels about consistent: about the size of the Tarrasque with similar reach (Tarrasque is stated to be 50' tall and 70' long). It also fits the environment where she's being summoned so that also adds up (though of course, any smaller size works too - but bigger sizes begin to have trouble with her fitting there as the levels are only 50' high - even 50'/50' is pushing it as it basically means if she's 50' tall she has to land to pass to the chapels, though I've handwaved that in my test by making level 1 60' high instead).

[Dork_Forge]

An amusing thought occurred to me about the various ways Tiamat could actually choose to handle a fight including the following:

-If a party cannot fly or effect her from extreme range, there's nothing stopping her from just ascending and taking a breather most of the time, in battles of attrition the party with Regeneration is the one with the edge

-She could literally body slam entire parties, simply fall (both her and the characters taking fall damage), with her then dodging and flying back up 60ft, positioned to breathe

[langal]

An amusing thought occurred to me about the various ways Tiamat could actually choose to handle a fight including the following:

-If a party cannot fly or effect her from extreme range, there's nothing stopping her from just ascending and taking a breather most of the time, in battles of attrition the party with Regeneration is the one with the edge

-She could literally body slam entire parties, simply fall (both her and the characters taking fall damage), with her then dodging and flying back up 60ft, positioned to breathe

Totally right. I haven't read this whole thread but one can't white room Tiamat in some enclosed space where a wall of stone would essentially end the fight. She can fly and is smarter than any of the PCs. While I wouldn't quite metagame her actions it would be pretty close to that. She can just hover and breathe right?

[Dork_Forge]

Totally right. I haven't read this whole thread but one can't white room Tiamat in some enclosed space where a wall of stone would essentially end the fight. She can fly and is smarter than any of the PCs. While I wouldn't quite metagame her actions it would be pretty close to that. She can just hover and breathe right?

Yeah, if desired (and a party is attempting to use mobility against her) she can just dash for 240' fly movement to position herself for whatever breath weapons she wants to use.

[MaxWilson]

Totally right. I haven't read this whole thread but one can't white room Tiamat in some enclosed space where a wall of stone would essentially end the fight. She can fly and is smarter than any of the PCs. While I wouldn't quite metagame her actions it would be pretty close to that. She can just hover and breathe right?

Well, the problem though is that when you have limited options, sometimes all Intelligence can let you do is calculate your rapidly-worsening odds of escape. If Tiamat had Teleport or something, her high Int would make her an absolute strategic monster. As it stands... if a cabal of four archmages decided to take out Tiamat, there is relatively little she could do about it. The problem with the module is that a cabal of archmages and dragons does decide to take out Tiamat, but it's an adventure path so somehow the PCs wind up becoming central to the effort, and those archmages and dragons basically don't do anything--they don't even Simulacrum the PCs out of courtesy to double their DPR, how rude!

[PattThe]

Well, the problem though is that when you have limited options, sometimes all Intelligence can let you do is calculate your rapidly-worsening odds of escape. If Tiamat had Teleport or something, her high Int would make her an absolute strategic monster. As it stands... if a cabal of four archmages decided to take out Tiamat, there is relatively little she could do about it. The problem with the module is that a cabal of archmages and dragons does decide to take out Tiamat, but it's an adventure path so somehow the PCs wind up becoming central to the effort, and those archmages and dragons basically don't do anything--they don't even Simulacrum the PCs out of courtesy to double their DPR, how rude!

Maybe in-world her 28 charisma and unheard of (for 5e) 240ft Frightening Presence is meat to the notion of supposing that your PC's are the only people who don't start crying just looking at her, regardless of whether or not an NPC mage could just give themself a buff spell for the wisdom check. I mean, it's not like anyone in that army is remembering to cast heroism on the actually important people.

On the notion of her charisma, shouldn't that stat (and the five heads to shout from for miles) represent that even if a party got her in a forcecage, she would still be able to call for Dragons and command her forces and taunt the various factions into turning to her side or to charge close enough for her to massacre infront of the party. Or even better, how wise is your Forcecage caster?
Could your caster resist the urge to end the spell early when they see Tiamat reel back, keel over, and fake falling in battle? Or worse, begin baiting the party with very real riches you might be interested in. "Oh you found a flametongue sword how cute, how about you and the five of I get out of this material plane and get you a real blade. Come on, drop the spell and I promise to get you a +5 Holy Avenger Vorpal blade on your birthday."

[Eldariel]

Maybe in-world her 28 charisma and unheard of (for 5e) 240ft Frightening Presence is meat to the notion of supposing that your PC's are the only people who don't start crying just looking at her, regardless of whether or not an NPC mage could just give themself a buff spell for the wisdom check. I mean, it's not like anyone in that army is remembering to cast heroism on the actually important people.

On the notion of her charisma, shouldn't that stat (and the five heads to shout from for miles) represent that even if a party got her in a forcecage, she would still be able to call for Dragons and command her forces and taunt the various factions into turning to her side or to charge close enough for her to massacre infront of the party. Or even better, how wise is your Forcecage caster?
Could your caster resist the urge to end the spell early when they see Tiamat reel back, keel over, and fake falling in battle? Or worse, begin baiting the party with very real riches you might be interested in. "Oh you found a flametongue sword how cute, how about you and the five of I get out of this material plane and get you a real blade. Come on, drop the spell and I promise to get you a +5 Holy Avenger Vorpal blade on your birthday."

Well, in her apse where nobody can see her except the allies she so cunningly ate and the people killing her, I don't think the chances of her commanding any creatures are very good since said creatures can't probably even hear her (the Temple is pretty big and thick and she lacks long range telepathy of any kind because why would a god be telepathic?) meaning they might not even be aware of her existence or the ritual being completed (plus they're probably busy with the PCs' army of metallic dragons, archmagi and such). And the PCs...well, curiously her only proficiencies are in Arcana, Religion and Perception so she's actually way worse of a persuader than the Bard in my party for example (who has +13 and easy access to Enhance Ability whereas Tiamat has +9 Persuasion: all the presence, but none of the skill) - my example party has two (telepathic) characters with +10 Insight so she'd have to roll really well and both of them would have to roll really poorly for the PCs to fall for it.

I do think that's a good argument for giving her charm/mind altering powers though: this is indeed precisely why I suggested those "Majestic Presence" and "Fearsome Presence"-abilities for her statblock earlier. They would actually encapsulate her being a true divinity with all that entails. One doesn't simply stand up to a deity like to a random Orc. Indeed, I think that's one of the biggest failings of the statblock (well, alongside not even giving her proficiency in any Charisma-skills).

[Kane0]

Doesnt this ultimately come back to ‘if it has a statblock it can be killed’ ?
Also wasnt this really early on in 5e’s lifespan, with just the core books and relatively little experience amongst the campaign writers? HotDQ didnt even have the MM/DMG to work with IIRC.

Not saying its excusable, but perhaps more understandable to have such a... lacklustre statblock by our standards at this point.

[Eldariel]

Doesnt this ultimately come back to ‘if it has a statblock it can be killed’ ?

Well, not in this case. The original point is that basically any party with a ranged attacker and the ability to cast Forcecage can defeat her. Which is way easier than "if it has stats, it can be killed". The aside is about a core only not-specifically-built no magic items level 14 party can kill her, which is again way, way more specific. There's a huge difference between level 15 and 14 parties, parties with and without magic items, parties built for a challenge and not built for a challenge.

In this case, I'd argue that Forcecage potentially beating her and a level 14 party having a reasonable shot at defeating her is definitely an argument in favour of not just "she has stats and can this be killed" but her statblock being very weak for what it should be and in need of serious buffs in many ways. It's possible to, especially in a numerically bounded system like 5e, to design statblocks that can't be beat by lower level PCs. Tiamat just isn't it.

[Jakinbandw]

In this case, I'd argue that Forcecage potentially beating her and a level 14 party having a reasonable shot at defeating her is definitely an argument in favour of not just "she has stats and can this be killed" but her statblock being very weak for what it should be and in need of serious buffs in many ways. It's possible to, especially in a numerically bounded system like 5e, to design statblocks that can't be beat by lower level PCs. Tiamat just isn't it.

You can't forcecage her because she is bigger than 20x20. Look at her on the cover of the book. Are you really ignoring the official art? Saying she can be defeated by forcecage is intentionally misreading the scenario.

[Valmark]

You can't forcecage her because she is bigger than 20x20. Look at her on the cover of the book. Are you really ignoring the official art? Saying she can be defeated by forcecage is intentionally misreading the scenario.

I mean... The statblock is also ignoring the cover art since her maximum reach in melee is 25 feet only (the tail).

Speaking of which, for what's worth wyrmlings have a maximum reach of 5 feet, youngs have a mr of 10 feet, adults of 15 and ancients of 20 feet (assuming all dragons are like that, I didn't check them all).

With a maximum reach of 25 feet on the tail it's reasonable that she wouldn't fit in a Forcecage just barely, but she's likely not much bigger then what she'd have to be.


EDIT: On a side note I find it very funny that the monster manual talks about Tiamata's "formidable spellcasting"- a level 7 cleric spell three times a day. Formidable.

[Eldariel]

Well, for those who care I finished the fight between Tiamat and a level 14 party.

Spoiler: Outro for those who care

Show

Tactical blunders did occur as is to be expected. Turn 6 is especially bad: Wizard Simulacrum should've used more resources and dropping Haste in a place without a protective Wall was just bad - lead to the Bard getting straight-up killed with poor roll on Dex save, natural 1 on Cha save and Tiamat rolling 20 points over average on the breath weapon damage - but I figured the party wanted to finish it quickly seeing Tiamat so hurt. But ultimately, burning just about all the big resources (including a Forcecage not to trap the Tiamat but to complete a barrier created by Wall of Force!) the party came out victorious with one Raise Dead off their shoulders after the fight. And the Giant Ape died for good - it was worse than useless here, giving Tiamat conveniently timed Legendary Actions.

Rules mistakes were made (as is to be expected when running this like this): I forgot about Couatl's Leadership ability working after changing shape so I retroactively made it change into Orc War Chief, and I forgot about Tiamat's Magic Resistance so I had her use way too many Legendary Resistances (I retroactively rolled these back, not that they were likely to matter unless she actually ran out opening her up to Plane Shift) and I retroactively Divine Worded the Bard dead since I forgot it's a bonus action.

But ultimately I believe it's about a fair account: Tiamat is a beatable if rough fight for a strong level 14 PHB only no magic items party. It favours the party (and would favour it more if the players didn't make retarded decisions, but the decision trees get rather complex with essentially 5 casters juggling Concentrations and protections and only one character really dealing damage, though Whirlwind did add up to a fair bit too and Cloud of Daggers would have if the Simulacrum hadn't been forced to use Forcecage to prevent Tiamat from getting inside the bubble). Tiamat could've killed the Cleric and probably the Druid too at one point (doesn't really matter, the party has 4 characters capable of casting Raise Dead or similar) but I played it as her trying her best to win the fight: those choices would've gotten her killed much faster.

It's also a huge headache to play 5 relatively complex characters (4 casters + Couatl) and a monster with relevant decision trees at the same time.

What I learned:

- I feel the dice favoured Tiamat a bit. The attacks were landing a bit less than was probable (including that ridiculous triple advantage +2d4 turn with 1 reroll and still 3 misses), she was rolling higher on her breath weapon damage than was probable, etc. E.g. the breath that killed Cleric did so by 2 points of damage and 6 points more than average. The Bard breath did 20 (!!) points more than average with 16 dice which is just ridiculous. But ultimately, it just cost the party basically all of the Wizard Simulacrum's resources. However, while the party had bad luck with some attacks (towards the end it evened out with a total of 3 crits after ~30 attacks with none) they did make all their important saves so this probably wasn't all that impactful.

- Spiritual Weapon just isn't all that good for a fight like this. I kinda knew it but still, the party would've been much better off propping the Cleric to cast like Inflict Wounds with Portent to land it (of course, a 20 on Portent would've made this twice as good). SW was just a waste of time: even the Inspiration needed to land that third hit would've probably been better off on the other Bard.

- Inspiration and Sharpshooter is a really sweet combo. I knew it of course, but I wasn't expecting to get this much out of it against a 25 AC enemy that frequently has the luxury of using Dodge, especially without Archery style.

- Wall positioning...could've been a lot better. It's easy to block her from entering areas at all since she's so big and with two Walls it's easy to make a cover she attack past at all while still being able to attack (and she can't really run from Hasted Bardchers with Sharpshooter due to being so big either). But this was played almost like an open arena except with limited mobility distance for the party - another handicap.

- Battle Magic was surprisingly important. It added up to a lot of attacks over the fight with Dimension Door + Battle Magic and Elemental Weapon VII + Battle Magic (obviously Simulacrums don't spend high value long duration resources as prep since they obviously only use those slots when absolutely necessary).

- Cleric's ranged offensive weakness was highlighted. Mostly she contributed Death Wards and Aids and Heroes' Feast and Conjure Celestial. Which were all huge but she could've been so much more if she had useful attacks (Xanathar's would've given her Holy Weapon and Tasha's Summon Celestial, which would've been iterative improvements). Of course, half of the problem is the fact that she got exposed way earlier than intended due to some poor play and thus instead of being a HP battery just had to protect herself. Couatl was able to pick up the Bless duty though which made this less relevant.

- Druid's too to a degree though Haste and Whirlwind did do a fair bit of job so it's not fair to say he didn't have power but much of it was because the arena forced Tiamat to get hit by Whirlwind again and again. The open arena would've made it harder (in this regard but would've of course made kiting almost trivial: 600' Dimension Doors would've taken Tiamat 3 turns to reach instead of 1 and in an even more open space Druid/Wizard/Wizard/Cleric just cast Haste + Fly IV + Haste + Bless while hanging around in e.g. Forcecage, Bards just Dimension Door out and kite her dead at 260' Fly speed with Haste Dash probably opening up plenty of Haste attacks for one or the other too just DDing back when needing second Haste), Shepherd would've probably done better (no need for Inspiring Leader and damaging summons) and made Tiamat much more wary of coming close. I didn't use Conjure Animals at all since I know how controversial the spell is due to how it can be really strong or really weak depending on how much your DM hates you/the spell.

- After the fight, with a short rest, the party is actually largely fine once the Bard gets picked up. The Cleric heals everyone to half, they get Inspiring Leader THP from the Druid, they still have plenty of Elemental Weapon slots left on the Archers (though the Bard needs Revivify once the Cleric is gotten up), Wizard gets to Arcane Recovery a couple of slots, their long duration spells are still gonna be running, Druid gets to Natural Recovery a couple of slots, etc. Obviously they couldn't take another threat of this calibre but they could take on plenty of CR14 threats still and potentially even a Deadly or two (depending on the exact enemy).

[PhoenixPhyre]

I mean... The statblock is also ignoring the cover art since her maximum reach in melee is 25 feet only (the tail).

Speaking of which, for what's worth wyrmlings have a maximum reach of 5 feet, youngs have a mr of 10 feet, adults of 15 and ancients of 20 feet (assuming all dragons are like that, I didn't check them all).

With a maximum reach of 25 feet on the tail it's reasonable that she wouldn't fit in a Forcecage just barely, but she's likely not much bigger then what she'd have to be.


EDIT: On a side note I find it very funny that the monster manual talks about Tiamata's "formidable spellcasting"- a level 7 cleric spell three times a day. Formidable.

Reach starts at the edge of your space, not the center. So a reach of 25 feet on a 50x50 body (numbers chosen arbitrarily) is different than 25 foot reach on a 5x5 body.

A tail reach of 25' means her tail can hit something 25' from her square area of control. Which suggests she's bigger than 20', since her body isn't less than 5 ft. An estimate of her total length would be tail reach + bite reach + x (body size, which is unknown but not zero).

[BerzerkerUnit]

Reach starts at the edge of your space, not the center. So a reach of 25 feet on a 50x50 body (numbers chosen arbitrarily) is different than 25 foot reach on a 5x5 body.

A tail reach of 25' means her tail can hit something 25' from her square area of control. Which suggests she's bigger than 20', since her body isn't less than 5 ft. An estimate of her total length would be tail reach + bite reach + x (body size, which is unknown but not zero).

I'm starting to this a creature's space is intended to be just the area a similarly sized creature can't reasonably move into or through because too much of it is occupied by the creature's body.

Since an Ogre can walk through tiamat's space (or she can step over one, I can't remember if the rule works both ways), we know from the description and art she's a broad torso'd wyvern type, I think it's fair to assume her legs probably keep her about 10 feet off the ground, her back could rise a foot or 2 into the 25 foot block above but not enough to prevent a cloud giant from flying through it that close. Width of the body would be expanded to accommodate 5 necks and heads of gargantuan dragons, so she's probably at least 15 across (assuming a kind of
"olympic rings" orientation for neck arrangement) before shoulders and hips which could add another 5 on either side.

Obviously her heads are swinging much farther above and around, same for tail and wings. Since all of those elements are probably in perpetual motion to counterbalance each other so she remains bipedal and upright, that might explain why she was only given a 20ft block. You can't count on the heads, tail, or wings to stay in one place long enough to obstuct a creature's movement significantly.

My personal belief about her size though is that Grid combat wasn't considered a core assumption for this edition (to distance it from 4th) and that size categories were going to be considered more fluid (to distance it from 3rd) and Gargantuan was going to be "anything too big to really interact with normally" Leading to rules in the DMG written for fights with exceptionally large creatures you climbed onto. But by the time those were published the community had already codified Gargantuan is 20x20 even though literally every Giant description makes it clear they are all nearly 20 feet tall and every huge creature's reach indicates they are taller or longer than their statblock.

Forcecage isn't a bad spell, it's just not written with the "natural language" approach a lot of the rest of 5e was. If they instead said "This spell creates a cage that traps 1 Gargantuan or smaller creature or creates a cage 20ft on a side, its application would be obvious, the Tarrasque could be bound and we'd call it a day. But its very clear the cage is supposed to be limited to 20 feet on a side and the the rest of the rules regarding size and reach make it clear, that's probably not going to be big enough.

I've maintained that an organically built party that comes into this encounter as is will probably fail, even with Forcecage as an option. An organically built party that plans to face tiamat at full power can probably win, but there would have to be some shenanigans (simulacrum for another concentration buff or an extra days worth of healing, etc).

[Chaos Jackal]

snip

Do you think that, in a PHB-only environment, the Cleric is replaceable? The long-term buffs are excellent, of course, but like you noted once the fight actually started they didn't get to do much.

Also, it was early on in the fight, but I gotta say, I expected the breaths not fully damaging the wall of stone to be a more important point of contention. Turns out it doesn't matter too much though.

As a supporter of Tiamat's statblock being disappointing, I admit, it turned out to be harder than I imagined. Of course, like you yourself noted, the restrictions are quite many. The expanded spell lists for all the classes could've made a massive difference here, and stuff like Bladesinger could potentially achieve a lot more than Valor (though I'll say, the bard did turn out better than I thought).

Thanks for taking the time to run this.

[MaxWilson]

Well, for those who care I finished the fight between Tiamat and a level 14 party.

I may have missed something, but I was surprised to see so many rounds of Tiamat fighting at half health. What prevented her from backing off (Dashing away) for sixth seconds or so to regenerate back to full health? Why did she kamikaze herself to death?

[Eldariel]

Do you think that, in a PHB-only environment, the Cleric is replaceable? The long-term buffs are excellent, of course, but like you noted once the fight actually started they didn't get to do much.

Also, it was early on in the fight, but I gotta say, I expected the breaths not fully damaging the wall of stone to be a more important point of contention. Turns out it doesn't matter too much though.

As a supporter of Tiamat's statblock being disappointing, I admit, it turned out to be harder than I imagined. Of course, like you yourself noted, the restrictions are quite many. The expanded spell lists for all the classes could've made a massive difference here, and stuff like Bladesinger could potentially achieve a lot more than Valor (though I'll say, the bard did turn out better than I thought).

Thanks for taking the time to run this.

Well, if we do a quick list of stipulations favouring Tiamat that would not apply to real game here:
- Real game would not feature starting distances of 60' for a fight like this [we're taking the minimum level from the adventure but then ignoring all the advantages the party can get and the free 10 rounds of prep they get if they do let Tiamat through without contest - it has nothing to do with the original context at that point; imagine Blesses and Leaderships and Hastes and such were up by the time Tiamat appeared and she appeared like 150' in the air without the ability to LA breathe before moving, it'd have been a massacre]
- Real game would not have a level 14 party without Magic Items (martial classes would be SCREWED otherwise)
- Real game would have Magic Jar accessible
- Real game would probably not be core only

Further, Initiative was quite unlucky (optimal would be Force waller > Buffers > Attackers but we got Stone waller > Attacker > Buffer > Attacker > Buffer) and this highlighted much of what I hate about 5e Initiative and Legendary Actions: Tiamat breaths not being Actions not her having meaningful Reactions really screwed her over. She doesn't even have a chance of hitting when the shields are down, no checks or anything (not that her Dex checks would be anything to write home about anyways). And Legendary Actions + no way to delay/skip turns means it can be actively detrimental to have extra allies; the Cleric would've almost certainly been better off staying home. Too much of Initiative is down to the luck of the roll and no tools aside from Portent to fix it. I would never play by RAW Initiative normally. Then there's the whole "Familiars have their own turns, Simulacrums act on others' turn, Summons have their own turn except when they don't"-pile of nonsense confusion too, which interacts particularly poorly with Legendary Actions.

The biggest mistake was dropping Concentration on Haste so poorly. My party tried to finish her off burning resources even though it was risky play and that was the consequence. Could've easily just cast domed Wall of Force (or DDd back to the last one), dropped Haste and taken a turn off (all it would cost is 30 HP of Regen), but I didn't want to do over since there's more margin for error than that. But ya, of course Tiamat can kill a helpless character with no protection over one and a half rounds.

Also, lacking Absorb Elements was of course huge. As was lacking Magic Jar; this meant less Cha for Bards (given how much damage Inspiration added up to making those Sharpshooter attacks hit, this was actually quite huge), less Dex and no real offensive martial ability for Wizards and less HP for Simulacrums.

EDIT: Regarding the level of play

Spoiler

Show

But to be clear, the play here was way below my level due to having to DM and play so many complex characters at once and due to constantly being pressed for time (including having a 3yo frequently "help" me out while playing). If I had only one character to play and 3 other experienced players with decent system mastery to play the others and a DM to the same effect, the play would've been of far higher quality, let alone if I had been able to focus fully on the game and take the time I needed. But the cognitive load of having to manage the whole scenario and all the characters and monsters combined with duress lead to straight-up stupid mistakes.

Further, no acclimation to these characters. I'm pretty confident in the decision paths of the Diviners and the Cleric (aside from the Inflict Wounds/Spiritual Weapon choice), but the decision paths (and prep) of the Druid and the Bards leave a lot to be desired. That's simply because I haven't played these particular characters and certainly not this particular party before so the decision making process is completely unoptimised and I'm not sufficiently familiar with all the relevant tactics and options of these parties to make correct plays under this amount of duress.

In short, my own estimate would be that mechanically I'm generally a fairly solid player. Not a Master by any means, but say I were in the 1900's or low 2000's normally, this play would be closer to 1300's level (someone who knows basic rules and has a basic idea of tactics but generally relies on gimmicks and has little idea of strategy beyond "center is important" in Chess) and that's mostly due to the nature of this exercise. It's simply too much effort for too little gain to strive for tight mechanical play with this amount of complexity for what amounts to proof of concept. It would've taken about 4 times as long had I stopped for a minute or two to think through each character's turn and then played them out and wrote them down and played on the map instead of just trying to think through the whole team's turns at once followed by Tiamat's turn so I'd be here 4 weeks from now with the amount of time I have available for this right now. Especially since I have to switch tactical view between decision-making process for each character.

This goes for both, mechanics (I did forget a lot of things due to the amount of moving parts and the dearth of time to focus) and decision making of course, but mechanics I tried to correct retroactively where I could (and decision-making as far as it was doable without completely changing the course of the game: I went and readded Divine Words and Couatl transformations since they simply added actions where old ones were empty instead of replacing weaker actions with superior ones - turn 1 party positioning [when protecting party with Walls, squeezing is a must; the Wall was way overtaxed which killed the Ape], turn 2-3 party/Wall of Force positioning [these should be as far from the center as possible to make room for Dimension Dooring] and turn 6 Haste dropping/positioning [should never drop Haste without protection for the lethargied character] are massive mistakes costing the party a character each but ones I didn't want to replay them since it'd be just a completely different game at that point).

In short, if the party were played welled, it'd be far cleaner, far less risky, and far fewer resources burnt on average. Probably nobody downed, quite possibly no breath weapons landing, etc. But the Initiative would make a huge difference too of course.

[Willowhelm]

I have been following this thread since the start but I may have missed someone else posting this.

This is how things played out in a totally different group 6 years ago. I think this is fairly representative of how “normal” players might play?

https://youtu.be/4hSjPNxtYcw

There are plenty of mistakes made throughout. Again I think that is fairly normal.

[Eldariel]

I may have missed something, but I was surprised to see so many rounds of Tiamat fighting at half health. What prevented her from backing off (Dashing away) for sixth seconds or so to regenerate back to full health? Why did she kamikaze herself to death?

600' attack range and 50'/100' vertical dimension (by the book; I ran it as 60'/120' but didn't make much difference) + size. She's attackable by PCs pretty much regardless of positioning; only compounded by the Bards having Longstrider and Haste on them (and Wizards being able to cast Fly or DD on any free round). Any round of dashing away is thus two free rounds of (probably advantageous due to Major Image) attacking for the PCs. In fact due to PC mobility this goes almost regardless of terrain:her only chance is taking at least one (and it turns out both) of the damage dealers out before escaping.

Portent and Lucky also match up exceptionally well against Dodge (though I didn't utilise Lucky RAW since I wouldn't allow it in my table), meaning Dodge wasn't all that valuable. Indeed, Bless + Leadership does too - getting a lot of bonuses (what amounts to +5 on average with decent average tendency due to two dice means they're rolling for 8 to hit which drops the Disadvantage value significantly) makes disadvantage far less relevant. The Couatl never got to use Fog Cloud to negate Disadvantage due to turn order, actually.

Couatl positioning was one of the biggest problems in Initiative Order: it's a pure buffer/utility creature but its buffs are always one turn late (acting behind the whole party) with the way the Initiative shook out. Which is a pain since it actually moves at 100' so it keeps up with Phantom Steeds just fine and isn't much behind Tiamat either. Acting just behind Tiamat (meaning it has to predict Tiamat's move if it's relevant) is the worst possible place for it and of course, since readied actions screw spellcasters over (taking Concentration meaning you can't ready spells if Concentrating on something without dropping it, and there's no way to drop Initiative instead; that's why there needed to be two Wallers most of the time instead of one), there's no way to fix that by RAW.

[Eldariel]

Sorry for the doublepost, but I added the missing images to the posts in the combat thread.

Now, updated list of my problems with the Tiamat statblock:

- No reason to use Poison breath pretty much ever. Poison immunity was actually irrelevant since she only gets two breaths per any given turn and she has two higher damage cones that deal less resisted damage types. She doesn't have a way of knowing of it but it didn't even matter.

- Inability to use breaths as an action. This means inability to ready action to use breaths which means they occur at set intervals.

- Inability to move as a Legendary Action.

- Such useless spellcasting. The only use for Divine Word is to bypass deathgate and kill characters outright, which can be valuable but deities are supposedly quite magical (even granting spells to Clerics) so the idea that she could only cast one spell is preposterous.

- Breaths are so uninteresting. They don't damage objects, Cold-breath uses Dex-save for whatever reason (screw consistency, am I right?), let alone having some interesting riders.

- She doesn't have any broad effects on the world or around her. Her greatest AOE is the 240' fear effect. That's piddly squat. Someone is a football field (~410 feet) away? Our mighty god is less able to affect them than a commoner with a Longbow. Let alone actual combat ranges: real medieval Longbow had an effective range of ~1000'.

- As ThePatt pointed out, her skills really need help.


Let's rewrite her:
- HP/saves/regen/etc. are largely fine. Could use slightly lower save DCs (those are really high for a bounded accuracy system meaning few characters even get to roll) but it does pan out of 8 + 10 Con + 9 Prof. And they are doable if you are proficient and have maxed stat and some magical bonuses.

- Her physical attacks need help. The claw/claw/tail routine just isn't all that. She at least needs to be able to Bite in lieu of her attack action.

- She needs the option of breathing on her turn, and I think it'd be pretty cool for a 5-headed Dragon to have some kind of combination breath weapon. Something with a Recharge 6 that just obliterates things.

- She's a Dragon. She should have Blindsight.

- Let's expand her spellcasting to make her feel like a deity capable of granting spells. I like my previous additions of Fearsome presence and Majestic presence but if we're to make her a God they should have more range than half a football field.

Spoiler: Shin Tiamat Statblock

Show

Tiamat
BWAAARGH, I'M A DRAGON GOD!

Gargantuan (50'/50'/50') Dragon

AC: 25
HP: 615 (30d20)
Skills: Arcana (+17), Religion (+17), History (+17), Insight (+26), Perception (+26), Persuasion (+19), Intimidate (+28), Deception (+19)
Damage immunities: Chromatic dragon immunities
Damage resistances: Radiant & necrotic (she's a god)
Condition Immunities: Blinded, charmed, deafened, frightened, poisoned, stunned
Senses: Darkvision 600', Blindsight 240', Truesight 240' [Dragons are unusually perceptive, a Dragon God should be absurdly so], Arcane Sight 240' [able to discern magical auras, their strength and school as per Detect Magic]
Languages: Draconic, all languages (as per permanent Tongues)

Discorporation: Sure, whatever

Magic Weapons: Yeah, obviously

Limited Magic Immunity: Sure, as written.

Legendary Resistance: Sure, 5/day.

Reactive: Sure, she can take a reaction per turn. Further, let's say she has an extra Reaction per turn so she can take 1/round and one each turn. Other stuff is irrelevant: she's already immune to stunning and basically nothing causing unconsciousness offers a save anyways.

Regeneration: Regen 30

Fearsome presence: Even those immune to being frightened might cower before Tiamat. Immunity to fear only amounts to advantage on the saving throw against this. Everyone within 10 miles of Tiamat aware of who can sense her (her voice can reach up to 10 miles if she wishes) must roll a DC 27 Wisdom-save against being frightened for 1 hour. Without immunity, a character frightened this way can only cower. Character can repeat the save at the end of each of their rounds. A character who succeeds their save has advantage on iterative saves, but must keep making saves every round. Tiamat can turn this ability on and off as a reaction but it can only force a save once per round.

Majestic presence: Every being within 1 mile of Tiamat must roll a Charisma-save (DC25) or be charmed by her and prostrate themself before her (prone, unable to take actions other than look in awe). She is a god. Those who succeed on this save are immune to this effect for the next 24 hours.

Innate spellcasting: All spells are Charisma-based (DC 25).
At-will: Thaumaturgy, Prestidigitation, Detect Magic (no Concentration, constantly active), Major Image (as 6th level spell), Mass Suggestion (as 9th level spell), Command (as a 5th level spell), Charm Monster, Geas, Dominate Monster, Power Word: Pain, Dispel Magic, Counterspell, Magic Circle
3/day: Power Word: Heal, Power Word: Kill, Power Word: Stun, Divine Word, Dimension Door, Planar Ally (any Abishai or Chromatic Dragon, no payment required), True Polymorph
1/day: Wish, Gate, Antimagic Field, Antilife Shell

Actions:
Multiattack: Tiamat can either Bite and use two Claw attacks or use one Claw and Tail attack.

Bite: +19 to hit, reach 20 ft., one target. Hit: 32 (4d10 + 10) piercing damage plus 14 (4d6) acid damage (black dragon head), lightning damage (blue dragon head), poison damage (green dragon head), fire damage (red dragon head), or cold damage (white dragon head). Large or smaller target hit is restrained (escape DC 27) and automatically takes full damage of breath weapon next time this head breathes. The head cannot attack new targets until it either lets go of the bitten or the target dies. Each head can only bite or breathe once per round.

Claw: +19 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 24 (4d6 + 10) slashing damage. Huge or smaller opponent hit must roll a Strength saving throw (DC 27) or be knocked prone by the attack.

Tail: +19 to hit, reach 25 ft., any number of targets within a 50' arc. Hit: 28 (4d8 + 10) bludgeoning damage. Huge or smaller opponents hit must roll a Strength saving throw (DC 27) or be knocked back 10'.

Wing Buffet: Tiamat decides a spot within 100' of her. Each creature within 50 ft. radius of that spot must succeed on a DC 27 Dexterity saving throw or take 43 (6d10 + 10) bludgeoning damage and be sucked up by a whirlwind unable to act, flying 60' up and then falling on their next turn (DC 27 Con-save at the start of their turn to recover and be able to take action). Those who save take half damage.

Breath weapon: Each head can only breathe every 1d4 rounds. After a breath, roll 1d4 for that head. The head recharges after that time.

Blue breath: 16d10 lightning damage in a 480' line of 10' spread. DC 27 Dex for half. Lightning breath works as Dispel Magic on everything hit.
Black breath: 15d8 acid damage in a 480' line of 20' spread. DC 27 Dex for half. Acid breath works as Disintegrate on all creatures and objects hit.
Red head: 26d6 fire damage in a 180' cone. DC 27 Dex for half. Fire breath lingers lights the area ablaze. The area hit by the fire breath is turned into a fiery hellscape, dealing half the damage of the fire breath each round to every creature in the area (same save DC). The fire burns so hot that even creatures immune to fire are treated as only having resistance to fire, and creates resistant to fire take normal damage. Those not resistant to fire take damage as if they were vulnerable. The fires burn for 1 minute (additional breaths in the same area extend its duration).
Green head: 180' cone. DC 27 Con save vs. death. 20d6 damage on a successful save.
White head: 22d8 cold damage in a 180' cone. DC 27 Con save for half. Cold breath freezes all hit targets solid. For creatures on a failed save, target is restrained and incapacitated and can't take any action unless they are melted by fire taking at least 50 fire damage. The restrained creatures can retry their save at the end of each of their turns.


Legendary actions: 5 points.

1 point: Bite me.
1 points: Tail slash
2 points: Wing buffet + move half speed
2 points: Breath weapon
2 points: Cast an at-will spell