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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Too many Yin-Yang Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukelnikov View Post
    Yeah, once, and then its almost a monk without subclass until the next long rest.

    Mercy instead can heal 3*(1d4+Wis) per short rest, with a 16 Wis thats 16.5 / sr. It would need at least 2 short rests to make Mercy a comparable healer, and even then it would be worse overall.

    Tranquility is a better healer at low levels, while Mercy is a better healer at high levels, and can also choose to deal better damage and impose poisoned.

    By lvl 11 Tranquility heals 110 hp per long reast, Mercy 22*(1d8+Wis) = 99 + 66 = 165 per short rest, there's no comparison at this point, and it the difference keeps growing in Mercy's favor.
    Potential healing done over an entire day is not a great way to look at things. If a Mercy Monk were to actually hit those numbers then they'd spend their Ki on nothing but healing. Abandoning Hand of Harm (at least until later in the game where they can get a free use of it) and so much more from their core class: Flurry for damage, Stunning Strike, Step of the Wind, Patient Defense, rerolling saves with Diamond Soul. To actually achieve what you're talking about they become nothing but a heal bot, and even then their healing is driven hard into a niche: small heals.

    Tranquility has the flexibility of having all of their Ki available to spam Flurries and Stuns, since their healing is a dedicated pool as well as dividing that pools as they need to. They can burst heal to refill someone that needs it, or they can drop a single point to pick someone up. Mercy only has the option of MA die+Wis, which can lead to healing that doesn't strictly benefit anyone and over healing.

    This doesn't even go into self healing, if the Mercy Monk is topping themselves off then Tranquility can use Quickened Healing to do the same with all of the Ki they have to hand relative to basically all other subclasses, they literally have no additional uses for Ki.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the Mercy Monk, I'm writing a Monk guide right now and raved about it, but tying their healing to Ki expenditure made hard choices that make this pretty simple: for a Mercy Monk to be a better healer they need to sacrifice basically everything else, whilst Tranquility gets an over-inflated pool dedicated to nothing but that and can shunt it all into a bonus action whilst maintaining their at-will DPR.

    There's a reason why Paladin's formula is 5*level (and I've never seen anyone think it was ever inadequate healing) and there's a reason why we've never seen a Monk printed that didn't need Ki to some degree to use their abilities.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Too many Yin-Yang Monks

    I like the subclass line up. And think the light dark theme is ok. While I would like other themes form wotc I would be fine not to. 3rd party and homebrew are always an option
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Too many Yin-Yang Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    There's a reason why Paladin's formula is 5*level (and I've never seen anyone think it was ever inadequate healing) and there's a reason why we've never seen a Monk printed that didn't need Ki to some degree to use their abilities.

    You can break monk subclass features down into 5 categories, only one of which absolutely requires ki:

    - is free: Hour of Reaping (Long Death), Agile Parry (Kensei), Tipsy Sway (Drunken Master)

    - improves a base class feature that uses ki: Open Hand Technique, Flurry of Healing and Harm (Mercy), Wings Unfurled (Dragon)

    - let's you spend ki to do something new: Quivering Palm (Open Hand), Visage of the Astral Self, Touch of the Long Death, Hands of Harm (Mercy)

    - costs a new resource: Wholeness of Body (Open Hand) is 1/Long Rest, Healing Hands (Tranquility) is 10* Monk Level

    - costs a new resource THEN ki: Breath of the Dragon is prof bonus/Long Rest or 1 ki if you want to go past this limit.



    It should be worth noting that both the druid and the warlock have subclasses that add bonus action healing that costs no main class resource, and that tying subclass features to spending base class resources is exclusive to monks and spellcasters who still have spellslots after the fact.

    I think that spending an action healing at no ki cost (and therefore not being eligible for a bonus action attack via unarmed fighting or flurry of blows) is not problematic so long as the amount of healing the monk gets makes sense (i.e., probably not 10*level).
    Last edited by verbatim; 2021-05-02 at 12:12 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Too many Yin-Yang Monks

    Since the 4 elements monk was mentioned, they could always try to create a Wu jen monk archetype to try and replace it.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Too many Yin-Yang Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by verbatim View Post
    It should be worth noting that both the druid and the warlock have subclasses that add bonus action healing that costs no main class resource, and that tying subclass features to spending base class resources is exclusive to monks and spellcasters who still have spellslots after the fact.
    I'm aware, but what's your point when we're talking about Monk subclasses?

    -As spell casters a big boon for them is having a none spell healing ability

    -The Warlock is a short rest class, but on a completely different track than the Monk, the sheer number of Ki points basically requires some degree of Ki based expenditure somewhere in the subclass, otherwise they can spam Flurry and Stunning to an insane degree as levels advance

    Monk subclasses fall into fairly predicatable rough templates (which I outlined above), there's no other class that functions entirely on short rest resources so comparisons to other classes are few and far between (the best one possibily being a Battle Master Fighter, but even then the base chassis of the Fighter revolves around ASIs and Extra Attack, the Monk revolves around Ki).

    I think that spending an action healing at no ki cost (and therefore not being eligible for a bonus action attack via unarmed fighting or flurry of blows) is not problematic so long as the amount of healing the monk gets makes sense (i.e., probably not 10*level).
    I assume you're still talking about a pool resource here? Besides being a bit precedent breaking, there's nothing inherently wrong with a single ability having another resource, the Tranquility Monk had literally no use for Ki at any subclass feature. The issue here though quickly becomes toe stepping, we already have a Paladin with a core class feature that works like this. So whilst 10*Monk level is far too much, 5*Monk level is basically lay on hands as a subclass feature (potentially with more action economy options). If it was to be a separate pool, then something like two rolls of your Martial Arts Die that can be used prof times per day, with a high Ki cost for subsequent uses would be more in vogue with today's design I think.

    I'm really happy with the Mercy Monk as a healer though, it's a very Monkish healer and steps on virtually no one's toes: they're hyper mobile combat medics.

    IMO if a monk subclass is gonna consume ki at least some of their features should be modeled off of the Open Hand/Purple Dragon philosophy, where you get to spend your resource to use an improved version of a base class feature (Flurry of Blows/Step of the Wind/Patient Defense/Deflect Missiles/Stunning Strike/etc).
    Are you saying this about Mercy? Their later levels does enhance Flurry (free Hand of Harm use, able to swap both attacks for Hand of Healing).

    In general if a subclass has abilities that cost Ki and they don't interact with Flurry, then they normally receive at-will abilities instead:

    -Kensei level 3 abilities

    -Shadow Monk cantrip, everything else

    -Sun Soul, a decent amount of the subclass as a whole

    The only ones that really break the mold are 4e (which still gets that cantripish discipline) and Astral Self, which is all around kinda weird but I guess does this by way of the 11th level ability: by having both the arms and visage summoned you get the body for free.

    Tangent: I really like the idea of the PDK, but it was terrible implementation, at the very least it should have increased Second Wind usage to more than once per rest (and clarity about bringing up unconscious creatures in the feature).

    Edit: oh you edited your post, well the only thing I'd really address differently is this

    - costs a new resource: Wholeness of Body (Open Hand) is 1/Long Rest, Healing Hands (Tranquility) is 10* Monk Level
    I don't agree with something that is single use per day as using a new resource, I'm finding it hard to put into words why, but calling it using a new resource just doesn't feel right. The Tranquility Monk actually gains a new resource, its pool of points, the Open Hand comparison just doesn't fit. It can't be used for anything else, it can't be used in a varying way like a pool of flexible points/dice, like I would say racial casting is using a resource: the ability itself is a resource available to the player, but the ability is not using a resource if that makes sense?
    Last edited by Dork_Forge; 2021-05-02 at 12:18 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Too many Yin-Yang Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    I assume you're still talking about a pool resource here? Besides being a bit precedent breaking, there's nothing inherently wrong with a single ability having another resource, the Tranquility Monk had literally no use for Ki at any subclass feature.
    I think that the tranquility monk having zero features that interact with ki is a bridge too far, imo the best subclasses tie in ki for some but not all of their features.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    So whilst 10*Monk level is far too much, 5*Monk level is basically lay on hands as a subclass feature (potentially with more action economy options). If it was to be a separate pool, then something like two rolls of your Martial Arts Die that can be used prof times per day, with a high Ki cost for subsequent uses would be more in vogue with today's design I think.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Tangent: I really like the idea of the PDK, but it was terrible implementation, at the very least it should have increased Second Wind usage to more than once per rest (and clarity about bringing up unconscious creatures in the feature).
    I would like to see more subclass features that give you extra benefits when you spend a main class resources (monk's Patient Defense, wizard's Arcane Recovery, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Edit: oh you edited your post, well the only thing I'd really address differently is this.
    Apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    I don't agree with something that is single use per day as using a new resource, I'm finding it hard to put into words why, but calling it using a new resource just doesn't feel right. The Tranquility Monk actually gains a new resource, its pool of points, the Open Hand comparison just doesn't fit. It can't be used for anything else, it can't be used in a varying way like a pool of flexible points/dice, like I would say racial casting is using a resource: the ability itself is a resource available to the player, but the ability is not using a resource if that makes sense?
    Perhaps a more apt comparison would be Celestial Warlock getting a d6 of healing per warlock level.
    Last edited by verbatim; 2021-05-03 at 05:55 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Too many Yin-Yang Monks

    Quote Originally Posted by verbatim View Post
    I think that the tranquility monk having zero features that interact with ki is a bridge too far, imo the best subclasses tie in ki for some but not all of their features.
    Completely agree, a subclass not having uses for Ki is problematic more than anything else.

    I would like to see more subclass features that give you extra benefits when you spend a main class resources (monk's Patient Defense, wizard's Arcane Recovery, etc).
    I... don't see the connection between those two things. One is an option for your resources and the other is just more resources to use your options. I won't go on beyond that because Arcane Recovery is a feature I think poorly of for a number of reasons.

    Apologies.
    No need, nature of the beast not a transgression on your part.

    Perhaps a more apt comparison would be Celestial Warlock getting a d6 of healing per warlock level.
    Quibble, it's level+1 (to distinguish it from Balm of the Summer Court), but separately I think the Monk is just a bad basis for that because Ki is so abundant in comparison to any other class' resources. If they had a higher base amount of ki and a more limited SR regeneration then i think that would work better.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Too many Yin-Yang Monks

    Personally I don't think that it is wrong to say that monks fall into some kind of paths in opposition to each other, but rather the idea of what could be considered opposition is so broad as not not be particularly meaningful.

    For example I would love a nature themed monk. Your hermit character, living simply under the trees and a martial protector of the forest. Not a hunter like the ranger or a major spellcaster like a druid but still with the power to channel the vibrant energy of plant-life through their touch.

    Now to me this is not conceived as being part of a pair with any kind of opposite number, but were it to be introduced you could turn around and think its all about life so of course it is in opposition to Long Death. It isn't wrong, but it requires some pretty broad definitions of what opposites are and requires some subclasses to be opposites to multiple others. Or possibly the opposition monk would be like Gary Oldman in Kung-Fu Panda 2.

    I think that some opposites could be cool - I could see a seasonal cycle of monks being good, possibly capturing a bit of a fey theme like the Eladrin. A monk of the Winter Solstice would be nice, in opposition to a monk of the Summer Court etc.

    Likewise I could see the current options having opposites explicitly being made for them as being rewarding. In opposition to Mercy monks, why not a Suffering monk (can capture both Loviatar style beliefs AND Ilmater style). In opposition to the Kensei monk which focusses on weapons I would love to see a monk focussed on grappling arts and throws (actually if I am honest I would prefer to see this as alternative class features so it can be applied to any monk). If the 4 elements Monk represents the Inner Planes then I would love to see the yin-yang duality with an Outsider focussed Outer Planes monk.

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