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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Moar Chicken needed

    Seen in the Washington Post

    It seems the poultry paucity has arrived, heralded by a series of fast-food executives describing in earnings calls their stores’ struggles to stock enough chicken — nuggets, tenders, wings, patties, all shapes and sizes — to keep pace with legions of peckish Americans.

    “Demand for the new sandwich has been so strong that, coupled with general tightening in domestic chicken supply, our main challenge has been keeping up with that demand,” said David Gibbs, CEO of Yum Brands, whose KFC restaurants recently rolled out a new fried-chicken sandwich.

    Chicken has for years been the most popular meat in the United States and experts and analysts have cited several reasons for the current deficit. Some are related to the coronavirus — pandemic-spurred disruptions in the market and supply chain and an increased demand for a comfort food that is takeout- or delivery-friendly. Others, industry watchers say, include increased competition, volatile feed prices and even the deadly winter storms that swept over the South in February, halting the work of chicken processors.

    And then there’s the proliferation of the fried chicken sandwich.

    ...

    But the poultry industry’s problems run much deeper than a shortage of the finished product. If 2019 was YOTCS, 2020 was the year that Big Meat’s labor issues became the subject of national headlines.

    Investigative reporting and lawsuits have revealed life-threatening conditions that workers in meat and poultry plants have endured during the pandemic, and they’ve prompted criticism that the industry is more concerned with profit than with safety.
    ...

    One industry official in North Carolina predicted the crunch would get more acute as the weather warms and more Americans begin grilling regularly.

    “What we need,” the official told WSOC-TV, “is a four-winged chicken.”
    The feathers must flow. I assume actually genetically engineering a four-winged chicken is out of the question? If so, how will we keep up with the demand?

    Training Americans to like soy rather than chicken would probably be better for the environment, but that's easier said than done.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    What they're talking about is a price rise.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I assume actually genetically engineering a four-winged chicken is out of the question?
    Eh, you'd have a better time just modifying them to grow larger amounts of breast muscle rather than retool the wing structure.

    Training Americans to like soy rather than chicken...
    Well, it's more than just 'like'...

    It's a matter of people being used to chicken, the ways to prepare it, etc. For example, the substitute meat products. They're pretty well along in getting on par with beef in taste and texture, but most folks will prefer to consume beef (well, ground beef, since you really can't compare impossible meat with a New York strip steak, a ribeye...) And soy flavors differently than chicken.

    There would also be a lot of folks who would fight it because of their ties to chicken processing. Switching from a live animal to a plant would disrupt the industries they're in, so there's a natural inclination there to resist it.

    Then there'd have to be teaching folks about adjusting their diet. There are macro and micronutrients in meat that are either not found in soy, not in the same amounts, or as easily digestible. Like heme iron being solely in meat, which is easier for the body to absorb. Then there's the total lack of B12 in soy...

    The advantage soy has over chicken is that chicken in megafarms need regular antibiotics. They're also breeding grounds for things like H1 viri.
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    This has happened before. When McDonalds ran their new chicken tenders, there was a shortage at some of the largest distributors. This is, as the media often does, a bunch of big scare for a short price spike.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    :Nod: Jazz Shaw, at the site hotair.com (political so I won't link it here) agrees with your analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Shaw
    Chicken wings are one of the most popular take-out items on the menu, so while supplies have remained about the same, demand is far higher. Unfortunately, the poultry farms can’t simply ramp up their output at a moment’s notice. It takes a year to raise chickens to the appropriate age and size for sending them to market. And since nobody knows when all the lockdowns will fully end, farmers can’t afford to massively increase the number of birds they are raising and then have the bottom drop out of the market. So this really is a simple supply and demand issue. As demand rises and supply can’t match it, prices increase and shortages happen.
    Linking to This story at KCRA tells us that it isn't chicken of all kinds that's a problem, but specifically chicken wings. Some restaurants are going to be making fake "wings" from breast meat.

    A shortage and a price rise is a very different thing from the apocalyptic vision from the original Washington Post article, which implied we were running out of chicken meat period. I wish they wouldn't do that. Constant over-reporting of "crises" makes it hard to convince people to take real problems seriously when they come up, because they're used to their media chicken-littling every minor blip as if it were a civilization-ending crisis for the sake of getting more clicks.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Chicken flavoured soy, like they do in Shadowrun. That would be the solution. It tastes like chicken and it's better for the environment. I'm sure that there are ways to do that, although I wouldn't know how myself.
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    :Nod: Jazz Shaw, at the site hotair.com (political so I won't link it here) agrees with your analysis.



    Linking to This story at KCRA tells us that it isn't chicken of all kinds that's a problem, but specifically chicken wings. Some restaurants are going to be making fake "wings" from breast meat.

    A shortage and a price rise is a very different thing from the apocalyptic vision from the original Washington Post article, which implied we were running out of chicken meat period. I wish they wouldn't do that. Constant over-reporting of "crises" makes it hard to convince people to take real problems seriously when they come up, because they're used to their media chicken-littling every minor blip as if it were a civilization-ending crisis for the sake of getting more clicks.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    If anything the over harvesting of chickens for chicken wings should depress chicken prices (outside of said chicken wings.)
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Eh, you'd have a better time just modifying them to grow larger amounts of breast muscle rather than retool the wing structure.
    We've already done that through breeding, to the point where meat chickens can barely walk by the time they reach maturity. I've honestly seldom seen an animal as absolutely wretched looking as a modern meat chicken, even when they have an otherwise pretty much ideal existence with plenty of space, food, and time out of doors. All the robust heritage breeds would be happily scratching and pecking their way about the yard, and the poor meat breed would be hunched up in a corner, legs folding inwards under the weight of those obscenely oversized breast muscles.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    We've already done that through breeding, to the point where meat chickens can barely walk by the time they reach maturity. I've honestly seldom seen an animal as absolutely wretched looking as a modern meat chicken, even when they have an otherwise pretty much ideal existence with plenty of space, food, and time out of doors. All the robust heritage breeds would be happily scratching and pecking their way about the yard, and the poor meat breed would be hunched up in a corner, legs folding inwards under the weight of those obscenely oversized breast muscles.
    That raises a question for ethical vegans and vegetarians (full disclosure; I could be persuaded to become the second but not the first): What do we do about all these animals -- I assume chickens are not the only ones bred this way -- who can't function as wild creatures? Who are, in fact, bred as meat and can only be kept alive on domestic farms? Let the strains die out and let the original, natural breeds reassert themselves?

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2021-05-03 at 11:46 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #10
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    That raises a question for ethical vegans and vegetarians (full disclosure; I could be persuaded to become the second but not the first): What do we do about all these animals -- I assume chickens are not the only ones bred this way -- who can't function as wild creatures? Who are, in fact, bred as meat and can only be kept alive on domestic farms? Let the strains die out and let the original, natural breeds reassert themselves?

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    So I think there's degrees, and the degrees matter. Chickens, and also turkeys, have been bred to maximize breast meat to the misery-inducing degree I described earlier, and if one's goal is to minimize animal suffering I think the inevitable conclusion is that we should stop producing those breeds. This seems to me to be basically analogous to pug dogs, which often have difficulty breathing due to overbreeding for that squashed in nose.

    But this is not all breeds of chicken or turkey. More traditional breeds, although not necessarily capable of surviving in the wild, can have quite good lives on a farm. In the case of chickens they produce eggs well - although not as efficiently as the modern layer breeds, which basically lay eggs so fast their skeletal structure can collapse from calcium depletion - and can be killed for pretty reasonable amounts of meat. You won't get 8 oz. breasts from most of them, but there's plenty of good eating to be had. Turkeys are the same, heritage breeds skew closer to wild but still taste fine. You just won't be able to buy turkey breasts the size of half a ham.

    Now of course not being bred to the point of inherent physical misery is no guarantee that an animal's life (and death for that matter) isn't horrible. A Buff Orpington - a delightful, beautiful and relaxed breed of chicken I had the pleasure of raising as a child - will still have a crap life in a confinement operation.

    The bottom line is that I think it is in principle possible to raise and slaughter animals humanely. There are two vital caveats to this. Firstly the possibility of doing something ethically is different from actually doing so, and with animal production unless you have strong evidence of ethical action you should assume none is being taken. If you order chicken or eggs at a restaurant, that chicken is going to have lived it's short miserable life in hell. This also goes for pigs - which are about as intelligent and emotionally complex as dogs - although cows generally have somewhat higher quality of life.

    Secondly it's going to be more expensive. Like way more expensive, to the point where anybody buying more ethically produced animal products is going to be buying less of them, and lower income people will be priced out of them entirely. I basically don't buy chicken, because the only chicken I feel comfortable buying is like $10 a pound, and chicken just doesn't taste good enough to justify the expense.

    Left purely to my own devices, I'm pretty much a vegetarian. I find cooking without meat is about as easy and good as cooking with meat, and the moral valance of supper tasting 3% better is less than the misery endemic to modern meat production. Eggs and dairy are harder, although before i started dating again I was making inroads on dairy. On the other hand I eat meat with my girlfriend, so apparently I rank a friction free supper slightly higher than avoiding that bit of suffering. Honestly i don't feel great about that.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    What they're talking about is a price rise.
    Yeah, supply and demand, that's the natural result. Chicken gets a bit more expensive. Honestly, that isn't so terrible, as chicken is already one of the more affordable meats.

    Lotta stuff rising in price this year.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    ElfPirate

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    If Big Meat didn't screw over everybody from farmer to end-consumer they might not be having so many issues.

    The life of a contract chicken farmer it turns out isn't much better than the chickens' you raise.

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by farothel View Post
    Chicken flavoured soy, like they do in Shadowrun. That would be the solution. It tastes like chicken and it's better for the environment. I'm sure that there are ways to do that, although I wouldn't know how myself.
    Not just soy, but also mycoprotein (processed mycelium) from NatVat.
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Is there a chicken version of Impossible Beef?

    I mean, it won't be wings, of course.
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Is there a chicken version of Impossible Beef?

    I mean, it won't be wings, of course.
    There's a fake chicken they sell at my local food co-op, which substitutes well for cooked chicken in stirfry or chicken noodle soup. It's got a fibrous texture and everything, so it lacks tofu's homogeneous, sort of nonexistent mouth feel, and is honestly pretty similar to chicken, although it helps that chicken is the blandest meat in the cosmos. I like to pan cook it with onions and pineapple then stick tha thg in a giant tortilla shell. Good with ketchup.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Hopefully, rising prices for chicken meat means non-factory chickens become more competitive. After all, they won't be having increased production costs because factory-chicken can't cover their demand and so they don't need to raise prices.

    Though I guess in practice we'll just see more chicken factories being build.
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    When I look at my local grocer, they have four different brands offering imitation chicken -- three soy based, one mycoprotein based.

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    If I want to eat soy, I'll eat soy.

    I really don't see the point in packaging it as fake meat.
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    If I want to eat soy, I'll eat soy.

    I really don't see the point in packaging it as fake meat.
    It's a tradition that goes back a very long time . Also see here . Buddhist monks who took vows of vegetarianism hadn't always been monks, and some of them still remembered the taste of meat. Hence the invention of seitan, a wheat gluten, which could act as a meat substitute. Something like a cardboard cigarette, I imagine.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2021-05-04 at 04:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by snowblizz View Post
    If Big Meat didn't screw over everybody from farmer to end-consumer they might not be having so many issues.

    The life of a contract chicken farmer it turns out isn't much better than the chickens' you raise.
    Yep. Numbers are from memory, but you're looking at about $400k in investments for a $30k-$40k/year wage. Big Ag (Tyson, Pilgrim's, Sanderson, at least around here) supplies the baby chicks. You buy feed from the suppliers they approve, and grow according to their methods. You then sell the live chickens to them at the end of the growth period, and they pay you. If something happens in between, well, that's on you. It's structured to offload the risk of growing.

    I mean, if you can do that as a side gig to another job or other work, it's a good supplement - but if the air conditioning goes down in summer or the heater in winter, you could be out tens of thousands of dead chickens.

    Note: The actual numbers are probably different - I'm not sure if the financing on the chicken houses plays in to the take-home wages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Hopefully, rising prices for chicken meat means non-factory chickens become more competitive. After all, they won't be having increased production costs because factory-chicken can't cover their demand and so they don't need to raise prices.

    Though I guess in practice we'll just see more chicken factories being build.
    Pasture-raised chicken is $3+/lb (no weird chemicals and stuff), but you can buy factory farm chicken for under $1/lb.
    Leaving aside inflation, food is under-priced and the problem won't go away until food prices rise. The healthiest, best-raised food - the stuff people ate 100 years ago - is the most expensive.
    Side note: I've read that many vegetables and grains actually have less nutrient content than they used to, due to changes in growing & soil management practices. Citation needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by someone
    It takes a year to raise chickens to the appropriate age and size for sending them to market.
    Meat birds are ready at about 10-12 weeks. Less in a factory, more on pasture.

    I have a DVD class series by Joel Salatin (if you like sustainable/regenerative ag, you probably know who he is - if not, look him up). One of the things he discusses is marketing and selling meat from your farm/ranch, and their experiences. He has a relatively large operation and client base. They had a lot of people just wanting to buy chicken breasts... easy to cook versus de-boning an entire bird. He ended up pricing it so that you could either buy the whole bird, or just the breasts, for essentially the same price.

    Quite a few people went for it. He then has a bunch of de-breasted birds come butchering day, which means more wings and other bits to sell.
    --

    Cashflow and financing are important. There's a Joel Salatin lecture on how you can make $60k on 20 acres with pigs (if you have buyers and the tools). It requires a cash throughput of, IIRC, over $200k over the space of a year to achieve that return due to feed costs.

    --
    I'm in chicken farm country and currently have 2 steers, 2 pigs, and 2 bee hives. Fowl is on the radar as a strong possibility for next year.
    Take home price for my beef from last year ended up being around $6.50-$7/lb, organic grass-fed, high quality, no grain, no GMO, beef. The steers I got 3 weeks ago are already spoken for (butchering next summer) except for the 1/2 that we are keeping for ourselves.

    My limiting factor is more acreage, and at $3,000-$4,000/acre I don't plan to invest in 10-20 more acres of pasture to support my 1 hour per day or less side hustle of being a farmer/rancher. My 1.5 year cattle cycle saw me making about $10/hr, excluding the cost of the electric fencing (1-time investment as long as lightning doesn't fry another energizer) and all the general infrastructure (~3800' of buried water lines, portable shade/watering trailer, the well, etc.). I should qualify for a property tax exemption based on this starting next year, which may save me about $900 per year or +$3 per hour effective wage on the cattle, which will be pretty nice. The steers this year need a double wire instead of single though (different breed, smart enough to realize they can jump a single line at 30"), so my labor is going up.
    Last edited by J-H; 2021-05-05 at 03:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    Side note: I've read that many vegetables and grains actually have less nutrient content than they used to, due to changes in growing & soil management practices. Citation needed.
    I've seen that claim, and as a trained professional gardener, I find it sounding very dubious. The only way I could see that being true is modern crop breeds having a slightly higher water content compared to the dry mass, but that really would only increase transportation costs. Fruits might be a bit heavier, but then you just eat 510 grams instead of 500 grams to get the same amount of food into your body.
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    If I want to eat soy, I'll eat soy.

    I really don't see the point in packaging it as fake meat.
    Then ignore the "fake meat" part. These products are just different types of processed products from the raw material of soy.

    And what's wrong with that? Different types of bread, pastry and so on are just different types of processed products rom raw materials like wheat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode View Post
    Then ignore the "fake meat" part. These products are just different types of processed products from the raw material of soy.

    And what's wrong with that? Different types of bread, pastry and so on are just different types of processed products rom raw materials like wheat.
    Absolutely. And it's also done to ease people who are use to eating meat into eating something else. I've discovered a few of those 'fake meat' type products which I like very much and now I eat those a couple of times a week, therefore lowering my meat consumption.
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    Side note: I've read that many vegetables and grains actually have less nutrient content than they used to, due to changes in growing & soil management practices. Citation needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    I've seen that claim, and as a trained professional gardener, I find it sounding very dubious. The only way I could see that being true is modern crop breeds having a slightly higher water content compared to the dry mass, but that really would only increase transportation costs. Fruits might be a bit heavier, but then you just eat 510 grams instead of 500 grams to get the same amount of food into your body.
    Some time ago I've watched documentary on tomatoes production (although I don't remember the title), in which there was shown that due to modification of tomatoes nearly all modern tomatoes sold in groceries have almost no nutrient content, in fact they are practically unripe. Normal ripe tomato rots in c.a. 5 days, and since that is quite a problem in transportation and for business the scientist were looking up to extend that and the team that managed it has done this through "turning off" the gene responsible for it to go ripe. And in a result tomatoes now don't have much of nutrients in them and are bitter.

    Now whenever I buy some vegetables I think about that and I'm wandering what else could be modified in similar way, for example I just have found in my grocery the carrots that costs 10x more then standard ones but are much more sweet and tasty, and even looks like pictures of carrots from the books (long, slimy), when most "standard" carrots that are sold are more "bulky" and I'm wandering whether they are not modifies also somehow (of course it also possible that this more sweat one was modified).

    The problem is that since there is no precise definition of what tomato or any other vegetable exactly is, as long as it looks like one you can market it this way. And with food price rising many people may not even notice what you are doing, as we are raised that tomato is a tomato and there is no way that any other tomato is somehow different
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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Here's a link talking about the topic and citing several studies.
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...UTRITION-LOSS/
    They studied U.S. Department of Agriculture nutritional data from both 1950 and 1999 for 43 different vegetables and fruits, finding “reliable declines” in the amount of protein, calcium, phosphorus, iron, riboflavin (vitamin B2) and vitamin C over the past half century
    There have likely been declines in other nutrients, too, he said, such as magnesium, zinc and vitamins B-6 and E, but they were not studied in 1950 and more research is needed to find out how much less we are getting of these key vitamins and minerals.

    The Organic Consumers Association cites several other studies with similar findings: A Kushi Institute analysis of nutrient data from 1975 to 1997 found that average calcium levels in 12 fresh vegetables dropped 27 percent; iron levels 37 percent; vitamin A levels 21 percent, and vitamin C levels 30 percent. A similar study of British nutrient data from 1930 to 1980, published in the British Food Journal,found that in 20 vegetables the average calcium content had declined 19 percent; iron 22 percent; and potassium 14 percent. Yet another study concluded that one would have to eat eight oranges today to derive the same amount of Vitamin A as our grandparents would have gotten from one.
    It'd be interesting to see if there are any studies showing the opposite effect (more nutrition over time). I haven't actively checked for this.

    Soil ecology is a very big and under-the-radar topic. Elaine Ingham is one of the experts on this, and I'll probably get her book eventually, but haven't yet. What I have been taught is that plants don't directly uptake most of their nutrients from the soil. They trade sugars and other substances with fungus and bacteria in the soil for some of those minerals in a complex interdependent web. When that web is destroyed or damaged by excessive plowing, chemical fertilizers, etc., it damages their ability to uptake nutrients naturally. This is part of why having a high organic matter content in your soil is important for good growth.

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    We've already done that through breeding, to the point where meat chickens can barely walk by the time they reach maturity. I've honestly seldom seen an animal as absolutely wretched looking as a modern meat chicken, even when they have an otherwise pretty much ideal existence with plenty of space, food, and time out of doors.
    On the topic of breeding horrible chickens, I am always confused that we haven't over-bred them even more.
    I might be overestimating the possibilities of selective breeding, but why do these chickens still have legs? Why do they still have wings, or feathers?

    With 10 weeks to maturity, the past century of bio-industry has produced 600 generations of chickens.

    Isn't 600 generations enough to breed feathers away? It's not like chickens who live with millions in an industrial barn actually need feathers. Or legs. The legs they have barely function anyway. Wouldn't a chicken without legs be preferable over one with hurting legs?

    Heck, what do these bio-industry chickens still need a head for? Can't we breed a chicken without a head?


    Bio-industry chickens are horrible, unethical creatures. But I think that if we breed them even further, to the point where they're just chicken breasts that we attach to a tube with food, that would actually be more ethical. They would be almost indistinguishable from lab-grown meat.

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Murk View Post
    On the topic of breeding horrible chickens, I am always confused that we haven't over-bred them even more.
    I might be overestimating the possibilities of selective breeding, but why do these chickens still have legs? Why do they still have wings, or feathers?

    With 10 weeks to maturity, the past century of bio-industry has produced 600 generations of chickens.

    Isn't 600 generations enough to breed feathers away? It's not like chickens who live with millions in an industrial barn actually need feathers. Or legs. The legs they have barely function anyway. Wouldn't a chicken without legs be preferable over one with hurting legs?

    Heck, what do these bio-industry chickens still need a head for? Can't we breed a chicken without a head?


    Bio-industry chickens are horrible, unethical creatures. But I think that if we breed them even further, to the point where they're just chicken breasts that we attach to a tube with food, that would actually be more ethical. They would be almost indistinguishable from lab-grown meat.
    For evolution to take place you first need mutation to occur which then would be transferred to offspring, and mutations (it want' be change in 1 gene probably) needed to get animal to loose legs/fathers would probably need to be quite extensive, and probably result in more change then just this one.

    Not to say the industry is probably using "single group of parents" for many of batches of young Chicks, so even if you had 600 new "batches" of chicks, that wouldn't translate to 600 generations. Moreover It's possible that the chickens used for fertilization living in quite different condition then ones that are used for meat.
    "By Google's own reckoning, 60% of the ads that are charged for are never seen by any human being – literally the majority of the industry's product is a figment of feverish machine imaginations." Pluralistic

    The bots are selling ads to bots which mostly bots are viewing, We really are living in XXI century.

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Murk View Post
    On the topic of breeding horrible chickens, I am always confused that we haven't over-bred them even more.
    I might be overestimating the possibilities of selective breeding, but why do these chickens still have legs? Why do they still have wings, or feathers?

    With 10 weeks to maturity, the past century of bio-industry has produced 600 generations of chickens.

    Isn't 600 generations enough to breed feathers away? It's not like chickens who live with millions in an industrial barn actually need feathers. Or legs. The legs they have barely function anyway. Wouldn't a chicken without legs be preferable over one with hurting legs?

    Heck, what do these bio-industry chickens still need a head for? Can't we breed a chicken without a head?


    Bio-industry chickens are horrible, unethical creatures. But I think that if we breed them even further, to the point where they're just chicken breasts that we attach to a tube with food, that would actually be more ethical. They would be almost indistinguishable from lab-grown meat.
    Feathets protect a bird's skin, which is generally petty delicate. Since a confinement bird spends most of its life in a giant pile of feces, skin protection is absolutely necessary; as it is ammonia burns are a large problem.

    Similarly legs keep the bird out if the feces at least some of the time. Chicks also have to hatch, a process which is probably assisted by having legs*. Also people eat chicken legs, they're less valuable than the breasts, but not valueless.

    Heads are useful on account of having brains, which are fairly necessary for things like living.

    If your goal is just producing chicken breasts, that's cultured meat, not the end result of any believable process of selective breeding.

    *A bird starts its life in what amounts to an an underwater spelunking emergency with very limited air supplies that it escapes by hitting things with its face, and we act like it's a huge accomplishment when our offspring can hold their heads up. Birds are 100% effing metal.
    Last edited by warty goblin; 2021-05-06 at 10:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    There's a fake chicken they sell at my local food co-op, which substitutes well for cooked chicken in stirfry or chicken noodle soup. It's got a fibrous texture and everything, so it lacks tofu's homogeneous, sort of nonexistent mouth feel, and is honestly pretty similar to chicken, although it helps that chicken is the blandest meat in the cosmos. I like to pan cook it with onions and pineapple then stick tha thg in a giant tortilla shell. Good with ketchup.
    The bland taste is largely a factory chicken thing. You get much more flavor from a more naturally raised chicken. Sort of buttery.

    Unfortunately, the factory farming method is pretty essential if you want the dirt cheap prices. Your standard factory chicken is what, $1.50/lb, whereas a more naturally raised chicken is probably going to be more like $8/lb. In part, it's because factory meat birds are genetically a lot different, packing on a ton of weight fast, and also because of the lifestyle. Even stuff marketed as "free range" may still involve breeds optimized for rapid weight gain.

    Ultimately, it's just really hard to grow a living animal and get it to market for less than $1.50/lb. Actual prices may vary somewhat depending on where you live, this is just a rough example. Farming in general doesn't have a ton of money in it...mad respect to those who make it work, of course, but overall, the proportion of budget spent on food has largely decreased for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by asda fasda View Post
    Some time ago I've watched documentary on tomatoes production (although I don't remember the title), in which there was shown that due to modification of tomatoes nearly all modern tomatoes sold in groceries have almost no nutrient content, in fact they are practically unripe. Normal ripe tomato rots in c.a. 5 days, and since that is quite a problem in transportation and for business the scientist were looking up to extend that and the team that managed it has done this through "turning off" the gene responsible for it to go ripe. And in a result tomatoes now don't have much of nutrients in them and are bitter.
    There are an absolute ton of varieties of, well, almost any vegetable, with significant differences between them. Generally speaking, anything you can find in a supermarket will be a variety that at least ships decently well, which often has some tradeoffs. It's not really anything malevolent, so much as that there's no real perfect vegetable. Many breeds are simply unsuitable for shipping across country.

    But yeah, if you do your own gardening, you can often get some tastier stuff than you'll find in the supermarket.

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    Default Re: Moar Chicken needed

    There are entire species of fruits that you can't buy at a supermarket because they don't ship well, or don't work well with commercial picking... like paw-paws, which have a shelf life of about 3 days but are supposedly like a banana custard. I'm still trying to find someone who has some so I can try before I plant.

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