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2021-04-27, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
So we know that the goblins had been created by Fenris, does that mean that prior to the Dark One’s apotheosis that he was the chief deity of the goblins? Or at the very least played a major role in their religion?
Did the Dark One initially worship him? Akin to how the Patron God/First Emperor of Warhammer Fantasy, Sigmar Heldenhammer was a worshipper of the White Wolf Ulric?
Does that mean that the Dark One and Fenris are connected somehow? Would they have an alliance? Or be at war because they both feel they have a more rightful claim over the souls of goblinkind over the other?
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2021-04-27, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
seems to me more like Fenris created them, but was never actually part of their lives, kind of like when you load up a life-simulator game like "Creatures" or "The Sims" and get everything set up, but then just leave them to their own devices to see how they get on their own. At best he looked over at them to see if they've done what he was hoping for yet, at worst he got bored after a couple hundred years and forgot they existed.
Avy by Thormag
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2021-04-27, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
I think we don't know for certain, but I would conclude No based on what we know.
Fenris created the goblins, but got bored with them. Presumably centuries/millennia ago (I forget how long this world existed). So there's no reason Fenris would particularly care about the goblins.
For that reason, no reason the goblins would particularly venerate him.
And since the bugbear hunter (Oona?) doesn't speak of him when talking theology with Redcloask, well, that's some evidence he's not important to religious holidays or festivals like the Dark one is.
Lastly, if the Dark One was allied with Fenris or a devotee of him before ascension, I would think Fenris would have sponsored him into joining the same pantheon. That the Dark One made his own pantheon (quiddity) makes me believe that the Dark One, and probably goblins in general, had no strong devotion to any deity.
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2021-04-27, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
According to The Giant, the goblins worshipped "no one" before the Dark One. So the answer would be a resounding no. Probably because Fenrir got bored of them and did not involve himself with them after cretaing them.
I guess one could consider the Dark One to be something of a descendant of Fenris but, if the way he is portrayed by Recloak in SoD is accurate, and if the Dark One is aware of the connection it probably means he hates Fenrir most out of all the other gods, for he is specifically the one who botched them and abandonned them. So fat chance on them being allies. This is supported by the fact that Fenrir is never listed as one of the Dar One's allies, only Loki, Rat, Tiamat and, for a broad meaning of "ally", Thor are.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-04-27, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
I assume that nearly everything in the world is a three-quiddity mixture, regardless of which god(s) worked on it. That probably leaves them with the metaphysical independence to form a new quiddity if they aren't guided by any one pantheon.
I also believe that despite Rich's comments individual goblins probably drifted to this or that deity over time, it's just their culture as a whole never did before the Dark One."They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper
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2021-04-27, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Valencia, Spain
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Since the Giant stated that the Goblins worshipped no one at the time of TDO's ascension, my headcanon is:
1. Goblins initally worshipped Fenris.
2. Fenris lost interest in them and began neglecting them.
3. Goblins stopped worshipping Fenris. Their shamans became non-theistic, getting their spells from nature spirits and stuff like that.
4. TDO is born.
5. TDO is killed.
6. TDO is ascended.
7. Goblins begin to worship TDO.
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2021-04-27, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
I mean, when he's made absolute statements like that before he meant them literally (i.e. literally no living person in this world has ever worshiped Hel.) so it's not impossible the same applies to no goblins ever worshiping any of the gods existing before the Dark One. Just pointing this out, not saying it has to be the case.
I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish
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2021-04-27, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.
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2021-04-27, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Thirded.
An interesting follow-up question is "does TDO know the full story of goblins' creation?" and I don't think we have enough info to confirm or deny. #1232 partially refutes the crayon narrative from SoD, though whether that incongruity is "a result of TDO's paranoia" or "just an outright lie TDO told his High Priest" is currently unprovable one way or the other, I believe.Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-04-27 at 01:13 PM.
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2021-04-27, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
I'm not really seeing a reason to think the goblinoids ever actually worshipped Fenrir/s. Just because they were his idea/creation doesn't mean they had to worship him. The context of the quote implies that they never worshiped anyone before the Dark One, this new information doesn't really change that.
Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2021-04-27 at 02:15 PM.
I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish
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2021-04-27, 02:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
I am awfully confused why the goblins don’t worship other gods.
We see dwarves worshipping multiple gods; we see humans worshipping multiple gods; we see halflings worshipping multiple gods; we see gnomes worshipping multiple gods.
Why wouldn’t goblins worship Thor or Surtur or Odin or whatever?
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2021-04-27, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-04-27, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
ungelic is us
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2021-04-27, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Three reasons I would imagine.
Firstly - when Fenris abandoned them nobody else showed up so they never had a proper understanding of any deities dogma to begin worshipoing.
Secondly - the flocks of the existing gods were more interested in preaching to their own people rather then missionary work.
Thirdly - The Dark One effectively says 'all the other gods are enemies and they see no value in you' so that any goblin that considered it would be discouraged based on cultural teachings and regarded as a traitor to their peoploe if they attempted it anyway.
That is you choosing which words to add to his statement from options you have chosen.Last edited by dancrilis; 2021-04-27 at 03:05 PM.
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2021-04-27, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-04-27, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-27, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Sure, but Dwarfs got a raw deal from Loki, Hel, and Thor. Yet here they are, still worshipping Thor and Odin.
I don't know. It's like when the everyone is spending world creation points, it was like:
Zeus: Are we all spending points on humans again?
Other Gods: Oh yeah. We're all in.
Thor [visibly drunk]: I'm going to do dwarves again. Anyone want to help?
Odin, Loki, Hel, and Others: Yeah, big guy. Let us help you with dwarfs.
Heimdahl: Damnit Thor! They're three feet tall! What were you thinking?
Thor: They're "medium"!
Loki: [snickers].
Tiamat: I'm spending every point I've got on the Dragons! Gonna optimize this build!
Tiamat (Later): Oh, one point left over. I guess... Kobolds?
Other Gods: Ugh. Seriously? They smell like alpacas!
Tiamat: C'mon, help me out here. Kobolds are fun.
Other Gods: Fine, we'll each toss in a few points. Don't want it to turn out like the movie snack world again. Popcorn was awful.
Fenrir: I'll spend one point on goblins.
Fenrir: Wait, never mind. Can I take back the point on goblins?
Other Gods: What? You can't take back points!
Fenrir: I'm giving the goblins rocks to eat instead of potatoes. I'm taking back my point.
Fenrir: I'm spending all my remaining points on Trolls! And Sentient Fungus!
Other Gods: Wait... sentient fungus? What? You screwed over goblins to make sentient fungus?
Fenrir: Not my fault.
Other Gods: That's literally the dictionary definition of "your fault". What were you thinking?
Fenrir: Y'all can fix them for me.
Other Gods: No. Screw goblins. They're your problem.Last edited by Dion; 2021-04-27 at 07:42 PM.
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2021-04-27, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-04-27 at 08:00 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-04-27, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Except Zeus got Snarled
Anyway, I suspect that what happened was goblins prayed for help but no god was willing to help because they were regarded as Fenris’ project. A bit strange how they ended up existing in all the lands.
And Fenris didn’t answer them because he is a git.'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2021-04-27, 11:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
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2021-04-28, 02:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
CE god and not even Loki style CE(CN)
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2021-04-28, 06:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Last edited by Dion; 2021-04-28 at 06:14 AM.
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2021-04-28, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Because they are monotheists. Your confusion reminds me of Roman Emperors' confusion why Jews and early Christians wouldn't worship Sol Invictus. (Note to self: Better not ride that parallel too hard.)
Besides, they're all systemically at fault for goblinoids' troubles. Sure Fenny may have a particularly troubling haecceity but he doesn't share a quiddity with these people for nothing.
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2021-04-28, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
They aren’t monotheistic as they acknowledge other gods exist just don’t worship them.
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2021-04-28, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
In the D&D cosmology, from which OOTS borrows his, each God has his or her (or it) portfolio, which is the list of things that deity reigns over. Like Thor being the God of Thunder, or Hel being the Godess of Disease.
My head canon is that Goblinoids, having been created by Fenrir, belonged to that God's portfolio. The fact that Fenris began to neglect the goblinoids doesn't means other Gods got to step in and take over. And, given how adverse to conflict are Gods in this setting, it makes sense they wouldn't begin to fight over who ruled the goblinoids. When The Dark One ascended, they agreed to handle him the portfolio, probably because they felt like they were handling him scraps.
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2021-04-28, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
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2021-04-28, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Last edited by Dion; 2021-04-28 at 08:23 AM.
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2021-04-28, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"
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2021-04-28, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
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2021-04-28, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Did the goblins worship Fenris? Or at the very least acknowledged him?
Hm, is there no RPS (Race Protective Services)in the Astral Plane in the case of a negligent deity?
yay, I learned a useful new word today, Thanks!
Ergo, goblins are monsters. (Which, if we go back to old time D&D, all creatures who were not PCs were).
I've been told that in 3.x humans are not in the monster manual.Spoiler: other edition spoiler(The more I think of it, the more bizarre I find that approach, but I then look at 5e and realize that they did something similar there, although Beserkers and Knights are in the MM, they are "fill in the race here" and all races seem to be in the PHB, except then in Volo's they overlapped ... sorry, different edition, I'll stop)Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-04-28 at 08:48 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society