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2021-04-30, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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2021-04-30, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2021
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- Chicago area
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Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
To play Devil’s Advocate for a moment:
While Roy and the Order should have asked why the goblins were working with Xykon, they DID have a reason supplied for them by Shojo and corroborated by Xykon himself: Xykon is laying siege to the gates in order to use them as leverage to rule the world. Redcloak, representative of the goblins, is assisting Xykon.
They could have asked Redcloak or any of the goblins at any point what their motivation really was, but can you blame them for neglecting to do so, or even consider doing so? If they’d stopped to ask, they would have discovered Redcloak is double crossing Xykon and this could have been solved differently by now. But how often have they really even had a chance to ask, other than in Dorukan’s Dungeon (not fully relevant: but I believe the villains’ motivations were only half-formed by then, correct)?
I do not think it’s even fair for Durkon to chastise Roy at all here. It’s not like he ever asked until just now, and this was the first chance they had where Xykon wasn’t also present and trigger-happy.
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2021-04-30, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
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- In your heart.
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
Ive had some players that try the diplomacy in almost every encounter with sentient creatures, going as far as dismissing tactical advantage to do so. Not only goblins, but vampires, evil dragons, etc, only resorting to violence when there was no other alternative and always trying to pursue a nonlethal resolution. It pissed the other more murderhobo inclined members off quite a bit at first, but then they got into it, finding ways to make combat stop or getting into standoffs in order to try and reason.
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2021-04-30, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
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- Earth and/or not-Earth
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Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
There are plenty of hobgoblin civilians - we just don't see them, because they stayed home when the soldiers went to war.
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2021-04-30, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
Well, yeah, that's a reasonable explanation if you haven't been given a direct revelation from a god. Makes sense that you'd assume it's due to military factors, etc. But when Roy does get that revelation from his best friend and faithful cleric of Thor, it's to his credit that he goes "huh, yeah I never thought about that before."
I don't think many groups (Pre-O-Chul Sapphire Guard aside) actively hunt goblinoids to extinction. They just crowd them out of the best areas, by force if necessary.
As befits a cleric of Thor!Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-04-30 at 11:14 AM. Reason: ninja
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2021-04-30, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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2021-04-30, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Somewhere in Utah...
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Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
Dungeon Crawlin' Fools features the party capturing two goblins and interrogating them in pages set just before they enter Dorukan's dungeon. Elan successfully adjusts their attitude to "toady" with a diplomacy check so they would have answered anything he asked. Apparently no one in the Order thought to ask why they were following Xykon's orders.
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2021-04-30, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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2021-04-30, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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- Frankfurt, Germany
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2021-04-30, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
- Location
- The Old West
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
*Goblin charging at you with a battle-axe*
"Debate meeeeeeeeee!"
Durkon is ultimately correct and as someone else pointed out its not like they haven't spared and empathized with non-goblinoid foes. "Bags of XP" viewpoint or not, the OOTS never actually paused to consider if the goblins, any goblins, could be talked to (except on the rare occasion they couldn't fight their way out and even then that was just about survival).Last edited by Luccan; 2021-04-30 at 11:28 AM.
Avatar by linklele
Spoiler: Build Contests
E6 Iron Chef XVI Shared First Place: Black Wing
E6 Iron Chef XXI Shared Second Place: The Shadow's Hand
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2021-04-30, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
How quickly people forget about the tribe of ogres that attacked the dirt farmers. There are a lot of humans who are poor and attacked by non-human races, too.
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2021-04-30, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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2021-04-30, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
Read around that link a bit, and wow, this page seems a bit colder when compared to the last few comics
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2021-04-30, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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2021-04-30, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2020
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
I'm not sure if I'm following.. Thor backed up the military thing.
As Thor revealed, the goblins were created by Fenris, God of Monsters, under the principle of goblin-supremacy through rapid evolutionary adaption. Thor criticizes this strategy as ineffective (which he's right about), and the goblins' resulting weakness means that they lack the strength to compete for desirable land.
Except when they win, e.g. at Azure City. Then they do get, e.g., Azure City. Until they lose it, if the Azurites can come back and win the next battle.
It's a military-strength issue through-and-through. Thor's testimony only further clarified this to be the case.Last edited by Some; 2021-04-30 at 11:35 AM.
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2021-04-30, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
Yep. The goblins the OOTS met were Xykon's minions in the first dungeon, and later, an army of hobgoblins (also commanded by Xykon) attacking the city of their friends and allies. I don't recall any goblin emissary, and even in this arc, Durkon got almost imploded when he did try good-faith negotiations with Redcloak. You get a sense they weren't on fertile grounds for talks. Were the PCs even aware of any rift between Xykon and Redcloak?
Sure, if the goblins have valid complaints, that's important information and you can adress them in good time - if only because it's the right thing to do. But the PCs' job was to stop Xykon and save the world. Unless it turns out goblin motivations are the way to do it, they have nothing to feel bad about: there have been people with reasonable motivations on all sides of every conflict ever, and it still matters who wins.Last edited by Telenil; 2021-04-30 at 11:30 AM.
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2021-04-30, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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- Somewhere in Utah...
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2021-04-30, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
Haha, this is my exact mindset when my players are up against one of my more-developed monsters! "Please oh please, let them fight back but also continue to argue with the BBEG the whole time so I get to share the cool evil philosophy talking points I've been refining for months."
Yeah, there are a lot of little touches here and there when you look back at old comics. Rich wasn't bringing it to the forefront or lingering on it very often, but it was definitely there when I did a reread after recent developments. Heck, even Belkar's comment in #0013!
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2021-04-30, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2018
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- NJ (right next to philly)
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2021-04-30, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Atlanta, GA
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
I really like the conversation this comic had started, it is very interesting to see everyone's positions on a incredibly complicated situation that can only exist in this long form story. Also nice to see how civil it has been generally speaking.
My add and what I love about this comic is thus:
Roy is, while imperfect, good. Good enough that even celestially he was judged as such. From the very beginning he has been conscious that every individual is unique and you should not judge a random half orc without more information. He tries to do the right thing. He learns and adapts.
Despite all of this, despite even being good enough to ascend the mountain, he has just realized he inadvertantly condemned an entire people and didn't even think enough to question it for a moment. It took an outside prospective.
Realizing you have been critically wrong about something you would have considered fundamental to yourself is... Hard. Every past experience now has a retroactive eye knowing you were in fact the villain in some ways. The knowledge that without this realization, you might have continued your whole life doing the same.
I look forward to him reckoning this with himself and others. He can't change the past. He can change the future. Will be very interesting to see if he is up to that task.
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2021-04-30, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-04-30, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
Hmm, has Roy even fought a Goblin since Book 1? I guess we're making everything in there Hard Core Cannon then.
Also, comparing his best friends sudden betrayal with someone he doesn't know coming at with an axe isn't exactly a solid comparison. Better those frost giants, talkie man talked with them
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2021-04-30, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2021
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
I have to completely disagree with Durkon, Redcloak was in no way right. While the Goblins did get a bad hand of cards, they are in no way entitled for a divine change simply because they didn't win via zerg rush, especially if other's have to take losses even though they weren't involved.
Also Roy really has no reason to be ashamed on his treatment towards the goblins since not only was it shared hostilities between both groups, He clearly knew that the Goblins were working towards obviously evil goals (The gates and destroying Azure City) while also blatantly showing they didn't care who they killed to get that goal.
Also not really hard to see why there hasn't been much success at talking with the Goblins since it really seems that unless that you have enough constitution like O-Chul, It's very unlikely to get anything out of the attacking goblins and even then it will likely be useless information that won't help with the conflict.
Redcloak and the Dark One's goal isn't as noble as they continue to declare since both of them have shown themselves to be spiteful, holier than thou killers that want to make rather terroristic threats while only caring about their own kind (and they were still shown to be apathetic towards Hobgoblins/Bugbears until they were usable (although Redcloak did get nicer to the hobgoblins after letting hundreds of them die in a zergrush)). Also little to no evidence of how much or little they would take the advantage of the snarl even when getting their desires from the gods.
Also with Azure City destroyed, I doubt that the animal pantheon would show much patience towards them.
IMO, the scenario mostly looks like a Age of Empires game, where one of the players starts raging because they started losing and now either wants to use cheat commands or make the other players give him resources due to their entitled rampage as they attack the other players in the meantime.
Also through out the comic, we have only seen two "named" Goblins that actually managed to make peaceful relations with other races as they didn't want more hostilities, Right-Eye and the "Former supreme leader of the Hobgoblins". Also considering how much damage Redcloak has caused with/without Xykon, It's not a surprise that no one has interest trying to converse with him, especially when he has spells that might kill you during that short moment.
Also considering the world, I don't really get why Serini expects Xykon to be friendlier towards monster races when she clearly should know how Evil alignment characters, especially someone like Xykon behave.
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2021-04-30, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
Some people have a serious "Dragon in leather pants" opinion of goblins.
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2021-04-30, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
Why are people saying things like "some humans don't have it easy either" or "this or that goblin is a jerk, so even though Redcloak, Durkon, Roy and Thor agree there is a problem, actually they're wrong".
ungelic is us
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2021-04-30, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
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2021-04-30, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
ALSO, Redcloak's brother actually founded a city with goblins and humans co-existing, and Redcloak basically flushed it down the toilet.
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2021-04-30, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
Yes. The Goblins in the beginning of the story, and in OoTPCs were the minions/army of the Evil Overlord.
Yeah. Back in Old D&D, parley was an integral part of a lot of encounters. I guess later generation D&D players forgot how to do that. (OK, fine, trying to talk to a green slime never worked, so it was obviously not a part of every encounter) If I may quote Thog: talkie man talkei too much
What is being left out of this discussion, at the moment, is the hard fact that it is Xykon that needs killing, and Redcloak is his ally, but I think Durkon's next point is going to be (in the next strip) "we do need to kill Xykon, but (1) we don't need to kill Redcloak and (2) if we don't kill Redcloak we have a chance at removing the Snarl as a problem forever (yadda yadda TDO/Purple Quiddity) thus (3) we must not kill Redcloak."
But, as Durkon is not the best at speaking skills, he's having trouble spitting it out.
"Kill or capture" has become "capture" as a mission statement regarding Redcloak. (Or so Durkon is trying to persuade Roy). With Xykon, it's Kill/Destroy/etc.
Roy, as the leader, needs to articulate this to the rest of the party. Not on altruistic grounds - remember V and Belkar are around, that sell is a bit too big of an ask - but on save the world grounds. (Which the rest of the party bought into back in Book 3 when he tore up their contracts).
Yes: Thor mentioned something to Durkon about "you're on your own" ... I'll find the strip later.
Hard to bet against that. True.
Until Roy and the Order learned more stuff in Azure City, they didn't know enough to ask any goblin what was behind all of this. Having a liche to defeat first (whose armed minions the Goblins are/were) poses a plethora of obstacles to sitting down over a coffee and exploring other conflict resolution.
That necessary first step, absent the coffee, finally became possible in Book 7 as Durkon and Redcloak made an initial parley attempt. Just because that first attempt was a less than specatular success doesn't mean that further dialogue can't be attempted.
And that, I think, will be Durkon's subsequent point a few strips from now.
All Serini is going to do is toss a turd into the Order's punch bowl. She'll make it worse, initially. Like Redcloak, albeit for different reasons, she has a very narrow point of view.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-04-30 at 11:48 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-04-30, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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2021-04-30, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2008
Re: OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread
I'll say it again: Redcloak is too broken a leader to help the goblins.
I think there have been A LOT OF EVIDENCE that the person who will lead the goblins will be Oona.
She's intelligent, she's politically knowledgeable, she knows that there is hypocrisy among the goblinoid races, and she isn't one to step into a fight for no reason.