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Thread: Testing Tiamat

  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Testing Tiamat

    The purpose of this thread is to run a test of the Tiamat statblock to ascertain how weak it actually is, my personal stance is that it isn't a weak statblock at all, certainly not for the intended level.

    The scenario:

    To simplify this as much as possible instead of assumptions about a module no one has time to play out for this question, the following is used.

    This challenge is for a party of 4 level 14 adventurers. Any content is allowed, the Optional class rules are in place from TCoE, but not the optional race rules.

    Any summons of permanent duration are permitted for use from the start(FF, FS, Simulacrum etc.)

    Any buffs of particularly long duration (e.g. Death Ward) may be assumed to be in use, buffs of one minute duration are to be cast in combat. 10 minute buffs may be precast.

    This is a standalone scenario to test the Tiamat statblock individually, not test her efficacy in the module, as such no items or other context from the module is taken into consideration here.

    Players start 60ft away from Tiamat

    Tiamat starts fully summoned and under no weakening effects from the module

    For simplicity we shall assume the classic featureless plane, the map is as big as needed to facilitate the encounter

    The only win conditions are the death of the party or Discorporation/Banishment of Tiamat

    Positioning will be tracked on a Roll20 grid.

    The party may assume a +1 weapon each if desired to be representative of their level, however a hard mode is also available where no loot is assumed (as the rules of 5e do not assume loot in balancing).

    Rulings clarifications:

    Counterspell - Targets the creature casting not the spell itself, it must be upcast to affect Tiamat

    Tenser's Transformation - The additional damage does not apply to Tiamt unless the spell is upcast, all other points work as written

    Rest Tricks - defined as casting of a spell before a long rest ends in order to benefit from the spell without the resource expenditure e.g. stockpiling of Goodberries is not permitted. Regardless the RAW on this it is a DM call and there is no certaintiy the combat would happen within the spell expiration time.

    Force Cage - I am using a size suggested by a 3rd party for Tiamat - 450ft x 150ft, she does not fit within Force Cage

    Magic Jar - Due to the nature of the spell (in and out of character) this will be off the table as agreed with Eladriel below

    Conjure spells - where the intent is for the DM to decided on the summoned creatures, the DM (in this case, myself) will choose the creatures that appear

    Any needed clarification or previously discussed things that have not yet been added can be added into the post in a later date. This is in the interest in clarity and creating a true test of the stat block and is in no way intended to 'move the goalposts'


    Any participating members please use your first post to fully detail each party member in a spoiler, one spoiler per party member. Roleplay things like specific deities, bonds, appearance are irrelevant for the test and so can be ignored. You may use standard array or Point Buy, please list your stats and the +1 item chosen by any characters.

    Please include prepared/known spells for any casters and any choices that needed to be made in the process of character creation e.g. battle master maneuvers

    Please try and record party resources (current hp, slots, portents etc.) as play progresses for easy tracking.

    Once the party is detailed please roll initiative in the dice roll thread.

    Dice thread.

    Eladriel Attempt thread
    Last edited by Dork_Forge; 2021-05-04 at 05:51 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Tiamat's initiative roll is a 10, any party members that exceed her initiative may also post their first turn.

    If multiple party members exceed her initiative please post them one at a time so I may have a chance to insert Legendary Actions as appropriate.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Two confirmations I need before I start ironing out the details of the builds:
    - Magic Jar: Which bodies should I assume to be available? In the module it's simple enough: any enemies you reasonably can expect to face before the fight. But in the broader context of the game there are of course plenty of stronger bodies around. Or would you prefer that I not use the spell?
    - 1 hour spells are okay to be active from the start, right? What about 10 min effects? 1 min you stated is not kosher and I 100% agree. 1 hour seems fair enough, what's your call on 10 min?
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Two confirmations I need before I start ironing out the details of the builds:
    No problem, I had the nagging feeling when I was writing the post I was forgetting things so I've no doubt I have.


    - Magic Jar: Which bodies should I assume to be available? In the module it's simple enough: any enemies you reasonably can expect to face before the fight. But in the broader context of the game there are of course plenty of stronger bodies around. Or would you prefer that I not use the spell?
    My answer as I read the first sentence was none, so I would rather the spell just not be used. There's clearly table difference at play here, but I don't think it's a widely used spell (outside of it being higher level) and I think it's use is so circumstantial it wouldn't really yield anything useful other than: Monster bodies are an upgrade to standard PC bodies, which isn't particularly helpful

    - 1 hour spells are okay to be active from the start, right? What about 10 min effects? 1 min you stated is not kosher and I 100% agree. 1 hour seems fair enough, what's your call on 10 min?
    Ten minutes is a tough one, for the sake of not just ruling out a bunch of stuff other tables might allow I'll say 10 minute buffs are okay. My personal opinion is that it's pretty situational, the time just moving through hallways can be in the minutes so it's pretty DM dependent.

    And whilst it has occurred to me: Conjure x spells where the intent is that the DM chooses I'll pick the creatures as intended, I'll add this and the other things to the OP for reference and clarity for others.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Few more: Planar Binding is kosher? I'm limiting myself to one "strong" (not counting familiars and such) permanent minion per character anyways [so Simulacrum or bound creature] so as to avoid the "I have an army"-syndrome that can be endemic in high level play, but both my Druid and my Cleric would be interested in Planar Binding, as discussed in the original thread.

    - How would you rule Elemental Weapon, Magic Weapon and Holy Weapon WRT Timmy's Magic Immunity? It seems consistent to me that as magic weapons deal full damage and these just target the weapon making it a magic weapon, they should work regardless of slot.

    - How would you rule Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound? Does it do magical or nonmagical damage? Is it a spell-based attack for the purposes of Magic Immunity?

    - How would you rule Defender of Faith? Spell for the purposes of Magic Immunity? Or summoned creature dealing damage?

    - Can I assume that my characters know they will be fighting a high powered enemy on this day? That of course affects the buffs they will use (e.g. my Simulacrums will only use spells if they know enemies are of significant danger).

    Anyways, I'll start editing my characters into this post:
    Spoiler: Andrea Andersson - Human Diviner 14
    Show
    Race: Variant Human
    Class: Wizard
    Subclass: Diviner
    Background: Sage

    HP: 6 + 13*4 + 3*14 = 100

    Feats/ASIs:
    Bonus. Alert
    4. Lucky
    8. Resilient: Constitution
    12. +2 Intelligence

    Stats:
    8 Str
    16 Dex
    16 Con
    18 Int
    8 Wis
    8 Cha

    Skills:
    Stealth
    Arcana
    Investigation
    History
    Nature

    Tools:

    Languages:
    Common
    Elven
    Draconic
    Primordial

    Equipment:
    Quarterstaff
    Traveler's Clothes
    Spellbook
    Scholar's Pack
    Ball Bearings
    Oil
    Longbow
    Light Crossbow
    Wand
    Dagger
    Rope
    Backpack
    10xRatios
    Spell component pouch
    Expensive spell components
    200 arrows
    200 bolts


    Spells known:
    C: Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Firebolt, Chill Touch
    1. Mage Armor, Shield, Fog Cloud, Sleep, Feather Fall, Comprehend Languages, Grease, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Unseen Servant, Identify
    2. Web, Misty Step, Invisibility, Magic Mouth, Blindness/Deafness, Darkness, See Invisibility, Darkvision, Cloud of Daggers, Gentle Repose
    3. Hypnotic Pattern, Haste, Fly, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut, Water Breathing, Magic Circle, Glyph of Warding, Animate Dead
    4. Polymorph, Banishment, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Fire Shield, Resilient Sphere, Arcane Eye, Stone Shape, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
    5. Wall of Force, Animate Objects, Wall of Stone, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Planar Binding, Bigby's Hand, Scrying, Passwall, Rary's Telepathic Bond
    6. Contingency, Programmed Illusion, Disintegrate, Create Homunculus
    7. Simulacrum, Teleport, Forcecage, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion

    Spells prepared (18):
    1. Mage Armor, Shield
    2. Misty Step, Darkvision, Cloud of Daggers
    3. Hypnotic Pattern, Haste, Fly, Counterspell, Major Image
    4. Dimension Door, Fire Shield
    5. Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, Passwall
    6. Disintegrate
    7. Teleport, Forcecage
    Spoiler: Status
    Show
    AC: 16
    HP: 100 + 20 Aid + 7 Heroes' Feast - 6 Homunculus = 121 HP
    Temporary HP: 16

    Speed: 40' (Mount 100')
    Immune to poison, fear & disease.
    Roll Wisdom saves at advantage.
    Resistance to Fire.
    See Invisible up to 10'
    Spoiler: Effects active:
    Show
    Inspiring Leader
    Third Eye: See invisibility

    Mage Armor
    Longstrider
    Darkvision
    Aid (level 5)
    Phantom Steed
    Freedom of Movement
    Fire Shield
    Rary's Telepathic Bond
    Heroes' Feast

    Magic Mouth earpieces (everybody: 30' radar for all creature types)
    Contingency (on self and on Simulacrum: Dimension Door 200' on blinking eyes alternatingly 3 times)
    Spoiler: Spell slots
    Show
    Slots used:
    1. xxxx [Mage Armor on self, Simulacrum, Bard, Bard simulacrum]
    2. xxx [Darkvision x3]
    3. x [Mage Armor on Druid]
    4. x [Fire Shield]
    5.
    6.
    7.
    Spoiler: Owl familiar status
    Show
    AC: 11
    HP: 1 + 12 Heroes' Feast = 13 HP

    Speed: 60'
    Immune to poison, fear & disease.
    Roll Wisdom saves at advantage.
    Spoiler: Effects active:
    Show
    Rary's Telepathic Bond
    Heroes' Feast

    Magic Mouth earpieces (everybody: 30' radar for all creature types)
    Spoiler: Homunculus status
    Show

    AC: 13
    HP: 5 + 7 Heroes' Feast = 12 HP

    Speed: 40' Fly
    Immune to poison, fear & disease.
    Roll Wisdom saves at advantage.
    Spoiler: Effects active:
    Show
    Rary's Telepathic Bond
    Heroes' Feast

    Magic Mouth earpieces (everybody: 30' radar for all creature types)

    Spoiler: Simulacrum status
    Show
    AC: 16
    HP: 50 + 20 Aid + 18 Heroes' Feast = 88 HP
    Temporary HP: 16

    Speed: 40' (Mount 100')
    Immune to poison, fear & disease.
    Roll Wisdom saves at advantage.
    Resistance to Cold.
    See Ethereal up to 60'

    Spoiler: Effects active:
    Show
    Inspiring Leader

    Mage Armor
    Longstrider
    Darkvision
    Aid (level 5)
    Phantom Steed
    Death Ward
    Freedom of Movement
    Fire Shield
    Rary's Telepathic Bond
    Heroes' Feast

    Magic Mouth earpieces (everybody: 30' radar for all creature types)
    Contingency (on self and on Simulacrum: Dimension Door 200' on blinking eyes alternatingly 3 times)
    Spoiler: Spell slots
    Show
    Slots used:
    1.
    2.
    3.
    4. xx [Fire Shield: Cold & Dimension Door for Contingency]
    5.
    6. x [Contingency cast earlier, slot not recovered]
    7.
    Spoiler: Simulacrum's Bat familiar status
    Show

    AC: 12
    HP: 1 + 6 Heroes' Feast = 7 HP

    Speed: 30'
    Immune to poison, fear & disease.
    Roll Wisdom saves at advantage.
    Spoiler: Effects active:
    Show
    Rary's Telepathic Bond
    Heroes' Feast

    Magic Mouth earpieces (everybody: 30' radar for all creature types)

    Spoiler: Artemis Aversano - Human Archer 14
    Show
    Race: Variant Human
    Class: Bard
    Subclass: College of Valor
    Background: Spy

    HP: 8 + 13*5 + 3*14 = 115

    Feats/ASIs:
    Bonus. Lucky
    4. Sharpshooter
    8. Resilient: Constitution
    12. +2 Dexterity

    Stats:
    8 Str
    18 Dex
    16 Con
    8 Int
    8 Wis
    16 Cha

    Skills:
    Stealth (Expertise)
    Acrobatics
    Perception (Expertise)
    Persuasion (Expertise)
    Deception (Expertise)
    Intimidation

    Languages:
    Common
    Dwarven

    Tools:
    Flute
    Viol
    Lyre
    Thieves' Tools
    Dragonchess Set

    Equipment:
    Flute
    Viol
    Lyre
    Thieves' Tools
    Dragonchess Set
    Studded Leather Armor
    Longbow
    Heavy Crossbow
    Rapier
    Dagger
    Wooden Shield
    Crowbar
    Common Clothes
    Traveler's Clothes
    Belt Pouch
    Diplomat's Pack
    Spell Component Pouch
    Expensive Spell Components
    400 arrows
    200 bolts


    Spells:
    Cantrips: Minor Illusion, Vicious Mockery, Mage Hand, Mending
    1. Healing Word, Command, Feather Fall
    2. Enhance Ability
    3. Plant Growth, Major Image, Dispel Magic, Counterspell [Magical Secrets], Elemental Weapon [Magical Secrets]
    4. Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Polymorph
    5. Greater Restoration, Mass Cure Wounds, Raise Dead
    6. Contingency [Magical Secrets], True Seeing
    7. Simulacrum [Magical Secrets], Teleport
    Spoiler: Status
    Show
    AC: 17
    HP: 115 + 20 Aid + 8 Heroes' Feast = 143 HP
    Temporary HP: 16

    Speed: 40' (Mount 100')
    Immune to poison, fear & disease.
    Roll Wisdom saves at advantage.
    Spoiler: Effects active:
    Show
    Inspiring Leader

    Mage Armor
    Longstrider
    Darkvision
    Aid (level 5)
    Phantom Steed
    Death Ward
    Freedom of Movement
    Rary's Telepathic Bond
    Heroes' Feast

    Magic Mouth earpieces (everybody: 30' radar for all creature types)
    Contingency (on self and on Simulacrum: Dimension Door 200' on blinking eyes alternatingly 3 times)
    Elemental Weapon VII
    Spoiler: Spell slots
    Show
    Slots used:
    1.
    2.
    3.
    4. x [Freedom of Movement]
    5.
    6.
    7. x [Elemental Weapon VII]
    Spoiler: Simulacrum status
    Show
    AC: 18
    HP: 57 + 20 Aid + 11 Heroes' Feast = 89 HP
    Temporary HP: 16

    Speed: 40' (Mount 100')
    Immune to poison, fear & disease.
    Roll Wisdom saves at advantage.
    Resistance to all damage [half damage dealt to Cleric]
    +1 to saving throws
    Spoiler: Effects active:
    Show
    Inspiring Leader

    Mage Armor
    Longstrider
    Darkvision
    Aid (level 5)
    Phantom Steed
    Death Ward
    Freedom of Movement
    Rary's Telepathic Bond
    Heroes' Feast
    Warding Bond

    Magic Mouth earpieces (everybody: 30' radar for all creature types)
    Contingency (on self and on Simulacrum: Dimension Door 200' on blinking eyes alternatingly 3 times)
    Spoiler: Spell slots
    Show
    Slots used:
    1.
    2.
    3.
    4. x [Dimension Door for Contingency]
    5.
    6. x [Contingency cast earlier, slot not recovered]
    7.

    Spoiler: Alissa Alarthal - Human Healer 14
    Show
    Race: Variant Human
    Class: Cleric
    Subclass: Life Domain
    Background: Acolyte

    HP: 8 + 13*5 + 3*14 = 115

    Feats/ASIs:
    Bonus. War Caster
    4. Resilient: Constitution
    8. +2 Wisdom
    12. +2 Wisdom

    Stats:
    8 Str
    14 Dex
    16 Con
    10 Int
    20 Wis
    10 Cha

    Skills:
    Stealth
    Insight
    Perception
    Religion
    Medicine

    Tools:

    Languages:
    Common
    Celestial
    Infernal
    Abyssal

    Equipment:
    Half-Plate
    Wooden Shield
    Holy Symbol
    Prayer Beads
    Vestments
    Common Clothes
    Belt Pouch
    Backpack
    Mace
    Light Crossbow
    Bolts
    Priest's Pack
    Expensive spell components
    200 bolts

    Spells (19):
    Cantrips. Guidance, Thaumaturgy, Sacred Flame, Light, Resistance, Mending
    1. Healing Word, Sanctuary, Inflict Wounds, Bless [Domain], Cure Wounds [Domain]
    2. Silence, Aid, Warding Bond, Lesser Restoration [Domain], Spiritual Weapon [Domain]
    3. Spirit Guardians, Dispel Magic, Mass Healing Word, Meld Into Stone, Beacon of Hope [Domain], Revivify [Domain]
    4. Stone Shape, Death Ward [Domain], Guardian of Faith [Domain]
    5. Commune, Mass Cure Wounds [Domain], Raise Dead [Domain]
    6. Heroes' Feast, Heal, Word of Recall
    7. Plane Shift, Conjure Celestial, Etherealness
    Spoiler: Status
    Show
    AC: 19
    HP: 115 + 20 Aid + 15 Heroes' Feast = 150 HP
    Temporary HP: 16

    Speed: 30' (Mount 100')
    Immune to poison, fear & disease.
    Roll Wisdom saves at advantage.
    Spoiler: Effects active:
    Show
    Inspiring Leader

    Darkvision
    Aid (level 5)
    Phantom Steed
    Freedom of Movement
    Rary's Telepathic Bond
    Heroes' Feast

    Magic Mouth earpieces (everybody: 30' radar for all creature types)
    Spoiler: Spell slots
    Show
    Slots used:
    1.
    2. x
    3.
    4. xxx [Death Ward x3 (Wizard Simulacrum, Bard, Bard Simulacrum)]
    5. xx [Aid x2] (all 6)
    6. x [Heroes' Feast] (everyone participated)
    7.
    Spoiler: Couatl status
    Show
    AC: 19
    HP: 97 + 9 Heroes' Feast = 106 HP

    Speed: 100' Fly
    Immune to poison, fear & disease.
    Immune to psychic & mundane weapon attacks.
    Resistance to Radiant:
    Roll Wisdom saves at advantage.
    Spoiler: Effects active:
    Show
    Heroes' Feast
    Longstrider

    Magic Mouth earpieces (everybody: 30' radar for all creature types)

    Spoiler: Aislinn Aileanach - Human Grasskeeper 14
    Show
    Race: Variant Human
    Class: Druid
    Subclass: Circle of the Land: Grasslands
    Background: Folk Hero

    HP: 8 + 13*5 + 3*14 = 115

    Feats/ASIs:
    Bonus. Inspiring Leader
    4. Resilient: Constitution
    8. +2 Wisdom
    12. +2 Wisdom

    Stats:
    8 Str
    12 Dex
    16 Con
    8 Int
    20 Wis
    14 Cha

    Languages:
    Common
    Sylvan
    Druidic

    Tools:
    Herbalism Kit
    Wagon
    Tinker's Tools

    Skills:
    Stealth
    Nature
    Perception
    Animal Handling
    Survival

    Equipment:
    Tinker's Tools
    Shovel
    Iron Pot
    Common Clothes
    Belt Pouch
    Wooden Shield
    Hide Armor
    Explorer's Pack
    Druidic Focus
    Quarterstaff
    Light Crossbow
    Bolts
    Expensive spell components
    200 bolts


    Spells (19):
    Cantrips. Shillelagh, Guidance, Thorn Whip, Frostbite, Druidcraft
    1. Goodberry, Entangle, Healing Word, Longstrider, Fog Cloud
    2. Enhance Ability, Moonbeam, Darkvision, Invisibility [Grasslands], Pass without Trace [Grasslands]
    3. Conjure Animals, Sleet Storm, Daylight [Grasslands], Haste [Grasslands]
    4. Conjure Woodland Beings, Polymorph, Divination [Grasslands], Freedom of Movement [Grasslands]
    5. Wall of Stone, Antilife Shell, Mass Cure Wounds, Greater Restoration, Dream [Grasslands], Insect Plague [Grasslands]
    6. Heal
    7. Whirlwind, Plane Shift
    Spoiler: Status
    Show
    AC: 15
    HP: 115 + 20 Aid + 17 Heroes' Feast = 152 HP
    Temporary HP: 16

    Speed: 30' (Mount 100')
    Immune to poison, fear & disease.
    Roll Wisdom saves at advantage.
    Spoiler: Effects active:
    Show
    Inspiring Leader

    Darkvision
    Aid (level 5)
    Phantom Steed
    Freedom of Movement
    Rary's Telepathic Bond
    Heroes' Feast

    Magic Mouth earpieces (everybody: 30' radar for all creature types)
    Spoiler: Spell slots
    Show
    Slots used:
    1. xxxx (Longstrider x4)
    2. xxx (Darkvision x3)
    3. xxx (Goodberry x2, everyone has two, Longstrider x1)
    4. x (Freedom of Movement on Bard Simulacrum)
    5.
    6.
    7.
    Spoiler: Giant Ape status
    Show
    AC: 12
    HP: 157 + 16 Heroes' Feast = 173 HP

    Speed: 40', 40' climb
    Immune to poison, fear & disease.
    Spoiler: Effects active:
    Show
    Heroes' Feast

    Magic Mouth earpieces (everybody: 30' radar for all creature types)



    Obviously the biggest job is gonna be the spell lists. Magic Jar ban frees me up to pick Contingency or Find Greater Steed (probably just the latter) on my Bard though so that makes life a bit easier. I'll go with the no-magic-items run since with this party, it was never really a relevant consideration in the first place.

    EDIT: It occurs to me that I could pretty easily make it a PHB only party. The only big losses are on the Cleric front: missing out on Summon Celestial and some of the better domains would be a significant handicap (though e.g. Life Domain Cleric would be fine but they would lack a long range option in case Tiamat chooses to kite). Valor Bard is worse than Swords but not by that much and Moon is probably worth less than Shepherd but again, not by that much. Fighting Initiate is meh whatever level (I could dip for it if I really cared but I don't like multiclassing). Bard would miss out on Find Greater Steed and Wizard would miss out on Tenser's, Summon Undead and Summon Greater Demon (all basically to the same ends) though those aren't really integral to anything.


    You know, I'm intrigued enough by whether this works that I'll test it out first. I'll make a PHB only no magic items party. I'm not as certain of victory as with the party I laid out earlier (I haven't run the numbers) but I think there's a reasonable shot still. I'll think through the Land Druid options but I'm probably going Moon in this case though I don't see either Moon or Valor benefitting the team overtly much. I also need to pick another source of Temporary HP.

    EDIT#2: Okay, there's a very preliminary draft of the spell lists. I'll read through them a few more times. They're made pretty quickly so they're far from refined but there's at least something in there.

    EDIT#3: Okay, preliminary equipment draft done too.

    EDIT#4: Buffs, temporary HP effects, etc. done
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-05-05 at 09:38 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    May 2019

    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Few more: Planar Binding is kosher? I'm limiting myself to one "strong" (not counting familiars and such) permanent minion per character anyways [so Simulacrum or bound creature] so as to avoid the "I have an army"-syndrome that can be endemic in high level play, but both my Druid and my Cleric would be interested in Planar Binding, as discussed in the original thread.
    If you want to go for a bound creature then I'd say roll out the binding attempts in the dice thread, if successful then sure.

    - How would you rule Elemental Weapon, Magic Weapon and Holy Weapon WRT Timmy's Magic Immunity? It seems consistent to me that as magic weapons deal full damage and these just target the weapon making it a magic weapon, they should work regardless of slot.
    I'm torn on this and will think more on it, my git reaction is that it's still a spell interacting with her, the same way a smite spell would. JC has tweeted to the same effect on the matter, but I'll say this is TBC

    - How would you rule Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound? Does it do magical or nonmagical damage? Is it a spell-based attack for the purposes of Magic Immunity?
    MFH doesn't summon or create a creature, the 'hound' is just a spell effect so the damage would be magical, but the spell would need to be upcasted to get past her LMI.

    - How would you rule Defender of Faith? Spell for the purposes of Magic Immunity? Or summoned creature dealing damage?
    I think you mean Guardian of Faith? Same as MFH, there's no actual creature involved just the spell, so it'd be negated by her LMI unless upcast.

    A summoned creature is a creature unto itself, so they'd fall under her damage immunities instead of her magical immunity. If their attacks are magical then they'd work.

    - Can I assume that my characters know they will be fighting a high powered enemy on this day? That of course affects the buffs they will use (e.g. my Simulacrums will only use spells if they know enemies are of significant danger).
    A tough fight yes, I'd even hazard to say for the intention of preparing spells (not cantrips or spells known classes) they can assume they're fighting a powerful dragon-based entity so elemental resistance/immunity is likely in play.

    The PCs should have no foreknowledge of her Limited Magical Immunity, and should only deduce spells of lower level are directly ineffective once trial and error has occurred. They also should have no reason to assume her greater number of legendary resistances or double distance frighten effect, since I believe she is unique in both of those.

    Anyways, I'll start editing my characters into this post:
    Spoiler: Andrea Andersson - Human Diviner 14
    Show
    Race: Variant Human
    Class: Wizard
    Subclass: Diviner
    Background: Sage

    Feats/ASIs:
    Bonus. Alert
    4. Lucky
    8. Resilient: Constitution
    12. +2 Intelligence

    Stats:
    8 Str
    16 Dex
    16 Con
    18 Int
    8 Wis
    8 Cha

    Skills:
    Stealth
    Arcana
    Investigation
    Religion
    Nature

    Tools:

    Languages:
    Common
    Elven
    Draconic
    Primordial

    Equipment:
    TBD

    Spells known:
    C: Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Firebolt, Chill Touch
    1. Mage Armor, Shield, Fog Cloud, Sleep, Feather Fall, Comprehend Languages, Grease, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Unseen Servant, Identify
    2. Web, Misty Step, Invisibility, Magic Mouth, Blindness/Deafness, Darkness, See Invisibility, Darkvision, Cloud of Daggers, Gentle Repose
    3. Hypnotic Pattern, Haste, Fly, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut, Water Breathing, Magic Circle, Glyph of Warding
    4. Polymorph, Banishment, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Resilient Sphere, Arcane Eye, Stone Shape, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
    5. Wall of Force, Animate Objects, Wall of Stone, Conjure Elemental, Contact Other Plane, Planar Binding, Bigby's Hand
    6. Contingency, Programmed Illusion, Disintegrate, Create Homunculus, True Seeing
    7. Simulacrum, Teleport, Forcecage, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion

    Spells prepared (18):
    1. Mage Armor, Shield, Feather Fall
    2. Misty Step, Blindness/Deafness, Darkvision, Cloud of Daggers
    3. Hypnotic Pattern, Haste, Fly, Counterspell, Dispel Magic
    4. Polymorph, Dimension Door
    5. Wall of Force, Bigby's Hand
    6. Disintegrate
    7. Teleport, Forcecage

    Spoiler: Artemis Aversano - Human Archer 14
    Show
    Race: Variant Human
    Class: Bard
    Subclass: College of Valor
    Background: Spy

    Feats/ASIs:
    Bonus. Crossbow Expert
    4. Sharpshooter
    8. Resilient: Constitution
    12. Inspiring Leader

    Stats:
    8 Str
    16 Dex
    16 Con
    8 Int
    8 Wis
    16 Cha

    Skills:
    Stealth (Expertise)
    Acrobatics
    Perception (Expertise)
    Persuasion (Expertise)
    Deception (Expertise)
    Intimidation

    Tools:
    Flute
    Viol
    Lyre
    Thieves' Tools
    Dragonchess Set

    Equipment:
    TBD

    Spells:
    TBD

    Spoiler: Alissa Alarthal - Human Healer 14
    Show
    Race: Variant Human
    Class: Cleric
    Subclass: Life Domain

    Feats/ASIs:
    Bonus. War Caster
    4. Resilient: Constitution
    8. +2 Wisdom
    12. +2 Wisdom

    Stats:
    8 Str
    14 Dex
    16 Con
    10 Int
    20 Wis
    10 Cha

    Skills:
    Stealth
    Insight
    Perception
    Religion
    Medicine


    Equipment:
    TBD

    Spells:
    TBD

    Spoiler: Aislinn Aileanach - Human Shapeshifter 14
    Show
    Race: Variant Human
    Class: Druid
    Subclass: Circle of the Moon

    Feats/ASIs:
    Bonus. Lucky
    4. Resilient: Constitution
    8. +2 Wisdom
    12. +2 Wisdom

    Stats:
    8 Str
    14 Dex
    16 Con
    10 Int
    20 Wis
    10 Cha

    Skills:
    Stealth
    Nature
    Perception
    Animal Handling
    Survival

    Equipment:
    TBD

    Spells:
    TBD



    Obviously the biggest job is gonna be the spell lists. Magic Jar ban frees me up to pick Contingency or Find Greater Steed (probably just the latter) on my Bard though so that makes life a bit easier. I'll go with the no-magic-items run since with this party, it was never really a relevant consideration in the first place.

    EDIT: It occurs to me that I could pretty easily make it a PHB only party. The only big losses are on the Cleric front: missing out on Summon Celestial and some of the better domains would be a significant handicap (though e.g. Life Domain Cleric would be fine but they would lack a long range option in case Tiamat chooses to kite). Valor Bard is worse than Swords but not by that much and Moon is probably worth less than Shepherd but again, not by that much. Fighting Initiate is meh whatever level (I could dip for it if I really cared but I don't like multiclassing). Bard would miss out on Find Greater Steed and Wizard would miss out on Tenser's, Summon Undead and Summon Greater Demon (all basically to the same ends) though those aren't really integral to anything.


    You know, I'm intrigued enough by whether this works that I'll test it out first. I'll make a PHB only no magic items party. I'm not as certain of victory as with the party I laid out earlier (I haven't run the numbers) but I think there's a reasonable shot still. I'll think through the Land Druid options but I'm probably going Moon in this case though I don't see either Moon or Valor benefitting the team overtly much. I also need to pick another source of Temporary HP.
    I'm interested to see how a PHB only game goes, I think without a lot of the options (and creep) from later sources it'll be much more difficult. To be honest I don't see an avenue for success but I look forward to seeing what happens.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    If you want to go for a bound creature then I'd say roll out the binding attempts in the dice thread, if successful then sure.
    I've got a Diviner so provided I can have a long duration binding in effect (in this case 10 days), I'll roll the Portents for that day too and use those provided I get any low rolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    A tough fight yes, I'd even hazard to say for the intention of preparing spells (not cantrips or spells known classes) they can assume they're fighting a powerful dragon-based entity so elemental resistance/immunity is likely in play.

    The PCs should have no foreknowledge of her Limited Magical Immunity, and should only deduce spells of lower level are directly ineffective once trial and error has occurred. They also should have no reason to assume her greater number of legendary resistances or double distance frighten effect, since I believe she is unique in both of those.
    Note, my party has access to Commune and Contact Other Plane + Portent (to ensure the Contact Other Plane saves are made) among other things. This gives them a lot of information gathering power. Should we RP out how much information they can gather of the coming fight before the fight itself takes place? These PCs, particularly the Diviner and the Healer (not so much the Archer and the Druid), are very careful indeed and would not willingly engage in a fight without as much information as possible. It's fully possible they'd learn of the Limited Magic Immunity too.

    It probably wouldn't matter overtly much: none of these PCs are blaster types anyways, but there are some corner cases where that might matter (Cleric being the most likely: if she closes in, the Cleric is probably tempted to just Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians as always and while it isn't unreasonable for one of those to be cast at level 7 when trying to kill a big draconic deific thingy, both obviously won't be). On this level Legendary Resistance is simply assumed of all big draconic enemies in particular so spells used will mostly be of "no save" or "save and..."-nature and since Heroes' Feast is still a thing (one of the reasons I asked this question - it's obvious prep for incredibly dangerous fights regardless of the nature of the fight but it's not something you cast on a Sunday stroll through the park) fear as a whole is largely irrelevant.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-05-01 at 10:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    I've got a Diviner so provided I can have a long duration binding in effect (in this case 10 days), I'll roll the Portents for that day too and use those provided I get any low rolls.
    Sounds good.

    Note, my party has access to Commune and Contact Other Plane + Portent (to ensure the Contact Other Plane saves are made) among other things. This gives them a lot of information gathering power. Should we RP out how much information they can gather of the coming fight before the fight itself takes place? These PCs, particularly the Diviner and the Healer (not so much the Archer and the Druid), are very careful indeed and would not willingly engage in a fight without as much information as possible. It's fully possible they'd learn of the Limited Magic Immunity too.
    Those are both basically yes/no question spells, given that you want to also do summoning and binding in the run up to the fight I don't think spamming these is all that feasible so what yes/no questions would you ask to get to LMI without any meta knowledge/logic?

    It probably wouldn't matter overtly much: none of these PCs are blaster types anyways, but there are some corner cases where that might matter (Cleric being the most likely: if she closes in, the Cleric is probably tempted to just Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians as always and while it isn't unreasonable for one of those to be cast at level 7 when trying to kill a big draconic deific thingy, both obviously won't be). On this level Legendary Resistance is simply assumed of all big draconic enemies in particular so spells used will mostly be of "no save" or "save and..."-nature and since Heroes' Feast is still a thing (one of the reasons I asked this question - it's obvious prep for incredibly dangerous fights regardless of the nature of the fight but it's not something you cast on a Sunday stroll through the park) fear as a whole is largely irrelevant.
    My point on Legendary Resistance is her pool of 5 instead of 3.

    Fear effect: if everything on the PC side is immune to Frightened at the time of the encounter then it's moot, my point was a jar in expectations if the PCs were using dragons as their point of reference.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Those are both basically yes/no question spells, given that you want to also do summoning and binding in the run up to the fight I don't think spamming these is all that feasible so what yes/no questions would you ask to get to LMI without any meta knowledge/logic?
    Well, COP is "One-word answer or short phrase if one-word answer would be misleading". The usual question battery could be e.g.:
    - What is the strongest enemy we shall face on the coming day?
    - What is their most troublesome immunity to weapon users? [E.g. nonmagical weapon damage immunity]
    - [Optionally go through all elements] Are they immune to [Element]?
    - Are they immune to magic spells of some level?
    - [If yes] What is the lowest spell level that works on them? ["None" would imply a Golem-type total magic immunity while otherwise you could figure out the level of spells that works here]
    - What other immunity of note do they have?
    - What is their most dangerous attack?
    - What is the strongest spell they can cast?

    You could formulate many of those in a way that works with Commune:
    - Is the strongest enemy we shall fight on [day X] immune to X?

    Go through all important immunities and resistances. Then "Can they cast spells?", "Do they have area of effect damage?", etc. can be used to gain further information. As long as you can identify the most powerful enemy, this is applicable to most types of boss-level encounters. Of course, you can adjust questions on the fly depending on enemy AC. Between 6 Portents, there's a reasonable chance of getting enough for 3-4 castings of COP which is 15-20 questions.


    EDIT: I rolled the-day-before Portents in the roll thread. 1 and 7 guarantee Planar Bindings and 11-19 guarantee 4 successful Contact Other Planes so I could ask 20 questions. Further, I can ritualize Commune on the last day and this day so there's 6 accurate Commune questions available.

    EDIT#2: Preliminary draft of the character sheets done minus equipment. PHB only is making some buffing issues more apparent since the spell lists of especially Druids and Clerics are much more limited in a PHB only settings but it seems workable, if a bit rough. I'm still pondering few options for the Bard (Counterspell vs. Wall of Force) and some Druid/Cleric choices as well as how to apply the rest of the long term buffs and how many slots to put into buffing in general, but that's largely whatever level. I've probably put some useless spells on the lists and forgotten some of the essential ones: this is the issue with doing stuff out of memory and not developing character over a campaign (FWIW I've used some pre-existing spell lists as a blueprint but aside from the Swords Bard and the Diviner, I haven't played these exact subclasses with this kind of party on this level so the needs are a bit different and thus the party dynamics change too).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-05-02 at 08:25 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #10

    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    The purpose of this thread is to run a test of the Tiamat statblock to ascertain how weak it actually is, my personal stance is that it isn't a weak statblock at all, certainly not for the intended level.

    The scenario:

    To simplify this as much as possible instead of assumptions about a module no one has time to play out for this question, the following is used.

    This challenge is for a party of 4 level 14 adventurers. Any content is allowed, the Optional class rules are in place from TCoE, but not the optional race rules.

    Any summons of permanent duration are permitted for use from the start(FF, FS, Simulacrum etc.)

    Any buffs of particularly long duration (e.g. Death Ward) may be assumed to be in use, buffs of one minute duration are to be cast in combat. 10 minute buffs may be precast.

    This is a standalone scenario to test the Tiamat statblock individually, not test her efficacy in the module, as such no items or other context from the module is taken into consideration here.

    Players start 60ft away from Tiamat

    Tiamat starts fully summoned and under no weakening effects from the module

    For simplicity we shall assume the classic featureless plane, the map is as big as needed to facilitate the encounter

    The only win conditions are the death of the party or Discorporation/Banishment of Tiamat

    Positioning will be tracked on a Roll20 grid.

    The party may assume a +1 weapon each if desired to be representative of their level, however a hard mode is also available where no loot is assumed (as the rules of 5e do not assume loot in balancing).

    Rulings clarifications:

    Counterspell - Targets the creature casting not the spell itself, it must be upcast to affect Tiamat

    Tenser's Transformation - The additional damage does not apply to Tiamt unless the spell is upcast, all other points work as written

    Rest Tricks - defined as casting of a spell before a long rest ends in order to benefit from the spell without the resource expenditure e.g. stockpiling of Goodberries is not permitted. Regardless the RAW on this it is a DM call and there is no certaintiy the combat would happen within the spell expiration time.

    Force Cage - I am using a size suggested by a 3rd party for Tiamat - 450ft x 150ft, she does not fit within Force Cage

    Magic Jar - Due to the nature of the spell (in and out of character) this will be off the table as agreed with Eladriel below

    Conjure spells - where the intent is for the DM to decided on the summoned creatures, the DM (in this case, myself) will choose the creatures that appear

    Any needed clarification or previously discussed things that have not yet been added can be added into the post in a later date. This is in the interest in clarity and creating a true test of the stat block and is in no way intended to 'move the goalposts'


    Any participating members please use your first post to fully detail each party member in a spoiler, one spoiler per party member. Roleplay things like specific deities, bonds, appearance are irrelevant for the test and so can be ignored. You may use standard array or Point Buy, please list your stats and the +1 item chosen by any characters.

    Please include prepared/known spells for any casters and any choices that needed to be made in the process of character creation e.g. battle master maneuvers

    Please try and record party resources (current hp, slots, portents etc.) as play progresses for easy tracking.

    Once the party is detailed please roll initiative in the dice roll thread.

    Dice thread.
    Thanks for doing this.

    At level 14 I think the strongest party still has to have at least one Fighter in it--Tiamat is vulnerable to archmages, making her a bad strategic threat from a narrative perspective, but her magic immunity does make things hard for lesser mages with fewer spell slots.

    My BOTE says a Battlemaster 11/Forge Cleric 1/Rogue 2 Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Dex 20 human is an ideal Simulacrum template for fighting Tiamat. (Save Action Surge and maneuver dice until near the end, to finish her off.) Make yourself a Heavy Crossbow +1. Plan to finish each turn 150' to 250'ish from Tiamat. Take turns concentrating on Bless.

    The other three PCs can be wizards (Diviner 13/Forge Cleric 1) or shepherd druid. Wizard has the simplest strategy: stay out of the fight using a Phantom Steed while your Simulacrum of the fighter (also on a Phantom Steed) does the fighting and the Wizard concentrates on Fly VI (fighter + three fighter Simulacra, although until a Fighters' Phantom Steed dies or Tiamat attempts to flee the Fighters will not reveal that they can in fact fly 120' per round), or Bless II, or if there's a third wizard Greater Invisibility for advantage. (Or cast Fog Cloud to grant advantage to all three Fighters, if the DM is running RAW on heavy obscurement--oddly, Tiamat has no blindsight, not even the standard draconic 120' blindsight.) If there's a Shepherd Druid instead of a third wizard he can send waves of conjured animals at Tiamat, depending on what the DM declares shows up.

    That's my BOTE. Not sure if I want to roll it out in detail because it seems obvious that it will succeed, since Simulacrum is such a broken spell and RAW on unseen ranged attackers is so abusable, and Tiamat doesn't have any counterplay available. Even if the DM rules that "start at 60'" means the PCs start in Fireball Formation, Contingency (Dimension Door) or Scatter from the wizard with the highest initiative should solve the problem reasonably well--as long as at least three of the fighters survive round one and retain Fly, she's toast eventually--her regen rate can't keep up with the ~45 DPR that three Fighters will inflict, not even counting superiority dice and Action Surge and possible advantage from visual effects like Fog Cloud or Greater Invisibly.

    Add in a few Planar Bound air elementals or whatever if you've got them just to constrain her movement and give her targets for her breath weapons and the illusion of progress.

    DM rulings will affect the details of how the fight plays out, but I think they won't change the outcome: not more than five minutes after the fight starts, Tiamat dies. That doesn't make her a weak opponent for a level 14 party (clearly we are taking extraordinary measures to defeat her, and the party will feel they were challenged even if they win) but it still leaves her far weaker than Cthulhu or Gobogeg or Hastur, not strong enough to fulfill her place in the narrative as a threat great enough to unify everyone against her including liches and archmages.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2021-05-02 at 11:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Well, COP is "One-word answer or short phrase if one-word answer would be misleading". The usual question battery could be e.g.:
    - What is the strongest enemy we shall face on the coming day?
    - What is their most troublesome immunity to weapon users? [E.g. nonmagical weapon damage immunity]
    - [Optionally go through all elements] Are they immune to [Element]?
    - Are they immune to magic spells of some level?
    - [If yes] What is the lowest spell level that works on them? ["None" would imply a Golem-type total magic immunity while otherwise you could figure out the level of spells that works here]
    - What other immunity of note do they have?
    - What is their most dangerous attack?
    - What is the strongest spell they can cast?

    You could formulate many of those in a way that works with Commune:
    - Is the strongest enemy we shall fight on [day X] immune to X?

    Go through all important immunities and resistances. Then "Can they cast spells?", "Do they have area of effect damage?", etc. can be used to gain further information. As long as you can identify the most powerful enemy, this is applicable to most types of boss-level encounters. Of course, you can adjust questions on the fly depending on enemy AC. Between 6 Portents, there's a reasonable chance of getting enough for 3-4 castings of COP which is 15-20 questions.
    3-4 castings in a single day..? So how long actually is the prep period for this as you have:

    -At least one day dedicated to information gathering

    -Multiple days dedicated to summoning, binding and simulacrum creation (to assume a fresh Simulacrum casting the spell in the immediate days before hand is preferable)

    on COP and Commune: Both spells also say that their sources don't necessarily know the answers to the questions, so I think the following information is a reasonable gathering:

    -Her Immunities

    -That she has Legendary Resistance

    -That she is a spellcaster, but not her spell

    -That her tail is her most powerful attack

    -She has some degree of magical immunity, but not the full extent of that immunity (advantage on saves and assuming that anything below 4th is useless is safe I think)

    I don't see the short phrase line of COP to be carte blanche to just ask none one word questions, and the exact details of a god that has been locked up for so long that differs from her children significantly are probably not known to the majority of creatures you'd be talking to.

    EDIT: I rolled the-day-before Portents in the roll thread. 1 and 7 guarantee Planar Bindings and 11-19 guarantee 4 successful Contact Other Planes so I could ask 20 questions. Further, I can ritualize Commune on the last day and this day so there's 6 accurate Commune questions available.

    EDIT#2: Preliminary draft of the character sheets done minus equipment. PHB only is making some buffing issues more apparent since the spell lists of especially Druids and Clerics are much more limited in a PHB only settings but it seems workable, if a bit rough. I'm still pondering few options for the Bard (Counterspell vs. Wall of Force) and some Druid/Cleric choices as well as how to apply the rest of the long term buffs and how many slots to put into buffing in general, but that's largely whatever level. I've probably put some useless spells on the lists and forgotten some of the essential ones: this is the issue with doing stuff out of memory and not developing character over a campaign (FWIW I've used some pre-existing spell lists as a blueprint but aside from the Swords Bard and the Diviner, I haven't played these exact subclasses with this kind of party on this level so the needs are a bit different and thus the party dynamics change too).
    As we are this far in I'll most likely just allow the Simulacrum to regain the portents, but the RAI behind Simulacrum not regaining resources would push me to say it's basically disposable in any game I actually ran. So I'm currently torn.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Thanks for doing this.

    At level 14 I think the strongest party still has to have at least one Fighter in it--Tiamat is vulnerable to archmages, making her a bad strategic threat from a narrative perspective, but her magic immunity does make things hard for lesser mages with fewer spell slots.
    I agree with a true martial being a necessity. From a narrative perspective I see her threat being a mixture of nullifying the might of tha mjority (armies are worthless, most mages are worthless) whilst unifying all evil dragons into an army.

    My BOTE says a Battlemaster 11/Forge Cleric 1/Rogue 2 Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Dex 20 human is an ideal Simulacrum template for fighting Tiamat. (Save Action Surge and maneuver dice until near the end, to finish her off.) Make yourself a Heavy Crossbow +1. Plan to finish each turn 150' to 250'ish from Tiamat. Take turns concentrating on Bless.

    The other three PCs can be wizards (Diviner 13/Forge Cleric 1) or shepherd druid. Wizard has the simplest strategy: stay out of the fight using a Phantom Steed while your Simulacrum of the fighter (also on a Phantom Steed) does the fighting and the Wizard concentrates on Fly VI (fighter + three fighter Simulacra, although until a Fighters' Phantom Steed dies or Tiamat attempts to flee the Fighters will not reveal that they can in fact fly 120' per round), or Bless II, or if there's a third wizard Greater Invisibility for advantage. (Or cast Fog Cloud to grant advantage to all three Fighters, if the DM is running RAW on heavy obscurement--oddly, Tiamat has no blindsight, not even the standard draconic 120' blindsight.) If there's a Shepherd Druid instead of a third wizard he can send waves of conjured animals at Tiamat, depending on what the DM declares shows up.

    That's my BOTE. Not sure if I want to roll it out in detail because it seems obvious that it will succeed, since Simulacrum is such a broken spell and RAW on unseen ranged attackers is so abusable, and Tiamat doesn't have any counterplay available. Even if the DM rules that "start at 60'" means the PCs start in Fireball Formation, Contingency (Dimension Door) or Scatter from the wizard with the highest initiative should solve the problem reasonably well--as long as at least three of the fighters survive round one and retain Fly, she's toast eventually--her regen rate can't keep up with the ~45 DPR that three Fighters will inflict, not even counting superiority dice and Action Surge and possible advantage from visual effects like Fog Cloud or Greater Invisibly.
    Sorry I'm unfamiliar with the term BOTE, can you please explain?

    I assume the minimum range you're looking to maintain at all times is going to be 125ft then?

    I'm not sure how well this stratgey would work in practice, I think the Simulacrums will go down very quickly and as DPR drops things heavily shift into Tiamat's favour.

    The problem is staying out of her range is a tall order, since she can dash for 240ft a round and some of her breath weapons can reach an additional 120ft. She can effectively fly up over 400 ft range when needed to take a break, her potential movement and range actually give her great pursuit/skirmishing in a kiting scenario, with her attacks being devastating enough that the additional help will drop off fairly quickly.

    Add in a few Planar Bound air elementals or whatever if you've got them just to constrain her movement and give her targets for her breath weapons and the illusion of progress.

    DM rulings will affect the details of how the fight plays out, but I think they won't change the outcome: not more than five minutes after the fight starts, Tiamat dies. That doesn't make her a weak opponent for a level 14 party (clearly we are taking extraordinary measures to defeat her, and the party will feel they were challenged even if they win) but it still leaves her far weaker than Cthulhu or Gobogeg or Hastur, not strong enough to fulfill her place in the narrative as a threat great enough to unify everyone against her including liches and archmages.
    What is the purpose of the Air Elementals sorry? Is this meant to be their Whirlwind effect? They can't grapple her and it's impossible for her to fail a Whirlwind save.

    I think what needs to be kept in perspective here is a couple things but I'll lead with what I think may be most pertinent to you:

    -She is not the most powerful god, the fact that she can appear on the material plane reinforces this. Her threat to the world comes from her being a powerful creature that is difficult to kill, whilst also uniting evil dragons into an army that could easily conquer nations.

    -The reality of a lot of these attempts is that 14th level party: The actual PCs + constructs + small horder-large army of summons. This is probably a table difference but I don't think most parties are rolling like that at those levels. Heck a lot of this boils down to 'party with at least one high level Wizard' where Wizard is probably the least played class that I see personally. Whilst to some degree a Wizard could be replaced by something else, a lot of the problems come from the sheer amount of spells they have the potential to stack up in a vacuum.

    I'm interested in the turn out for the test, I'm not certain on the outcome but at the moment I lean on the Tiamat side unless the dice heavily fall to oppose that.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    3-4 castings in a single day..? So how long actually is the prep period for this as you have:

    -At least one day dedicated to information gathering

    -Multiple days dedicated to summoning, binding and simulacrum creation (to assume a fresh Simulacrum casting the spell in the immediate days before hand is preferable)
    One day accomplishes all those (aside from maybe Simulacrum creation). COP doesn't have repeat cast limit and it's a Ritual so casting it is only limited by time and given the Portents, that doesn't matter. If you'd prefer, though the language of Simulacrum is explicit in that the only limitation is regaining spell slots, I can just not use my Simulacrum Portents. That doesn't make a difference really, I rolled those in case you'd prefer. As long as I have Luck rerolls, casting COP is quite safe. Of course, it's possible the contacted creature doesn't know, but that's all good: in this case I got everything I wanted. I'm still debating few things like Wall of Force vs. Counterspell on my Bards (Valor Bard is actually quite different from Swords Bard: they have much more need for their bonus action and they are much more likely to want to engage at long range making them much worse suited for Crossbow Expert and making Counterspell worse in turn since they're less likely to be within 60'). I'm also impressed by the amount of slots my Cleric has put into buffing my team (all level 4-6 slots) and in general, there's a lot of slotty buffing going on. I'll post my full buffs and everything once I finish the builds.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-05-03 at 09:05 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    One day accomplishes all those (aside from maybe Simulacrum creation). COP doesn't have repeat cast limit and it's a Ritual so casting it is only limited by time and given the Portents, that doesn't matter. If you'd prefer, though the language of Simulacrum is explicit in that the only limitation is regaining spell slots, I can just not use my Simulacrum Portents. That doesn't make a difference really, I rolled those in case you'd prefer. As long as I have Luck rerolls, casting COP is quite safe. Of course, it's possible the contacted creature doesn't know, but that's all good: in this case I got everything I wanted. I'm still debating few things like Wall of Force vs. Counterspell on my Bards (Valor Bard is actually quite different from Swords Bard: they have much more need for their bonus action and they are much more likely to want to engage at long range making them much worse suited for Crossbow Expert and making Counterspell worse in turn since they're less likely to be within 60'). I'm also impressed by the amount of slots my Cleric has put into buffing my team (all level 4-6 slots) and in general, there's a lot of slotty buffing going on. I'll post my full buffs and everything once I finish the builds.
    All it takes is failing a single roll of COP to lose the rest of the day, if you do go insane then you either lose the day or the Cleric loses a 5th level slot to fix it. Since you have to declare portents before the roll, handing portents to that reduces portents availble to forcing failed bindings.

    Luck definitely helps, but the Int check is 15 and the Wizard has a +4 to the check, so they're more likely to fail than they are succeed to begin with.

    Other than that it seems like a stretch time wise, you need a day basically for Simulacrums (which needs to happen before the rest for your reliance on portents), I assume that Familiars are going to be desired because, why not there's Wizards so that fills out day 1 pretty much. The Cleric can do Commune during this time of course, but given the stipulation of Commune that'll probably be spread out through out the day anyway). Then you need two hours of nothing but binding (assuming both are successful first time) and whatever time needed for the actual summoning, you're looking at a least a couple of days.

    The RAW of Simulacrum is clear and I agree, but we also know what the RAI is and the general consensus of how ridiclous it is as a spell. I won't make the hard call on Simulacrum Portents because it's RAW and I don't want to seem like stacking the deck in Tiamat's favour, so I'll leave the decision to you.

    I can think of some of the obvious buffs you'll be using, but I'm interested in the final array of them.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    All it takes is failing a single roll of COP to lose the rest of the day, if you do go insane then you either lose the day or the Cleric loses a 5th level slot to fix it. Since you have to declare portents before the roll, handing portents to that reduces portents availble to forcing failed bindings.

    Luck definitely helps, but the Int check is 15 and the Wizard has a +4 to the check, so they're more likely to fail than they are succeed to begin with.
    +4 is actually 50/50 at DC15, but it's a save so Wizard gets proficiency making it +9. As a save, it can further be enhanced by Bless (if it were an ability check, one would of course use Enhance Ability instead). Each COP only takes 11 minutes to cast so this is actually doable in the time Planar Binding is done by the others (5 questions each meaning 44 minutes to ask 20 questions). At double speed with the Simulacrum and the Wizard.

    Like I said, I posted the saves in the roll thread. 15 on the first one (with reroll and Bless available depending on DM ruling on Bless) and 22 on the other two so all 3 pass without using Lucky, even.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Other than that it seems like a stretch time wise, you need a day basically for Simulacrums (which needs to happen before the rest for your reliance on portents), I assume that Familiars are going to be desired because, why not there's Wizards so that fills out day 1 pretty much. The Cleric can do Commune during this time of course, but given the stipulation of Commune that'll probably be spread out through out the day anyway). Then you need two hours of nothing but binding (assuming both are successful first time) and whatever time needed for the actual summoning, you're looking at a least a couple of days.

    The RAW of Simulacrum is clear and I agree, but we also know what the RAI is and the general consensus of how ridiclous it is as a spell. I won't make the hard call on Simulacrum Portents because it's RAW and I don't want to seem like stacking the deck in Tiamat's favour, so I'll leave the decision to you.

    I can think of some of the obvious buffs you'll be using, but I'm interested in the final array of them.
    I posted the buffs. Most of those prep spells have been cast long ago I'd assume: there's no reason not to have a familiar if you're a Wizard. All it takes is 1 hour 10 mins and 10 gold. Same with most of the other stuff: really, stuff that's specifically cast for this fight is only COPs/Communes and then Heroes' Feast.

    My total buff loadout is:
    - Inspiring Leader speech from the Druid
    - Longstrider/Darkvision/Mage Armor on basically everyone who would benefit (turns out to be surprisingly many in this party)
    - Aid, Heroes' Feast on everyone
    - Death Ward on Simulacrums & the Bard
    - Freedom of Movement on the Bards
    - Fire Shield on Wizard and Simulacrum
    - Contingency on the 4 who can use it (Bard & Simulacrum, Wizard & Simulacrum, slots marked off for it for the Simulacrums since they need to recast it after creation)
    - Phantom Steed on all the 6 casters (the Wizard & Simulacrum both maintain 3: this takes half their uptime)
    - Rary's Telepathic Bond on all the 6 casters & Couatl and Giant Ape (Familiars don't qualify due to too low an Int but they're naturally telepathic with their masters anyways - alternating casting between the Wizard and their Simulacrum to keep constantly active)
    - Programmed Illusion on the Bards' Longbows to create a cloud of darkness on a command word (basically used to gain Unseen Attacker bonuses at range)


    Phew, I think that's everything. Oh and due to foreknowledge of an extremely powerful entity, Bard has cast Elemental Weapon VII on Thunder (as always). There may be some errors in the statblock as editing a bunch of them so fast is a pain but I tried to be consistent and precise.

    EDIT: While it doesn't matter in this case, to be conscientious and play like I'd normally play with a party like this, I'll say the Simulacrum uses a 3 on Tiamat's Initiative making Tiamat's Initiative roll a 3 instead.

    EDIT#2: Oh yeah, and the Wizard actually has the Bard Simulacrum while the Bard has the Wizard Simulacrum. So the Bardluracrum acts on the Wizard's turn and the Wizardluracrum acts on the Bard's turn.

    EDIT#3: And the Simulacrum has a bat, not an Owl familiar.

    EDIT#4: Should we make another thread for the fight? This could be the OOC thread in case other people wanna try different parties out too. Though I think an enclosed space like the Great Apse would make for a better fighting arena (because it would keep kiting viable but no longer an autowin and OTOH Timmy would be restricted in terms of mobility too - a featureless plains is almost never a realistic environment, though of course a simple one).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-05-04 at 10:16 AM.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    +4 is actually 50/50 at DC15, but it's a save so Wizard gets proficiency making it +9. As a save, it can further be enhanced by Bless (if it were an ability check, one would of course use Enhance Ability instead). Each COP only takes 11 minutes to cast so this is actually doable in the time Planar Binding is done by the others (5 questions each meaning 44 minutes to ask 20 questions). At double speed with the Simulacrum and the Wizard.

    Like I said, I posted the saves in the roll thread. 15 on the first one (with reroll and Bless available depending on DM ruling on Bless) and 22 on the other two so all 3 pass without using Lucky, even.
    My bad on that, in my head I had check and 16.

    Bless I'm not sure on: The save would happen at the end of the casting time as that's when you actually cast it, but with a minute for each the timing would have to be very precise. Just to get things moving let's just let Bless stand.

    I posted the buffs. Most of those prep spells have been cast long ago I'd assume: there's no reason not to have a familiar if you're a Wizard. All it takes is 1 hour 10 mins and 10 gold. Same with most of the other stuff: really, stuff that's specifically cast for this fight is only COPs/Communes and then Heroes' Feast.
    I don't think it will amount to an issue, but I wouldn't assume anything that could be reasonably done in the days leading up to the encounter, saves on making it a more transferrable test.

    My total buff loadout is:
    - Inspiring Leader speech from the Druid
    - Longstrider/Darkvision/Mage Armor on basically everyone who would benefit (turns out to be surprisingly many in this party)
    - Aid, Heroes' Feast on everyone
    - Death Ward on Simulacrums & the Bard
    - Freedom of Movement on the Bards
    - Fire Shield on Wizard and Simulacrum
    - Contingency on the 4 who can use it (Bard & Simulacrum, Wizard & Simulacrum, slots marked off for it for the Simulacrums since they need to recast it after creation)
    - Phantom Steed on all the 6 casters (the Wizard & Simulacrum both maintain 3: this takes half their uptime)
    - Rary's Telepathic Bond on all the 6 casters & Couatl and Giant Ape (Familiars don't qualify due to too low an Int but they're naturally telepathic with their masters anyways - alternating casting between the Wizard and their Simulacrum to keep constantly active)
    - Programmed Illusion on the Bards' Longbows to create a cloud of darkness on a command word (basically used to gain Unseen Attacker bonuses at range)
    What is the trigger for Contingency?

    Phew, I think that's everything. Oh and due to foreknowledge of an extremely powerful entity, Bard has cast Elemental Weapon VII on Thunder (as always). There may be some errors in the statblock as editing a bunch of them so fast is a pain but I tried to be consistent and precise.
    Okay, please try and bold or something whenever someone is concentrating just so we can remember saves as necessary over a long period of time.

    EDIT: While it doesn't matter in this case, to be conscientious and play like I'd normally play with a party like this, I'll say the Simulacrum uses a 3 on Tiamat's Initiative making Tiamat's Initiative roll a 3 instead.
    Thank you

    EDIT#2: Oh yeah, and the Wizard actually has the Bard Simulacrum while the Bard has the Wizard Simulacrum. So the Bardluracrum acts on the Wizard's turn and the Wizardluracrum acts on the Bard's turn.

    EDIT#3: And the Simulacrum has a bat, not an Owl familiar.
    Got it

    EDIT#4: Should we make another thread for the fight? This could be the OOC thread in case other people wanna try different parties out too. Though I think an enclosed space like the Great Apse would make for a better fighting arena (because it would keep kiting viable but no longer an autowin and OTOH Timmy would be restricted in terms of mobility too - a featureless plains is almost never a realistic environment, though of course a simple one).
    We still disagree about autowin, but I'm good on whatever. I will note however that the Great Apse is not large enough to serve as an arena for Tiamat, she's 450ft x 150ft (using Max's number to both try and be impartial and also because I tend to not run too many Gargantuan creatures, finding maps for them is a pain. So would you like the boundless or do you have a suggestion for a bounded map that would be large enough to accommodate?

    I'll make another thread and link it in the OP here, if you could just do updated statuses at the end of each turn. Do double posting rules apply here? I would hope not for clarity on turn division, but either way eh.

    As in the scenario the party en masse is 60ft away from her, what lay out of characters would you go for? xs in ascii or a spreadsheet snip would be helpful so I can set the grid up accurately to what you intend. I would ask that this be a reasonable layout: e.g. since you have multiplied the party numbers and put most of them on large creatures, 20ft between each member wouldn't be reasonable as that would be an absolutely massive line.
    Last edited by Dork_Forge; 2021-05-04 at 05:49 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #16
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    What is the trigger for Contingency?
    I have listed them on the character sheets "Effects"-list: I went with an old classic of "blink an eye alternatingly 3 times" (so right, left, right). It's something that never happens by accident but can be done at-will at practically any point. The effect is Dimension Door.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Okay, please try and bold or something whenever someone is concentrating just so we can remember saves as necessary over a long period of time.
    I'll try and make it as obvious as possible. I'll make a list of active effects at the end of each round and try to remember everything myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    We still disagree about autowin, but I'm good on whatever. I will note however that the Great Apse is not large enough to serve as an arena for Tiamat, she's 450ft x 150ft (using Max's number to both try and be impartial and also because I tend to not run too many Gargantuan creatures, finding maps for them is a pain. So would you like the boundless or do you have a suggestion for a bounded map that would be large enough to accommodate?

    I'll make another thread and link it in the OP here, if you could just do updated statuses at the end of each turn. Do double posting rules apply here? I would hope not for clarity on turn division, but either way eh.

    As in the scenario the party en masse is 60ft away from her, what lay out of characters would you go for? xs in ascii or a spreadsheet snip would be helpful so I can set the grid up accurately to what you intend. I would ask that this be a reasonable layout: e.g. since you have multiplied the party numbers and put most of them on large creatures, 20ft between each member wouldn't be reasonable as that would be an absolutely massive line.
    Hmm, that's one issue with Timmy at that size. I can't think of any huge indoors terrain maps: this was the biggest cathedral I could find but at 450' across, you'd have to make that pretty small for her to be able to maneuver. We could just use Great Apse and scale it down a bit: instead of 1 square being 10', say one square is 50'. Then she's only 9 squares horizontally and 3 squares vertically, with enough room to maneuver and fly around.
    Spoiler: Aside about Tiamat speed
    Show
    Of course, in relation to that size, her speed is ridiculously low: she moves 2,5 squares per turn (about 5 when dashing) meaning it takes her two full rounds of dashing (12 seconds) to move her body's length - and this is dashing, not accelerating. By comparison, a blue whale (about 80 feet) moves at about 45 feet per second while "dashing" so 270 feet per round or about thrice their body length. And while not nearly Tiamat-sized, it's still big enough to be in a similar neighbourhood (bigger than D&D Tarrasque).


    As for party, yeah, it's probably like:
    xxxxxxxx
    CDBxGAP
    xxxxxGAP
    WSQxGAP
    xxxxxxxx


    GAP = Giant Ape
    D = Druid
    C = Cleric
    B = Bard
    W = Wizard
    S = Wizard Simulacrum
    Q = Bard Simulacrum

    With the Couatl flying like 10' overhead. Familiars and Homunculus are on their casters' person in like backpacks or something for now (normally they'd be scouting or doing stuff but let's just pretend they needed a rest or something). Not the strategically most sound positioning but it'll do for now. All the PCs are mounted on Phantom Steeds (Wizards constantly replenish them; 2 Wizards is enough for 10 people).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-05-04 at 10:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    I have listed them on the character sheets "Effects"-list: I went with an old classic of "blink an eye alternatingly 3 times" (so right, left, right). It's something that never happens by accident but can be done at-will at practically any point. The effect is Dimension Door.
    Ahh I see it now thanks

    I'll try and make it as obvious as possible. I'll make a list of active effects at the end of each round and try to remember everything myself.
    Thank you

    Hmm, that's one issue with Timmy at that size. I can't think of any huge indoors terrain maps: this was the biggest cathedral I could find but at 450' across, you'd have to make that pretty small for her to be able to maneuver. We could just use Great Apse and scale it down a bit: instead of 1 square being 10', say one square is 50'. Then she's only 9 squares horizontally and 3 squares vertically, with enough room to maneuver and fly around.
    For simplicity I'm just going to use a white grid, fluff wise it's a giant underground cavern.

    Spoiler: Aside about Tiamat speed
    Show
    Of course, in relation to that size, her speed is ridiculously low: she moves 2,5 squares per turn (about 5 when dashing) meaning it takes her two full rounds of dashing (12 seconds) to move her body's length - and this is dashing, not accelerating. By comparison, a blue whale (about 80 feet) moves at about 45 feet per second while "dashing" so 270 feet per round or about thrice their body length. And while not nearly Tiamat-sized, it's still big enough to be in a similar neighbourhood (bigger than D&D Tarrasque).
    In terms of real life? Sure, but speeds don't really match to real life anyway and a whale plays by different rules being in water.

    As for party, yeah, it's probably like:
    xxxxxxxx
    CDBxGAP
    xxxxxGAP
    WSQxGAP
    xxxxxxxx


    GAP = Giant Ape
    D = Druid
    C = Cleric
    B = Bard
    W = Wizard
    S = Wizard Simulacrum
    Q = Bard Simulacrum

    With the Couatl flying like 10' overhead. Familiars and Homunculus are on their casters' person in like backpacks or something for now (normally they'd be scouting or doing stuff but let's just pretend they needed a rest or something). Not the strategically most sound positioning but it'll do for now. All the PCs are mounted on Phantom Steeds (Wizards constantly replenish them; 2 Wizards is enough for 10 people).
    Okay I've filled in the map here:

    Spoiler: Grid layout and starting positions
    Show



    There's 60ft between the front line of the party and Tiamat as discussed, there's roughly a 100ft border around (from the back/sides of Tiamat and the back of the party) to work with for maneuverability. Given her size and the starting distance, any 'indoor' map was always going to be incredibly massive already.

    The tokens for the PCs are sized to large to represent the mounts.

    All of that seem in order to you?



    Whilst filling the tokens in I did notice some irregularities in the sheets:

    Wizard & Simulacrum should have AC 16 not 17 (Mage Armor 13+3 Dex)

    Bard and Simulacrum should have AC 16 not 17 (Studded Leather 12 + 4 Dex)

    Druid should have AC 15 not 16 (Hide 12 + 1 Dex + 2 shield)

    The Giant Ape block appears to be half a Couatl block.

    The ACs are consistently +1 to what they should be, but I can't see any active effects that would do that?

    Once the AC thing is resolved and you're happy with the lay out go ahead and take the Druid's turn when you're ready.
    Last edited by Dork_Forge; 2021-05-05 at 02:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Whilst filling the tokens in I did notice some irregularities in the sheets:

    Wizard & Simulacrum should have AC 16 not 17 (Mage Armor 13+3 Dex)

    Bard and Simulacrum should have AC 16 not 17 (Studded Leather 12 + 4 Dex)

    Druid should have AC 15 not 16 (Hide 12 + 1 Dex + 2 shield)

    The Giant Ape block appears to be half a Couatl block.

    The ACs are consistently +1 to what they should be, but I can't see any active effects that would do that?

    Once the AC thing is resolved and you're happy with the lay out go ahead and take the Druid's turn when you're ready.
    Wizard ACs I thought I resolved this morning already (17 was the Magic Jar-numbers, I changed them but perhaps I forgot to save?). Bard numbers are right since they have Mage Armor on top of them in addition to the armor. Druid number was right since he had Mage Armor but due to slot economy I dropped that so I'll drop the AC too. I'll fix the Giant Ape statblock.

    EDIT: Oh yeah and the Bard Simulacrum has Warding Bond giving them +1 AC and +1 to saves.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-05-05 at 07:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Wizard ACs I thought I resolved this morning already (17 was the Magic Jar-numbers, I changed them but perhaps I forgot to save?). Bard numbers are right since they have Mage Armor on top of them in addition to the armor. Druid number was right since he had Mage Armor but due to slot economy I dropped that so I'll drop the AC too. I'll fix the Giant Ape statblock.

    EDIT: Oh yeah and the Bard Simulacrum has Warding Bond giving them +1 AC and +1 to saves.
    Thanks for clearing that up, please take the Druid's turn when you're ready.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Ahh I see it now thanks



    Thank you



    For simplicity I'm just going to use a white grid, fluff wise it's a giant underground cavern.



    In terms of real life? Sure, but speeds don't really match to real life anyway and a whale plays by different rules being in water.



    Okay I've filled in the map here:

    Spoiler: Grid layout and starting positions
    Show



    There's 60ft between the front line of the party and Tiamat as discussed, there's roughly a 100ft border around (from the back/sides of Tiamat and the back of the party) to work with for maneuverability. Given her size and the starting distance, any 'indoor' map was always going to be incredibly massive already.
    Btw, it feels to me like 100' is too little. Tiamat's dimensions mean she couldn't even turn airborne at 100' (with a wingspan of 450', to fly she'd need to be able to spread her wings and at 260' they'd just collide if she moved horizontally). Perhaps 400' behind each party or so? 1000' x 1000' would be the minimum area I would think that would make sense as something where you could conjure something that big, or as a lair for a massive creature. Perhaps we should frame this as a lair battle of sorts and just say the PCs were teleported in or something to make it all make sense.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2021-05-05 at 11:08 PM.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Btw, it feels to me like 100' is too little. Tiamat's dimensions mean she couldn't even turn airborne at 100' (with a wingspan of 450', to fly she'd need to be able to spread her wings and at 260' they'd just collide if she moved horizontally). Perhaps 400' behind each party or so? 1000' x 1000' would be the minimum area I would think that would make sense as something where you could conjure something that big, or as a lair for a massive creature.
    I don't think there's realistically going to be anywhere lair size for her that isn't just the entire Underdark, for a place of summoning having such a large amount of space in excess once she is fully formed seems like an impressive achievement already.

    I would have just gone for entirely open, but as you suggested an enclosed space and did not object to the sizing when I laid it out a couple of posts ago (and as the game is now in motion) I would rather leave the setting in place. I feel this is somewhat realistic, given the locations creatures find themselves in wouldn't always be ideal, she'd probably prefer somewhere she could fly around amply but she'll probably just be happy to be out of Avernus.

    Give that wingspan doesn't have any mechanical implications for her flight I don't think it should bother the simulation much if at all.

    To address your edit about a lair proposal: I think leaving it as is should be okay, after all her statblock was designed for her to not have a lair. If she were to have one it would make no sense not to come up with lair actions for her as well. Since we don't have them that is a can of worms I'd rather not open.

    But thank you for your concern I appreciate the thought.
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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    (A) Sorry I'm unfamiliar with the term BOTE, can you please explain?

    (B) I assume the minimum range you're looking to maintain at all times is going to be 125ft then?

    I'm not sure how well this stratgey would work in practice, I think the Simulacrums will go down very quickly and as DPR drops things heavily shift into Tiamat's favour.

    (C) The problem is staying out of her range is a tall order, since she can dash for 240ft a round and some of her breath weapons can reach an additional 120ft. She can effectively fly up over 400 ft range when needed to take a break, her potential movement and range actually give her great pursuit/skirmishing in a kiting scenario, with her attacks being devastating enough that the additional help will drop off fairly quickly.

    (D) What is the purpose of the Air Elementals sorry? Is this meant to be their Whirlwind effect? They can't grapple her and it's impossible for her to fail a Whirlwind save.
    (A) BOTE: Back-of-the-envelope calculation. It's a rough calculation with some spherical cows still embedded and some variables not completely nailed down.

    (B) They're using longbows so 125' is an absolute minimum, but they'll take as much as they can get, scattering in different directions if necessary, although if Fog Cloud is allowed to grant advantage to all four archers at once there's some incentive for them to try to stay together. (Ergo, tactics depend partially on how the DM runs heavy obscurement.)

    (C) IMO that's not such a big deal, since Phantom Steeds can already get 220' movement easily (100' + Longstrider + Dash) and more is possible via e.g. Haste if needed, although scattering in different directions may make Greater Invisibility a better use of concentration. But you're right, Dashing is a good strategy for her, one I strangely forgot about, maybe good enough to make playing the scenario out in detail worthwhile. Let me know if you want to.

    (D) Since you can't end your movement in an enemy creature's square, the elementals are there to restrict where she's allowed to end her movement and make it harder for her to pursue the archers.

  23. - Top - End - #23
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    (A) BOTE: Back-of-the-envelope calculation. It's a rough calculation with some spherical cows still embedded and some variables not completely nailed down.
    ahh thank you for explaining

    (B) They're using longbows so 125' is an absolute minimum, but they'll take as much as they can get, scattering in different directions if necessary, although if Fog Cloud is allowed to grant advantage to all four archers at once there's some incentive for them to try to stay together. (Ergo, tactics depend partially on how the DM runs heavy obscurement.)
    For this kind of thing I try to bridge rulings with RAW, since I think a lot of the things that make these kinds of scenarios viable would be cans of worms unto themselves in my actual games.

    (C) IMO that's not such a big deal, since Phantom Steeds can already get 220' movement easily (100' + Longstrider + Dash) and more is possible via e.g. Haste if needed, although scattering in different directions may make Greater Invisibility a better use of concentration. But you're right, Dashing is a good strategy for her, one I strangely forgot about, maybe good enough to make playing the scenario out in detail worthwhile. Let me know if you want to.
    I'm game for it, if you'd like to do so then please provide the full blocks and buffs involved when you have the time and any feeback regarding the set up before game start.

    (D) Since you can't end your movement in an enemy creature's square, the elementals are there to restrict where she's allowed to end her movement and make it harder for her to pursue the archers.
    Ahh they're like high fantasy traffic cones, that's actually pretty amusing.
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  24. - Top - End - #24

    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    For this kind of thing I try to bridge rulings with RAW, since I think a lot of the things that make these kinds of scenarios viable would be cans of worms unto themselves in my actual games.
    RAW means different things to different people though. AFAICT, RAW in this case means Fog Cloud grants advantage, but there are enough forum arguments that I'm not 100% sure you would agree.

    I'm game for it, if you'd like to do so then please provide the full blocks and buffs involved when you have the time and any feeback regarding the set up before game start.
    Okay, it won't be today though.

    Ahh they're like high fantasy traffic cones, that's actually pretty amusing.
    Yeah. I guess I could actually use them as mounts, instead of concentrating on Fly, which would let all the wizards concentrate on Haste while the Battlemasters take turns concentrating on Bless. I'll have to think over what I want to do. How many Planar Bound summons would be reasonable to assume? A hundred is possible at level 14, but extremely expensive; eight is more than I would normally see in play, but doable in a couple of days of work, and plausible for a team that knows they're going to take on Tiamat.

  25. - Top - End - #25
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Testing Tiamat

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    RAW means different things to different people though. AFAICT, RAW in this case means Fog Cloud grants advantage, but there are enough forum arguments that I'm not 100% sure you would agree.
    I'd have to reread the specific rules to give a solid on it, I know there's some weird rules thing where you can end up blind but unhindered or some such.

    Okay, it won't be today though.
    Whenever is good with you, I'd just ask that if it's in a couple days or something then just shoot me a PM to make sure that I saw you updated the thread please.

    Yeah. I guess I could actually use them as mounts, instead of concentrating on Fly, which would let all the wizards concentrate on Haste while the Battlemasters take turns concentrating on Bless. I'll have to think over what I want to do. How many Planar Bound summons would be reasonable to assume? A hundred is possible at level 14, but extremely expensive; eight is more than I would normally see in play, but doable in a couple of days of work, and plausible for a team that knows they're going to take on Tiamat.
    Personal I'd say that beings of pure air don't have appropriate anatomy to be mounts, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

    In terms of things like elementals I would say it depends on the time investment, I think a few days of prep would be acceptable and would like long lasting things to be prepared in that time (including Simulacrums) to avoid it being an infinite amount of prep time with long lasting spells spiraling out of control. So how many really depends on party composition and what other prep you want to do.
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