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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Just to chip in that we can look at the ICV2 numbers of what game stores think are the hottest games for another perspective on what is popular - broadly; retailers think Star Wars and Starfinder sell with Alien as a hot new thing.

    The following is a ranked list of how often games have placed in the top 5 since 2015 (13 reports; D&D appeared in all of them to give a sense of perspective)

    Dungeons & Dragons 13
    Pathfinder 12
    Star Wars (FFG) 11
    Starfinder 5
    Shadowrun 6
    Fantasy/Dragon Age 3
    World of Darkness 3
    Alien 2
    Cyberpunk 2
    Iron Kingdoms 1
    Adventures in Middle Earth 1
    Call of Cthulhu 7th Edition 1
    Genesys (FFG) 1
    Legend of the Five Rings (FFG) 1
    Star Trek Adventures 1
    Fate 1

    This focuses on the US market but given that is ~2/3 of the whole show we can say it should be representative. I am alas too new to post a link - google "ICV2 rpg sales"

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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    No Palladium Robotech?

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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    As far as Warhammer 40k goes, I have noticed from a long time in the community, that there is a notable UK and EU skew to its popularity, with it being notably less popular in the US. It obviously makes sense that it has strong UK popularity (my entire friend circle lives within 20 miles of Games Workshops HQ), but I have always wondered why it was so popular in the EU, considering how much of the warhammer world is parodying european nations.

    I notice no one has mentioned Alternity. Granted, its first edition has been dead as long as TSR, but I know it had a kickstarter new edition in the last few years (as my brother got it), but never seen anyone playing it.
    Last edited by Glorthindel; 2021-04-30 at 07:29 AM.

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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    No Palladium Robotech?

    Hasn't that game been out of print for 20+ years?

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    It obviously makes sense that it has strong UK popularity (my entire friend circle lives within 20 miles of Games Workshops HQ), but I have always wondered why it was so popular in the EU, considering how much of the warhammer world is parodying european nations.
    I imagine that might be part of the appeal. A game like Grand Theft Auto is extremely popular in the US despite parodying a lot about American culture. A lot of people like laughing about themselves (or possibly laughing about countrymen they disagree with).

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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Hasn't that game been out of print for 20+ years?
    Yes. Yes it has.
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2021-04-30 at 08:49 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Just because a game is out of print doesn't mean it isn't still an active game which is why going by 2015 and later is inefficient and would give you false numbers. There are a load of players still playing d6 Star Wars due to simply being a good game with a ton of material available for free and no proprietary dice. They also reprinted the anniversary book a year or so back.

    Hell, AD&D 2nd and 1st editions still have a very popular following with large numbers of people playing them and they are what 20+ years OOP? I would venture to say they are likely the 3rd most popular ttrpg being played even.

    I personally don't know anyone playing Robotech or Rifts but both are difficult mechanics games to play and the latter is still in print and releasing new material. I do know people still playing the long out of print Heroes Unlimited from Palladium. I am aware that the Savage Worlds version of Rifts seems to be popular so there is that and it is likely a strong #3 of popular sci-fi games.

    Just at a guess I would say Star Wars in general split between the three systems is easily #1 so pick your poison on which. Starfinder is likely #2 because it is in print and is being pushed by a strong and popular company. #3 would be Savage World Rifts mainly because I hear a lot of chatter all the time so that might just be my little bubble. I honestly have never seen or heard anyone talk about playing or having played Traveler. I know of the system but not much about it.

    These are just sci-fi. If you want to class cyberpunk as sci-fi then Shadowrun and Cyberpunk are probably neck and neck for #2 and #3 easily pushing aside everything except Star Wars. I think if they keep pushing Cyberpunk Red then it and its so much simpler system will eclipse the dice nightmare that is modern Shadowrun in the near future.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    It obviously makes sense that it has strong UK popularity (my entire friend circle lives within 20 miles of Games Workshops HQ), but I have always wondered why it was so popular in the EU, considering how much of the warhammer world is parodying european nations.
    As said above it's probably the reason, both Warhammer and 40k draw from and parody European cultures, and honestly isn't much kinder to the UK then anybody else. I think it's relative lack of popularity in America might partially be it's lack of a true America parody combined with not grabbing the teenaged market as it did here (I mean, did you ever see who hung out at GW stores before the pandemic?).

    If any of my friends and partners have ever played wargames it was Warhammer, probably 40k, and they played it in their teenaged years. Even the ones who've played other games began with Warhammer. It dominates the more casual and introductory market.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Fair point on 2015 being pretty recent - I have dug back as far as I could find which is only to 2005 - so we are still missing the 80s / 90s but this is what we have to work with. I have a vague memory of old White Dwarf surveys that covered what people were playing? Anyone who could point to those - that would be great.

    So - from 50 icv2.com retailer surveys back to 2004 of "Top Five Roleplaying Games" we get:
    Dungeons & Dragons 48
    Pathfinder 31
    World of Darkness 23
    Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader 20
    Star Wars (FFG) 18
    Shadowrun 17
    Fantasy/Dragon Age 11
    Exalted 8
    Mutants & Masterminds 7
    WHFRP 2E (BI/GR) 7
    Starfinder 5
    Iron Kingdoms 5
    Fate Core System 4
    Mongoose (Traveller?) 4
    WHFRP 3E (FFG) 4
    Green Ronin** 3
    GURPS 3
    Scion 3
    Alien 2
    Cyberpunk 2
    Mutants and Masterminds, inc. DC 2
    Numenera 2
    Song of Ice and Fire 2
    Star Wars (WotC) 2
    Adventures in Middle Earth 1
    Call of Cthulhu 7th Edition 1
    Genesys (FFG) 1
    Legend of the Five Rings (FFG) 1
    Star Trek Adventures 1
    Fate 1
    Battlestar Galactica 1
    BESM 1
    Dresden Files 1
    Dungeon Crawl Classics 1
    Marvel Heroic Roleplaying 1
    The One Ring 1

    The notable change is there was a Mongoose (assume Traveller?) moment back in 2005.

    So thats the data - my story says there wasn't a lot of it around when we were playing back in the 90s. If it wasn't fantasy it was X-files or Matrix inspired 'shades and trench-coats' stuff - either Shadowrun, Con-X or a fairly splatter-fest take on WoD - all the sci-fi stuff was on the wargame tables as Battletech or 40k. I knew some guys who ran a long-running Star Wars campaign, there were a few stand-out LARPs on the con circuit but that was it. If you were throwing dice at a table it was lots and lots of D&D and L5R, maybe WoD or Shadowrun.

    Anyone any ideas why our screens are full of sci-fi - so obviously people have time for it - but not our tables?
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Mongoose's 1st edition of Traveller came out in 2008. They put out the XP version of Paranoia in 2004, so it's probably Paranoia that was a hit in 2005.

    In the '90s for sci-fi RPGs I was playing Traveller (MegaTraveller, TNE, T4, and GURPS Traveller), Mechwarrior, Shadowrun, Rifts (a very little), 2300 AD (a nice long campaign), Star Wars (WEG), Star Trek (Fasa), various GURPS settings (I played a dolphin in a GURPS Uplift game), Paranoia, Star Frontiers, and Cyberpunk (my group liked Shadowrun better). Twilight:2000 and Spelljammer probably don't count as sci-fi.

    I bought but never played Space 1889 and TSR's Buck Rogers game too.
    Last edited by Jason; 2021-04-30 at 02:33 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Some of us are both.

    Edit: Opinion: Starfinder is less science fiction than Star Wars, it is literally a space wizards game.

    Suggestion: Clarify if you're looking for a space fantasy rpg, science fiction rpg, or a blend. I mean, Paranoia has more science bits than Star Wars or Starfinder.
    While I just started a Starfinder campaign recently, I have found it to be about as science fiction as Star Wars, and a bit more so than Warhammer 40k. Both of which I have played several campaigns in.
    I have no opinions on Paranoia, as I have only looked through one of the earlier versions, and didn't find it to be what I wanted then.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    As far as Warhammer 40k goes, I have noticed from a long time in the community, that there is a notable UK and EU skew to its popularity, with it being notably less popular in the US. It obviously makes sense that it has strong UK popularity (my entire friend circle lives within 20 miles of Games Workshops HQ), but I have always wondered why it was so popular in the EU, considering how much of the warhammer world is parodying european nations.

    I notice no one has mentioned Alternity. Granted, its first edition has been dead as long as TSR, but I know it had a kickstarter new edition in the last few years (as my brother got it), but never seen anyone playing it.
    Warhammer 40k is, by far, the most popular build-and-paint war game in the US. Bar none. Other games have popped up that challenge 40k for dominance but they always wind up failing to maintain their popularity (i.e. Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, Star Wars Legion, ASoIF, Mantic, Flames of War, Bolt Action, Malifaux, Frostgrave, etc.).

    In May of 2020, Games Workshop operated 153 stores in the US, while it operated 140 stores in the whole of the UK. The UK is 40 times smaller than the US, yet it operated almost the same number of stores. The market penetration GW has in the UK is in a whole other league as compared to the US, where GW relies far more on independent retailers to market and stock their games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunsetWaraxe View Post
    Warhammer 40k is, by far, the most popular build-and-paint war game in the US. Bar none. Other games have popped up that challenge 40k for dominance but they always wind up failing to maintain their popularity (i.e. Warmachine/Hordes, Infinity, Star Wars Legion, ASoIF, Mantic, Flames of War, Bolt Action, Malifaux, Frostgrave, etc.).

    In May of 2020, Games Workshop operated 153 stores in the US, while it operated 140 stores in the whole of the UK. The UK is 40 times smaller than the US, yet it operated almost the same number of stores. The market penetration GW has in the UK is in a whole other league as compared to the US, where GW relies far more on independent retailers to market and stock their games.
    Yeah, it kind of weirded me out going into a games shop in the US and seeing GW kits the first time it happened.

    I will note that, while it's not as easy to get people together as it is for a D&D game, a 40k RPG is in my experience one of the easier sells over here. About as easy as Star Wars, which shows how massive the game is among my generation (I joke about how the only real options for teenagers in my hometown were Warhammer and amorous activities. This is a bald faced lie, as binge drinking was also an option). I also sometimes get disappointed that WFRP isn't the most popular fantasy RPG over here, and that most people I know haven't heard about games from British publishers/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    GW has always been big here in the States in the table top community. I have never had to try hard to find a store to buy stuff although an actual GW store for me is a new concept. In fact, even deploying to different parts of the country for missions I would typically bring a small numbered force to get a game in pretty much expecting there to be somewhere nearby to play and have never been disappointed. I can drive 45 minutes and be at 7 stores including the one actual GW store(that I rarely go to) on a Saturday during normal times(ie not covid) and expect to be able to get a pick up game. It is the game store standard game for in store gaming. That said, he was asking about RPGs and Warhammer 40k isn't an rpg. It has that fantasy flight game based off of it but those never really got off the ground anywhere I have been although maybe there is a thriving at home community playing it I just never heard of.
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    40K has been consistently popular in the US since the early '90s, when I had time and money to buy and paint miniatures and my group was into it.
    Today most of the game stores in my area are 40K and board game focused, with some Magic: the Gathering and then RPGs something of an afterthought, usually only the latest D&D titles and a smattering of other new stuff. Amazon and .pdf downloads have basically killed the RPG-focused game store of my youth.

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    Agreed. Card Boxes were starting to hit the game stores here to the point where they wouldn't even think about opening a store since a good chunk of most any store's income is card games. I am hoping that Covid's shuttering of many of them will give regular stores a chance to move into the market. I have a bunch of stores in that 45 minute area but not a single one inside 30 minutes with tolls and I live 17 minutes from the Orlando Airport and 20 or so from UCF, the biggest on campus university in the country. The card boxes though shut everyone else out on this end of town.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorthindel View Post
    I notice no one has mentioned Alternity. Granted, its first edition has been dead as long as TSR, but I know it had a kickstarter new edition in the last few years (as my brother got it), but never seen anyone playing it.
    2e's come out, and pretty much gone unnoticed. It's a shame, as a crunchy but not overly heavy generic SF it's actually pretty decent, and levelled but classless is the least common way to do an RPG.

    But it's nothing special, Protostar seems to be pretty generic, and the more out there Dark Nebula might be too close conceptually to Fading Suns. It's not bad, it's incredibly solid, but there's not a ton going for it. Even a decent 'build an alien PC race' system would have helped it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    I think part of the issue, at least as I see it, is that sci-fi games tend to rely more heavily on a particular setting or "brand" as central to their appeal: you're not playing a sci-fi game, you're playing a Star Wars game, or a Warhammer 40K game, or a Traveller game. You're coming as much for the franchise as you are for the roleplay experience.

    Even more ostensibly generic games like Scum and Villainy not tied to a specific property have some specific worldbuilding that informs what stories it's trying to tell and what characters the players are incentivized to play. Beyond that, the only other sci-fi games I've encountered are space-themed hacks of generic game systems like FATE or Savage Worlds, often attempts to recreate a sci-fi property that doesn't have its own tabletop spinoff, like Mass Effect or something, and then of course there's the inevitable attempt to twist and cram a homebrew sci-fi setting into D&D's ruleset.

    It's a lot easier for a game to speak in generalities with a fantasy setting for an RPG, but from my observation people's expectations are higher for sci-fi. Like, if games were ice cream, fantasy is vanilla, but in scifi's case there's things like rocky road and neapolitan and there's even mint chocolate chip and cookies and cream but no one orders just plain chocolate, if that analogy makes sense.
    Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2021-05-07 at 02:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    I think part of the issue, at least as I see it, is that sci-fi games tend to rely more heavily on a particular setting or "brand" as central to their appeal: you're not playing a sci-fi game, you're playing a Star Wars game, or a Warhammer 40K game, or a Traveller game. You're coming as much for the franchise as you are for the roleplay experience.

    Even more ostensibly generic games like Scum and Villainy not tied to a specific property have some specific worldbuilding that informs what stories it's trying to tell and what characters the players are incentivized to play. Beyond that, the only other sci-fi games I've encountered are space-themed hacks of generic game systems like FATE or Savage Worlds, often attempts to recreate a sci-fi property that doesn't have its own tabletop spinoff, like Mass Effect or something, and then of course there's the inevitable attempt to twist and cram a homebrew sci-fi setting into D&D's ruleset.

    It's a lot easier for a game to speak in generalities with a fantasy setting for an RPG, but from my observation people's expectations are higher for sci-fi. Like, if games were ice cream, fantasy is vanilla, but in scifi's case there's things like rocky road and neapolitan and there's even mint chocolate chip and cookies and cream but no one orders just plain chocolate, if that analogy makes sense.
    Honestly, I don't think that it's that fantasy RPGs are actually more generic, it's just that people assume they are. It's also a bit weird that we use 'fantasy RPG' and actually mean 'Heroic Fantasy RPG' most of the time, but we don't really tend to assume a specific genre of science fiction RPG, lumping Space Opera, Cyberpunk, and even post-apocalyptic RPGs into the group.

    In theory a generic fantasy game would handle European Heroic Fantasy, Dark Mythological Fantasy, and High Wuxia all under the same ruleset. I can't actually think of anything that does, at least without really getting on the sourcebook treadmill. In fact I own more fantasy RPGs than science fiction RPGs, and while they tend to be less honest about their assumed setting (for Heroic Medieval Europe ones at least) it's still there. The way you set up your magic system matters as much as the way you set up star travel. There's a reason the 'D&D in Middle-Earth' book suggests that you shouldn't use the core classes that didn't get reprinted.

    That's why Osprey Games has been able to release four fantasy RPGs (with a fifth on the way) and one science fiction RPG in the last two years. The SF one, those Dark Places, is exactly as you described for SF RPGs, while the explicit setting is limited to two pages and what we can extrapolated from it's talk of ships and bases, it has consistent theming that's one part Alien, one part Western, and arguably one part Revelation Space. But the exact same thing can be applied to the fantasy games, whether that's Romance of the Perilous Land's mix of British folklore with some elements of D&D, Paleomythic and it's stone age Conanism, Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades and it's more gritty take on Wuxia, or Jackals and it's bronze age war setting. And I'm being somewhat unfair to all the fantasy RPGs, as it's hard to get every element in a single phrase.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Honestly, I don't think that it's that fantasy RPGs are actually more generic, it's just that people assume they are. It's also a bit weird that we use 'fantasy RPG' and actually mean 'Heroic Fantasy RPG' most of the time, but we don't really tend to assume a specific genre of science fiction RPG, lumping Space Opera, Cyberpunk, and even post-apocalyptic RPGs into the group.

    In theory a generic fantasy game would handle European Heroic Fantasy, Dark Mythological Fantasy, and High Wuxia all under the same ruleset. I can't actually think of anything that does, at least without really getting on the sourcebook treadmill. In fact I own more fantasy RPGs than science fiction RPGs, and while they tend to be less honest about their assumed setting (for Heroic Medieval Europe ones at least) it's still there. The way you set up your magic system matters as much as the way you set up star travel. There's a reason the 'D&D in Middle-Earth' book suggests that you shouldn't use the core classes that didn't get reprinted.

    That's why Osprey Games has been able to release four fantasy RPGs (with a fifth on the way) and one science fiction RPG in the last two years. The SF one, those Dark Places, is exactly as you described for SF RPGs, while the explicit setting is limited to two pages and what we can extrapolated from it's talk of ships and bases, it has consistent theming that's one part Alien, one part Western, and arguably one part Revelation Space. But the exact same thing can be applied to the fantasy games, whether that's Romance of the Perilous Land's mix of British folklore with some elements of D&D, Paleomythic and it's stone age Conanism, Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades and it's more gritty take on Wuxia, or Jackals and it's bronze age war setting. And I'm being somewhat unfair to all the fantasy RPGs, as it's hard to get every element in a single phrase.
    I mean, the reason for that assumption is because Dungeons and Dragons has been around so long, and cast such a wide shadow, that most gamers just default to it, regardless of specifics. Forgotten Realms, over the years, has tried to cram all those different styles you mentioned in to the same setting, and it's only become more pronounced as FR became the primary D&D setting through sheer inertia. And Pathfinder did the same thing with Golarion. When people say "Fantasy RPG," most of the time what they mean is "Dungeons and Dragons," and what I'm trying to say is that there isn't really a "Dungeons and Dragons" tier sci-fi RPG, though Lord knows Starfinder is TRYING to be that...
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    I mean, the reason for that assumption is because Dungeons and Dragons has been around so long, and cast such a wide shadow, that most gamers just default to it, regardless of specifics. Forgotten Realms, over the years, has tried to cram all those different styles you mentioned in to the same setting, and it's only become more pronounced as FR became the primary D&D setting through sheer inertia. And Pathfinder did the same thing with Golarion. When people say "Fantasy RPG," most of the time what they mean is "Dungeons and Dragons," and what I'm trying to say is that there isn't really a "Dungeons and Dragons" tier sci-fi RPG, though Lord knows Starfinder is TRYING to be that...
    Yeah, I understand and agree with that (and am heavily annoyed by it). I get really, really annoyed when people mistake 'common set of assumptions' for 'generic' fpor precisely that reason. Plus urgh, D&D is so bad at Wuxia as written (but I understand this forum has worked out a decent way with ToB and 3.X), but I don't want to do another rant.

    The only other RPG that is D&D tier is, honestly, oWoD, and even it's fallen by the wayside. But that's a somewhat separate discussion. But lumping all of fantasy (or SF) together annoys me because it ignores all the wonderful diversity in the genre. D&D especially annoys me because by sticking everything together it loses a lot of nuance and causes issues (do not get me started on monks versus Monks*, or the implication that Fighters aren't martial artists created by the rules).

    * Oh, and how the game refuses to try to integrate them into the default fluff properly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    I don't know if it's a force that pulls people to fantasy and very established IP, but the mental exertion to describe/ imagine/ visualize the world in the aforementioned is much less than unique SciFi.

    If I say "you enter a warmly lit tavern, a halfing host greets you" there's enough common canon that you can fill in much of the gaps and picture a good chunk of the scene.

    If I say "you enter the clean cantina, a green twi'lek host greets you" if you know star wars, there may be a few questions to help picture it. But again, a good chunk of the details can be visualized off one sentence.

    Now I say "you enter the xeno-bar, a gorshmoosh host greets you", to most people that does nothing to begin painting a picture.

    A lot more elaboration is required in the last example. I wonder if it isn't too taxing for the largely casual newcomers to ttrpgs.

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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    I mean, the reason for that assumption is because Dungeons and Dragons has been around so long, and cast such a wide shadow, that most gamers just default to it, regardless of specifics. Forgotten Realms, over the years, has tried to cram all those different styles you mentioned in to the same setting, and it's only become more pronounced as FR became the primary D&D setting through sheer inertia. And Pathfinder did the same thing with Golarion. When people say "Fantasy RPG," most of the time what they mean is "Dungeons and Dragons," and what I'm trying to say is that there isn't really a "Dungeons and Dragons" tier sci-fi RPG, though Lord knows Starfinder is TRYING to be that...
    It's interesting to note that this situation is basically a mirror of fantasy and sci-fi as a whole, where Lord of the Rings is still basically the fantasy novel to the point that having elves and dwarves is basically considered the default. Meanwhile, there are some big sci-fi franchises (Star Wars1, Star Trek, etc.) but none with the sheer influence on the genre that LotR has, I think.

    (1 Let's not get into the whole "Is Star Wars sci-fi or fantasy?" discussion right now)
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by TyGuy View Post
    I don't know if it's a force that pulls people to fantasy and very established IP, but the mental exertion to describe/ imagine/ visualize the world in the aforementioned is much less than unique SciFi.

    If I say "you enter a warmly lit tavern, a halfing host greets you" there's enough common canon that you can fill in much of the gaps and picture a good chunk of the scene.

    If I say "you enter the clean cantina, a green twi'lek host greets you" if you know star wars, there may be a few questions to help picture it. But again, a good chunk of the details can be visualized off one sentence.

    Now I say "you enter the xeno-bar, a gorshmoosh host greets you", to most people that does nothing to begin painting a picture.

    A lot more elaboration is required in the last example. I wonder if it isn't too taxing for the largely casual newcomers to ttrpgs.
    'You enter the bar and order a drink from the bartender, her replacement arm whirring as she pours soybooze into a glass.'

    See, it's easier if you give science fiction the same treatment as fantasy and actually incorporate elements of a subgenre.

    'You enter the xeno-bar, and are by a lilac lagomorph in a top hat.'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    It's interesting to note that this situation is basically a mirror of fantasy and sci-fi as a whole, where Lord of the Rings is still basically the fantasy novel to the point that having elves and dwarves is basically considered the default. Meanwhile, there are some big sci-fi franchises (Star Wars1, Star Trek, etc.) but none with the sheer influence on the genre that LotR has, I think.

    (1 Let's not get into the whole "Is Star Wars sci-fi or fantasy?" discussion right now)
    I don't think this is true of fantasy anymore, outside of gaming. I can't think of the last time I've seen a fantasy novel with dwarves or elves in it that wasn't set in a universe created like 20+ years ago. Anymore one hardly gets any sapient species besides humans at all. Nowadays it's all oppressed wizards solving colonialism.

    Within gaming related properties these remain much more default, probably because they require basically no explanation at a thematic level, and remain useful shorthands for particular gameplay archetypes. If you want to be tough, go dwarf. Fast, go elf, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    I don't think this is true of fantasy anymore, outside of gaming. I can't think of the last time I've seen a fantasy novel with dwarves or elves in it that wasn't set in a universe created like 20+ years ago. Anymore one hardly gets any sapient species besides humans at all. Nowadays it's all oppressed wizards solving colonialism.
    I agree that it's less true than it used to be, at least. But I do think Tolkien's influence is stronger than any comparable author in sci-fi. The most obvious stuff like elves and dwarves may be fading, but the idea of default fantasy taking place in a vaguely European, vaguely medieval world is still fairly common, even if it's growing weaker.

    But you probably have a point about that development being slower in gaming (both tabletop and video) than fiction in general. Presumably an effect of D&Ds influence.

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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    *cough* Doc Smith *cough* Asimov *cough*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Yeah, I understand and agree with that (and am heavily annoyed by it). I get really, really annoyed when people mistake 'common set of assumptions' for 'generic' for precisely that reason.
    Yeh, it bugs me too.
    Plus urgh, D&D is so bad at Wuxia as written (but I understand this forum has worked out a decent way with ToB and 3.X), but I don't want to do another rant.
    No need, I understand EXACTLY what you're saying. And honestly, if you want to really get into a Wuxia story, you really have to play a game specifically designed for it. We are starting to see more games that do that, though, which is a good thing. That's also part of why we're seeing Afrofuturism games and stuff which is cool too!
    The only other RPG that is D&D tier is, honestly, oWoD, and even it's fallen by the wayside. But that's a somewhat separate discussion. But lumping all of fantasy (or SF) together annoys me because it ignores all the wonderful diversity in the genre. D&D especially annoys me because by sticking everything together it loses a lot of nuance and causes issues (do not get me started on monks versus Monks*, or the implication that Fighters aren't martial artists created by the rules).

    * Oh, and how the game refuses to try to integrate them into the default fluff properly.
    While I greatly enjoy Golarion as a setting, your point stands (at least Paizo is now attempting to think through some of the stuff in their setting and fill in the blanks with their 2nd Edition). What I'm trying to say is I think that specificity is sort of necessary in a sci-fi game of any kind, and it's more that the fantasy genre is catching up to that diversity after having been dominated by D&D for so long.
    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    I don't think this is true of fantasy anymore, outside of gaming. I can't think of the last time I've seen a fantasy novel with dwarves or elves in it that wasn't set in a universe created like 20+ years ago. Anymore one hardly gets any sapient species besides humans at all. Nowadays it's all oppressed wizards solving colonialism.

    Within gaming related properties these remain much more default, probably because they require basically no explanation at a thematic level, and remain useful shorthands for particular gameplay archetypes. If you want to be tough, go dwarf. Fast, go elf, etc.
    EXACTLY! And we're starting to see more fantasy GAMES about oppressed wizards solving colonialism or other such stuff, which is a very cool thing! Like I said, it feels like this stuff was more present in sci-fi than it was in the fantasy genre, and what's happening now is fantasy is playing catch up as a genre, and that's why you have 10 different sci-fi games, each with their own specific niche, but for fantasy games people just seem to instinctually try and shape their ideas to fit D&D's mechanics and core assumptions, rather than come up with their own mechanics that better suit their game and the story their game is trying to tell. About the only fantasy game I can think of that dodged this was Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and that's mainly because it has that degree of specificity in its setting and core assumptions is powerful enough to override D&D's hegemony, but also condemns it to niche status.
    Last edited by Archpaladin Zousha; 2021-05-08 at 05:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    *cough* Doc Smith *cough* Asimov *cough*
    But even Lensmen or Foundation, or Starship Troopers or Dune or Ringworld or Neuromancer, they're all great books, but none of them are really the Lord of the Rings of science fiction. For whatever reason there is no equivalent. Nothing quite so obviously dominant in its influence on everything that came after it.

    Star Wars is the equivalent for science fiction film, but it didn't affect sci-fi literature nearly as much.
    Last edited by Jason; 2021-05-09 at 02:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Which SciFi ttrpg has the largest player base?

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    Yeh, it bugs me too.

    No need, I understand EXACTLY what you're saying. And honestly, if you want to really get into a Wuxia story, you really have to play a game specifically designed for it. We are starting to see more games that do that, though, which is a good thing. That's also part of why we're seeing Afrofuturism games and stuff which is cool too!
    Oh yeah, I own three Wuxia games they cover the genre in different ways (Legends of the Wulin, Win: the Warring States, and Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades). I actually live the fastest RPG scene at the moment, except for D&D's ridiculous dominance.

    One of the things I've tried to do with my collection is pick up games that aren't Americentric, it can be a problem for games set in the modern era of future. Don't get me wrong, some of my favourite games focus on the US, but picking up European games has been a nice experience (UK ones are especially nice just because in reading the spellings I see every day).

    While I greatly enjoy Golarion as a setting, your point stands (at least Paizo is now attempting to think through some of the stuff in their setting and fill in the blanks with their 2nd Edition). What I'm trying to say is I think that specificity is sort of necessary in a sci-fi game of any kind, and it's more that the fantasy genre is catching up to that diversity after having been dominated by D&D for so long.
    Yeah, honestly if D&D died out and fantasy RPGs engraved their diversity instead of trying to cram everything in I think it'll be better.

    D&D has always worked as a high magic heroic fantasy game, and in some editions even a low magic one. The issue isn't the existence of D&D or Pathfinder, but the fact that they try to pretend they're everything.

    I like Starfinder though, desire people trying to bash it into shapes it isn't I think it's a good mix of soft-medium science fiction and heroic fantasy. The most I do is change the Drift to work more like standard hyperspace or substitute another FTL system (generally working at an assumption of one parsec per point of drive rating per day).

    EXACTLY! And we're starting to see more fantasy GAMES about oppressed wizards solving colonialism or other such stuff, which is a very cool thing! Like I said, it feels like this stuff was more present in sci-fi than it was in the fantasy genre, and what's happening now is fantasy is playing catch up as a genre, and that's why you have 10 different sci-fi games, each with their own specific niche, but for fantasy games people just seem to instinctually try and shape their ideas to fit D&D's mechanics and core assumptions, rather than come up with their own mechanics that better suit their game and the story their game is trying to tell. About the only fantasy game I can think of that dodged this was Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, and that's mainly because it has that degree of specificity in its setting and core assumptions is powerful enough to override D&D's hegemony, but also condemns it to niche status.
    Fantasy games are where science fiction games are two decades ago. Going through the motions, stuck in the same set of tropes that doesn't reflect the modern literature. It changed around the 2000s with games like Transhuman Space, Disapora, and Eclipse Phase which drew inspiration from more modern works I just think that unites D&D has a radical change, which it won't, such games will remain relatively minor.

    Amazing though. I do love my less standard fantasy games. Should probably pick up Chuubo's Marvelous Wish Granting Engine and one of these oppressed wizards games. Also start writing more varied have, I've got some ideas that I could expand on (including a post apocalypse fantasy game I've got a basic system for).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    But even Lensmen or Foundation, or Starship Troopers or Dune or Ringworld or Neuromancer, they're all great books, but none of them are really the Lord of the Rings of science fiction. For whatever reason there is no equivalent. Nothing quite so obviously dominant in its influence on everything that came after it.

    Star Wars is the equivalent for science fiction film, but it didn't affect sci-fi literature nearly as much.
    Skylark.

    I think inventing space opera counts.


    I mean, it's not like LotR was really that massive, stories were insisted by the pulps just as much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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