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  1. - Top - End - #1441
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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Roselily2006 View Post
    Oh boy, we're debating this again!
    Maybe we can get to 50 pages with the inevitable repeating of the same points and counterarguments!
    For real, this would be infinitely less obnoxious if there were actually new points.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    For real, this would be infinitely less obnoxious if there were actually new points.
    Welcome to forums.giantitp where the obnoxiousness never ends and the points don't matter!
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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Roselily2006 View Post
    Oh boy, we're debating this again!
    Maybe we can get to 50 pages with the inevitable repeating of the same points and counterarguments!
    Okay, let me try, uhhhhhh....


    Would Redcloak be willing to get stabbed so he can become a demigod and improve the size of TDO's pantheon?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Welcome to forums.giantitp where the obnoxiousness never ends and the points don't matter!
    Internet points are obviously the only thing that matters

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Okay, let me try, uhhhhhh....


    Would Redcloak be willing to get stabbed so he can become a demigod and improve the size of TDO's pantheon?
    I hope that TDO sponsors Banjo to be part of the awesome cool pantheon.

    Banjos are so metal.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-05-22 at 07:38 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Okay, let me try, uhhhhhh....

    Would Redcloak be willing to get stabbed so he can become a demigod and improve the size of TDO's pantheon?
    Treating this seriously, I think it would depend on several factors:

    1. Would the Plan continue? Even better: would it forward the Plan?
    2. Would that actually be the result?
    3. Is it a thing that the Dark One would want?

    If Redcloak was convinced of these things, I think he'd be okay with it. Getting stabbed would be unpleasant, no question there, but the discomfort would be brief. And there are (probably) ways to minimize the discomfort, depending on the needs of the procedure. Does it require that he be conscious? I've had vague thoughts about writing a short story in which people spend an eternal afterlife in the same mental condition they were in at the moment of death, dementia and all. None of this "your body and mind are restored to their optimal levels, or to what you imagine as their proper states" stuff.
    Last edited by bunsen_h; 2021-06-08 at 11:16 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Getting stabbed would be unpleasant, no question there, but the discomfort would be brief.
    „Realistically” speaking, whoever would carry it out would have to stab him quite a number of times with all those d8s and whatnot.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    „Realistically” speaking, whoever would carry it out would have to stab him quite a number of times with all those d8s and whatnot.
    If the "victim" isn't fighting back, but cooperating, are there "one-shot kill" rules? Apart from vorpal blades and such, of course.

    EDIT: I mean, if I were DMing a session with a situation like that, I'd allow a "straight to the heart and you're gone" move. Since there is precedent for one-shot kills, from vorpal blades.
    Last edited by bunsen_h; 2021-06-08 at 12:02 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    If the "victim" isn't fighting back, but cooperating, are there "one-shot kill" rules? Apart from vorpal blades and such, of course.
    There's the Coup de Grace action, but regardless... if Durkon can kill-steal like a boss, the specific rules are significantly less important than what makes sense for the scene.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    There's the Coup de Grace action, but regardless... if Durkon can kill-steal like a boss, the specific rules are significantly less important than what makes sense for the scene.
    IIRC, you can voluntarily fail a save, so someone cooperating with a Coup de Grace can automatically be killed.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    IIRC, you can voluntarily fail a save, so someone cooperating with a Coup de Grace can automatically be killed.
    Nice to see it's supported by the rules... ish, I don't think the defender can retroactively turn an attack into a Coup de Grace by not defending. But either way, my point is that a cooperating target has been shown being killed instantly on screen, so what exactly the rules say is less important than what The Giant has explicitly established to be the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    We should try to make that a thing; I think it might help civility. Hey, GitP, let's try to make this a thing: when you're arguing optimization strategies, RAW-logic, and similar such things that you'd never actually use in a game, tag your post [THEORETICAL] and/or use green text

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by georgie_leech View Post
    Nice to see it's supported by the rules... ish, I don't think the defender can retroactively turn an attack into a Coup de Grace by not defending. But either way, my point is that a cooperating target has been shown being killed instantly on screen, so what exactly the rules say is less important than what The Giant has explicitly established to be the case.
    A cooperating target that can't be coup-de-grace-d, even; since vampires are immune to critical hits.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    A cooperating target that can't be coup-de-grace-d, even; since vampires are immune to critical hits.
    Greg doesn't count.
    (Granted, it would be nice to know what are the mechanics for that, but few things can be perfect.)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Greg doesn't count.

    (Granted, it would be nice to know what are the mechanics for that, but few things can be perfect.)
    Those rules are in the "Book of Missing Rules" right next to the rules for how you lose body-parts so that you need the Regenerate Spell or a Ring of Regeneration to repair it.

    Also included is a clear explanation of why Spell-Like wish can't instantly create a ring of three wishes, or for that matter a resetting trap of Wish.

    It's a very important book.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Those rules are in the "Book of Missing Rules" right next to the rules for how you lose body-parts so that you need the Regenerate Spell or a Ring of Regeneration to repair it.
    To be fair, Regenerate is an extremely useful spell if one happens to be a hydra or a kraken.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Treating this seriously, I think it would depend on several factors:

    1. Would the Plan continue? Even better: would it forward the Plan?
    2. Would that actually be the result?
    3. Is it a thing that the Dark One would want?

    If Redcloak was convinced of these things, I think he'd be okay with it. Getting stabbed would be unpleasant, no question there, but the discomfort would be brief. And there are (probably) ways to minimize the discomfort, depending on the needs of the procedure. Does it require that he be conscious? I've had vague thoughts about writing a short story in which people spend an eternal afterlife in the same mental condition they were in at the moment of death, dementia and all. None of this "your body and mind are restored to their optimal levels, or to what you imagine as their proper states" stuff.
    It would be a weird world that has birth control potions and no pain-relief potions... especially since they have something as incredibly selective as specific-amnesia potion.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    It would be a weird world that has birth control potions and no pain-relief potions... especially since they have something as incredibly selective as specific-amnesia potion.
    Potions of pain relief might be rather obscure, unless they're a lot cheaper than potions of healing. The equivalent of aspirin would be cheap and easy, brewed from something like willow bark. Ditto the equivalent of raw poppy juice being brewed into morphine. But a potion of pain relief that takes away pain without leaving the patient stoned (or otherwise messed up, cognitively) would probably be a higher-order problem. There aren't a lot of situations in which curing someone's medical problems isn't greatly preferred to merely handling the pain associated with them. I suppose that they'd include cases which can't be fixed by potions of healing, such as pain caused by the absence of things removed by amputation.

    I would pay a lot of money for Regenerations for me and my wife.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Potions of pain relief might be rather obscure, unless they're a lot cheaper than potions of healing. The equivalent of aspirin would be cheap and easy, brewed from something like willow bark. Ditto the equivalent of raw poppy juice being brewed into morphine. But a potion of pain relief that takes away pain without leaving the patient stoned (or otherwise messed up, cognitively) would probably be a higher-order problem. There aren't a lot of situations in which curing someone's medical problems isn't greatly preferred to merely handling the pain associated with them. I suppose that they'd include cases which can't be fixed by potions of healing, such as pain caused by the absence of things removed by amputation.

    I would pay a lot of money for Regenerations for me and my wife.
    ...May I ask why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    ...May I ask why?
    Spoiler: Medical stuff, because some people are squicky about such things
    Show
    I have spinal cord damage, caused by a rare spontaneous condition (syringomyelia) and by the surgery that "fixed" it by installing a shunt inside my spinal cord. A lot of nerves were damaged or severed, which causes a lot of pain directly. They do regrow, slowly, but they don't always reconnect properly, which leads to other interesting effects. Occasionally I experience severe localized spasms which feel like massive jolts of electricity near my right kneecap: three or four jabs, wait a minute or two, repeat for anywhere from a quarter hour to an hour. This is presumably due to some nerve path reconnecting, or misconnecting. I'm on a lot of medication for neuropathic pain, and it messes me up.

    Nothing less than magic would regrow the nerves that were severed and/or destroyed outright, and reconnect them where they ought to be.

    On top of her pre-existing problems, my wife had surgery in 2013 which resulted in an error, and poor care after that -- I'll spare you the details -- left her nearly dead and with severe internal injuries.
    Spoiler: Extra grossness, but believe me, I could make it far grosser
    Show
    Among the consequences of that is an ostomy that was built (? created? installed?) under emergency conditions and doesn't work very well. There are frequent leaks, and I cannot begin to describe how tired I am of dealing with that.
    She needs a special diet, and now she's diabetic, presumably a result of the pancreatic damage. Her battered intestinal system doesn't absorb medications or nutrients very well, or at a consistent level, so trying to get her properly and safely medicated is a constant struggle.


    My own problem is, as the diagnosing neurologist described it, a "one-in-a-million s*** happens" thing. I try to accept that, and deal with the consequences. My wife's damage is a direct result of a number of doctors and nurses screwing up, as well as systemic problems in the hospital which resulted in information not being given to people who should have had it. There's a big lawsuit going on, but that's dragging on and on... which itself takes a toll on us.

    Is there some way of calculating the real-world equivalent price of a Regeneration?
    Last edited by bunsen_h; 2021-06-13 at 12:12 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Spoiler: Medical stuff, because some people are squicky about such things
    Show
    I have spinal cord damage, caused by a rare spontaneous condition (syringomyelia) and by the surgery that "fixed" it by installing a shunt inside my spinal cord. A lot of nerves were damaged or severed, which causes a lot of pain directly. They do regrow, slowly, but they don't always reconnect properly, which leads to other interesting effects. Occasionally I experience severe localized spasms which feel like massive jolts of electricity near my right kneecap: three or four jabs, wait a minute or two, repeat for anywhere from a quarter hour to an hour. This is presumably due to some nerve path reconnecting, or misconnecting. I'm on a lot of medication for neuropathic pain, and it messes me up.

    Nothing less than magic would regrow the nerves that were severed and/or destroyed outright, and reconnect them where they ought to be.

    On top of her pre-existing problems, my wife had surgery in 2013 which resulted in an error, and poor care after that -- I'll spare you the details -- left her nearly dead and with severe internal injuries.
    Spoiler: Extra grossness, but believe me, I could make it far grosser
    Show
    Among the consequences of that is an ostomy that was built (? created? installed?) under emergency conditions and doesn't work very well. There are frequent leaks, and I cannot begin to describe how tired I am of dealing with that.
    She needs a special diet, and now she's diabetic, presumably a result of the pancreatic damage. Her battered intestinal system doesn't absorb medications or nutrients very well, or at a consistent level, so trying to get her properly and safely medicated is a constant struggle.


    My own problem is, as the diagnosing neurologist described it, a "one-in-a-million s*** happens" thing. I try to accept that, and deal with the consequences. My wife's damage is a direct result of a number of doctors and nurses screwing up, as well as systemic problems in the hospital which resulted in information not being given to people who should have had it. There's a big lawsuit going on, but that's dragging on and on... which itself takes a toll on us.

    Is there some way of calculating the real-world equivalent price of a Regeneration?
    Yeesh. What happened to you sucks, but your wife? Seriously, sue the pants off that hospital.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Yeesh. What happened to you sucks, but your wife? Seriously, sue the pants off that hospital.
    Unfortunately, the legal aspects of the Canadian medical system give us a lot less leverage than if we were in some other countries. (Trying to stay away from politics here...) One can't sue over a bad outcome, such as the surgical error itself; occasional errors are inevitable. One can sue over negligence, for care that falls significantly short of "professional standards", and there's really no question that that's what happened. (Over the first four days after her surgery, with abdominal sepsis settling in, the nurses failed to give her the prescribed antibiotics -- twice. For example. The doctor who found her literally unresponsive on the fourth day reacted by requesting that Psychiatry come to take a look at her. Non-urgently.) But payments for "damages" are also far lower than in some other countries. Her needs should be covered; there will be compensation for her being unable to work (and as a medical specialist herself, her income used to be decent -- though, again, far lower in Canada than it would be in some other countries). There will be some compensation for suffering. But probably not as much as she/we "deserve".

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Is there some way of calculating the real-world equivalent price of a Regeneration?
    So, the price of a real-world equivalent of the regenerate spell? Given the setting we're talking about, let me check my D20 Modern stuff....

    Now, despite the significant parallels in healing magic between the systems, D20 Modern spells only go up to 5th level (spellcasting being limited to 10-level prestige advanced classes in campaigns that allow them); so we're looking at pricing a magic item that duplicates the spell effect (as is recommended for porting spell effects that aren't readily available).

    A single-use wondrous item with a caster level of 13 (the minimum for regenerate) would have a purchase DC of 38, which according to the table in the DM section is roughly equivalent to $350,000 . That is, however, going to be from the first printing in 2002; a few quick glances suggest a 50%-ish increase to be a price in 2021 dollars, so $525,000 . Ish.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Considering what I know of the American medical system, isn’t that actually hilariously cheap?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    So, the price of a real-world equivalent of the regenerate spell? Given the setting we're talking about, let me check my D20 Modern stuff....

    Now, despite the significant parallels in healing magic between the systems, D20 Modern spells only go up to 5th level (spellcasting being limited to 10-level prestige advanced classes in campaigns that allow them); so we're looking at pricing a magic item that duplicates the spell effect (as is recommended for porting spell effects that aren't readily available).

    A single-use wondrous item with a caster level of 13 (the minimum for regenerate) would have a purchase DC of 38, which according to the table in the DM section is roughly equivalent to $350,000 . That is, however, going to be from the first printing in 2002; a few quick glances suggest a 50%-ish increase to be a price in 2021 dollars, so $525,000 . Ish.
    Would one ordinarily pay the same amount for a magic item that "stores" a spell as for having the spell cast directly? I'd have thought that the former would be rather more expensive.

    Regardless, assuming that that's in US$ and converting to Canadian dollars, that's probably about the value of my house. Considering quality-of-life stuff... yeah, at the least I'd consider it seriously. It would give me a reasonable chance of earning the value back again, over a projected working life in my area of work. Hell, Regeneration also fixes exhaustion and fatigue, as a bonus. It's been a very long time since I've been free of them. That, in itself, would be worth a pretty penny to me.

    I thought to look in my old DMG, which quotes a base figure of 15,000 GP to get Regenerate cast by an NPC. It goes on to describe how spell costs can be decreased for characters that are low-level, religiously faithful, etc., or "upped a bit for those who are not regular attendees of services". It's a bit hard to predict just where I'd be sitting on that score, if I were in a world which made divine power manifest. Trying to determine the real-world equivalent value of that isn't obvious, even if I look at the price tables of items and services, because the costs are based on very different economies. 1 GP can buy any of: a small wooden shield; a dozen normal arrows; a hammer (weapon); boots (high soft or low hard); a goat or piglet; a large belt pouch; a rich meal; prayer beads. $100, maybe?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Considering what I know of the American medical system, isn’t that actually hilariously cheap?
    I'm reasonably certain health insurance doesn't cover magic items, so I doubt there's a direct interaction there.

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Would one ordinarily pay the same amount for a magic item that "stores" a spell as for having the spell cast directly? I'd have thought that the former would be rather more expensive.
    As I said, spells cap out at 5th level in D20 Modern; the regenerate we're talking about is 7th level and thus wouldn't be available as a spell at all, hence the less strict "single-use item with the effect" approach. (There's also no standard pricing for having someone cast a spell for you, presumably from the general assumption that D20 Modern settings with fantasy elements still don't have publicly known fantasy elements, and certainly not enough spellcasters to warrant a spellcaster-for-hire industry).


    If that's too involved for the question you were asking....Being a 7th-level spell means it has a minimum caster level of 13, so the standard cost of someone casting it for you, assuming you had access to someone capable of casting it, is 910gp. The rough guideline is that one gold piece is around $20, so it'd cost $18,200 (or $27,300 if inflation is a factor we care about). Probably too rough in this particular situation; normally the dollar figure is immediately converted to a much less granular purchase DC, effectively obviating a wide swath of inexactness.


    The difference between the scenarios, of course, is economics. Not (just) the factor of nineteen; but how the lower cost represents someone who can use the ability multiple times every day without special consumables, while the higher cost represents a single use of an ability so exotic that even the rumored masters of magic can't create it directly from their own personal power.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    If that's too involved for the question you were asking....Being a 7th-level spell means it has a minimum caster level of 13, so the standard cost of someone casting it for you, assuming you had access to someone capable of casting it, is 910gp. The rough guideline is that one gold piece is around $20, so it'd cost $18,200 (or $27,300 if inflation is a factor we care about). Probably too rough in this particular situation; normally the dollar figure is immediately converted to a much less granular purchase DC, effectively obviating a wide swath of inexactness.

    The difference between the scenarios, of course, is economics. Not (just) the factor of nineteen; but how the lower cost represents someone who can use the ability multiple times every day without special consumables, while the higher cost represents a single use of an ability so exotic that even the rumored masters of magic can't create it directly from their own personal power.
    Spell price scaling linearly with caster level seems very odd to me. It suggests that the availability of the casters is more or less inversely linear, and I'd expect it to scale downwards more rapidly, especially at the upper end. Consider the proportions of the general population who have bachelor's degrees vs. those who have master's or doctoral-level degrees.

    EDIT: Can$40,000 for a regeneration? Where do I sign?
    Last edited by bunsen_h; 2021-06-14 at 11:49 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Spell price scaling linearly with caster level seems very odd to me. It suggests that the availability of the casters is more or less inversely linear, and I'd expect it to scale downwards more rapidly, especially at the upper end. Consider the proportions of the general population who have bachelor's degrees vs. those who have master's or doctoral-level degrees.
    The price is 10gp*spellLevel*casterLevel, and the casterLevel minimum scales with spellLevel, so price scales exponentially in most cases; the table lists each spell level individually since it appeared in the Player's Handbook originally and players are far more likely to know what spell they want cast before they consider finding someone to cast it for them.

    As for availability....The settlement size limitation mentioned for spellcasting services corresponds to the section for quickly statting a settlement in the DMG; there's a die roll for each class, and a modifier for settlement size (ranging from -3 for a thorp to +12 for a metropolis) representing a highest-level person of that class available in that settlement; then there's two people with half that level, four with half that level, etc. Small cities and larger repeat this some number of times for each class, and there's a final proportioning for 1st level NPC classes to fill out the settlement's population count.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2021-06-14 at 12:07 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    So the trick is to find an intern and not a doctor that's been practicing for 20 years.

    Also,in barely related news, I found out recently that in England they don't call surgeon's "doctors", apparently.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So the trick is to find an intern and not a doctor that's been practicing for 20 years.
    Hiring someone highly-talented is often more cost-effective than hiring someone highly-trained, yes. It's a lot easier to imbue training than to discover talent, though; and the whole "license" and "guild" concepts do a lot for finding trained people.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    So, the price of a real-world equivalent of the regenerate spell? Given the setting we're talking about, let me check my D20 Modern stuff....
    Alternate approach regenerate costs 910 GP in D&D land. 1GP is something close to $100 in terms of various goods, services, and pay rates (I can argue for higher or lower, because nothing is all that consistent, but that's probably the ballpark). So, on that basis, were it available, $91,000 would be appropriate.

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