Concerns About the Progressions of the Goblin Plot (@Rich)

[Ionathus]

Certainly Abrams didn't intend her to be a nobody, but I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Rian Johnson was going for, specifically because he didn't want the Force to be an aristocracy.

That was one of my favorite parts of TLJ. Especially after how much time TFA spent fawning over the original trilogy & characters, Rey being a nobody really felt like an opportunity to put actual, literal fresh blood into the roster of Jedi.

Plus, everybody knows that "you're Palpatine's grandchild" has been a played-out plot twist ever since its incredibly successful and critically-acclaimed origin in the Jedi Prince series.

[Peelee]

And let's be honest: Abrams definitely intended Rey to be related to someone important from the beginning, but he definitely hadn't decided on who when he made TFA.

Yes, but screw that hack.

And it's not supposed to be a big deal.

Aye. He was a nobody farm boy, his dad's only meaningful contributions were a sword and a friend.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, but screw that hack.

Aye. He was a nobody farm boy, his dad's only meaningful contributions were a sword and a friend.

And an ennemy with a breathing problem.

[Ruck]

Certainly Abrams didn't intend her to be a nobody, but I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Rian Johnson was going for, specifically because he didn't want the Force to be an aristocracy.

Ah, so Rey is O-Chul?

[TRH]

Ah, so Rey is O-Chul?

"I was a Scavenger for 20 years before multiclassing to Jedi! Wisdom seemed like a safe dump stat at the time!"

[Peelee]

Ah, so Rey is O-Chul?

O-Chul Skywalker.

[hungrycrow]

That was one of my favorite parts of TLJ. Especially after how much time TFA spent fawning over the original trilogy & characters, Rey being a nobody really felt like an opportunity to put actual, literal fresh blood into the roster of Jedi.

Plus, everybody knows that "you're Palpatine's grandchild" has been a played-out plot twist ever since its incredibly successful and critically-acclaimed origin in the Jedi Prince series.

Her being a nobody was definitely better than any of the other possiblities. But I don't think the reveal was handled very well. Rey was never concerned with who her parents were, just where they went; she was old enough when they left to know her dad wasn't secretly Luke Skywalker. It was the fans that were making wild speculations on who they might be. So when Kylo makes his rant about Rey being a nobody, it feels like it's directed at the viewer.

[hroþila]

I thought that scene was an obvious homage to Spaceballs

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[Peelee]

Her being a nobody was definitely better than any of the other possiblities. But I don't think the reveal was handled very well. Rey was never concerned with who her parents were, just where they went; she was old enough when they left to know her dad wasn't secretly Luke Skywalker. It was the fans that were making wild speculations on who they might be. So when Kylo makes his rant about Rey being a nobody, it feels like it's directed at the viewer.

Aye. I loved the concept but the execution was lacking.

[Metastachydium]

Spoiler: Collapsed

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Yep, it's "rumors" there. So between Origin and DCF they journeyed to the Redmountain Hills and confirmed the rumors? Or you might view it as a retcon, since DCF actually came first.

Well, you seem to be assuming that this is an unusual situation and that goblins don't usually behave like this. What is the evidence that this is unusual behavior for goblins?

I see no problem with using DCF as evidence in a debate, as long as everyone keeps in mind that it's the earliest versions of many things, and therefore open to "early installment weirdness". I still laugh at those early comics.

Yes, all dwarves get a bonus to attack goblins, and yet it's Durkon who was first willing to sit down with Redcloak and discuss what his beef is, and who points out to Thor that they may have gotten a raw deal. Character development!

Spoilers from Origin of PC's.

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Roy's party complains, yes, but they don't actually attack any of the orcs. Northtown doesn't ask Roy's party to avenge the death of the adventurers who they hired earlier to deal with the orc problem, or bring the orcs who killed them to justice. The orcs depart in peace.
Everything points to a community that is generally fine with living in peace with orcs. If anything, the story shows that adventurers are sometimes a bunch of bigoted jerks, and hints that might be why nobody cares if they don't come back from a job you hired them to do.

This is all spoilers from How the Paladin Got his Scar and Start of Darkness.

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I disagree. We know from How the Paladin Got his Scar that one particular commander of the Sapphire Guard, Gin-Jun, was prejudiced against goblins and hobgoblins, not "Azurites". Assuming all Azurites share Gin-Jun's views would itself be prejudicial.
In fact, Hinjo says "Our gods teach us that life is sacred and that individual people-even from different cultures-have inherent dignity that should be respected. They don't mention hobgoblins per se, but as Azurites we believe that this extends as clearly to nonhumans as it does to other human races." In other words, "Azurites" are taught by their religion to not be prejudiced.

I disagree there too. The Sapphire Guard is interested in stopping threats to the gate in Azure City, not starting wars. Gin-Jun also wanted to wipe goblins out, but when the Guard realized that was his motivation they refused to back him up.


Sounds like speculation to me. Building a fortress in a swamp and regularly posting troops there is not an insignificant expense. It seems unlikely they would do it if there was not an actual threat in the swamp.

Redcloak says they have strictly been on the defensive. Maybe he's speaking the truth, maybe he's letting his anti-human/Azurite/Paladin prejudices get the better of his judgement.

I'll accept an IOU then.

No, I suggested that humans and other demi-humans might regularly attack goblins because goblins commonly raid human and demi-human villages. It is speculation, yes, but I don't see anything that contradicts that possibility, and the other argument commonly put forward (humans and demi-humans are just plain racist against goblins for no good reason) is also speculation.

Except that Redcloak seems to think that goblins were forced by the gods into raiding other races ("[The gods] gave their new creations [the humanoid races] every geographic, economic, and even physical disadvantage they could think of to ensure...they would act as raiders and brigands"). That would seem to indicate that it is commonplace to encounter goblins raiding human and demi-human villages.

(Two things.
1. NOw you're the proud owner of an IOU for cookies.
2. I disagree with mostly everything you said, but while I was off conducting an experiment down in the gaming section, the thread got beautifully derailed, and I'd hate to rerail it, so I won't go into details right now.)

Ah, so Rey is O-Chul?

Impossible. All the hair on her head is in the wrong place.

[woweedd]

Her being a nobody was definitely better than any of the other possiblities. But I don't think the reveal was handled very well. Rey was never concerned with who her parents were, just where they went; she was old enough when they left to know her dad wasn't secretly Luke Skywalker. It was the fans that were making wild speculations on who they might be. So when Kylo makes his rant about Rey being a nobody, it feels like it's directed at the viewer.

I think that's a point some people missed: For Rey, the crushing part wasn't "they were nobodies", it was "they sold you for drinking money". Finding out her parent didn't love her.

[Rrmcklin]

While it's heartening to see this thread move on to Star Wars, I do have more thoughts on the topic (well sort of). The existence of the Western Continent has been continuously brought up as invalidating the plight of the goblins. I don't agree with that, and others have already done good take downs of why, but it's also been used to somehow paint Roy and Durkon as hypocrites, and that's what I want to take down.

Because at no point have they or the rest of the Order said what was going on in the Western Continent isn't important. Elan left the resistance with a plan before going, and the implication I believe is that he and Haley will return once this is all over. I'd find it incredibly easy to believe that Roy, Durkon and V, should they all live would be willing to do the same.

But the thing is they're sort of in the middle of a mission to save the world, and the claim they they're hypocrites for doing that before helping the Western Continent is ridiculous. As bad as the Western Continent is do you honestly think if Xykon takes over it won't get worse or in the absolute worst case scenario they can help the Western Continent if it ceases to exist because either the gods decide to destroy the world first or the Snarl breaks out and eats it?

The reason the goblin situation is being given priority is because helping with that more immediately helps save the entire world. The characters directly say this, so I do not understand where the apparent misunderstanding comes from. It is not inherently hypocritical to try and prioritize. This idea that all problems must be tackled at the same time or people don't care is just a roundabout way of saying it doesn't matter if things actually get done or not.

[hungrycrow]

While it's heartening to see this thread move on to Star Wars, I do have more thoughts on the topic (well sort of). The existence of the Western Continent has been continuously brought up as invalidating the plight of the goblins. I don't agree with that, and others have already done good take downs of why, but it's also been used to somehow paint Roy and Durkon as hypocrites, and that's what I want to take down.

Because at no point have they or the rest of the Order said what was going on in the Western Continent isn't important. Elan left the resistance with a plan before going, and the implication I believe is that he and Haley will return once this is all over. I'd find it incredibly easy to believe that Roy, Durkon and V, should they all live would be willing to do the same.

But the thing is they're sort of in the middle of a mission to save the world, and the claim they they're hypocrites for doing that before helping the Western Continent is ridiculous. As bad as the Western Continent is do you honestly think if Xykon takes over it won't get worse or in the absolute worst case scenario they can help the Western Continent if it ceases to exist because either the gods decide to destroy the world first or the Snarl breaks out and eats it?

The reason the goblin situation is being given priority is because helping with that more immediately helps save the entire world. The characters directly say this, so I do not understand where the apparent misunderstanding comes from. It is not inherently hypocritical to try and prioritize. This idea that all problems must be tackled at the same time or people don't care is just a roundabout way of saying it doesn't matter if things actually get done or not.

I feel like responding to discussion of one problem by insisting that another intractable problem needs to be solved first might be a logical fallacy with a name? Can't remember.
But yeah, we keep circling around whether the goblin's have a uniquely bad situation, or whose fault it is. But it doesn't really matter at the moment. The goblins are in conflict with PC races and that'd continue even if Redcloak was killed and The Plan was stopped. As good guys, Roy and Durkon would prefer to solve this peacefully and not by accepting an endless cycle of killing evil goblins. And that has to involve listening to goblin concerns, even if the actual solution doesn't give goblins everything they want in the end.

Speaking of the Western Continent, it is interesting that it seems more egalitarian in its treatment of kobolds and lizardfolk than other places. I wonder if there's something about their society that could be copied, without all of the authoritarianism and endless war.

[Peelee]

I think that's a point some people missed: For Rey, the crushing part wasn't "they were nobodies", it was "they sold you for drinking money". Finding out her parent didn't love her.

Yes, it that was practically cally mentioned as an afterthought. It's largely missed because it's easily missable, which it shouldn't be, given how he has a whole monologue about her parentage.

[Jasdoif]

Here they're talking about a major arc defining issue that everyone clearly feels is important addressing... so it would've been nice if us readers had also been shown something of this supposed important thing (or even its existance) to feel invested the same way they do, rather than just give us two characters constantly chatting about how important it is and expecting us to just trail along.

However important it may be, it isn't urgent at this point. So far we have Redcloak, who's convinced Durkon has been wealthy his entire life and is fine killing all the goblins he claims he wants equality for; and Thor saying one aspect of Redcloak's claims is technically true.

Redcloak won't be convinced by anything Durkon says, what with believing self-serving deception is all he has left, and there's no one else Durkon can engage with to advance his mission from Thor to save the world. Until one of those situations changes, it doesn't matter exactly how far off the mark Redcloak is (or isn't); there isn't any meaningful way for them to use the information, however much Durkon might like there to be. And before said mission, the Order didn't think there was anything more to the (hob)goblins they encountered (including Redcloak) than being Xykon's minions; knowing their general quality of life wouldn't have changed that.

And that's not even getting into Redcloak's own role in the state of affairs. I can easily see Redcloak inflicting burdens (like Xykon) on the people he leads in pursuit of his goal, and then citing those burdens to justify continuing to pursue his goal "for them"; conveniently putting him in a position where actually improving their quality of life is detrimental to him personally....In which case there is no solution he'd accept over his own, no matter how much of the problem is of his own making.


If you think it's too forced to have a couple "look, time's passing" strips with dialog between Roy and Durkon, centered on their shared highly/overly developed senses of responsibility, which establishes that their immediate options haven't been changed....What would be preferable? Setting aside multiple side strips dedicated to something that wouldn't matter until much later? Maybe one of those prequel-y side-story books, Goblin Dan's Day Out or something?

[pearl jam]

Yes, it that was practically cally mentioned as an afterthought. It's largely missed because it's easily missable, which it shouldn't be, given how he has a whole monologue about her parentage.

I haven't watched it in a while, but it could be that her parents being nobodies is the important part to him and their reason for abandoning her an afterthought, while at the same time what was an afterthought to him is the part that hurts her most. This kind of thing happens in interactions all the time where one person says something that isn't a big deal to them but it has a much bigger, frequently unintended, impact on the other party.

Which isn't to imply that the scene was handled in the best possible way or anything, but it's one possible explanation.

[Jason]

A few more words on Rey and the sequel trilogy, and then maybe a word or two on the actual subject of the thread.

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When Kylo Ren begins telling Rey in Last Jedi about her parents, he isn't telling Rey anything she doesn't already know. Ren's source of information on Rey's parents is her own memories, which he ransacked in Force Awakens before Rey learned to shut him out. What he's doing is getting her to face and accept things she already knows.
Rey is in denial about her parents for most of the first two films.
In The Force AwakensShe has a tally of days on the wall of her AT-AT walker home. Days since she was abandoned by her parents. When she meets BB-8 she says she knows what it feels like to be abandoned but "her family is coming back for her." When she leaves Jakku the first thing she wants to do is go back, so she won't miss her parents when they come back. The only thing that tempts her to stay away is Han Solo's offer of a place in his "family". Maz figures out almost immediately that she has abandonment issues, and it's Maz's mistake of telling her "you know they aren't coming back for you," that prevents her from accepting the lightsaber at that point. At the end she decides to go find Luke Skywalker. Why? Because she believes Luke can be mentor/father figure to her.
In The Last Jedi Luke refuses to be the mentor/father figure, and a bitterly disappointed Rey turns first to the Dark Side nexus on Ach-To, and then when the Dark Side mocks her wish to see her parents by showing her just a reflection of herself she turns to Kylo Ren, who despite being someone she has every reason to hate has an emotional connection with her. When he confronts her with what he knows about her parents the message is simple: "Nobody cares about you but me. Nobody understands you but me. Why not come and join me then? What do you have to lose?" In the end Rey decides that she can't choose evil even if it comes with understanding, acceptance, and love.

The idea that Durkon and Roy should go and do something for the Western Continent or they are hypocrites is pretty silly. Saving the entire world from destruction obviously takes priority over saving the people of a continent from tyranny. They aren't making goblin equality a priority over saving the world either.

[Kish]

Her being a nobody was definitely better than any of the other possiblities. But I don't think the reveal was handled very well. Rey was never concerned with who her parents were, just where they went; she was old enough when they left to know her dad wasn't secretly Luke Skywalker. It was the fans that were making wild speculations on who they might be. So when Kylo makes his rant about Rey being a nobody, it feels like it's directed at the viewer.

Not to me. It felt like he was exposing his own philosophy and why he was still, despite having chosen Rey over Snoke, Dark Side and about to come to lightsaber blows with her. He was obsessed with living up to Darth Vader, so he looked at her being upset that her parents sold her for drug money, and thought the way to address what she was upset about was "You're nothing. But not to me."

[woweedd]

Not to me. It felt like he was exposing his own philosophy and why he was still, despite having chosen Rey over Snoke, Dark Side and about to come to lightsaber blows with her. He was obsessed with living up to Darth Vader, so he looked at her being upset that her parents sold her for drug money, and thought the way to address what she was upset about was "You're nothing. But not to me."

Makes sense. As someone who comes from about the least "nobody" background there is, it makes sense Snoke would have appealed to that idea of "you come from a great legacy" and, so, Kylo would emphasizes the Force's partly genetic nature. Kylo feels very strongly about his past, his legacy, about being someone important by nature of who he is.

[Linworm]

Yes, but screw that hack.

Aye. He was a nobody farm boy, his dad's only meaningful contributions were a sword and a friend.

Personally I'd argue they're both hacks, just of different breeds.

[woweedd]

Personally I'd argue they're both hacks, just of different breeds.

I will say: ON a technical and storytelling level, I think Rian Johnson is, frankly, a much better director. Unfortunately, he was sandwiched between JJ's two movies. But i'd love to see the Johnson trilogy.

[Peelee]

I will say: ON a technical and storytelling level, I think Rian Johnson is, frankly, a much better director. Unfortunately, he was sandwiched between JJ's two movies. But i'd love to see the Johnson trilogy.

Seconded. Knives Out left a lot of goodwill in me towards him.

[Precure]

A well-connected nobody. (^_~)

Kurt Vonnegut joked that one famous story, seemingly about a nobody who gets screwed over by the system then triumphs, teaches the wrong lesson because he turns out to be the son of someone important. (So, oh boy do they look stupid for screwing him over.)

The moral of the story isn't "Be decent to your fellow nobodies", it's "Before you screw over a nobody, make sure he isn't well-connected.")

Star Wars always had a feudalistic outlook in its storytelling conventions. Luke is basically a pseudo-medieval stock character, a knight's son, a lost aristocrat who's destined to reclaim his traditional honor by rebelling against the illegimate evil tyrant Prince John Palpatine. What sequels attempted was a plot twist, a deconstruction by making Rey first a nobody, and then the tyrant's own progeny. But by the end of it all, it was nothing but a reconstruction after all, and in the finale Rey assumed the heirlooms of house of Skywalker, became the new lord of the realm.

[Dion]

But by the end of it all, it was nothing but a reconstruction after all, and in the finale Rey assumed the heirlooms of house of Skywalker, became the new lord of the realm.

It’s funny when you put it that way, because the same thing happened in Jaws 3D.

[Ionathus]

It’s funny when you put it that way, because the same thing happened in Jaws 3D.

The Skywalkers were in Jaws 3D?

[Peelee]

The Skywalkers were in Jaws 3D?

Marty McFly almost was.

[Lacuna Caster]

In strip 93 we are introduced to good aligned Goblin teenagers. Roy instantly treats them like he would any other children trying to help, listens when their motivations are explained to him and believes these random Goblins are good aligned based almost entirely on their word, despite the fact that they do get betrayed by one very quickly afterwards. So literally the second it was even partially reasonable to listen to them and understand them, he did. Roy's statement about never asking the Goblins why they did what they did is technically accurate in that he didn't ask, but understood, listened and showed amazing empathy and restraint. This is reinforced with his attitude towards the Orcs in the origin book, but I'll remain spoiler free and Rich has expressed many times he wants the main comic to function without the side materials.

I think a lot of this discussion is already ongoing in the 1233 thread, but one point I want to highlight: you're upset that Durkon is being critical about their interactions with goblins in the past. You feel it's an unfair accusation, and your arguments are solid: Roy has not ever really been in a position where talking would help against goblinoid aggressors.

But the point there wasn't ever "Roy is bad for not talking", the point was that Roy never even considered it.

If you're really going to talk about tonal incongruity between the early and late strip I wouldn't really single this out for particular scrutiny- It's pretty clear that the early Order were terminally irresponsible murderhobos in desperate need of closer supervision, but I don't think the main problem here is Roy attacking the goblins in Dorukan's keep, or even failing to consider diplomacy per se. Even attempting diplomacy requires a cost-benefit weighing of the value of surprise vs. the value of not attacking people who might be persuadable, and the information Roy had at the time was that the goblins in question were bad hombres working for an evil lich and raiding nearby villages for blood and plunder. Not considering diplomacy might not be the most exalted option but it's not evil either.

Applying a coup-de-grace to sleeping enemies or using whatever that tentacles spell was for is a bit more questionable but those are mostly incidental one-page gags and I wouldn't weight them too heavily. The main problem that is still being glossed over in-universe is that Elan activated a self-destruct rune that would expectably lead to a thousand tons of rock being dropped on the heads of any remaining sentient creatures in the dungeon, including the aforementioned helpful goblin teens.

[hungrycrow]

Applying a coup-de-grace to sleeping enemies or using whatever that tentacles spell was for is a bit more questionable but those are mostly incidental one-page gags and I wouldn't weight them too heavily. The main problem that is still being glossed over in-universe is that Elan activated a self-destruct rune that would expectably lead to a thousand tons of rock being dropped on the heads of any remaining sentient creatures in the dungeon, including the aforementioned helpful goblin teens.

Elan was still in the drama over common sense mindset back then. He probably assumed any remaining creatures in the dungeon would escape, simply because it would be narratively inappropriate for them to die that way. It also isn't too terrible an assumption that the surviving goblins learned how the battle with Xykon went and fled immediately.

[Lacuna Caster]

Elan was still in the drama over common sense mindset back then. He probably assumed any remaining creatures in the dungeon would escape, simply because it would be narratively inappropriate for them to die that way. It also isn't too terrible an assumption that the surviving goblins learned how the battle with Xykon went and fled immediately.

If we're going to say that drama could be safely assumed to prevail over common sense, then it's hard to blame Roy for abandoning Elan to the bandits slightly later in the plot. It's not like Elan was in any actual danger in a comedy webcomic. If that can't be safely assumed, then Elan is on the hook for endangering innocents.

[hungrycrow]

If we're going to say that drama could be safely assumed to prevail over common sense, then it's hard to blame Roy for abandoning Elan to the bandits slightly later in the plot. It's not like Elan was in any actual danger in a comedy webcomic. If that can't be safely assumed, then Elan is on the hook for endangering innocents.

Intent matters here. Roy doesn't believe that narrative logic controls everything; he believes there's a real chance of Elan being harmed or killed. Elan on the other hand, sincerely believes in the narrative. Until he meets Tarquin, he doesn't really consider the possibility that following narrative logic could actually have negative consequences.