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Thread: Minor incongruence?
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2021-04-26, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Minor incongruence?
We know from Xykon that he was able to find Lirian's Gate and Dorukan's Gate because he "found" the diary and deciphered the locations of the gate from it. The key fact is that he first found the diary, and then located the gates.
From SoD, however, we know that...
Spoiler
...Xykon and Redcloak staged their first assault to Lirian's Gate when Xykon was still human.
Yet in Serini's memory, when Xykon attacked her he was an undead. She also specifies that it's in that very assault that he took her diary.
Shouldn't Xykon have been human in Serini's memory?
Spoiler
The only alternative I can think of is that somehow Redcloak already knew the location of Lirian's Gate (and thus, when Xykon says that "he deciphered the location of that gate", he's just taking undue credit for it), and then Xykon used the knowledge of that location as a key to break the code of Serini's diary and find Dorukan's one.
Last edited by Cicciograna; 2021-04-26 at 02:07 PM.
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2021-04-26, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
It's a continuity error. According to prequel story "Start of Darkness", Redcloak already has know the location of Lirian's Gate before he met Xykon.
Last edited by Precure; 2021-04-26 at 02:18 PM.
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2021-04-26, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
Yes Redcloak knew of Lirian's Gate because ot was discovered by a cleric of the Dark One and the knowledge of it was placed within the Crimson Mantle.
What's interesting is that between the creation of the Mantle and Recloak donning it, the Church of the Dark One somehow found out about Soon's Gate and chose to attack it rather than Lirian's for some reason (probably because there were more goblinoids living in the South than in the West).Forum Wisdom
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2021-04-26, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
There is no error.
The only incongruence I see is that Xykon was able to remember location of Lirian's Gate exactly enough to use it for decryption after so many years; that's fairly unusual level of focus from our lich.Spoiler: SoDRedcloak knew about the location of Lirian's Gate from the Crimson Mantle. During the conquest, Xykon became lich and discovered there are other Gates. The bad guys were trying to discover their location for many years; Xykon eventually succeeded while being on his own, apparently learning about Serini and her connection to Lirian
What's interesting is that between the creation of the Mantle and Recloak donning it, the Church of the Dark One somehow found out about Soon's Gate and chose to attack itLast edited by Mike Havran; 2021-04-26 at 02:32 PM.
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
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2021-04-26, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
So when Xykon says that he "decoded" the location of the first gate, it doesn't mean that he "found" it, but that he discovered the way the position was encoded, thus allowing him to decode the position of the following gates.
All right, checks out.
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2021-04-26, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
No. Pay more attention to the sequence of events in SoD. This flashback happens during that book, not after it.
Spoiler
Sequence of events is important here:
1. Xykon actually becomes a lich after failing in the first assault on Lirian's Gate.
2. He learns of the other four gates from Lirian right before he kills her during the 2nd assault after becoming a lich.
3. He disappears to search for information on the other gates about the same time Right Eye leaves to find a life beyond a plan.
Serini would have been found and attacked at this point.
4. He re-enters the story after Redcloak tracks down Right Eye and finds out what he's been up to.
No, it's not. See above.
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2021-04-26, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-26, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
Hmm...
At issue is this specific comic -> https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html
Start of Darkness (SoD) retcons this to where Redcloak already knew the location of the gate.
Serini's memory flashback scene follows this retcon.
So, upon further investigation there is a continuity error if you haven't read SoD.
Spoiler
SoD further elaborates on how both Xykon and Redcloak even know about the gates - Redcloak from his cloak via the dark one, and Xykon from Lirian by mistake.
The more elaborate telling in SoD sticks to my mind more than the one line reference in #196 and feels more complete than Xykon just happening to know about the gates for no reason.Last edited by Alias; 2021-04-26 at 02:44 PM.
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2021-04-26, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
You are absolutely right.
Eh, not really "clearly". He states that he "deciphered" the location of Lirian's Gate. But as others have pointed, he already knew the location of Lirian's Gate, because Redcloak knew it, and Redcloak knew it because The Dark One knew it and imparted this knowledge to the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle.
As Alias correctly reminded, Xykon (and Redcloak) didn't even know about the OTHER gates. After Lirian's tongue slipped, Xykon disappeared and probably found and fought Serini, stealing her diary.
The diary was encoded, but using the location of Lirian's Gate as a key, he "deciphered" the (already known to him) location of her Gate and, having cracked the cipher, "deciphered" the (still unknown) location of Dorukan's Gate.
Nono, you are absolutely correct, I was away from books when I posted my question, but when I rechecked SoD I realized that it's definitely as you say.Last edited by Cicciograna; 2021-04-26 at 02:46 PM.
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2021-04-26, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
Yep. And I don't blame you for the misunderstanding: while taken literally it never claims they used the diary to find Lirian's gate, it's definitely still a little misleading in the way the dialogue is structured. Almost misleading enough that I wonder if the SoD sequence of events was a slight retcon of #196.
As another fun detail, Xykon's statement indicates that he only had the patience to decode the one he already knew (to reverse engineer the encryption), and the next target on his list, but wasn't patient enough to decode any of the other three!
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2021-04-26, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
There's no continuity error, and no need to posit a retcon. Xykon said that without the diary he wouldn't have been able to find Dorukan's Gate. Lirian's Gate is conspicuously absent from that sentence, because he already knew where it was. He was able to decode the location of Lirian's Gate thanks to the fact that he already knew where it was, and used that information to then decode the location of Dorukan's Gate. And after #197 he decoded the rest.
Last edited by hroşila; 2021-04-26 at 02:47 PM.
ungelic is us
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2021-04-26, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-26, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-26, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
I don't buy it. How can he decipher a diary just by knowing a location?
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2021-04-26, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
Because the Sapphire Guard swore and Oath not to interfere with the defense of the other Gates yet we know from Redcloak that they fought the Church of the Dark One. Therefore they must have believed that they were a threat to Soon's Gate specifically.
Yes Redcloak didn't, but there has been at least three previous Bearers of the Crimson Mantle. It seems like all the relevant intelligence didn't get passed appropriately. Having your numbers massacred so bad you decide to name a random teenager who hasn't even been in the Church for a full day can cause that to happen.
Edit:
The diary wasn't coded entirely. Just the coordinates.Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-04-26 at 02:51 PM.
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2021-04-26, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
It was not the full diary that was encoded, but just the locations of the gates. We see a sample of the diary, when Serini describes her party, and it is readable.
Anyway, imagine this sentence:
QNRDR ZQD QDC
It's clearly "encoded" (although the cipher is extremely weak). It doesn't take long to understand the meaning, but if you know that the first word decodes to "ROSES", deciphering the other two is incredibly easier.
EDIT: specifically, I just implemented a so-called Caesar cipher, in which the shift is just -1. I know, I am extremely boringLast edited by Cicciograna; 2021-04-26 at 02:56 PM.
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2021-04-26, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
The Dark One found Lirian's Gate and led Xykon to it, both at that time believing it was the only access to the Snarl; at Lirian's Gate Xykon became undead and they both learned that there were other Gates; then Xykon tracked down Serini's diary.
No ambiguity, no contradiction, straightforwardly spelled out in Start of Darkness and entirely congruent with what's in the online comic, as other people have pointed out. If that's not good enough for anyone, I think the only reasonable reaction is, "Oh well."Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2021-04-26, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-26, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-26, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-26, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2021-04-26, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
Forum Wisdom
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2021-04-26, 03:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
ungelic is us
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2021-04-26, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
Interfering with defense of other Gates is far cry from trying to kill creatures that are a possible threat to any gate, especially if they aren't even in the vicinity of the other gates. If anything,
Spoiler: SoDRedcloak's Revered Master does not mention anything about Azurites having any connection to the Plan, only that they kill goblins because they ping as Evil.There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
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2021-04-26, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
What the Sapphire Guard thought and what was reality are not necessarily the same thing. And, regardless of anything, the Goblin people raided by the Sapphire Guard were likely not on the western continent, and thus not threatening Lirian's Gate, so even if they knew the goblins didn't know about Soon's Gate, it wouldn't constitute interfering with her defenses.
Last edited by Peelee; 2021-04-26 at 04:23 PM.
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2021-04-26, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
Honestly, till now I always assumed that entire diary was decoded. It seems pretty stupid of Serini to just encoding the coordinates. Anyone can decypher it if they know one of the locations.
Last edited by Precure; 2021-04-26 at 04:47 PM.
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2021-04-26, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
I dunno, Redcloak's village was a thousand miles from Azure City which to le implies that the SG were specifically hunting the Bearer rather than just stumbling onto him or something. Especially since Redcloak's crayon story also says they were once "thwarted" by the Sapphire Guard which to me suggests the goblins attacked Soon's Gate.
It's not definitive, but I don't think the guard would have launched crusades against the goblins just because Soon told them "we fought a bunch a goblins once".Forum Wisdom
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2021-04-26, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
They were looking for a goblin with crimson mantle.
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2021-04-26, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
I'm fairly certain the goblins were only trying to capture Lirian's gate (maybe several times). Redcloak only learns of Lirian's gate through the knowledge from Crimson Mantle, and doesn't learn about the others until [events of SoD]. If I recall correctly, Redcloak's use of "thwarted" is referring to the Order of the Scribble, not the Sapphire Guard, defending Lirian's gate. It's plausible that goblins established themselves as a persistent threat to Lirian's Gate, led by the bearer of Crimson Mantle, and that was enough for the Sapphire Guard to initiate a long-lasting campaign to track down and destroy the Bearer (and if some goblin children happen to die along the way, too bad, so sad).
Redcloak also says that Kraagor "killed thousands of goblins when he was alive," which I'm assuming was before he died, thus it was before Soon formed the Sapphire Guard. That last bit might not back up or refute anything, it might just be me establishing a timeline.Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-04-26 at 05:04 PM.
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2021-04-26, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Minor incongruence?
Last edited by Mike Havran; 2021-04-26 at 05:09 PM.
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
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