OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

[Jurai]

Durkon Thundershield throwing enough shade to kill an entire forest.

[Empiar93]

To play Devil’s Advocate for a moment:
While Roy and the Order should have asked why the goblins were working with Xykon, they DID have a reason supplied for them by Shojo and corroborated by Xykon himself: Xykon is laying siege to the gates in order to use them as leverage to rule the world. Redcloak, representative of the goblins, is assisting Xykon.

They could have asked Redcloak or any of the goblins at any point what their motivation really was, but can you blame them for neglecting to do so, or even consider doing so? If they’d stopped to ask, they would have discovered Redcloak is double crossing Xykon and this could have been solved differently by now. But how often have they really even had a chance to ask, other than in Dorukan’s Dungeon (not fully relevant: but I believe the villains’ motivations were only half-formed by then, correct)?

I do not think it’s even fair for Durkon to chastise Roy at all here. It’s not like he ever asked until just now, and this was the first chance they had where Xykon wasn’t also present and trigger-happy.

[Pampukin]

I don't think Roy's "realization" near the end of today's comic is a fair one. Nor is Durkon's comparison to "fighting a vampire while talking to him."

There's a big difference between believing that the person you've known well for a long time might have motives or behaviors that are not "his" driving him to fight you, and believing that every random creature who attacks you will screaming for your blood is somebody you might be able to talk down.

I sincerely doubt that nobody has ever asked a goblin why he was attacking - if only when the goblins had innocent dirt farmers pinned to the ground and were killing them or torturing them for fun - but the goblins also don't tend to think like Redcloak does. They don't do the whole "because we're starving" explanation - they gloat about how they're stronger, or about how it's "because we can," or don't bother answering.

Ive had some players that try the diplomacy in almost every encounter with sentient creatures, going as far as dismissing tactical advantage to do so. Not only goblins, but vampires, evil dragons, etc, only resorting to violence when there was no other alternative and always trying to pursue a nonlethal resolution. It pissed the other more murderhobo inclined members off quite a bit at first, but then they got into it, finding ways to make combat stop or getting into standoffs in order to try and reason.

[InvisibleBison]

And considering that seemingly just about every member of the hobgoblin civilization had combat training, it's certainly not unreasonable to conclude that goblinoids are aggressive by nature.

There are plenty of hobgoblin civilians - we just don't see them, because they stayed home when the soldiers went to war.

[Ionathus]

I dunno if Goblinoid land-quality is really a question to have had.

It's pretty obvious that, in-universe, it's been a matter of military success. This is explicitly discussed in the arc with Elan's dad in the Western Continent, where it's said that the Elves took the fertile lands to the north while other races (including humans and lizardfolk) fight over the relatively barren lands to the south.

Well, yeah, that's a reasonable explanation if you haven't been given a direct revelation from a god. Makes sense that you'd assume it's due to military factors, etc. But when Roy does get that revelation from his best friend and faithful cleric of Thor, it's to his credit that he goes "huh, yeah I never thought about that before."

A major unexplained phenomena is that there's somehow an equilibrium between humanoid races. It's unclear how goblins somehow persist if they're really being hunted all of the time.. maybe they mass-respawn, like in an MMORPG?

I don't think many groups (Pre-O-Chul Sapphire Guard aside) actively hunt goblinoids to extinction. They just crowd them out of the best areas, by force if necessary.

Durkon Thundershield throwing enough shade to kill an entire forest.

As befits a cleric of Thor!

[JonahFalcon]

I love how tenaciously some posters in this forum still cling to their belief that Redclock is absolutely wrong and that there is no imbalance between the goblins and other races no matter how many comics the Giant posts confirming they are wrong.

Doesn't matter. Redcloak is also a mentally goth teen with bad information, and who is, worse, so mired in the sunk cost fallacy he could use it for a swimming pool.

[Jason]

They could have asked Redcloak or any of the goblins at any point what their motivation really was, but can you blame them for neglecting to do so, or even consider doing so? If they’d stopped to ask, they would have discovered Redcloak is double crossing Xykon and this could have been solved differently by now. But how often have they really even had a chance to ask, other than in Dorukan’s Dungeon (not fully relevant: but I believe the villains’ motivations were only half-formed by then, correct)?

Dungeon Crawlin' Fools features the party capturing two goblins and interrogating them in pages set just before they enter Dorukan's dungeon. Elan successfully adjusts their attitude to "toady" with a diplomacy check so they would have answered anything he asked. Apparently no one in the Order thought to ask why they were following Xykon's orders.

[JonahFalcon]

Dungeon Crawlin' Fools features the party capturing two goblins and interrogating them in pages set just before they enter Dorukan's dungeon. Elan successfully adjusts their attitude to "toady" with a diplomacy check so they would have answered anything he asked. Apparently no one in the Order thought to ask why they were following Xykon's orders.

{scrubbed}

[Crimsonmantle]

I feel like, at this point, the Giant could probably make a decent buck off of 'Redcloak was right' t-shirts, along the lines of the Magneto/Cyclops was right meme in the Marvel Universe

Where's my "I thought Redcloak was right before it was cool" badge?
(Of course the point wasn't so much right as in right. More like, poetically true and a deeply impressive antivillain.)

[Luccan]

*Goblin charging at you with a battle-axe*

"Debate meeeeeeeeee!"

Durkon is ultimately correct and as someone else pointed out its not like they haven't spared and empathized with non-goblinoid foes. "Bags of XP" viewpoint or not, the OOTS never actually paused to consider if the goblins, any goblins, could be talked to (except on the rare occasion they couldn't fight their way out and even then that was just about survival).

[elros]

Thor's and Roy's "well yeah, when you think about it the goblins really are living on the worst land," reaction is the strongest confirmation we've ever had in the comic that there really is something to Redcloak's "everyone else got the good land" gripe. Both the bad guys and the good guys now agree that's the case, so we'll have to accept that it's generally the truth. And Thor seems to agree that it has been the case from the beginning.

How quickly people forget about the tribe of ogres that attacked the dirt farmers. There are a lot of humans who are poor and attacked by non-human races, too.

[bunsen_h]

Possibly Durkon doesn't want to potentially call out Roy in front of the rest of the team, but mostly I think it's a matter of "don't make noise if we don't have to."

That would be my assumption.

They could have asked Redcloak or any of the goblins at any point what their motivation really was, but can you blame them for neglecting to do so, or even consider doing so? If they’d stopped to ask, they would have discovered Redcloak is double crossing Xykon and this could have been solved differently by now.

I really don't think the "double crossing Xykon" stuff would have come out.

[Yarrun]

There are plenty of hobgoblin civilians - we just don't see them, because they stayed home when the soldiers went to war.

Read around that link a bit, and wow, this page seems a bit colder when compared to the last few comics

[dancrilis]

How quickly people forget about the tribe of ogres that attacked the dirt farmers. There are a lot of humans who are poor and attacked by non-human races, too.

We never see the ogres attack the farmers and the one guy they captured admitted he got captured deliberately (and that he wasn't hurt).

[Some]

Well, yeah, that's a reasonable explanation if you haven't been given a direct revelation from a god. Makes sense that you'd assume it's due to military factors, etc.

I'm not sure if I'm following.. Thor backed up the military thing.

As Thor revealed, the goblins were created by Fenris, God of Monsters, under the principle of goblin-supremacy through rapid evolutionary adaption. Thor criticizes this strategy as ineffective (which he's right about), and the goblins' resulting weakness means that they lack the strength to compete for desirable land.

Except when they win, e.g. at Azure City. Then they do get, e.g., Azure City. Until they lose it, if the Azurites can come back and win the next battle.

It's a military-strength issue through-and-through. Thor's testimony only further clarified this to be the case.

[Telenil]

To be fair to Roy, from his perspective the goblins aren't (weren't?) working for Redcloak. They were working for Xykon.
Heck, as far back as strip 13, he'd give an angry glare to anyone suggesting they kill sentient creatures just because they have green skin and fangs...

Yep. The goblins the OOTS met were Xykon's minions in the first dungeon, and later, an army of hobgoblins (also commanded by Xykon) attacking the city of their friends and allies. I don't recall any goblin emissary, and even in this arc, Durkon got almost imploded when he did try good-faith negotiations with Redcloak. You get a sense they weren't on fertile grounds for talks. Were the PCs even aware of any rift between Xykon and Redcloak?

Sure, if the goblins have valid complaints, that's important information and you can adress them in good time - if only because it's the right thing to do. But the PCs' job was to stop Xykon and save the world. Unless it turns out goblin motivations are the way to do it, they have nothing to feel bad about: there have been people with reasonable motivations on all sides of every conflict ever, and it still matters who wins.

[Jason]

How quickly people forget about the tribe of ogres that attacked the dirt farmers. There are a lot of humans who are poor and attacked by non-human races, too.

So? Not all humans live on poor land. Presumably some goblins live on better land than others too, but both sides in the comic now agree that goblins in general live in poorer lands than other races.

[Ionathus]

*Goblin charging at you with a battle-axe*

"Debate meeeeeeeeee!"

Haha, this is my exact mindset when my players are up against one of my more-developed monsters! "Please oh please, let them fight back but also continue to argue with the BBEG the whole time so I get to share the cool evil philosophy talking points I've been refining for months."

Read around that link a bit, and wow, this page seems a bit colder when compared to the last few comics

Yeah, there are a lot of little touches here and there when you look back at old comics. Rich wasn't bringing it to the forefront or lingering on it very often, but it was definitely there when I did a reread after recent developments. Heck, even Belkar's comment in #0013!

[gatemansgc]

And now Serini will not have overheard this and perhaps have a change of heart because it was all in their heads...

almost forgot about her teleporting in already!

[Nimbus]

I really like the conversation this comic had started, it is very interesting to see everyone's positions on a incredibly complicated situation that can only exist in this long form story. Also nice to see how civil it has been generally speaking.

My add and what I love about this comic is thus:

Roy is, while imperfect, good. Good enough that even celestially he was judged as such. From the very beginning he has been conscious that every individual is unique and you should not judge a random half orc without more information. He tries to do the right thing. He learns and adapts.

Despite all of this, despite even being good enough to ascend the mountain, he has just realized he inadvertantly condemned an entire people and didn't even think enough to question it for a moment. It took an outside prospective.

Realizing you have been critically wrong about something you would have considered fundamental to yourself is... Hard. Every past experience now has a retroactive eye knowing you were in fact the villain in some ways. The knowledge that without this realization, you might have continued your whole life doing the same.

I look forward to him reckoning this with himself and others. He can't change the past. He can change the future. Will be very interesting to see if he is up to that task.

[Fyraltari]

Read around that link a bit, and wow, this page seems a bit colder when compared to the last few comics

It's a direct paraphrase of a real-life quote. The message has always been clear here.

[Teioh]

Hmm, has Roy even fought a Goblin since Book 1? I guess we're making everything in there Hard Core Cannon then.

Also, comparing his best friends sudden betrayal with someone he doesn't know coming at with an axe isn't exactly a solid comparison. Better those frost giants, talkie man talked with them

[Spartan360]

I have to completely disagree with Durkon, Redcloak was in no way right. While the Goblins did get a bad hand of cards, they are in no way entitled for a divine change simply because they didn't win via zerg rush, especially if other's have to take losses even though they weren't involved.

Also Roy really has no reason to be ashamed on his treatment towards the goblins since not only was it shared hostilities between both groups, He clearly knew that the Goblins were working towards obviously evil goals (The gates and destroying Azure City) while also blatantly showing they didn't care who they killed to get that goal.

Also not really hard to see why there hasn't been much success at talking with the Goblins since it really seems that unless that you have enough constitution like O-Chul, It's very unlikely to get anything out of the attacking goblins and even then it will likely be useless information that won't help with the conflict.

Redcloak and the Dark One's goal isn't as noble as they continue to declare since both of them have shown themselves to be spiteful, holier than thou killers that want to make rather terroristic threats while only caring about their own kind (and they were still shown to be apathetic towards Hobgoblins/Bugbears until they were usable (although Redcloak did get nicer to the hobgoblins after letting hundreds of them die in a zergrush)). Also little to no evidence of how much or little they would take the advantage of the snarl even when getting their desires from the gods.

Also with Azure City destroyed, I doubt that the animal pantheon would show much patience towards them.

IMO, the scenario mostly looks like a Age of Empires game, where one of the players starts raging because they started losing and now either wants to use cheat commands or make the other players give him resources due to their entitled rampage as they attack the other players in the meantime.

Also through out the comic, we have only seen two "named" Goblins that actually managed to make peaceful relations with other races as they didn't want more hostilities, Right-Eye and the "Former supreme leader of the Hobgoblins". Also considering how much damage Redcloak has caused with/without Xykon, It's not a surprise that no one has interest trying to converse with him, especially when he has spells that might kill you during that short moment.

Also considering the world, I don't really get why Serini expects Xykon to be friendlier towards monster races when she clearly should know how Evil alignment characters, especially someone like Xykon behave.

[JonahFalcon]

Some people have a serious "Dragon in leather pants" opinion of goblins.

[hroþila]

Why are people saying things like "some humans don't have it easy either" or "this or that goblin is a jerk, so even though Redcloak, Durkon, Roy and Thor agree there is a problem, actually they're wrong".

[JonahFalcon]

Also with Azure City destroyed, I doubt that the animal pantheon would show much patience towards them.

They aren't. Rat, who tried to make friends with The Dark One, is furious with them.

And every time diplomatic offers are made to The Dark One, he melts the messenger.

[JonahFalcon]

ALSO, Redcloak's brother actually founded a city with goblins and humans co-existing, and Redcloak basically flushed it down the toilet.

[KorvinStarmast]

I feel like it's holding them to a bit of an unreasonable standard here to say they were so very wrong to be defending themselves from people trying to kill them instead of getting their whole life story every time to work out what the best nonviolent solution to the person trying to stab them is.

Yes. The Goblins in the beginning of the story, and in OoTPCs were the minions/army of the Evil Overlord.

Yeaaaah, the only goblins they ever spoke to were grumpy teenagers. Which probably want the best source of information.

Yeah. Back in Old D&D, parley was an integral part of a lot of encounters. I guess later generation D&D players forgot how to do that. (OK, fine, trying to talk to a green slime never worked, so it was obviously not a part of every encounter)

Hmm, dubious about this direction but lets see where it goes.

If I may quote Thog: talkie man talkei too much

What is being left out of this discussion, at the moment, is the hard fact that it is Xykon that needs killing, and Redcloak is his ally, but I think Durkon's next point is going to be (in the next strip) "we do need to kill Xykon, but (1) we don't need to kill Redcloak and (2) if we don't kill Redcloak we have a chance at removing the Snarl as a problem forever (yadda yadda TDO/Purple Quiddity) thus (3) we must not kill Redcloak."

But, as Durkon is not the best at speaking skills, he's having trouble spitting it out.

"Kill or capture" has become "capture" as a mission statement regarding Redcloak. (Or so Durkon is trying to persuade Roy). With Xykon, it's Kill/Destroy/etc.

Roy, as the leader, needs to articulate this to the rest of the party. Not on altruistic grounds - remember V and Belkar are around, that sell is a bit too big of an ask - but on save the world grounds. (Which the rest of the party bought into back in Book 3 when he tore up their contracts).

A divine solution is flatly impossible , there is no perfect solution going to come down from on high to provide perfe

Yes: Thor mentioned something to Durkon about "you're on your own" ... I'll find the strip later.

Mostly it's "so the invisible Serini lurking nearby won't overhear their discussion and realize that Roy is a reasonable person she should ally with before she attacks them in the next comic."

Hard to bet against that.

Durkon's great, team's moral center doing his job absolutely right.

True.

To play Devil’s Advocate for a moment:
While Roy and the Order should have asked why the goblins were working with Xykon, they DID have a reason supplied for them by Shojo and corroborated by Xykon himself: Xykon is laying siege to the gates in order to use them as leverage to rule the world. Redcloak, representative of the goblins, is assisting Xykon.

Until Roy and the Order learned more stuff in Azure City, they didn't know enough to ask any goblin what was behind all of this. Having a liche to defeat first (whose armed minions the Goblins are/were) poses a plethora of obstacles to sitting down over a coffee and exploring other conflict resolution.

That necessary first step, absent the coffee, finally became possible in Book 7 as Durkon and Redcloak made an initial parley attempt. Just because that first attempt was a less than specatular success doesn't mean that further dialogue can't be attempted.

And that, I think, will be Durkon's subsequent point a few strips from now.

All Serini is going to do is toss a turd into the Order's punch bowl. She'll make it worse, initially. Like Redcloak, albeit for different reasons, she has a very narrow point of view.

[hroþila]

ALSO, Redcloak's brother actually founded a city with goblins and humans co-existing, and Redcloak basically flushed it down the toilet.

Almost every bit of this is wrong.

[JonahFalcon]

I'll say it again: Redcloak is too broken a leader to help the goblins.

I think there have been A LOT OF EVIDENCE that the person who will lead the goblins will be Oona.

She's intelligent, she's politically knowledgeable, she knows that there is hypocrisy among the goblinoid races, and she isn't one to step into a fight for no reason.