OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

[JonahFalcon]

Exactly, yo.

As low as RC's sunk, he has a point about how the goblins were given the short end of the stick by an uncaring god. I think it's real dumb how people refuse to acknowledge someone's legitimate points just because they hate that person. (A statement that applies to real life, too. But not about anyone here, that's not what I'm implying and I don't want it to come across as me implying that.)

Yet this same goblin is willing to kill real goblins on the off-chance the new world will have ANY goblins. AND is unwilling to believe that The Dark One won't survive the next world either.

Redcloak: How many goblin lives have you snuffed out? Personally?
Durkon: Na as many as ye.

[KorvinStarmast]

No reason to use Godwin's law, History is pretty filled with charismatic figures that were pretty bad rulers. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Nice inversion of post hoc, ergo propter hoc in the case of Jirix, who has barely begun.

And maybe glass half empty is not the only way too approach this? Here's the logic structure you have fallen for: some charismatic leaders have turned out badly, therefore all charismatic leaders shall turn out badly.

Some Charismatic leaders are excellent leaders/rulers - it is not an either or thing. {Scrubbed}

[Spartan360]

Eh, It's not like the Goblins are in a unique position of getting bad hands from the gods, They just made the loudest complaint.

[Metastachydium]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1212.html

You're just a…a big phony, talking about stuff like equality and and justice to make yourself feel better about shoving them off a cliff! I don't think you really care about them -- you just feel bad about not caring!!

That's just, like, Minrah's opinion, though (who doesn't know jack about Redcloak (who, mind you, is not exactly an exemplary fellow, to put it mildly, but has shown clear signs that he does, in fact, care)).

Yet this same goblin is willing to kill real goblins on the off-chance the new world will have ANY goblins. AND is unwilling to believe that The Dark One won't survive the next world either.

Why should he believe that?

[Cicciograna]

I would also suggest that, in a discussion about the prosperity of goblinoid societies under the current status quo, the difference between a small village that was just scraping by and a city is very important.

To be honest, the place where RC found the hobbos wasn't really a small village, it was a city capable of sustaining 88 legions of ~300 hobbos each.

But clearly your point still stands, and besides, the fact that they had such a settlment doesn't say anything about the nature of their treatment at the hands of other races.

[Spartan360]

Nice inversion of post hoc, ergo propter hoc in the case of Jirix, who has barely begun.

And maybe glass half empty is not the only way too approach this? Here's the logic structure you have fallen for: some charismatic leaders have turned out bdaly, therefore all charismatic leaders shall turn out badly.

Some Charismatic leaders are excellent leaders/rulers - it is not an either or thing. For two examples I'll offer George Washington, and Charlemagne - but we may be straying from the topic, so I'll stop there.

I wasn't saying anything about leaders per say, I just stated that he could use something else than Godwin's law.

[Robots]

Yet this same goblin is willing to kill real goblins on the off-chance the new world will have ANY goblins. AND is unwilling to believe that The Dark One won't survive the next world either.

I didn't say RC was right. I said he had a point. I don't think what RC is doing is good, and I know he is wrong and deluded. I don't understand how you took my statement as endorsement of RC's villainy.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's just, like, Minrah's opinion, though (who doesn't know jack about Redcloak (who, mind you, is not exactly an exemplary fellow, to put it mildly, but has shown clear signs that he does, in fact, care)).

You might say that he cares too much, to a certain extent, such that it often blinds him to all else. (I might be engaging in hyperbole there, but he is very dedicated to the cause and the Plan, for all of his imperfections as an individual)

For Spartan:

I wasn't saying anything about leaders per say, I just stated that he could use something else than Godwin's law.

Ah, gotcha, I mistakenly took your post as a Falcon bandwagon jump - mi dispiace.

[JonahFalcon]

That's just, like, Minrah's opinion, though (who doesn't know jack about Redcloak (who, mind you, is not exactly an exemplary fellow, to put it mildly, but has shown clear signs that he does, in fact, care)).



Why should he believe that?

BECAUSE THOR SENT HIS OWN EMISSARY, AND HE ATTACKED HIM UNDER A FLAG OF TRUCE?

Also, ever heard of sunk cost fallacy?

Redcloak is swimming in it. He refuses to believe BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE HE WAS WRONG AND RIGHT-EYE WAS RIGHT.

[danielxcutter]

Exactly, yo.

As low as RC's sunk, he has a point about how the goblins were given the short end of the stick by an uncaring god. I think it's real dumb how people refuse to acknowledge someone's legitimate points just because they hate that person. (A statement that applies to real life, too. But not about anyone here, that's not what I'm implying and I don't want it to come across as me implying that.)

I don't think it's even about hating someone - it's because Redcloak is a villain, and thus by extension the goblins. An "Other" who don’t need to apply our moral and ethical standards to. Someone we can feel superior to.

I would also suggest that, in a discussion about the prosperity of goblinoid societies under the current status quo, the difference between a small village that was just scraping by and a city is very important.

Also +1 to this.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, ever heard of sunk cost fallacy?

Nope, nobody on these forums has ever heard of that nor even discussed it.


PS: shouting is not necessary.
(Netiquette 101: using bold/all caps comes across as shouting in on line text based discourse)

[JonahFalcon]

the difference between a small village that was just scraping by and a city is very important.

Yes. It's far more impressive for a small village to do it.

Take it from someone who was born, bred, and lives in New York City, and who has family in the sticks.

Diversity in a big city is easy.

Diversity in a small town? Hoo-boy, much more difficult.

[danielxcutter]

{Scrubbed}

[Spartan360]

I have to say that I more agree with Minrah there, while I don't vision him as some goblin slaughtering idiot, He seems very apathetic and refuses to even think about the Teamkilling he does whether it's for the plan or they might hinder him in some capacity, small or large.

[JonahFalcon]

Final prediction: Redcloak is killed or cast off, Oona becomes the Dark One's emissary.

[danielxcutter]

I have to say that I more agree with Minrah there, while I don't vision him as some goblin slaughtering idiot, He seems very apathetic and refuses to even think about the Teamkilling he does whether it's for the plan or they might hinder him in some capacity, small or large.

It's partly right, partly wrong IMO.

He does care - but he also cares about his sunken cost fallacy and being right.

He hasn't had another "crucible" moment where he breaks down and has to choose what's the most important thing to him. I think he's due for one at the end of this book, though.

[Metastachydium]

BECAUSE THOR SENT HIS OWN EMISSARY, AND HE ATTACKED HIM UNDER A FLAG OF TRUCE?

Redcloak believes (and he is, of course in part wrong) that Thor is among the bunch who deliberately screwed over his race. Why should he trust Thor (or better yet, someone who claims to speak for him)?

He does care - but he also cares about his sunken cost fallacy and being right.

He hasn't had another "crucible" moment where he breaks down and has to choose what's the most important thing to him. I think he's due for one at the end of this book, though.

In other news, I wholly agree with this.

[danielxcutter]

Also "attacked under a flag of truce" is literally how TDO died.

[KorvinStarmast]

Final prediction: Redcloak is killed or cast off, Oona becomes the Dark One's emissary.

It would be a wardrobe upgrade for her; I think she'd wear it well.

[Spartan360]

Not sure, How much does Redcloak believe in alignments?

[Metastachydium]

Final prediction: Redcloak is killed or cast off, Oona becomes the Dark One's emissary.

(A minor nitpick of sorts: I don't really see her gaining 17 levels of cleric 'til the endgame.)

[bunsen_h]

"Kill or capture" has become "capture" as a mission statement regarding Redcloak. (Or so Durkon is trying to persuade Roy). With Xykon, it's Kill/Destroy/etc.

Roy, as the leader, needs to articulate this to the rest of the party. Not on altruistic grounds - remember V and Belkar are around, that sell is a bit too big of an ask - but on save the world grounds. (Which the rest of the party bought into back in Book 3 when he tore up their contracts).

It was right for Durkon to raise the issue privately, with Roy, to avoid undermining him as leader. But if Roy then tells the rest of the party, aloud, it may let Serini have second thoughts if she's also able to hear too.

[Cicciograna]

I think he's due for one at the end of this book, though.

Eh, I don't really see it coming, to be honest. He's too deep in, and too entrenched in his own convinctions to be swayed: heck, he actually had the opportunity, for once, to actually talk and present his ideas. He instead decided to act based on tactical considerations that didn't seem to have any opening to the fact that the other side might be, for once, willing to actually cooperate.

[Telenil]

I don't think it's even about hating someone - it's because Redcloak is a villain, and thus by extension the goblins. An "Other" who don’t need to apply our moral and ethical standards to.

Speaking for myself here: I agree that Redcloak has a point, in that goblins should be given a chance to change their lifestyle if they want to, but I fail to see how it makes any difference in that situation. My perspective is that unless and until his motivations can be used to drive a wedge between the goblins and Xykon, that's only relevant for a time after Xykon and Redcloak himself have been defeated - along with any goblinoid attempting to defend them.
It's not that they are Others, it is that they are enemies in a battle with very high stakes.

[Metastachydium]

Not sure, How much does Redcloak believe in alignments?

He seems to think they are kind of arbitrary and relative.

[Some]

You're just a…a big phony, talking about stuff like equality and and justice to make yourself feel better about shoving them off a cliff! I don't think you really care about them -- you just feel bad about not caring!!

That seemed apt.

Redcloak's kinda tragic in that there are hints of concern for goodness in him, but he's mostly just really evil. When he reaches for a justification, there's a weird mix of his dominant evil nature just rationalizing to service his own ego, tinged with what seems like a bit of genuine truth.

As we saw at the Godmoot, Fenris, who created the goblins, is a pretty darn evil character. It then makes sense that the goblins inherited a lot of evil in their basic nature. Though some part of Redcloak seems to be trying to push him toward doing some good.. I kinda wonder if this might be a story where a deeply evil character ends up finding a new path?

Though we probably ought to remember that, in-universe, other characters have hoped for the same only to be proven horribly wrong.

[Thermophille]

Final prediction: Redcloak is killed or cast off, Oona becomes the Dark One's emissary.

My prediction: We find out more about why TDO is being antisocial, he gets convinced first, and by divine revelation tells Redcloak to help him get levrage via closing the gates instead of slaughtering gods.

Redcloak has a massive breakdown because of everything he's done, and after fixing the gates steps down to let Jirix take over.

[Spartan360]

Depends, sometimes it's more fitting to view enemies as others. For example when the hobgoblins came to attack Azure City, I think it's far more sensible to view them as someone you can have your mages carpet bomb instead of caring enough to attempt to capture some of them alive during the battle.

[Jason]

Also "attacked under a flag of truce" is literally how TDO died.

No, that's what Redcloak believes happened, and it would probably be a mistake to take that story at face value.

Redcloak also believes the Dark One was a merciful and just ruler to all goblinkind, and that he had no intention of using the massive hoard he gathered to actually fight anyone. "It was just so the humans would listen to reason."

[Empiar93]

Won’t try and reply to everyone individually, but yeah I was wrong in saying Redcloak’s treachery would be revealed.
It would be more accurate to say: they could have discussed bumping off Xykon to help Redcloak achieve his goals, had they had a chance to talk to Redcloak alone. After all, that’s the conclusion Roy has already reached with his’s sister’s advice.
I’ll also adjust my question accordingly: how the hell should Roy or anyone have known, without even a chance of a discussion, that Redcloak has an agenda that has barely anything to do with Xykon? Not especially fair to judge him (or anyone else) for answering the goblin’s show of force in kind. The only interaction they had outside DCF was when Xykon DECLARED WAR. And they know what the invading army was seeking: the gate which contains a fantasy nuke.