Gloom Stalker melee multiclass help

[da newt]

I'd go BM. You get so many combat tools. 2nd wind, another fighting style, action surge, maneuvers.

Trip is good, riposte is excellent, but for your 3rd move you have some options:

Commander's Strike - give your rogue an off turn attack for another sneak attack
Menacing Attack - make that guy afraid for a turn (the save DC is based off your ST + Proff Bonus)

Of note, most maneuvers work on all weapon attacks (not just melee, ranged / thrown too), and they are rarely wasted as you decide to add them after you hit (most not all).

[Segev]

Action Surge is really good on the first round for a gloom stalker, too: it's still THE FIRST ROUND, so the extra attack action gets the +1 extra attack as part of the action.

[Man_Over_Game]

Action Surge is really good on the first round for a gloom stalker, too: it's still THE FIRST ROUND, so the extra attack action gets the +1 extra attack as part of the action.

Holy crap, you're right. There's no limit per turn, it just works once per Attack Action.

Damn, never caught that. Stupid stronk.

First round of combat, ranger dives in at lightning speed, trips the first guy to the ground, and proceeds to stab him with both hands like a ****ing psychopath.

[Segev]

Holy crap, you're right. There's no limit per turn, it just works once per Attack Action.

Damn, never caught that. Stupid stronk.

One day, I want to try out a Rogue (Assassin) 3, Ranger (Gloomstalker) 3, Fighter 2. (Not sure what the combination of levels beyond that would be; obviously want to seriously consider rogue or ranger 4, if not both, for feats/ASIs, but that's the bare bones composition.)

Initiative gets Dex and Wis added to it, four attacks on an action surged opening round (6 when either Ranger or Fighter gets to 5), and likely most of those crits thanks to Assassinate and the high initiative mod.

[Goji_64]

Action Surge is really good on the first round for a gloom stalker, too: it's still THE FIRST ROUND, so the extra attack action gets the +1 extra attack as part of the action.

Yes, a huge reason I wanted to go fighter :)

The more I think about it the harder it is not to want to go Fighter. What do you guys think, GS8/BM12? At least I would get that third attack if by chance we play to 20. Any feat suggestions? Mobile?

Is Evasive Footwork work a maneuver slot if I already have Zeyphr Strike? Or vice versa?

[Segev]

Yes, a huge reason I wanted to go fighter :)

The more I think about it the harder it is not to want to go Fighter. What do you guys think, GS8/BM12? At least I would get that third attack if by chance we play to 20. Any feat suggestions? Mobile?

Is Evasive Footwork work a maneuver slot if I already have Zeyphr Strike? Or vice versa?

How likely are you to get to 20? How long will you play there? That looks like a fine build either way, but be careful about counting on level 20 to "complete" your build. There is a lot of game before then. That said, if the third attack is just "it would be nice," that's probably fine.

I still will recommend considering assassin 3 or 4 (for an ASI) for the round 1 damage maximization. You could have Assassinate and Action Surge as early as five levels from now, depending how important ASIs/feats are to you.

[Goji_64]

How likely are you to get to 20? How long will you play there? That looks like a fine build either way, but be careful about counting on level 20 to "complete" your build. There is a lot of game before then. That said, if the third attack is just "it would be nice," that's probably fine.

I still will recommend considering assassin 3 or 4 (for an ASI) for the round 1 damage maximization. You could have Assassinate and Action Surge as early as five levels from now, depending how important ASIs/feats are to you.

Yes it's just a "it would be nice" thing. For me, anything past level 12 is gravy as I feel my basic build idea will be realized by then. Our DM wants us to reach level 20, but we'll just have to see what happens.

Found a 5000gp diamond last night, that if i put it in one of my axes it would of gave me +2 AC. Another player took it, and tarnished it already. Im still upset over it...

Thought about maybe some rogue levels after fighter 4, but Im not sure if I want to go down to a d8 hit dice...and I dont fully trust my DM to give me that full assassin crit bonus

[Segev]

Yes it's just a "it would be nice" thing. For me, anything past level 12 is gravy as I feel my basic build idea will be realized by then. Our DM wants us to reach level 20, but we'll just have to see what happens.

Found a 5000gp diamond last night, that if i put it in one of my axes it would of gave me +2 AC. Another player took it, and tarnished it already. Im still upset over it...

Thought about maybe some rogue levels after fighter 4, but Im not sure if I want to go down to a d8 hit dice...and I dont fully trust my DM to give me that full assassin crit bonus

Condolences on the loss of the diamond. What did the other PC use it on?

When you say you don't trust your DM to give you the full crit bonus, do you mean he would house rule it, or is there some element of existing DM discrete that you think would be against setting it up somehow?

If it is a rule thing you think he would change, that is handled easily by discussing it with him ahead of time and finding out what he would change, if anything. If it is something else, I am unsure what, precisely, you don't trust your DM to do that would give or deny you the "full bonus."

[Goji_64]

Condolences on the loss of the diamond. What did the other PC use it on?

When you say you don't trust your DM to give you the full crit bonus, do you mean he would house rule it, or is there some element of existing DM discrete that you think would be against setting it up somehow?

If it is a rule thing you think he would change, that is handled easily by discussing it with him ahead of time and finding out what he would change, if anything. If it is something else, I am unsure what, precisely, you don't trust your DM to do that would give or deny you the "full bonus."

He has a homebrew firearm that shoots radiant bullets, he has to use diamond dust as ammunition. So he put it in a machine and started grinding some of it up. Totally unaware of its value to me.

When we played Hoard of the Dragon Queen, we had an assassin in the party. I think he thought the auto crit was super cheese so the way he handled the surprise round was a bit different. It was awhile ago so I can't recall the specifics of his ruling, but I never really saw the rogue get the crit benefit. Me and the DM have been friends for over 20 years so maybe you're right and I should just talk to him about it.

Would it be worth going levels 13-16 as rogue? Definitely want to get action surge, Bm subclass, and the ASI asap.

[Segev]

He has a homebrew firearm that shoots radiant bullets, he has to use diamond dust as ammunition. So he put it in a machine and started grinding some of it up. Totally unaware of its value to me.

When we played Hoard of the Dragon Queen, we had an assassin in the party. I think he thought the auto crit was super cheese so the way he handled the surprise round was a bit different. It was awhile ago so I can't recall the specifics of his ruling, but I never really saw the rogue get the crit benefit. Me and the DM have been friends for over 20 years so maybe you're right and I should just talk to him about it.

Would it be worth going levels 13-16 as rogue? Definitely want to get action surge, Bm subclass, and the ASI asap.

If you're not too concerned about it, and you want to discuss it with the DM, prioritizing it after you get other things you want can't hurt.

Were I personally building specifically for it, I'd be going for Gloomstalker 3, Assassin 3, Fighter 2 ASAP. I am not sure which order I'd put Assassin and Fighter in, though, as the action surge is great with Gloomstalker even without Assassinate. Yeah, probably GS 3, F2, A3, in that order, as the Assassinate part of the trick is good, but the least reliable and the one that is going to explode in effectiveness the most the more of the rest of it I have.

For your purposes, therefore, with Assassin being something you're iffy on even taking, waiting on it can't hurt. I just recommend it when you're confident you'll be able to use it, because it IS very nice with the other ingredients (even if a straight assassin is pretty lousy).

[da newt]

Of note "Gloomstalker 3, Assassin 3, Fighter 2 ASAP" would mean that your lvl 8 PC would have one attack per round (except the first round or if you action surge) and they would have zero ASI yet.


I do agree, if your DM allows conditions such that you can create a surprise round consistently and they don't nerf the auto crit of the subclass, assassin is very powerful. Unfortunately, in my experience even with a supportive DM, the likelihood of a surprise round is quite low. But if your whole party is built to stealth and the environment is often dark / confusing, and your foes can be attacked unaware - it can be deadly. But, when a surprise round occurs in 1 of 10 combats, assassin is a trap choice and you cannot benefit from sneak attack damage with your axes.

[Goji_64]

I might take a level or two of rogue for expertise, an emergency bonus action dash/disengage, and sneak attack for my bow, but I think i might avoid going for a third subclass in that case.

Though in the world were we *do* make it to 20, I think I'd rather get that third attack from fighter. Eight attacks in the opening round, plus with Tripping attack thrown in there....oh man

[Goji_64]

I am looking to take Tripping Attack, and Riposte, on top of already having Disarming Attack and Precision Attack. That leaves 1 maneuver open, which of these three would you guys recommend?

-Evasive footwork- Can cast Hunter's Mark more, and zephyr strike less
- Goading Attack- Would be used almost like a ranged "taunt"
-Maneuvering Attack- Always good to get friends into or out of trouble

Personally I am loving my melee ranger, and would encourage more people to look past that automatic view of a ranger=ranged.

[Man_Over_Game]

I am looking to take Tripping Attack, and Riposte, on top of already having Disarming Attack and Precision Attack. That leaves 1 maneuver open, which of these three would you guys recommend?

-Evasive footwork- Can cast Hunter's Mark more, and zephyr strike less
- Goading Attack- Would be used almost like a ranged "taunt"
-Maneuvering Attack- Always good to get friends into or out of trouble

Personally I am loving my melee ranger, and would encourage more people to look past that automatic view of a ranger=ranged.

As a melee, you're almost always going to be the one that goes down first, I wouldn't worry too much about protecting your friends unless it proves to be a problem, which is why Goading Strike is almost always better on a ranged character.

On that note, I'd recommend Evasive Footwork.

[Segev]

As a melee, you're almost always going to be the one that goes down first, I wouldn't worry too much about protecting your friends unless it proves to be a problem, which is why Goading Strike is almost always better on a ranged character.

On that note, I'd recommend Evasive Footwork.

This assumes enemies will focus on the melee first. This is not always a safe assumption, especially if the most dangerous people on your team are also the squishiest. It might be worth rushing past the melee to get to the back lines, AO and all, if the melee doesn't have means of making them seriously regret that and/or succeed less well at it.

[Man_Over_Game]

This assumes enemies will focus on the melee first. This is not always a safe assumption, especially if the most dangerous people on your team are also the squishiest. It might be worth rushing past the melee to get to the back lines, AO and all, if the melee doesn't have means of making them seriously regret that and/or succeed less well at it.

Yeah, but it's safer to assume that an enemy is going to attack the first thing it runs into.

There may be DMs that have some melee enemies that ignore the front line (50% chance), and there may be DMs that have all of their melee enemies engage the front line (100% chance), but taking both types of DMs into account means that you have a higher chance of being engaged as a melee character than being a ranged character (75% chance).

That's why I'd recommend assuming you're the one that's going to die first, and then just make adjustments based on how true that turned out to be after some experience with that table. Worst-case scenario, you protect your back line as well as any other Fighter could have until you can switch things up.

[Yakk]

Tortle Gloom Stalker, currently level 6

First, Ranger 6 sucks hard. FE and NE are ribbon features that wheren't good at level 1, and getting a new copy of them at level 6 is worse.

See if you can retcon away Ranger 6.

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Next, Gloom 5/BM 3/Assassin 3 is a fun build. The downside is that your sneak attack dice don't work with battleaxes.

You get a 6 round first initiative round.

If you can arrange for surprise (scout ahead) and pre-cast HM (90 foot range, no obvious effect on target, but V component) before combat, and I'll assume you have a battleaxe and a 1d4 finesse weapon (say, a whip). With advantage. Assuming you burn BM dice on precision so everything hits...

Dice: Gloom is +1d8, BA is 1d8x6, gem is 1d6x6, Finesse off-hand 1d4+2d6, HM 7d6. All critical. So 14d8+2d4+30d6 is 173 damage from dice.
Static: 4*7 = 28 from static damage (yawn).
Total: 201 on average.

You can throw in some BM damage for 1d8 x2 for critical apiece, but seems overkill.

A more normal round is BA 2d8 + gem 2d6 + finesse off-hand 1d4+2d6 and 12 static damage for 37.5 damage.

Basically you become an ambush predator. You should only use the above strategy rarely, for the simple reason that if the DM scales opponents to survive it, a normal fight will be a TPK when it fails.

If used rarely, you get to kill a foe in one round with surprise when strategically fun.

The above gets almost +50% damage on first round from gloomstalker, double damage on surprise, and double damage with action surge, for a x6 damage multiplier (roughly) for that assassination round. The actual multiplier is 5.4x because the doubles and 50% boost aren't quite doubles, just close.

[Goji_64]

First, Ranger 6 sucks hard. FE and NE are ribbon features that wheren't good at level 1, and getting a new copy of them at level 6 is worse.

See if you can retcon away Ranger 6.

It might not be the popular opinion but I enjoy the flavor FE and NE add to the character. And while they add next to nothing, esp in combat, they certainly don't subtract anything from the class. I plan on going ranger 8 becuase gloom stalker 7 for free wisdom save proficiency is huge imo, and without that 8th level ASI I cannot, as per RAW, multiclass out.

Others have suggested Assassin too, and while I definitely do appreciate the suggestions, relying on that surpise critical is too much set up and a gamble for me. Unless I can help him out with Pass Without a Trace, our Echo Knight usually has some pretty unlucky stealth rolls. Finally, I have dual battle axes so neither would proc sneak attack, and I greatly value them over sneak attack.

M.O.G., once again thank you. Like the way you think.

[Segev]

It might not be the popular opinion but I enjoy the flavor FE and NE add to the character. And while they add next to nothing, esp in combat, they certainly don't subtract anything from the class. I plan on going ranger 8 becuase gloom stalker 7 for free wisdom save proficiency is huge imo, and without that 8th level ASI I cannot, as per RAW, multiclass out.

Others have suggested Assassin too, and while I definitely do appreciate the suggestions, relying on that surpise critical is too much set up and a gamble for me. Unless I can help him out with Pass Without a Trace, our Echo Knight usually has some pretty unlucky stealth rolls. Finally, I have dual battle axes so neither would proc sneak attack, and I greatly value them over sneak attack.

M.O.G., once again thank you. Like the way you think.

They're not well-balanced yet, but if you're feeling underpowered with FE and NE (and I don't know that you are), you might see if your DM is okay with homebrewed augmenting features for them: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

[Yakk]

It is just level 6 gives nothing but an upgrade to FE/NE that wasn't good enough to pick first. Ie, it is a worse level than level 1, which already was a meh level for a Ranger.

If you are going for 8, ya gotta get through it.

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BM3 is better than Assassin 3 I think. 2d6 sneak on a worse weapon is mostly a wash, and action surge beats assassinate (2x action better than 2x dice) ignoring advantage. Ass 3 does give expertise and cunning action.

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But to get on why I am doen on Ranger 5 to 8, you get 1 level of spellcasting, FE/NE and an ASI.

Compared to srcond wind, fighting style, action surge, and superiority. The worst level is fighter 1, and it ain't horrible.

[Goji_64]

They're not well-balanced yet, but if you're feeling underpowered with FE and NE (and I don't know that you are), you might see if your DM is okay with homebrewed augmenting features for them: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

Having picked Monstrosities, Aberrations, Swamps, and the Underdark...I gotta say those are some really cool changes. Did you come up with these?

Thankfully I dont feel underpowered though. My axes are pretty powerful so it really helps me counteract some of these lackluster features

[Goji_64]

It is just level 6 gives nothing but an upgrade to FE/NE that wasn't good enough to pick first. Ie, it is a worse level than level 1, which already was a meh level for a Ranger.

If you are going for 8, ya gotta get through it.

--

BM3 is better than Assassin 3 I think. 2d6 sneak on a worse weapon is mostly a wash, and action surge beats assassinate (2x action better than 2x dice) ignoring advantage. Ass 3 does give expertise and cunning action.

--

But to get on why I am doen on Ranger 5 to 8, you get 1 level of spellcasting, FE/NE and an ASI.

Compared to srcond wind, fighting style, action surge, and superiority. The worst level is fighter 1, and it ain't horrible.

Sure level 6 aint anything great, but for me at least Iron Mind at GS7 makes up for it. It maybe not be a sexy feature and maybe I'm overvaluing it but I played a one shot as a level 17 samurai that escaped an astral dreadnought because of wisdom save proficiency. Been a fan ever since 😀

[Yakk]

I did miss the subclass feature.

Iron mind is a half asi (literally, it is half of a feat).

So 1.5 ASI, 1 caster level, and 2 ribbons (the 2 ribbons are worse than the ones you get at level 1).

[Goji_64]

Thoughts on instead of a BM fighter multiclass, just a 2 level barbarian dip? Would be level 9-10 for Rage, Reckless Attack, and Danger Sense.

How much synergy would they have together? Rage is another bonus action but is the extra damage and resistance worth the tradeoff? I love the idea of having Danger Sense, but is that worth it at level 10? I figure in this instance, rage is there for me when I get into trouble, or the BBEG, and I could use my Ranger spells otherwise (for melee or ranged fighting), leaning heavily on spells for when I need ranged attacks.

Just fought an Elder Brain last session and while we killed it, I don't really feel I contributed too much to the fight. The brain came out of a "black pool of liquid" as my DM described it which made me veeeeery hesitant to stride into melee. Used my bow for the first round to take advantage of Dread Ambusher, but other then that I really more took care of the adds the brain was summoning with my axes. After the fight ended I found out the black liquid was just basically black water, and my DM described it as such just to play mind games with us (clever), to instill some fear in the fight. It was a really fun fight but it just left me questioning if I should sacrifice combat versatility for going so heavily focused into melee with battle master.

What do you guys think?

[da newt]

A Barbarian Dip can be quite handy, but it creates a decision tree - do I rage or do I use my spells? BM doesn't make you choose this or that, it only adds more capability.

The ADV on athletics while raging is nice for grapple & shove, danger sense is handy, PSB damage resistance is great, and reckless is handy (especially for GWM).

If you do go Barb 2, you might as well go 3 for a subclass - bear totem is an easy pick, ancestral guardian can be a game changer.

[Goji_64]

A Barbarian Dip can be quite handy, but it creates a decision tree - do I rage or do I use my spells? BM doesn't make you choose this or that, it only adds more capability.

The ADV on athletics while raging is nice for grapple & shove, danger sense is handy, PSB damage resistance is great, and reckless is handy (especially for GWM).

If you do go Barb 2, you might as well go 3 for a subclass - bear totem is an easy pick, ancestral guardian can be a game changer.

Yeah, I was actually looking at Eagle totem. It's too bad wolf totem is adv on melee attacks only as it's just me and the fighter upfront, really.

Another reason I am considering barb is because I would want to reflavor rage as me entering a new fighting stance. My character shifts his stance and is now in perfect fighting form, making his strikes deadlier and improving his defenses...that sort of thing. Idk if thats worth picking over the mechanical dominance of battle master though.