Too many Yin-Yang Monks

[Man_Over_Game]

Anyone else tired of Light/Dark Duality monks?

I mean, we got Light Monks, Dark Monks, Death Monks, Life/Death Monks. Hell, we got Spirit Monks. Next, they'll be saying that the "Shadow" Monks are some stupid hybrid of Light and Darkness, making room for "Super Dark" Monks.

Frankly, I'm kinda tired of it.

Personally, I'm a fan of the concept of a "Beast" monk, maybe something that multiclasses well with Barbarian. Wrote up a homebrew concept long while back as something I would kinda hope to see, but it seems they used those kinds of mechanics on the Beast Barbarian, ironically.

What are some other kinds of Monks you'd like to see that don't deal with the whole Dark/Light thing going on?

[Scarytincan]

Not really, I kinda like most of em just fine. But I'll never say no to MORE monks to add more variety... XD

[HPisBS]

I don't quite agree with that characterization / prognosis, but I'll still play along.


Beast Monk could be cool. Plenty of irl martial arts claim to be inspired by animals, after all.

When WotC demonstrated that they were squeezing psionics into existing classes, I thought the Monk could make a decent biokineticist. Rune Knight already got the whole Enlargening schtick, but a Biokinetic Monk could still get some of that, some version of Alter Self and/or Stoneskin, and maybe something like a temporary +2 to all physical stats (ignoring stat maximums).

- A good ribbon might be (temporary?) Daredevil-like advantage on Insight and/or Perception due to sharper senses.

[verbatim]

I'm looking forward to "Dragon Monk". If I got to pick the next monk I would consider:

• western styled monk that's a 1/3 cleric caster (controversial)
• grapple monk (olympics/boxing themed?)
• drow/spider themed monk (poison emphasis, maybe with a way around poison immunity like Death Cleric)
• psionic monk that mainly exists to shoehorn bloodbending into 5e

The developers are kind of constrained by the existence of the 4 Elements Monk in that they can't change it too much and they can't make a new class with an identical theme (which I assume they want to because it's a very popular theme). I think it'd be kind of cool to circumnavigate the problem by having a monk type for each (popular) element that gets access to modified versions of existing spells.

I.E.: Ice Monk gets Ice Knife (damage is tied to your monk die) prof bonus # of times then 2 ki per use after that.

[Unoriginal]

Anyone else tired of Light/Dark Duality monks?

I mean, we got Light Monks, Dark Monks, Death Monks, Life/Death Monks. Hell, we got Spirit Monks. Next, they'll be saying that the "Shadow" Monks are some stupid hybrid of Light and Darkness, making room for "Super Dark" Monks.

Frankly, I'm kinda tired of it.

Personally, I'm a fan of the concept of a "Beast" monk, maybe something that multiclasses well with Barbarian. Wrote up a homebrew concept long while back as something I would kinda hope to see, but it seems they used those kinds of mechanics on the Beast Barbarian, ironically.

What are some other kinds of Monks you'd like to see that don't deal with the whole Dark/Light thing going on?

You're literally the only person I've ever seen argue that 5e Monks had a Light/Darkness duality.

I don't think it's actually a thing. There's the Shadow Monk, and there's the Sun Soul Monk. That's it, it's two subclasses with different themes, it's not duality. No one would argue the Warlock class is about duality because there's a Fiend one and a Celestial one.

Also I realize it's not likely not intentional, Man_Over_Game, but this is not what the concept of the Yin Yang is about, and it's borderline insulting to the philosophy it comes from. 5e Monks have literally nothing to do with the Yin Yang.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

I don't think this is an actual problem. The "light" monk is more of a Dragon Ball Z Monk, and the Dark monk is more of a ninja, I guess they sort of have to do with light/dark but...almost incidentally? I don't know.

And beyond that is a bit of a stretch. You could consider Mercy monks both light/dark, but their flavor is more about balancing harm with healing.

Anyway, if you really want some more monk variety: I personally would like some kind of gun-kata Monk that specializes in using firearms, but we'll likely never see that given the crazy lengths they go to stress that Firearms are super ultra optional. A brawling strength-focused subclass would be nice too, but less necessary now that we have the unarmed fighting style.

[Aylowan]

The developers are kind of constrained by the existence of the 4 Elements Monk in that they can't change it too much and they can't make a new class with an identical theme (which I assume they want to because it's a very popular theme). I think it'd be kind of cool to circumnavigate the problem by having a monk type for each (popular) element that gets access to modified versions of existing spells.

I.E.: Ice Monk gets Ice Knife (damage is tied to your monk die) prof bonus # of times then 2 ki per use after that.

You'd think they would be constrained, and perhaps that's been their position in the past. On the other hand, the UA "The Undead" Warlock patron seems to indicate the current team might be more willing to come out with a similar version of an older subclass with poor feedback. Sooo maybe?

I agree with you, though, monks for individual elements would be fun. You can do a lot thematically with just a single element -- look at Sorcerer subclasses, for example.

[Man_Over_Game]

You're literally the only person I've ever seen argue that 5e Monks had a Light/Darkness duality.

I don't think it's actually a thing. There's the Shadow Monk, and there's the Sun Soul Monk. That's it, it's two subclasses with different themes, it's not duality. No one would argue the Warlock class is about duality because there's a Fiend one and a Celestial one.

Also I realize it's not likely not intentional, Man_Over_Game, but this is not what the concept of the Yin Yang is about, and it's borderline insulting to the philosophy it comes from. 5e Monks have literally nothing to do with the Yin Yang.

I didn't mean necessarily exactly like Yin Yang, just the shear number of duality concepts. No other class has so many subclasses designed around Light and Dark concepts, and it's feeling kinda stale.

It'd be like if every Warlock patron was something like the Fathomless or The Great Old One. A Warlock should be able to be more than some Eldritch horror's servant. I'm of the opinion that Monks should have more than just being Light/Dark related or Jackie Chan.

Heck, the Mercy Monk and the Long Death Monk even have basically the same Necrotic Touch attack, except one is a capstone and the other is a level 3 feature. They even make themselves tankier through life magic.

[Protolisk]

I didn't mean necessarily exactly like Yin Yang, just the shear number of duality concepts. No other class has so many subclasses designed around Light and Dark concepts, and it's feeling kinda stale.

It'd be like if every Warlock patron was something like the Fathomless or The Great Old One. A Warlock should be able to be more than some Eldritch horror's servant. I'm of the opinion that Monks should have more than just being Light/Dark related or Jackie Chan.

Heck, the Mercy Monk and the Long Death Monk even have basically the same Necrotic Touch attack, except one is a capstone and the other is a level 3 feature. They even make themselves tankier.

Uh, Clerics? Light, Twilight? Life, Death/Grave? War, Peace? Forge, Nature?

Anyway, its not like that's all monks are anyway. We still have Open Hand, Drunken Master, and Kensei (though I guess you mean these are "Jackie Chan"), which are all outside the realm of light/dark/life/death, along with Dragon and 4 elements. And this is assuming you meant "spirit" monk as the Astral one, which is a different thing in 5e but could easily be flavored as a more spiritual thing.

[PhantomSoul]

What are some other kinds of Monks you'd like to see that don't deal with the whole Dark/Light thing going on?

1. Revamp the elemental monk altogether. (Which, for WOTC, means just making a new one and ignoring people noticing.) Basically, my partial draft is to give monks the choice to specialise or not in elements (plus gives "stances" for elements, to help with ki hungriness).
2. A druid-on-monk counterpart to the eldritch knight's wizard-on-fighter. A nature monk is such a natural concept (haha).
3. A cleric-on-monk counterpart to #2's druid-on-monk. Again, to get a bit of that more religious-monastic feel as an option you can lean into solo, especially given how typically it seems to be assumed that the monk will be a spell-like/martial/spell-absent cleric thematically.
4. #2 (and maybe #3) in terms of fluff/feel, but with non-spellcasting features as the focus.
5. A monk subclass that doesn't just want to spend all their ki on stunning strike.

[Rukelnikov]

• western styled monk that's a 1/3 cleric caster (controversial)

I'm curious, why would that be controversial?

[Tvtyrant]

We should go all in on Ying-Yang Monks and base them off the Veritas manwha! Electric Tiger Monk who disrupts casting, Fire Dragon Monk who does wall effects, etc.

[Protolisk]

I'm curious, why would that be controversial?

To me, it'd be that they have one system full of resources ( ki), and then they'd get an entire spellcasting system with even more resources (spell slots).

On one hand, it means that you have more ki to spend on things like step of the wind, since your subclass features are spell slot based and thus don't interfere.

On the other, its way more likely that your ki is all going towards stunning strike since there's less interesting things to spend em on.

The actual spells themselves are immaterial to me, its moreso the direct focus on ki itself.

(Of course ki might amplify the spells slots, but then it just becomes the management of so many resources overall.)

[Man_Over_Game]

Uh, Clerics? Light, Twilight? Life, Death/Grave? War, Peace? Forge, Nature?

I guess those concepts seem more acceptable to me with Clerics since there is inherently a religious/philosophical requirement for Clerics. 5e Monks aren't related to the religious type of Monk, so it seems a bit out-of-place and, at this point, overdone.

I could really get behind Monk styles that are based on specific animals or forces of nature. It'd give more identity to the Monk class in a way that's difficult for other classes to duplicate.

Thinking about it, it'd be pretty dang cool if they had a Warlock-style progression, where you pick both an Element and a Beast at different levels, to create new "styles" of martial arts and ways to "Monk". Eh, wishful thinking.

[False God]

I'd like it if each of the 4 elements monks got their own subclass with more refined abilities that really gave their element their feel, but then I am a huge Avatar nerd. (if they already did this officially, ie: published, not just UA, please point me to it).

And we've got the default "pure kung fu" monk, which I think is fine.

Conceptually what you want is a raging brawler, which is fine, might be able to make it work in a Dragonball-Z way, ie you "rage" to go super-sayian or whatever. But it shouldn't be just an excuse to get Monk bennies to MC into barbarian, because IMO, I feel like Monk and Barbarian are on kinda opposite ends of the spectrum in a lot of ways.

[Protolisk]

Conceptually what you want is a raging brawler, which is fine, might be able to make it work in a Dragonball-Z way, ie you "rage" to go super-sayian or whatever. But it shouldn't be just an excuse to get Monk bennies to MC into barbarian, because IMO, I feel like Monk and Barbarian are on kinda opposite ends of the spectrum in a lot of ways.

Well, looking at the Astral Monk, there is some way to make this a more ingrained self buffing form of "rage". Spend X ki to get more bestial alterations.

There'd be a bit of overlap with Barbarian overall, conceptually, with being more physical, and having Totem and Beast subclasses to cover that niche. Then again, nothing stopped Sorcerers and Warlocks from sharing the "celestial/divine" niche and "shadowy" niches at the same time. In the same book.

[HPisBS]

To me, it'd be that they have one system full of resources ( ki), and then they'd get an entire spellcasting system with even more resources (spell slots).

On one hand, it means that you have more ki to spend on things like step of the wind, since your subclass features are spell slot based and thus don't interfere.

On the other, its way more likely that your ki is all going towards stunning strike since there's less interesting things to spend em on.

The actual spells themselves are immaterial to me, its moreso the direct focus on ki itself.

(Of course ki might amplify the spells slots, but then it just becomes the management of so many resources overall.)

The problem with the EleMonk wasn't that it used ki for spells, but that using ki for spells was all that it did. My 4E fix addressed that by kinda doing this:

Thinking about it, it'd be pretty dang cool if they had a Warlock-style progression, where you pick both an Element and a Beast at different levels, to create new "styles" of martial arts and ways to "Monk". Eh, wishful thinking.

- Kinda.

Edit: Really, it's more like this:

I'd like it if each of the 4 elements monks got their own subclass with more refined abilities that really gave their element their feel, but then I am a huge Avatar nerd. (if they already did this officially, ie: published, not just UA, please point me to it).

Each elemental discipline would also count towards mastery of that particular element, giving minor perks like a better Dash and jump with Air, or a Cause Fear type effect with Fire. You could get some of everything by diversifying the elements of your disciplines, or specialize in just one to ultimately get an Investiture spell.

The important part is that they're like Shadow Step in that the non-Investiture features don't cost ki, but aren't super powerful. Lacking those kinds of actual features is what brought 4E down, imo.


Edit edit:
False God, are you a SG-1 fan, by any chance?

[Unoriginal]

I didn't mean necessarily exactly like Yin Yang, just the shear number of duality concepts.

0 is a sheer number, yes.

No other class has so many subclasses designed around Light and Dark concepts, and it's feeling kinda stale.

There is one subclass designed around shadow stuff. There's plenty of other classes with that many. And there is one kind-of-light-related subclass which is in fact mostly about shooting people with energy beams.

I'm of the opinion that Monks should have more than just being Light/Dark related

They are not.

or Jackie Chan.

I assume you that by this you mean "martial artist with a gimmick".


If your point is "All Monks feel the same", I obviously can't tell you how to feel. I can even agree that the Monk's design has plenty of rooms for different ideas the writers haven't touched so far.

But doubling down about blatantly false information like "Monks have a Light/Dark duality" is frankly an insult to everyone's ability to read.

There's no Yin Yang thing about the Monk, there is no Light/Dark duality. Yes several Monk subclasses have necrotic-damage attacks and ways to heal, but it's because the Monk is based around the concept of manipulating life energy to achieve fantastical stuff.

[Devils_Advocate]

I guess those concepts seem more acceptable to me with Clerics since there is inherently a religious/philosophical requirement for Clerics. 5e Monks aren't related to the religious type of Monk, so it seems a bit out-of-place and, at this point, overdone.

Um... You're wrong. The default fluff of both Clerics and Monks is religious/philosophical/spiritual. In Monks' case it talks about how Monks live in cloisters and seek spiritual enlightenment and whatnot. That's why they can use ki to do magic. They're not just unarmored martial artists.

[Unoriginal]

Um... You're wrong. The default fluff of both Clerics and Monks is religious/philosophical/spiritual. In Monks' case it talks about how Monks live in cloisters and seek spiritual enlightenment and whatnot. That's why they can use ki to do magic. They're not just unarmored martial artists.

Yeah, and the powers they get through leveling are how they progress toward enlightenment.

[verbatim]

To me, it'd be that they have one system full of resources ( ki), and then they'd get an entire spellcasting system with even more resources (spell slots).

On one hand, it means that you have more ki to spend on things like step of the wind, since your subclass features are spell slot based and thus don't interfere.

It should probably be worth noting that most full spellcasters have a second resource that they spend on subclass features (Metamagic/Channel Divinity/Wildshape, etc), and that none of the the existing 1/3 caster subclasses have to spend a main class resource on spellcasting.

One of the reasons I think monks come with the notion that they don't have enough resources compared to other classes is that they're the only class with one set of resources available to the base class that also expends that set of resources as the sole means of accessing some of their subclass features.

[Protolisk]

It should probably be worth noting that most full spellcasters have a second resource that they spend on subclass features (Metamagic/Channel Divinity/Wildshape, etc), and that none of the the existing 1/3 caster subclasses have to spend a main class resource on spellcasting.

One of the reasons I think monks come with the notion that they don't have enough resources compared to other classes is that they're the only class with one set of resources available to the base class that also expends that set of resources as the sole means of accessing some of their subclass features.

The big difference being however is that, say, for Fighters, they only have a few resources used in very limited ways, i.e. one way per resource: Second Wind, Action Surge, and Indomitable. They are pretty neat and tidy as to what they are capable of, and for most its not so much keeping track of exact costs as it is "did I use this yet or not". This is about the same as most other features like Channel Divinites or Wild Shapes. Rogues, the only other 1/3 caster, doesn't really have any resources to talk of.

Ki is a lot more like Sorcery Points, I will admit, but Sorc points specifically need spells to work already, either by affecting how spell work s or fueling more spells (by changing them into spell slots). Ki are recharged much faster, and using them to alter spells is something I think would be interesting, but it could be seen as stepping on the toes of sorcerers because that's mostly the Sorcerer's schtick. It would need to be very specifically balanced with that in mind.

Now, I didn't say it was a bad idea, but I can see a source of controversy. I've seen some attempts at homebrewing 4 elements, and have considered trying it myself, and that is one idea I have been toying with. I am not sure what should be the right way to approach it.

[verbatim]

I am not sure what should be the right way to approach it.

Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster limit what schools of magic you can pick your wizard spells from. That would be a good way to ensure the monk can't grab Guiding Bolt + Healing Word + Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians back to back to back.

[stoutstien]

I don't necessarily agree on the light/dark angle but I do think monks are a tad narrow in thematic scope for 5e.

[KorvinStarmast]

You're literally the only person I've ever seen argue that 5e Monks had a Light/Darkness duality.

Aye, my initial take as well.

No one would argue the Warlock class is about duality because there's a Fiend one and a Celestial one.

Or the Sorcerer's Divine Soul and the Shadow Magic ...

5e Monks have literally nothing to do with the Yin Yang.

Also my take; once one reads a bit about that philosophical approach, one learns that the oversimplification of it does it a disservice¹.

No other class has so many subclasses designed around Light and Dark concepts, and it's feeling kinda stale.

Clerics. Life/Death. LIght/Twilight. Paladins. (Redemption/Conquest, Devotion/Oathbreaker).

Heck, the Mercy Monk and the Long Death Monk even have basically the same Necrotic Touch attack, except one is a capstone and the other is a level 3 feature. They even make themselves tankier through life magic.

I think that was a case of "huh, Long Death not so popular, let's tweak it a bit and call it something else ..."

1. Revamp the elemental monk altogether.

Yes.

5. A monk subclass that doesn't just want to spend all their ki on stunning strike.

Heretic!

There is one subclass designed around shadow stuff. There's plenty of other classes with that many. And there is one kind-of-light-related subclass which is in fact mostly about shooting people with energy beams.

And then closing to stun them.

Yeah, and the powers they get through leveling are how they progress toward enlightenment.

Nothing says Enlightenment to me like Quivering Palm. (I am a sucker for the Sun Soul monk, however, because I have a life long aversion to the undead. All of those levels lost to wights and wraiths in OD&D and AD&D ... scarred, I am, scarred).

I do think monks are a tad narrow in thematic scope for 5e.

If even modes magical items are allowed, like gaunts of ogre strength and a Ring of Jumping, you can have a Boing Boing monk who jumps all over the place.

¹ FWIW, the distant relationship to a D&D monk to the overall philosophical construct Unoriginal mention is the clumsy borrowing of Ki (a variation on qi - the material energy, which this universe has created itself out of) but that's a bit of a reach. So too is the one-corn-tortilla-thick philosophical constructs that make up alignment or the DMG's coverage of political systems and style. No depth; the name of a thing and not the thing itself. (To do a reverse Hagel on it ...)

[Quietus]

I don't think this is an actual problem. The "light" monk is more of a Dragon Ball Z Monk, and the Dark monk is more of a ninja, I guess they sort of have to do with light/dark but...almost incidentally? I don't know.

And beyond that is a bit of a stretch. You could consider Mercy monks both light/dark, but their flavor is more about balancing harm with healing.

Anyway, if you really want some more monk variety: I personally would like some kind of gun-kata Monk that specializes in using firearms, but we'll likely never see that given the crazy lengths they go to stress that Firearms are super ultra optional. A brawling strength-focused subclass would be nice too, but less necessary now that we have the unarmed fighting style.

You can make a pretty solid gun kata monk out of Kensei, with the Tasha's bumps; use your ranged weapon of choice (longbow, for me), make your two attacks, and spend a point of ki either to bump your attack rolls so that something hits, or if both your attacks hit, spend that ki to do an extra die of damage. This opens up a bonus action attack with that same weapon. It's fully online by level 6, and has lots of room for personalization after that.

[Man_Over_Game]

General consensus seems to be: "MOG, you're an idiot and this opinion is stupid".

Understood, thanks for the clarification.

No sarcasm, really, it helps to know how far off my thoughts are from the public opinion, so I don't push those biases onto my players.

[quinron]

General consensus seems to be: "MOG, you're an idiot and this opinion is stupid".

Understood, thanks for the clarification.

No sarcasm, really, it helps to know how far off my thoughts are from the public opinion, so I don't push those biases onto my players.

I mean, it's definitely there with the two SCAG monks; that may have just colored your opinions of the ones that came out afterward.

[RogueJK]

Or the Sorcerer's Divine Soul and the Shadow Magic ...

Keep in mind, Divine Soul doesn't necessarily automatically mean "Good/Light". Your divine bloodline can be tied back to a neutral or evil deity, or you could have been conceived during a ritual of an apocalyptic cult, or whatever.

The protagonist from the Baldur's Gate series is a prime example of what could have been a Divine Soul Sorcerer whose spark is from the God of Murder.

[Christian]

Everyone is overlooking the Johnnie Walker Dark monks.