OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[vonBoomslang]

Yikes, here comes surly and unpleasant Durkon with his patented turn the issue around on Roy. Again. Nice callback (?) to Origin of PCs.

[Lord Torath]

"Pract'cally Divine."

Thanks, Rich!

Edit:
This is a bit of a late notice, but if by some chance you read this again Rich, Durkon says both 'aboot' and 'about' in his third thought balloon in panel 6.

[Dragonus45]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

[vonBoomslang]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

You're right, it's not like they're, wait, what was it called? Oh yeah, Lawful Good.

[Pablo360]

You have to admit, Roy, he's got you pegged.

It feels like it's been a while since we've explored this particular facet Durkon and Roy's dynamic, showing that Roy doesn't have a monopoly on sardonic reproach. Durkon gets it from his mother, I think, though she delivers hers with a wry grin instead of not-mad-just-disappointed stoicism. I'm not sure which cuts deeper.

[Ionathus]

Beautifully said, Durkon.

"Getting the Diagnosis right doesn't mean you got the Treatment right" is such a great way to sum up the situation.

The way he's matured and learned to assert himself is so cool to see. And the way he puts things is so straightforward yet eloquent, I wouldn't be surprised if he finds his calling in a leadership role after this story.

I'm really loving this arc, Giant. Keep up the amazing work!

[RMS Oceanic]

To err is divine, I guess.

[understatement]

Roy is hilarious here. And I love these callbacks!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Sometimes, people won't pay any attention to a problem until the people dying because of it threaten to unleash a god-destroying abomination into the heavens. Here's hoping the Order finds a way to follow through on noticing the problem...

You're right, it's not like they're, wait, what was it called? Oh yeah, Lawful Good.

You shouldn't have to be LG to feel bad about killing people without stopping to wonder why they're doing what they're doing.
Roy and Durkon aren't just realizing they never asked—they realized they never even thought about asking.

[Schroeswald]

A lovely comic, humor, plot, thematic relevance, it has it all, and now I’m sure this discussion thread isn’t going to get ugly like the last one.

[link3710]

Yeaaaah, the only goblins they ever spoke to were grumpy teenagers. Which probably want the best source of information.

[Worldsong]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

I don't think the idea is that when you keep fighting the same villain over and over again you need to question their motives and try to work out a peaceful solution every single time.

But trying it at least once would be recommended if you're Good-aligned.

[Yarrun]

I feel like, at this point, the Giant could probably make a decent buck off of 'Redcloak was right' t-shirts, along the lines of the Magneto/Cyclops was right meme in the Marvel Universe

[Kaed]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

Sure. It's much easier to claim self defense and kill the person attacking you than to discover why they are attacking you and begin work to try and heal the complex psychological, political, and/or socioeconomic circumstances that lead them to make the decision that they had to attack you.

But that doesn't make it more right to kill them and walk away feeling self justified in your defensive strategy, nor does it solve anything about the situation other than your immediate personal safety and the potential safety of others that might have been attacked by that specific person.

[Gift Jeraff]

And now Serini will not have overheard this and perhaps have a change of heart because it was all in their heads...

[Yakk]

Durkon's point is that they treated Goblins as low-threat XP sources. When massed, they treated them as high-threat XP sources.

In fact, I think Durkon's attempt was the first time they tried to negotiate with Red Cloak, at least seriously.

Imagine a flip. Replace every single Goblin and Hobgoblin with a Human. They are a marginalized people who where hunted and killed, who have started organizing. Some of them are working with a lich as part of this fight against the generations of genocide against their people; the lich treats them like ****, but gives them a slim chance against the super weapons of the enemy (like, literal god-tier magic, such as the sapphire guard's resurrection stuff). Only by being united, brave and strong can they stand up against being eradicated from the planet.

Their enemies would rather the world be destroyed than they win and take their place secure from genocide, quite literally, as they destroy the cages that keep the world intact rather than let them harness the power. So they strive, sacrifice and fight for the lives of their children and kin.

[Ruck]

Hee hee, some good levity here while still approaching the main subject with appropriate seriousness.

I do think it's interesting, having been reading some old comics lately, how little Roy probably even considered Redcloak's importance in the whole scheme or what his plan really is (until, presumably, whatever Durkon told him that Thor told him).

[hamishspence]

It's a good conversation. Some of the events in Origin of PCs might spring to mind here - Roy was somewhat better about "seeing the adversary's point of view" there.

[Worldsong]

You shouldn't have to be LG to feel bad about killing people without stopping to wonder why they're doing what they're doing.
Roy and Durkon aren't just realizing they never asked—they realized they never even thought about asking.

You don't need to be Lawful Good, just Good.

And I will playfully slap the first person to argue that Chaotic Good is an excuse to be a murderhobo.

[hroþila]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

I don't think that's what they're really saying, if you get to the bottom of it. It's that Roy realizes he's never bothered looking beyond that. It's never even occurred to him. For example, we know for a fact at least some of the goblins serving under Xykon at the Dungeon of Dorukan did so under duress, and some surrendered and were killed by Belkar. Did Roy know that? Apparently not, because he didn't care enough about their lives and dignity. Coup de grace comes to mind.

Roy is much better than most in this regard, almost up there with O-Chul. But this is a real shortcoming of his, and it's to his credit that he's acknowledging it now.

[MoiMagnus]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

I think the criticize here is not that they fought for their life as a default behaviour. It's that they not even once ask the goblinoids. It is that they never even wondered why.

The OOTS won a lot of their battles, I think it's fair to consider that at least once, they had the opportunity to make a prisoner, and ask them why they are following Xykon, or seek for goblinoids factions would be interested in being part of the good guys.

[Ornithologist]

So,

uh..

Turn's out Durkon's a solid moral center.


This is probably best relegated to the epilogue, but He should spend some time with V.

[TuringTest]

I giggled at Roy's "It's out of my system now" And I sympathize with how he needed that small outburst of emotion to become rational and efficient again.

Am I the only one to think that Durkon's realization about the ultimate injustice to the goblins gives the Order a strategic advantage? Before, their only option to try and convince Redcloak was to threaten with the world's destruction. Now, they can actually *negotiate* with something that Redcloak cares about, namely acting as ambassadors to the gods to come to an agreement for improvement (e.g. a goblins vs other races non-aggression pact in this world, and eventually improved conditions in the next).

Also, Durkon's punchline!

[RochtheCrusher]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

"Every time" is unreasonable.

"Even one time" is not unreasonable.

Roy and Durkon are coming to grips with the fact that they didn't try as hard to understand goblinoids as they did with human bandits, or dwarven bombers, or insane human paladins, or psychopathic twins who'd already tried to kill them half a dozen times, or even Xykon. Roy KNOWS why Xykon killed his father's master, because he bothered to ask.

I don't know that either one should have fallen for this, had they been paladins, but taking a beat to let that sink in, rather than brushing it off reflexively, is probably appropriate.

What defines being Lawful Good is that you try to improve your record.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[dancrilis]

Hmm, dubious about this direction but lets see where it goes.

[Dragonus45]

Imagine a flip.

I don't have to imagine it, I just have to look over at the goblins in How the Paladin Got His Scar. They were well past being plucky underdogs given a bad hand and were a functional nation just as ready and willing to perpetuate war as their neighbors.

[Aisper]

"If there's one thing anyone could say about Roy Greenhilt, it's that he's never managed to fight and talk at the same time."

This may be the most accurate dunk anyone has ever made on Roy.

(Dwarven accent removed for ease of reading)

[Worldsong]

What interests me now is whether Durkon has changed his mind about whether the gods should be involved in the solution, or if he still believes that it's up to the mortals to clean up this mess.

On one hand, his faith in the gods has just taken a pretty harsh beating. On the other, this new information could be an argument that unless this problem is addressed at the divine level, anything done by mortals might be nothing more than a short-term solution.