OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

[understatement]

Some people have a serious "Dragon in leather pants" opinion of goblins.

Groan.

Someone saying "hey, this guy maybe has a point" doesn't equate to "I support this guy and think everything he does is right and justified," despite all the strawmen claiming otherwise.

*

I'm wondering if Roy might try to talk to Redcloak (it'll still probably fail), since he has a better grasp on diplomacy finesse and is also just much more straightforward about it.

[JonahFalcon]

Almost every bit of this is wrong.

https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Right-Eye

You didn't read Start of Darkness, eh?

[DaFlipp]

Read around that link a bit, and wow, this page seems a bit colder when compared to the last few comics

Honestly, that page has had me primed for ages to expect a plot twist/arc in which the elves wind up as antagonists, at least in some form.

At this point we're far enough into the plot that I'm not really expecting it anymore, but it wouldn't surprise me if Rich Burlew had considered it at some point, since that comic very effectively portrays that the elves are 1.) nominally on the heroes' sides, 2.) brutally efficient (this more from the comics preceding it), and 3.) surprisingly cruel. It's not hard to imagine a scenario where the heroes negotiate a truce with the goblins, only for their elven allies to deduce that outright subjugation/extermination is the most "logical" fate for their foes. Actually, depending on how this "find a way to negotiate with the goblins" arc goes, I guess it could still happen!

(To be clear by "the elves" I mean the specific nation/military that those particular elves come from, not necessarily all elves everywhere.)

[hroþila]

https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Right-Eye

I know who Right-Eye is. Your post was still factually wrong on almost every point.

[JonahFalcon]

I know who Right-Eye is. Your post was still factually wrong on almost every point.

Hmm-mmm.

What was the meaning of Right-Eye's last words to Redcloak. Enlighten me.

[hroþila]

Hmm-mmm.

What was the meaning of Right-Eye's last words to Redcloak. Enlighten me.

I'm not interested in chasing goalposts.

[danielxcutter]

Durkon is just the best.

There's a typo in panel 1, Roy says "wether or rot".

Edit: wait, no, I just can't read.

I know, I made that mistake at first too.

Calling it now: Durkon Thundershield, High Priest of Thor.

Well he's certainly younger than Rubyrock, and he's probably higher level and her by now.

Plus, y'know, he might be the only living cleric who's actually spoken with Thor so extra points for that too.

Pretty much.

Given the actual outcome of that story, "they" is a very broad brush for "ready and willing to perpetuate war."

Less "brush" and more "Great Wall of China with bristles" if you ask me.

True, but that doesn't excuse Roy never even thinking about figuring out why all the goblins are doing this. It just means that Redcloak, as an individual, is an ass (and has earned his Evil alignment instead of just being assigned it because race) and Durkon was unlucky that his attempt at doing the right thing had him walking up to the most volatile and dangerous of all the goblins.

In short: Redcloak being an asshat does not automatically invalidate everything that comes out of his mouth.

This all is making me think of the campaign I'm running right now.

For generations, goblins have lived on the fringes of society, stealing food to maintain their underground burrows beyond human borders, in unfarmable lands.

Seeing the goblins as pests, there's been a modest bounty on goblins (5sp each) as long as anyone can remember.

Eventually, the goblins start to attack humans in force, with the end goal of intimidating them enough to get them to give up enough land that the goblins can farm food without being killed.

Of course, the duke of the area isn't being honest about that part, and everyone thinks that the goblins are mindless monsters.

I like your DM.

I wonder if they're setting up a How to Train Your Dragons 2 situation here.

Hiccup learned the hard way that some people, like Drago Bludvist, are too broken to listen to the peaceful solution. Redcloak may be too broken to save or negotiate with.

I was personally under the impression that Drago was an asswipe, though. And didn't have a tenth of Redcloak's nuance or complexity.

It never ends, does it?

I love how tenaciously some posters in this forum still cling to their belief that Redclock is absolutely wrong and that there is no imbalance between the goblins and other races no matter how many comics the Giant posts confirming they are wrong.

This truly is the Song That Never Ends isn't it?

No wait, not annoying enough. More like song that gets on everyone's nerves. One kid in elementary school sung that on the bus once and I still remembered it fifteen years and more later to look it up.

To play Devil’s Advocate for a moment:
While Roy and the Order should have asked why the goblins were working with Xykon, they DID have a reason supplied for them by Shojo and corroborated by Xykon himself: Xykon is laying siege to the gates in order to use them as leverage to rule the world. Redcloak, representative of the goblins, is assisting Xykon.

They could have asked Redcloak or any of the goblins at any point what their motivation really was, but can you blame them for neglecting to do so, or even consider doing so? If they’d stopped to ask, they would have discovered Redcloak is double crossing Xykon and this could have been solved differently by now. But how often have they really even had a chance to ask, other than in Dorukan’s Dungeon (not fully relevant: but I believe the villains’ motivations were only half-formed by then, correct)?

I do not think it’s even fair for Durkon to chastise Roy at all here. It’s not like he ever asked until just now, and this was the first chance they had where Xykon wasn’t also present and trigger-happy.

And that is why Roy is still LG and trying, instead of the deva taking a look at his file and chucking it straight to Mechanus(or worse). As a single thing it isn't much of a mark on his alignment, but the problem is that a gazillion people had the chance and far too few people bothered to even consider it, plus the active asshattery some of the paladins pulled in the bonus material.

Doesn't matter. Redcloak is also a mentally goth teen with bad information, and who is, worse, so mired in the sunk cost fallacy he could use it for a swimming pool.

HAH! I laughed out loud at that, it was that funny.

[Fyraltari]

I'll say it again: Redcloak is too broken a leader to help the goblins.

Agreed.

I think there have been A LOT OF EVIDENCE that the person who will lead the goblins will be Oona.

Disagreed. My money's on Jirix.

she isn't one to step into a fight for no reason.

I mean, technically "Recloak asked nicely" and "I thought Monster-san would enjoy eating them" are reasons, but come on.

ALSO, Redcloak's brother actually founded a city with goblins and humans co-existing, and Redcloak basically flushed it down the toilet.

https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Right-Eye

You didn't read Start of Darkness, eh?

I know who Right-Eye is. Your post was still factually wrong on almost every point.

To elaborate: Right eye lived (not founded, or at least that's not told) in a village (not a city) that had non-violent relationships with the neighboring human settlements (they don't live together) and it was "flushed down the toilet" by Xykon (not Redcloak whonhad made his mind to leave there in peace).

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll say it again: Redcloak is too broken a leader to help the goblins.

I think there have been A LOT OF EVIDENCE that the person who will lead the goblins will be Oona.

She's intelligent, she's politically knowledgeable, she knows that there is hypocrisy among the goblinoid races, and she isn't one to step into a fight for no reason.

Jyrix, on the other hand, is a charismatic leader and in Gobbotopia now, working on building the newly founded goblinoid nation.

While I think that Oona's a cool character, I don't think she's cosmopolitan enough to lead Gobbotopia. But maybe she is, maybe she has deep wells of leadership-fu, and we'll see her grow in that direction.

Interesting take on Oona, thanks for that.

I know who Right-Eye is. Your post was still factually wrong on almost every point.

+2

[JonahFalcon]

I'm not interested in chasing goalposts.

It's not a goalpost. You just said I'm completely wrong.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Redcloak is a teenager who's never aged. Right-eye ages, and ends up living in a village where all species co-exist, including humans.

Right-eye basically tells Redcloak that he never grew up, despite being elderly for a goblin (because the Mantle gave him youth and effective immortality).

He doesn't call Redcloak by his real name. He calls him Redcloak. Because he's Xykon's bitch.

{scrubbed}

[JonahFalcon]

Jyrix, on the other hand, is a charismatic leader and in Gobbotopia now, working on building the newly founded goblinoid nation.

While I think that Oona's a cool character, I don't think she's cosmopolitan enough to lead Gobbotopia. But maybe she is, maybe she has deep wells of leadership-fu, and we'll see her grow in that direction.

Interesting take on Oona, thanks for that.
+2

Jirix is charismatic, but that doesn't make him a good leader.

And we're not talking about a mayor of a city.

We're talking about a god's representative. Oona is not required to lead anyone.

Rich has been dropping hints about Oona every second she's in a panel. That makes me think she's far more important than she seems.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's not a goalpost. You just said I'm completely wrong.

Redcloak is a teenager who's never aged. Right-eye ages, and ends up living in a village where all species co-exist, including humans.

Right-eye basically tells Redcloak that he never grew up, despite being elderly for a goblin (because the Mantle gave him youth and effective immortality).

He doesn't call Redcloak by his real name. He calls him Redcloak. Because he's Xykon's bitch.

Spoiler: what you should have done

Show

S Xykon: I now have every confidence that you will act to serve my interests from now on, even when I'm not really around to supervise you. I know that you'll protect my phylactery if my body is destroyed.
Redcloak: You don't know that... I could wait until someone defeated you, and then—
Xykon: And then face the realization that if you destroy my phylactery, you killed Right-Eye over nothing. Nothing at all. And you don't have the balls for that.
Redcloak: I—I can raise him from the dead! I'm a Cleric, I just have to—
Xykon: Ah, but he'll know. He'll remember that you killed him to protect me, and he'll know you for what you are: My willing slave. And man, you REALLY don't have the balls for that.
Redcloak: What have I done?
Xykon: So therefore, you're just going to continue following me and doing whatever I order you to do. Because as long as you're loyal to me, I'll let you pretend this never happened. We'll just go about our daily business, and you can hide from the horrifying truth of what you've become — namely, a murderer who just killed his own baby brother in cold blood. And hey, we can both pretend that you don't really have any options about any of the despicable actions I ask you to take from here on out — rather than acknowledging that, like Right-Eye, you do in fact have a choice. But unlike Right-Eye there, you're too chicken**** to ever make it. You'll obey me forever now, because I give you an excuse for your inexcusable behavior. Now, are you going to stand there and tell me that I'm wrong?... Didn't think so. As a reward for your honesty there, I'll let you in on a little evil secret. What I said up there to Dorukan about overwhelming force? That's only part of Colonel Xykon's secret recipe for winning. [whispering] It's not just about raw power, it's also about how far you're willing to debase yourself before feeling bad. And me? I ripped off my own living flesh so that I wouldn't have to admit weakness. You're strictly little league compared to that. [normal voice] That right there? That's the difference between bonafide true Evil with a capital "E" and your whiny "evil, but for a good cause," crap. One gets to be the butch, and one gets to be the bitch — Bitch. S

Please put that into SoD spoiler brackets. From the Red S to the other red S.

[Metastachydium]

You didn't read Start of Darkness, eh?

I have the impression that whenever you read SoD, it must have been a long while ago.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

1. Right-Eye didn't found a city. He built/helped build a small village.
2. While it wasn't at war with the humans et al., and the circus scene demonstrates that these goblins were tolerated 'round there, the village was a goblins only settlement.
3. Most importantly, Redcloak had precious little to do with its destruction. He was about to abandon the Plan and get laid when Xykon turned up with a bunch of ogre mercenaries and ordered the goblins to follow him and destroy the village. The goblins, Right-Eye included, comélied.

[Spartan360]

Hey Jirix shouted a warning to Xykon when O-Chul attacked, that shows a massive increase in competence compared to many other characters in fiction.

[danielxcutter]

Groan.

Someone saying "hey, this guy maybe has a point" doesn't equate to "I support this guy and think everything he does is right and justified," despite all the strawmen claiming otherwise.

Oh my god so effing MOOD.

I'm wondering if Roy might try to talk to Redcloak (it'll still probably fail), since he has a better grasp on diplomacy finesse and is also just much more straightforward about it.

There's something to be said about the rule of three after all. Roy has good enough mental stats across the board to come up with better ideas, though his Diplomacy modifier probably isn't that high since it's not a Fighter class skill.

I know who Right-Eye is. Your post was still factually wrong on almost every point.

+3 and Flaming Burst to this!

[KorvinStarmast]

Jirix is charismatic, but that doesn't make him a good leader.

Recommend a review of what Charisma is all about in D&D. He is also, being a cleric, possessed of a good Wisdom score.

Wisdom is a desirable trait in a leaader.

[JonahFalcon]

I have the impression that whenever you read SoD, it must have been a long while ago.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

1. Right-Eye didn't found a city. He built/helped build a small village.
2. While it wasn't at war with the humans et al., and the circus scene demonstrates that these goblins were tolerated 'round there, the village was a goblins only settlement.
3. Most importantly, Redcloak had precious little to do with its destruction. He was about to abandon the Plan and get laid when Xykon turned up with a bunch of ogre mercenaries and ordered the goblins to follow him and destroy the village. The goblins, Right-Eye included, comélied.

1. Distinction without difference.
2. And was open to other races.
3. hahahaha What did Xykon say again?

[JonahFalcon]

Recommend a review of what Charisma is all about in D&D. He is also, being a cleric, possessed of a good Wisdom score.

Wisdom is a desirable trait in a leaader.

Oooh. I don't want to go all Godwin's Law on you, but charisma don't make a good leader. It just makes people do what you want them to.

[danielxcutter]

{Scrubbed}

[KorvinStarmast]

Oooh. I don't want to go all Godwin's Law on you, but charisma don't make a good leader. It just makes people do what you want them to.

You'd be surprised how often it does. (Granted, that can sometimes have a downside).

Gobbotopia is in the nation building / identity defining stage. A charismatic leader goes well at that stage of nation building, the technocrats usually come later ... it's been less than a year since the Azurites were expelled and the Goblinoids took over.

@Metastachydium: Laughed, I did.

[GKBeetle]

And I will playfully slap the first person to argue that Chaotic Good is an excuse to be a murderhobo.

Heck, I'd argue that chaotic good should be the less likely to be murder hobos in some instances. Like if there's a law that all goblins should be killed on sight, they'd be, "screw that. I'll only kill goblins who I see are doing something evil. If the goblins aren't hurting anybody, why should I care?"

[understatement]

Spoiler

Show

He was about to abandon the Plan and get laid when Xykon turned up

Meta, have I mentioned how your posts make me crack up? I should mention that.

[danielxcutter]

Meta, have I mentioned how your posts make me crack up? I should mention that.

I'd skimmed that line, but when I saw your post I read it again properly and giggled. So +1 to this.

[Metastachydium]

1. Distinction without difference.
2. And was open to other races.
3. hahahaha What did Xykon say again?

1. hroþila remarked that your statement was factually wrong on almost all counts, and you failed to see how. I just pointed it out.
2. [Citation needed.]
3. I recommend that you reread SoD if ypur impression is that Redcloak destroyed the village.

Meta, have I mentioned how your posts make me crack up? I should mention that.

I'm doing my best!

[Spartan360]

No reason to use Godwin's law, History is pretty filled with charismatic figures that were pretty bad rulers. {Scrubbed}

[JonahFalcon]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html

You're just a…a big phony, talking about stuff like equality and and justice to make yourself feel better about shoving them off a cliff! I don't think you really care about them -- you just feel bad about not caring!!

[Robots]

Someone saying "hey, this guy maybe has a point" doesn't equate to "I support this guy and think everything he does is right and justified," despite all the strawmen claiming otherwise.

Exactly, yo.

As low as RC's sunk, he has a point about how the goblins were given the short end of the stick by an uncaring god. I think it's real dumb how people refuse to acknowledge someone's legitimate points just because they hate that person. (A statement that applies to real life, too. But not about anyone here, that's not what I'm implying and I don't want it to come across as me implying that.)

[hroþila]

I would also suggest that, in a discussion about the prosperity of goblinoid societies under the current status quo, the difference between a small village that was just scraping by and a city is very important.

[Telenil]

They could have asked Redcloak or any of the goblins at any point what their motivation really was, but can you blame them for neglecting to do so, or even consider doing so? If they’d stopped to ask, they would have discovered Redcloak is double crossing Xykon and this could have been solved differently by now.

Could it? How many goblins knew Redcloak's secret plan, and how many of these would have revealed it if asked? Redcloak only spoke it out loud because he had decided to kill or destroy everyone in the room.

I do not think it’s even fair for Durkon to chastise Roy at all here. It’s not like he ever asked until just now, and this was the first chance they had where Xykon wasn’t also present and trigger-happy.

I agree. Did we ever get a goblin emissary? I don't recall any. Also, Redcloak tried to Implode Durkon during the negotiation, and there is every reason to believe he would have done the same back when the PCs didn't even know about his plans.

[danielxcutter]

No reason to use Godwin's law, History is pretty filled with charismatic figures that were pretty bad rulers. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Well yes, but I don't see how making it more likely people listen to you wouldn't help you be a competent leader.

---

Also I get what the last panel is referencing:

“To err is human, to repent divine; to persist devilish.”