Twilight Clerics

[Skrum]

My dnd group is in discussion about Twilight Clerics. Several of them feel that the channel divinity ability that grants temp HP is broken. It's being used every round to give a 1d6+cleric level shield to every party member. They think this is too strong of an option, making the party extremely hard to hurt (as well as making other cleric options, including ones that are supposed to be about healing) look weak.

I haven't actually played with this cleric in my games yet, but I wanted to get some other opinions. My DM-radar is telling me there are easy tactical or mechanical options for working around this, but idk for sure.

Is this ability broken? Or merely super strong? Or none of the above?

[Amnestic]

I wouldn't call it "broken" but I can definitely understand why some people would.

There's a lot of suggested fixes floating around. Some of them include:-

• Make it concentration.
• Make it 1d6+WisMod instead of 1d6+Level.
• Creature can only get temp hit points once per channel divinity use.
• Instead of instant-ending charm/fear effect, it gives a new save option and/or advantage on the save

I wouldn't necessarily make all those changes at once (though even if you did, it'd still be "okay"/"good") but just some ideas on adjustments to make.

Also the 300' range darkvision is dumb. Make it 60' if you don't have darkvision or an extra 60' if you do have it from another source.

[The_Jette]

My dnd group is in discussion about Twilight Clerics. Several of them feel that the channel divinity ability that grants temp HP is broken. It's being used every round to give a 1d6+cleric level shield to every party member. They think this is too strong of an option, making the party extremely hard to hurt (as well as making other cleric options, including ones that are supposed to be about healing) look weak.

I haven't actually played with this cleric in my games yet, but I wanted to get some other opinions. My DM-radar is telling me there are easy tactical or mechanical options for working around this, but idk for sure.

Is this ability broken? Or merely super strong? Or none of the above?

You can only use channel divinity once per short rest until you're higher level. It lasts a minute, so it'll probably be good for the whole fight. But, you have to stay within 30' of the cleric to gain the benefit, and then you have to rest to get it again. If your party takes a short rest after every fight I could see how they would see it as powerful. In that case, work to reduce the number of short rests they take so that he can't use it every fight and has to conserve it for the big ones.

[P. G. Macer]

You can only use channel divinity once per short rest until you're higher level. It lasts a minute, so it'll probably be good for the whole fight. But, you have to stay within 30' of the cleric to gain the benefit, and then you have to rest to get it again. If your party takes a short rest after every fight I could see how they would see it as powerful. In that case, work to reduce the number of short rests they take so that he can't use it every fight and has to conserve it for the big ones.

The first sentence is only true in the most technical sense; Clerics can use their Channel Divinity twice per rest starting at 6th level, which plenty of games reach.

[Nefariis]

You are not going to find many people on this board to call anything in 5e broken (which I think is a mistake) - but I think a reasonable person could come to the conclusion that the Twilight Cleric ability is over powered for level 2.

His ability is essentially DR/5.5 at level 2 (DR/13.5 at level 10, DR/23.5 at level 20) for everyone in the party - not to mention a free remove charmed/frightened conditions and shenanigans caused from the 30 feet of dim light rider.

A few (not all) other sub classes that have an ability to reduce damage are

6th level Ancestral Guardians/Spirit Shield reduce by 2d6
3rd level Psi Warrior/Protective Field reduce by 1d6 + int
6th level Clockwork Soul/Bastion of Law reduce by 1-5d8 (based on sorc points)
6th level Fathomless Warlock/Guardian Coil reduce by 1d8

but all of the above are a single target and most of them take a reaction.

twilight cleric is every turn, the whole team, no reaction, no concentration, level 2 - which is definitely overpowered

[The_Jette]

The first sentence is only true in the most technical sense; Clerics can use their Channel Divinity twice per rest starting at 6th level, which plenty of games reach.

I misread his statement. I thought that the player had just got it, thus the "higher level" part of my statement. If they're already level 6+, then it's feasible to use it every combat.

[MaxWilson]

You are not going to find many people on this board to call anything in 5e broken (which I think is a mistake) - but I think a reasonable person could come to the conclusion that the Twilight Cleric ability is over powered for level 2.

I'll call Simulacrum broken--in the sense that it exerts choice effects so powerful as to render the game un-playable in its intended form, once it's available--and Healing Spirit v1. Twilight Cleric is broken in the sense that it renders PHB clerics obsolete, in kind of the same way that Hexblade does for warlocks, but for the whole class not just as a 1 level dip. I.e. if you're going Warlock 10ish, Hexblade doesn't dominate other choices, but if you're going Warlock 1-2/Bard X, Hexblade is the only reasonable pick from a power perspective, although RP doesn't necessarily fit. But Twilight 10 dominates any other Cleric 10 build except arguably Peace 10.

Wish is also broken in the same sense as Simulacrum, but it's fun enough that I've left it alone so far and just let it be broken.

[da newt]

IMO it causes the most issues at low levels where 1d6 + lvl hp / turn is more significant %-wise than at later levels where its a smaller buff, but it is quite effective.

Also, the 30' range can make a huge difference depending on the specifics of the encounter, and often the 'nope' to charmed / frightened is the real game changer.

I think calling it broken is too much, but it does approach OP.

[arnin77]

Twilight Cleric seems like a subclass someone built trying to make a theme fit into the mechanics they wanted.

No other cleric subclass, that I know of; gets 3 features at level 1 (heavy armor and martial weapons for some reason, dark vision and a bonus to initiative); in fact some only have one and it just seems really tacky. Oh and they can gain a flying speed at level 6.

I have no desire to play one at all.

[Nefariis]

Twilight Cleric seems like a subclass someone built trying to make a theme fit into the mechanics they wanted.

No other cleric subclass, that I know of; gets 3 features at level 1 (heavy armor and martial weapons for some reason, dark vision and a bonus to initiative); in fact some only have one and it just seems really tacky. Oh and they can gain a flying speed at level 6.

I have no desire to play one at all.

no kidding

[LudicSavant]

My dnd group is in discussion about Twilight Clerics. Several of them feel that the channel divinity ability that grants temp HP is broken. It's being used every round to give a 1d6+cleric level shield to every party member. They think this is too strong of an option, making the party extremely hard to hurt (as well as making other cleric options, including ones that are supposed to be about healing) look weak.

I haven't actually played with this cleric in my games yet, but I wanted to get some other opinions. My DM-radar is telling me there are easy tactical or mechanical options for working around this, but idk for sure.

Is this ability broken? Or merely super strong? Or none of the above?

IMHO, the Twilight Cleric's Channel Divinity is stronger than every other Channel Divinity. And it's not balanced out by their other subclass features either; all of those are at least above average.

So: Is it "broken?" Well... broken's a strong word that I usually reserve for things like Simulacrum Loops or infinite spell slot tricks, so I wouldn't say that. But I would say that it's definitely stronger than it should be, yes.

[J-H]

As a DM, I consider it unbalanced as well as not table-friendly (too much extra to track).
Twilight Clerics as-written are not allowed at my table.

[Sepaulchre]

We reached a similar conclusion at my table. I'm playing the Twilight cleric. We thought it was to powerful and the rolling at the end of every turn slowed the game down. I think we've come up with a decently workable middle ground:

- Still takes an action to start the CD
- When CD is up, it takes the cleric's reaction on my turn or immediately before my turn to grant 2 + cleric level Temp HP OR allow a character to retry an ongoing charm or frightened effect with advantage to WIS mod characters

My DM wasn't super psyched about my cleric's reactions (shield, warcaster) so this mitigates that in their view. I think the action economy tax is fine, but I'd rather have the choice between my reaction and my bonus action. Using my reaction on my turn sometime leads to me checking out between my turns (it's a big party), which is admittedly on me. But for me combat becomes a lot less dynamic if reactions are not a possibility.

[LudicSavant]

Contrast the Glory Paladin's temp HP Channel Divinity.

And before someone says something like "well maybe Cleric Channel Divinities are just way stronger than Paladin ones," that's not generally the case (sometimes they're even identical -- Conquest has the same CD as War Cleric IIRC).

[Gecks]

Broken is a strong word, but Twilight Clerics are extremely strong, and difficulty would need to be adjusted for an on-demand, scaling, regenerating whole-party temp HP buffer (which might make combat more "swingy"- if the TW cleric drops or or is disabled and the party loses their shields during a major battle, things could suddenly go south before they realize they are in trouble). I would need to have a long think before allowing this class at my table, which is unique for official 5th editions classes / subclasses.

I would 100% not allow a twilight cleric and a peace cleric in the same party- the interaction between these two subclasses would be absolutely broken (since it prevents monsters from using focus-fire to bust through the temp HP shields- would make it almost impossible to tune combat to be challenging without devolving into rocket-tag).

I think this class would slow-down play at the table and make the job of the DM more difficult and reduce their enjoyment of the game. Personally, I would only allow it if a player was very invested in the class, and I had the bandwidth for extra homework and challenge as the DM.

[Nefariis]

Broken is a strong word, but Twilight Clerics are extremely strong, and difficulty would need to be adjusted for an on-demand, scaling, regenerating whole-party temp HP buffer (which might make combat more "swingy"- if the TW cleric drops or or is disabled and the party loses their shields during a major battle, things could suddenly go south before they realize they are in trouble). I would need to have a long think before allowing this class at my table, which is unique for official 5th editions classes / subclasses.

I would 100% not allow a twilight cleric and an order cleric in the same party- the interaction between these two subclasses would be absolutely broken (since it prevents monsters from using focus-fire to bust through the temp HP shields- would make it almost impossible to tune combat to be challenging without devolving into rocket-tag).

I think this class would slow-down play at the table and make the job of the DM more difficult and reduce their enjoyment of the game. Personally, I would only allow it if a player was very invested in the class, and I had the bandwidth for extra homework and challenge as the DM.

Im surprised you said Order Cleric, Peace Cleric to me might have some better synergy

Protective Bond
Beginning at 6th level, the bond you forge between people helps them protect each other. When a creature affected by your Emboldening Bond feature is about to take damage, a second bonded creature within 30 feet of the first can use its reaction to teleport to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of the first creature. The second creature then takes all the damage instead.

Nothing like musical chairs with Temp HP

[Gecks]

Im surprised you said Order Cleric, Peace Cleric to me might have some better synergy


Nothing like musical chairs with Temp HP

Yup, that was a typo, meant Peace cleric- thanks for letting me know!

[Theodoxus]

Twilight is powerful, no doubt. I think dropping the armor and weapon prof's would be sufficient to reign in most of the disparity. The CD is nice, but unless the party is primarily loaded up with darkvision folks, or your TC has a high enough Wis to grant darkvision to the rest of the party, anyone looking for those temp HP are going to be sitting in dim light. And they're temp HP, and not a lot -but they are going to be competing with any other source of temp HP. I'd still take the Life cleric's CD over it. At least it's actual healing, and doesn't require sitting in a pool of disadvantaging dim light.

YMMV.

[x3n0n]

doesn't require sitting in a pool of disadvantaging dim light

FWIW, under normal circumstances, dim light is lightly obscured, which imposes disadvantage on Perception checks based on sight, but not on attack rolls, saves, or any other ability checks that I'm aware of.

In context, it sounded to me like you might have meant it imposed disadvantage on attacks.

[Yakmala]

I've both played a Twilight Cleric and DM'd for one. Is it a powerful Channel Divinity? Certainly.

But it's a single 1 minute use per rest at lower levels, two uses at higher levels and three uses at a level most campaigns never reach.

Stop giving rests every 1-2 fights and force the Twilight Cleric to think hard about when they want to use Twilight Sanctuary.

[ATHATH]

You can only use channel divinity once per short rest until you're higher level. It lasts a minute, so it'll probably be good for the whole fight. But, you have to stay within 30' of the cleric to gain the benefit, and then you have to rest to get it again. If your party takes a short rest after every fight I could see how they would see it as powerful. In that case, work to reduce the number of short rests they take so that he can't use it every fight and has to conserve it for the big ones.

As far as I'm aware, the temporary HP doesn't go away when the CD's 1 minute duration ends and will instead remain until a long rest is taken. This means that a Twilight Cleric can, after taking a long rest, pop their channel divinity while their entire party is inside of it, roll 10 d6s to try to get a maximum temporary HP roll, and then immediately take a short rest, allowing the party to start their adventuring day with both a significant chunk of temporary HP without depriving their Twilight Cleric of a CD usage.

[Hael]

The only thing that slows a peace cleric down a tad is that at low lvls there ability is tied to prof number of bonds. Twilight has no such restriction, and so you could imagine a twilight cleric walking amongst an army and providing tens of thousands of points of temp hp, even in tier1.

So that’s my preferred solution. Adding conc, and tying the numbers to prof for a start. I fear that still won’t be enough, but it obviously needs play testing.. the class should never have been let out in its current state.

[Theodoxus]

The only thing that slows a peace cleric down a tad is that at low lvls there ability is tied to prof number of bonds. Twilight has no such restriction, and so you could imagine a twilight cleric walking amongst an army and providing tens of thousands of points of temp hp, even in tier1.

So that’s my preferred solution. Adding conc, and tying the numbers to prof for a start. I fear that still won’t be enough, but it obviously needs play testing.. the class should never have been let out in its current state.

These throngs of army soldiers have to end their turn inside the bubble to get the benefit... how exactly are you imagining that happening within a minute?

[Hael]

30 foot by 30 foot is 900 ft squared. Let’s say it’s 1000 ft squared. According to google, you can fit about 166 people in a 1000 ft squared area for a party if you pack them tightly. Ten turns of that allows everyone to move in and out assuming everyone has >15 ft movement to exit radially outwards with a bit left over to allow others to come in. Thus ~1660 people can benefit from 1d6+ lvl temp hp. So at lvl 4, that’s over 10k hp, which was my guesstimate. ;)

Or you could just accept that I wasn’t being overly precise. :)

[MoiMagnus]

IMO, the d6 should not be there. It's annoying to roll the die every turn. Our GM averaged it at 3, but honestly it could be removed.

[Eldariel]

Well, it's "broken" in that it's way stronger than basically any other Channel Divinity. The competition is basically:
- Light/Peace: Other healing abilities. This being 1/round for an extended duration and removing status makes it trivially stronger.
- Light/War/Tempest/Death/Grave: Different damage abilities. Generally sustainability is harder to get than damage and in any case, the effective damage prevented by the extra damage these abilities add is generally far less than 1d6+Level for the whole party over an extended period of time (plus did I mention status removal?).
- Forge/Knowledge: Utility abilities, but they kinda fall off pretty quickly. They are really strong and different enough early on to make comparison difficult though.
- Trickery: This is a superstrong ability but takes Concentration. You're a Cleric. Your Concentration is kind of a big deal. So while I think the ability itself is competitive (a perfect image that can be used to cast spells?!), Twilight-ability is superstrong too and lets you Concentrate on other stuff while at it.
- Arcana/Order/Nature: These are all kinda subpar for various reasons. Order lasts too short a time, Nature has too limited of a target scope to be reliably useful and 1 minute is still a fairly short time, Arcana has the "single target save-or-X" issue of potential wasted action and also the fact that the Turning effect ends on damage.


It just does something that is really kinda hard to get otherwise in this edition: it's hard to repeatedly top out your party and getting a sizable damage barrier every turn that also has secondary functions does exactly that. Hell, the d6 is even a bonus on top of it since if you get a higher roll than last time, your THP total increases even if you haven't taken any damage.

[Chronic]

I both play and GM a twilight cleric at this moment, and it's strong. It's also very easy to balance without nerfing anything. Just buff monster damage on the spot and not only the cleric does feel very useful but the party still takes damage. That's the good thing with heal and THP, it's extremely easy to balance without anyone at the table noticing.
Since it affects everyone in the group more or less, it's both easy to balance and feel good for the group, so I still consider it good design in the end.
For game flow, we use one roll a round. When the round start the Twilight cleric roll a d6+level and it apply for every player when its turn start.
Other than that, this cleric might feel like it's getting too much, but heavy Armour is in my opinion kind of trap, you either need 15 strength or you take a 10ft movement penalty and both are bad options imo. 15 strength on a cleric that will suck in melee is a waste, and movement is often key to survivability. Better go medium armor and invest in stealth, which synergise way better.
The radiant dmg on melee strike is probably the best type of damage, but twilight clerics are very bad melee clerics (like most clerics).
On top of that taking a level of druid is not as good on this domain, since it's spell list overlap a fair bit but still lack the best options.
Flying at 6th level is awesome but it takes one use of channel divinity, which means using it out of combat is depriving you of a very important combat option, and using it in combat mean reducing the size of the zone if your allies aren't on the same plane (geometrical plane I mean). So it's good for you, but even flying only 10 feet high to get outside of melee range (15 needed if the enemy has reach) means reducing the size of your defensive sphere to 20ft (15 if reach) on the ground, which reduce maneuverability.
Reality is, twilight cleric is strong, probably one of the best domain for 1 to 20 clerics, but it's a support, helping a lot without stealing thunder of others in the group, and other clerics build are as powerful (melee Arcana cleric is a beast, life and grave are great, peace is an order of magnitude above anyone else, light is cool etc.

On the other hand the peace cleric is so powerful and break the bounded accuracy in such a way that it would demand an entire redesign to be balanced, which I'm too lazy to do, making the only subclass I have ever banned at my table.

Oh I forgot, the artifice THP turret is actually more powerful at low level (a bit more tricky to use tho) and no one is raving about it.

[Amnestic]

On the other hand the peace cleric is so powerful and break the bounded accuracy in such a way that it would demand an entire redesign to be balanced, which I'm too lazy to do, making the only subclass I have ever banned at my table.

"Just buff monster AC/DCs" is surely the exact same response as "just buff monster damage" is to Twilight cleric.

[Chronic]

Nop because it also apply to the group save DC and can be copounded with bless. Suddenly you have a group that excel at everything all the time. Meanwhile you only have to buff the monster damage a bit and focus damage. I play a level 10 twilight cleric and GM a level 7 one, and neither me nor the other gm feel like it's a real problem, people still go unconscious and it does nothing special to contribute to the dpt. Fine by our book. On the other hand I had to ask one player to change his character from peace cleric to anything else because it was too much for me to handle.

[Waazraath]

I wouldn't call it "broken" but I can definitely understand why some people would.

There's a lot of suggested fixes floating around. Some of them include:-

• Make it concentration.
• Make it 1d6+WisMod instead of 1d6+Level.
• Creature can only get temp hit points once per channel divinity use.
• Instead of instant-ending charm/fear effect, it gives a new save option and/or advantage on the save

I wouldn't necessarily make all those changes at once (though even if you did, it'd still be "okay"/"good") but just some ideas on adjustments to make.

Also the 300' range darkvision is dumb. Make it 60' if you don't have darkvision or an extra 60' if you do have it from another source.

Bolded for truth. For me it's the limit, Twilight's channel divinity is extremely powerful for its kind, but I might let it fly since it enhances the entire party. But 300 ft darkvision when the established norms are 60/120, 150 when really trying, is too silly and only makes it seem the 'balance manager' had a day off when Tasha's was finalized.