OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

[Shale]

What interests me now is whether Durkon has changed his mind about whether the gods should be involved in the solution, or if he still believes that it's up to the mortals to clean up this mess.

On one hand, his faith in the gods has just taken a pretty harsh beating. On the other, this new information could be an argument that unless this problem is addressed at the divine level, anything done by mortals might be nothing more than a short-term solution.

On the other hand, he knows better than any other mortal alive right now the difference between "the gods should" and "the gods can."

[Fyraltari]

Durkon is just the best.

There's a typo in panel 1, Roy says "wether or rot".

Edit: wait, no, I just can't read.

[Roselily2006]

I haven't read any of the thread so far before replying, but I'm sure it's just going to be filled with happiness and agreements and love.
(On a serious note, this should be fun. *grabs popcorn*)

[Dragonus45]

What interests me now is whether Durkon has changed his mind about whether the gods should be involved in the solution, or if he still believes that it's up to the mortals to clean up this mess.

On one hand, his faith in the gods has just taken a pretty harsh beating. On the other, this new information could be an argument that unless this problem is addressed at the divine level, anything done by mortals might be nothing more than a short-term solution.

A divine solution is flatly impossible, there is no perfect solution going to come down from on high to provide perfect equity of outcome to everyone because the gods have literally tied their own hands. The mortals getting it done is the only option left, whether it's short term or not.

[Trixie_One]

This may be the most accurate dunk anyone has ever made on Roy.

Yeah, that's just a beautiful taking apart of another character to make a point. Really well done.

[Jason]

To be fair to Roy, it's been a long time since he's fought any actual goblins. When was the last time - Azure City? Maybe even Dorukan's dungeon, if you don't count hobgoblins?
Roy was focused on Xykon as his enemy, and he knew Xykon didn't have any legitimate cause to be doing what he was doing. It's a mistake to have never thought of trying figure out why the goblins were following his orders, but an understandable one.

I will also note that there is a difference between "wronged from neglect" and "wronged from malice": it's much easier to get those in power on your side if they've been neglectful rather than if they actively hate and want to hurt you.

[Fyraltari]

The way he's matured and learned to assert himself is so cool to see. And the way he puts things is so straightforward yet eloquent, I wouldn't be surprised if he finds his calling in a leadership role after this story.

Calling it now: Durkon Thundershield, High Priest of Thor.

I feel like, at this point, the Giant could probably make a decent buck off of 'Redcloak was right' t-shirts, along the lines of the Magneto/Cyclops was right meme in the Marvel Universe

[Metastachydium]

"I think Redcloak is right" (with his diagnosis).
Boom! Headshot! Well argued, Durkon, weel argued!

You don't need to be Lawful Good, just Good.

And I will playfully slap the first person to argue that Chaotic Good is an excuse to be a murderhobo.

Well, it's not like Chaotic Good folks are actually Good. They just rationalize their antics through relativising the Moral/Ethical Norms and Rules they refuse to abide by.

[Ionathus]

Calling it now: Durkon Thundershield, High Priest of Thor.

Heck, at the rate he's calling Thor out, I wouldn't rule out "Thor Odinsson, High Priest of Durkon."

[Worldsong]

Well, it's not like Chaotic Good folks are actually Good. They just rationalize their antics through relativising the Moral/Ethical Norms and Rules they refuse to abide by.

That's it, I'm priming the Hand of Slapping.

[Ruck]

I don't have to imagine it, I just have to look over at the goblins in How the Paladin Got His Scar. They were well past being plucky underdogs given a bad hand and were a functional nation just as ready and willing to perpetuate war as their neighbors.

Given the actual outcome of that story, "they" is a very broad brush for "ready and willing to perpetuate war."

[137beth]

I'm really enjoying where this conversation is going. I've been waiting for well over a decade to see how Roy would react when he found out the truth about goblins.

[dancrilis]

Roy was focused on Xykon as his enemy, and he knew Xykon didn't have any legitimate cause to be doing what he was doing. It's a mistake to have never thought of trying figure out why the goblins were following his orders, but an understandable one.

All he knows is that Xykon wouldn't mind ruling the world and has no intention of destroying it - he has no idea why Xykon wants to rule the world any more then why the Goblins want to help him do it.

[BriarHobbit]

Nothing like a little crisis of faith/philosophical discussion before the big fight. Hopefully, it will eventually become clear why Durkon feels the need to have this discussion with Roy now. The Order is soon going to be in a fight for their lives (or memories).

[Dragonus45]

Given the actual outcome of that story, "they" is a very broad brush for "ready and willing to perpetuate war."

It's an appropriately broad one, it took a few independent actors from either side to break the momentum heading towards a war that both governments, or at at least the highest ranking representative of such in the room in the case of the Saphire Guard since technically they were operating rogue, were more then willing to get into. Because regardless of having a rough start or not they had reached rough parity, if also a state at least cold war with, pretty much everyone around them even if they did have a "rougher" start. A nation where "they" were just as happy to try and kill humans on sight as humans were them.

[Jason]

Of course, the first time Durkon tried to talk to a goblin about why they were fighting, the goblin answered his offer to peacefully resolve their differences by trying to implode him.

[locksmith of lo]

he's nev'r manag'd ta fight 'nd talk at tha same time

oh man! he's got you there, roy!

[Ionathus]

It's an appropriately broad one, it took a few independent actors from either side to break the momentum heading towards a war that both governments, or at at least the highest ranking representative of such in the room in the case of the Saphire Guard since technically they were operating rogue, were more then willing to get into. Because regardless of having a rough start or not they had reached rough parity, if also a state at least cold war with, pretty much everyone around them even if they did have a "rougher" start. A nation where "they" were just as happy to try and kill humans on sight as humans were them.

Out of all the developed hobgoblins we meet in GDGU, the majority do not want a war. I'm sure many at the fortress did, but it's just as possible that the original Supreme Leader was in the minority in that regard.

ninja edit:

Of course, the first time Durkon tried to talk to a goblin about why they were fighting, the goblin answered his offer to peacefully resolve their differences by trying to implode him.

Why is this such a persistent complaint? Of course the most developed villain isn't going to outright accept a peace offer the first time the heroes interact with him. You do it at the start of the story arc so that seed of doubt is planted and the concept is allowed to grow in everyone's (both characters and audience) minds. Had Redcloak accepted right away, we wouldn't have had this conversation between Durkon & Thor, and then Durkon & Roy.

[Bookshelfstud]

And now Serini will not have overheard this and perhaps have a change of heart because it was all in their heads...

Yeah I think this is really important. I'm expecting Serini to be invisible around them before she attacks, and if she overheard this conversation she might be much more willing to work with them, given her monstrous sympathies.

[Worldsong]

Of course, the first time Durkon tried to talk to a goblin about why they were fighting, the goblin answered his offer to peacefully resolve their differences by trying to implode him.

True, but that doesn't excuse Roy never even thinking about figuring out why all the goblins are doing this. It just means that Redcloak, as an individual, is an ass (and has earned his Evil alignment instead of just being assigned it because race) and Durkon was unlucky that his attempt at doing the right thing had him walking up to the most volatile and dangerous of all the goblins.

[jidasfire]

To be fair to Roy, I don't get the impression he's the type who would hunt goblins for XP. That's more Belkar's bag. Roy's proven more than once that he does prefer reasonable solutions to violent ones if they're available. I would say such solutions would have been impossible during the Battle of Azure City, for example, but he could certainly have tried harder in the Dungeon of Dorukan. Most of those goblins were enslaved by Xykon and may have actually rebelled if given the chance.

Still, it's good that he's actually showing some humility here and realizing he was wrong not to try. Just like in real life, sometimes even well-intentioned people can be blind to the iniquities of their society until confronted with them, and what matters is if and how they correct. I think Roy will learn the right lessons here, though as to how that will be applied is anyone's guess.

[Fyraltari]

So why are they having this conversation telepathically? I don't see why it would be private or why Roy wouldn't be there if they talked?

[Emberlily]

And now Serini will not have overheard this and perhaps have a change of heart because it was all in their heads...

Oh, yeah. I was wondering why the comic spent a panel just emphasizing that they were going to be talking privately and that's probably the exact reason, isn't it.

Like, it makes sense, since in the past Roy has had these sorts of conversations one on one (like with V) and the comic would be even more word-dense if we got interjections from everyone else, but...

Sereni's conflict with the Order being built even further on "if only they knew what the other knew" makes it even more juicy I guess!

[Yarrun]

So why are they having this conversation telepathically? I don't see why it would be private or why Roy wouldn't be there if they talked?

If they wanted to have a private conversation without telepathy, they'd have to move away from the rest of the group, away from the entrance, deeper into the tunnels.

This means Xykon might return when they're not ready to ambush him. Also leaves them vulnerable to ambush by anything hiding in the tunnels.

[White_Mouse]

Speaking of hands, Roy's hand in first panel got disconnected from his armour sleeve.

[Ionathus]

Possibly Durkon doesn't want to potentially call out Roy in front of the rest of the team, but mostly I think it's a matter of "don't make noise if we don't have to."

[elros]

Now that the Giant has declared that the Goblins are right, the question is what is the correct "treatment" to help the Goblins. Thor admitted that the world is a limited ecosystem, so there are not enough resources for every species to have everything they want. I suspect The Giant will either make it so:

• the Snarl and the rifts are really a portal to limitless worlds, and everyone will be able to get what they want, or

• the Snarl or Xykon will be such a threat that everyone unifies to fight against him.

[Jason]

Possibly Durkon doesn't want to potentially call out Roy in front of the rest of the team, but mostly I think it's a matter of "don't make noise if we don't have to."

Mostly it's "so the invisible Serini lurking nearby won't overhear their discussion and realize that Roy is a reasonable person she should ally with before she attacks them in the next comic."

[blackshadow111]

Well, this is silly. Of course there was a reason, the reason was that Fenrir spent all their chargen points on their unique abilities, growing fast and breeding large numbers. He figured it would let them make up the difference in assets.

He was wrong, is all.

[Thermophille]

This all is making me think of the campaign I'm running right now.

For generations, goblins have lived on the fringes of society, stealing food to maintain their underground burrows beyond human borders, in unfarmable lands.

Seeing the goblins as pests, there's been a modest bounty on goblins (5sp each) as long as anyone can remember.

Eventually, the goblins start to attack humans in force, with the end goal of intimidating them enough to get them to give up enough land that the goblins can farm food without being killed.

Of course, the duke of the area isn't being honest about that part, and everyone thinks that the goblins are mindless monsters.


It's not as nuanced as this, but this campaign has been going since August.