OOTS #1233 - The Discussion Thread

[arimareiji]

Hey, weren't you leaning against Redcloak and TDO around the last comic or so? I thought people changing their mind on the Internet was metaphysically impossible!

Indeed. But sometimes people can go beyond their 23 pairs of chromosomes, to be Roy or Durkon. (^_^)b

[understatement]

No-no-no. There are many wrongs that can be righted. But - let's see two villages, a goblin one and a human one. They both have bad lands, and they both resort to robbing and slavery. Why do goblin village get a pass about it and human village does not?

If we just count amount of persons living in bad lands, then goblins would be outnumbered by non-goblins (because, for example, Western Continent exists). But you make a big deal of specific goblin suffering and not of suffering of other sentinent beings. Why?

"But what about the other groups/races?"

Oh no.

[Telenil]

I disagree. I think the philosophy is "if an entire sentient race has been forced into poverty that is a wrong that should be righted, regardless of how evil they and their leaders are."

No. Most definitely not "regardless" of how evil the leaders are. I'll take a Godwin point if I must, but one of the worst disasters of the XXth century was allowed to happen because the evil dictator had a point when he said that his people had been needlessly humiliated. By the time good people realised what was really going on, it was too late to stop it.

[CountDVB]

But what do you even give them at this point? Redcloack agreed that they had their own territory and rules and clerics and god and cities. Sure you can argue they had a harder road getting there and relations are still really tense with the rest of the world even if you don't take sacking a city and enslaving its populace into account, but that's a rather mundane problem on a national level and nothing Redcloak is trying to do would fix it anyways. So honestly, what does righting this wrong even mean right now.

Well, telling the rest of the sentient mortals not to kill goblins just because they are goblins. They're not inhererently evil; that they are, in fact, just like you. Twelve Gods dropped the ball with the Azurites there.

But with Redcloak, problem is that not sure if anything would change his mind. He bet everything on his plan and he is in way over his head, which is why Xykon is pretty confident. He has seen Redcloak at his lowest and knows he is still ultimately too much of a coward to deviate from the plan. Redcloak can convince himself that he is the puppetmaster all he likes, but he's still pretty much shackled with Xykon and chooses to be.

[Spartan360]

A question though, Who's going to fix the right and wrong towards the matter of Hobgoblin's attacking and conquering Azure City while slaying hundreds of it's people?

[Ionathus]

No-no-no. There are many wrongs that can be righted. But - let's see two villages, a goblin one and a human one. They both have bad lands, and they both resort to robbing and slavery. Why do goblin village get a pass about it and human village does not?

If we just count amount of persons living in bad lands, then goblins would be outnumbered by non-goblins (because, for example, Western Continent exists). But you make a big deal of specific goblin suffering and not of suffering of other sentinent beings. Why?

What makes you think anyone is giving the goblin village a pass?

There is a difference between understanding something and endorsing it. Recognizing the goblins got dealt a bad hand does not make the sacking of Azure City an objective Good. The Stickworld (and ours, too) isn't a binary Right-Or-Wrong like that.

Yes, the goblins have been warlike and hostile to PC races, but that doesn't nullify their bad starting situation. Two wrongs don't make a right, but they also don't cancel out a different wrong.

You can oppose someone and still understand their motivation.

Hell, you can oppose someone and agree with their motivation.

[Lethologica]

Mostly it's "so the invisible Serini lurking nearby won't overhear their discussion and realize that Roy is a reasonable person she should ally with before she attacks them in the next comic."

I've seen a few comments in this direction and wanted to point out that Serini doesn't actually care. The Order is personally responsible for the destruction of multiple Gates and no amount of talking is going to convince her that they're her chaps for keeping the last one intact. And nothing about this conversation is relevant to that consideration anyway.

Sorry, but I really cannot empathise with this message.

It seems like the main philosophy of this strip is: "If you are dealt a bad land, then you are free to take the stuff from more rich lands".

That's exactly the sort of 'wrong about how to make it right' thinking that Durkon explicitly rejects, so no, that's not the main philosophy of this strip.

You are quick to shame Roy for not attempting the parley, but why are you not shaming the goblins who did not attempt to parley with him?

They're not here, for starters.

There are no such thing as "eternaly bad land" in our world - some nations managed to transform a desert into a garden. But it is easy to blame the external circumstances instead of trying to improve them.

Leaving aside that there absolutely is 'eternally bad land' in the real world in every practical sense, and that the goblins may not know how to green their desert, it is fair to point out that the comic is using the concept of 'bad land' in a fairly shallow way. But you're also making a false dichotomy there - it's far from clear that goblins have generally only chosen one of those two things to do. (The Supreme Leader's comments about infrastructure come to mind.)

[danielxcutter]

What makes you think anyone is giving the goblin village a pass?

There is a difference between understanding something and endorsing it. Recognizing the goblins got dealt a bad hand does not make the sacking of Azure City an objective Good. The Stickworld (and ours, too) isn't a binary Right-Or-Wrong like that.

Yes, the goblins have been warlike and hostile to PC races, but that doesn't nullify their bad starting situation. Two wrongs don't make a right, but they also don't cancel out a different wrong.

You can oppose someone and still understand their motivation.

Hell, you can oppose someone and agree with their motivation.

Preach, brother.

[Dragonus45]

Well, telling the rest of the sentient mortals not to kill goblins just because they are goblins. They're not inhererently evil; that they are, in fact, just like you. Twelve Gods dropped the ball with the Azurites there.

Even that much of a divine commandment may well be beyond them to get a consensus on outside of desperate circumstances involving the snarl.

But with Redcloak, problem is that not sure if anything would change his mind. He bet everything on his plan and he is in way over his head, which is why Xykon is pretty confident. He has seen Redcloak at his lowest and knows he is still ultimately too much of a coward to deviate from the plan. Redcloak can convince himself that he is the puppetmaster all he likes, but he's still pretty much shackled with Xykon and chooses to be.

Oh yea Redcloak is just a mess, but I mean in this larger context of deciding he is right and the goblins should get something to make up for having a rough start, but like what do you even give them they don't already have. Not everyone gets an equally easy time of things and it's well past the point where you could give them a leg up somehow to equalize. The best possible bet was the offer to legitimize their hold on Gobotopia really. Which might still wind up on the table, but then I have to wonder how long they go before they pick a fight and lose it again.

[Thermophille]

As someone who just read the relevant side story, do we know what happened to the previous Supreme Leader? We know he stepped down when he saw how powerful Redcloak is, but nothing after that.

[Spartan360]

But in what way is it a wrong that the goblins started with a bad starting area. While their motivations are understandable, i doubt that anyone affected by their attacks would be happy to hear that as a defense or excuse.

[Spartan360]

As someone who just read the relevant side story, do we know what happened to the previous Supreme Leader? We know he stepped down when he saw how powerful Redcloak is, but nothing after that.

Nope, he hasn't been mentioned at all, surprisingly not even O-chul.

[Thermophille]

Nope, he hasn't been mentioned at all, surprisingly not even O-chul.

So, I'm just spitballing here...

Spoiler: How the Paladin Got His Scar.

Show

We know the previous Supreme Leader was a cleric. We know he was a capable and competent leader, since he did a lot to restructure hobgoblin society, and was willing to work under abusive superiors for years to get to that point.

Jirix is a cleric. He's charismatic, was the first choice to become leader of Gobtopia, and seems like he at least knew Redcloak beforehand.

This has probably been suggested before, though.

[Ionathus]

I've seen a few comments in this direction and wanted to point out that Serini doesn't actually care. The Order is personally responsible for the destruction of multiple Gates and no amount of talking is going to convince her that they're her chaps for keeping the last one intact. And nothing about this conversation is relevant to that consideration anyway.

Good point. I think it might resonate with her a bit given her sympathetic attitude towards trolls, but I'd believe it if she said "aww, they care about goblins, too! Anyway..." *ambush*

Preach, brother.

Haha thank you! I am playing a cleric in my current campaign...

Even that much of a divine commandment may well be beyond them to get a consensus on outside of desperate circumstances involving the snarl.

Given that Thor's been able to talk directly to Durkon without consensus, I imagine each god would be free to spread the word amongst their followers. You'd at least hope the Good gods would do so, and the Neutral or even Evil ones might also if it's clear keeping goblinoids healthy means TDO's purple quiddity survives long-term.

So, I'm just spitballing here...

I can't remember where, but I feel like the Giant confirmed that Jirix is not the former Supreme Leader. Maybe the War & XPs Don't Split the Party commentary? (edited: Jirix wasn't a named character until DStP, but I think I remember Rich saying "I imagined him as that final hobgoblin that joined Redcloak in the throne room against the Sapphire Guard Ghost-Martyrs, who was then resurrected and promoted.")

[Jason]

No. Most definitely not "regardless" of how evil the leaders are. I'll take a Godwin point if I must, but one of the worst disasters of the XXth century was allowed to happen because the evil dictator had a point when he said that his people had been needlessly humiliated. By the time good people realised what was really going on, it was too late to stop it.

And the winners in that particular conflict did not then exterminate the nation that had been the aggressors. Instead they destroyed the evil leadership structure and then did their best to restore the nation to an even footing with its peers. And it basically worked. The aggressor nation is today one of the most prosperous and peaceful on the planet.

I am not "for" Redcloak or the Dark One. Redcloak is a tragic villain, but he is undoubtedly a villain, and he deserves what's coming to him. His villainy and ruthlessness is as much a result of his own choices as it is the terrible things that happened to him that he had no control over.
The Dark One hasn't actually appeared "on stage" yet, so he's still something of a cipher, but his refusing to ever speak directly to his High Priest who has served him faithfully for decades is a hint that I'm probably not going to like him either.

The goblin race as a whole is a different matter.

[Spartan360]

So, I'm just spitballing here...

We know the previous Supreme Leader was a cleric. We know he was a capable and competent leader, since he did a lot to restructure hobgoblin society, and was willing to work under abusive superiors for years to get to that point.

Jirix is a cleric. He's charismatic, was the first choice to become leader of Gobtopia, and seems like he at least knew Redcloak beforehand.

This has probably been suggested before, though.

I get where you are coming from but I think Goblinoid lifespans might make that theory a bit difficult.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: a reminder to everyone to please take extra care to restrict your comments to the explicitly fictional universe of OOTS and not let them bleed out into the real world.

[Telenil]

@Jason
Exactly. As I've said in an other thread, you win the war, then you're fair - in that order.

[Jason]

Well, telling the rest of the sentient mortals not to kill goblins just because they are goblins. They're not inhererently evil; that they are, in fact, just like you. Twelve Gods dropped the ball with the Azurites there.

Hinjo in How the Paladin Got His Scar makes a speech about how the Twelve Gods have taught the Azurites to respect all life, including hobgoblins.

[woweedd]

I forgot Durkon could DO snark. Nice to see the man once described as "surly and unpleasant" come to the forefront once more. And, while I totally get Roy's POV, given that, as far as I can recall, the goblins he killed were serving Xykon as soldiers...Yeah, now that i think about it, he maybe should have tried talking to more of them. Or, at least, not killing them in their sleep.

[LuPuWei]

It's a good conversation. Some of the events in Origin of PCs might spring to mind here - Roy was somewhat better about "seeing the adversary's point of view" there.

Exactly this. At least Roy has some history of being better... just not with the Goblins in Dorukan's dungeon, that's for sure...

[danielxcutter]

So, I'm just spitballing here...

Spoiler: How the Paladin Got His Scar

Show

We know the previous Supreme Leader was a cleric. We know he was a capable and competent leader, since he did a lot to restructure hobgoblin society, and was willing to work under abusive superiors for years to get to that point.

Jirix is a cleric. He's charismatic, was the first choice to become leader of Gobtopia, and seems like he at least knew Redcloak beforehand.

This has probably been suggested before, though.

Only half a gazillion times, don't worry.

Good point. I think it might resonate with her a bit given her sympathetic attitude towards trolls, but I'd believe it if she said "aww, they care about goblins, too! Anyway..." *ambush*

Sounds about right. I can see where she's coming from, but she's infuriatingly narrow-minded in a way.

Haha thank you! I am playing a cleric in my current campaign...

What a coincidence, so am I! Well, a multiclass cleric/crusader who plans to enter a refluffed Ruby Knight Vindicator, but potato potatoe I guess.

Given that Thor's been able to talk directly to Durkon without consensus, I imagine each god would be free to spread the word amongst their followers. You'd at least hope the Good gods would do so, and the Neutral or even Evil ones might also if it's clear keeping goblinoids healthy means TDO's purple quiddity survives long-term.

Heck, Loki used Hilgya's prayers about where Durkon was to guide her into stopping Hel's plan.

I can't remember where, but I feel like the Giant confirmed that Jirix is not the former Supreme Leader. Maybe the War & XPs commentary?

Huh.

And the winners in that particular conflict did not then exterminate the nation that had been the aggressors. Instead they destroyed the evil leadership structure and then did their best to restore the nation to an even footing with its peers. And it basically worked. The aggressor nation is today one of the most prosperous and peaceful on the planet.

I am not "for" Redcloak or the Dark One. Redcloak is a tragic villain, but he is undoubtedly a villain, and he deserves what's coming to him. His villainy and ruthlessness is as much a result of his own choices as it is the terrible things that happened to him that he had no control over.
The Dark One hasn't actually appeared "on stage" yet, so he's still something of a cipher, but his refusing to ever speak directly to his High Priest who has served him faithfully for decades is a hint that I'm probably not going to like him either.

The goblin race as a whole is a different matter.

We have our disagreements, but we firmly agree that goblinkind as a whole did not deserve to get as massively shafted as they've been so far I believe. And that Redcloak arguably got shafted even harder than average.

[Ionathus]

Exactly this. At least Roy has some history of being better... just not with the Goblins in Dorukan's dungeon, that's for sure...

I mean, I've said this before, but I still believe that had O-Chul been in Roy's place when Miko fell, he might've actually been able to talk her down from attacking and going berserk. We've seen O-Chul demonstrate more patience, diplomacy, and empathy than Roy, while Roy opts for snark and swordplay, and had specific bad blood with Miko to boot.

But that isn't an indictment of Roy! He can still definitely be Lawful Good without being the paragon of diplomacy like O-Chul. I think there's a similar thing going on here, where Roy has behaved less than perfectly with regard to goblins, and he acknowledges that shortcoming, but there's no need for him to be shamed or condemned for it. Life is about making mistakes, learning, and doing better next time. If the whole Stickworld were O-Chuls then they would all live in harmony forever...but it wouldn't make for a good story!

[CountDVB]

Even that much of a divine commandment may well be beyond them to get a consensus on outside of desperate circumstances involving the snarl.

Oh yea Redcloak is just a mess, but I mean in this larger context of deciding he is right and the goblins should get something to make up for having a rough start, but like what do you even give them they don't already have. Not everyone gets an equally easy time of things and it's well past the point where you could give them a leg up somehow to equalize. The best possible bet was the offer to legitimize their hold on Gobotopia really. Which might still wind up on the table, but then I have to wonder how long they go before they pick a fight and lose it again.

The deities should do the limited good they can do after creating the world, like at least telling their clerics and paladins, the people who do maintain a sacred bond with them and given how clerics and paladins have prominent influence in major civilization, it will be enough to influence.

Making the genuine honest effort is what matters as we saw with the forces of Good.

After that, its up to the mortals.

[Lethologica]

Oh yea Redcloak is just a mess, but I mean in this larger context of deciding he is right and the goblins should get something to make up for having a rough start, but like what do you even give them they don't already have. Not everyone gets an equally easy time of things and it's well past the point where you could give them a leg up somehow to equalize. The best possible bet was the offer to legitimize their hold on Gobotopia really. Which might still wind up on the table, but then I have to wonder how long they go before they pick a fight and lose it again.

Durkon brought this up with Redcloak, and so did Thor with Durkon. If the answer to what to do about this sort of situation were obvious, there'd be a lot less need for this sort of story. But the fact that characters are asking the same question shows that the author has thought about how to build towards an answer.

[b_jonas]

The first panels remind me of this Star Trek question over on Sci Fi SE: “Does Picard ever deny anyone permission to speak freely?”. Roy is, of course, more referring to #920 seventh panel, when Vaarsuvius wanted to talk to him right in the middle of a battle. That, and perhaps some of Elan's remarks.

[Spartan360]

Perhaps they should get Elan's 18+ charisma to have a conversation with Redcloak.

[arimareiji]

Exactly this. At least Roy has some history of being better... just not with the Goblins in Dorukan's dungeon, that's for sure...

*drags up old crap, no good reason other than this reminded me*

I wonder if there's a non-zero chance Elan will ever consider how wrong it was to self-destruct a dungeon full of sentient beings for lulz, beyond the semipology of (emphasis added)
"I used to think taking things seriously meant you had to be a huge downer all the time -- so I did stuff based on whether it was cool or funny in the moment, not whether it helped anyone. I think I probably made everything harder for the rest of you when I really didn't need to. Probably not enough to justify trying to stab me, but still. Sorry about that."

[Arathorne]

Yeah I think this is really important. I'm expecting Serini to be invisible around them before she attacks, and if she overheard this conversation she might be much more willing to work with them, given her monstrous sympathies.

having not read all 8 pages of posts yet, the possibility of Serini to overhear this conversation is moot as they were directly talking mind to mind and not out loud. There is now way for her to overhear this type of communication.

On a side note, and after seeing over 30 pages of commentary on the #1232, I am not sure why people tend to be so over analytical on the strip and the message. This is Mr Burlew's story to tell. How he relates it to us is his choice as any author of a story would do. We should not really be judging until the story is finished at least. Personally I think judging his story is just plain wrong in any case as it is the story he wants to relate to us and the world. It is his to tell as he sees fit to tell. Arguing back and forth over justice for goblins is just silly in my perception.

[Thermophille]

*drags up old crap, no good reason other than this reminded me*

I wonder if there's a non-zero chance Elan will ever consider how wrong it was to self-destruct a dungeon full of sentient beings for lulz, beyond the semipology of (emphasis added)
"I used to think taking things seriously meant you had to be a huge downer all the time -- so I did stuff based on whether it was cool or funny in the moment, not whether it helped anyone. I think I probably made everything harder for the rest of you when I really didn't need to. Probably not enough to justify trying to stab me, but still. Sorry about that."

It's not like he had no idea what he was doing, either. He clearly knew it was a self-destruct button.