What better compliments a Wizard a Fighter or Ranger?

[eyebreaker7]

Making up a gestalt drow wizard / fighter or ranger. I know it's all just a matter of opinion but why do you think one is better than the other? A fighter gets a ton of feats while the ranger gets spells and an animal companion. A weaker one but it's there. Those are just the main things that come to mind right away. I'm looking for input please :)
He's a drow high noble that is one of a few survivors after his city was attacked by another city. He has his drow innate abilities plus the ones for being a noble, plus a house insignia so maybe he doesn't need the ranger spells? He does have to find a new mount as well as a new place to go so a ranger would be better suited for that. Pluses and minuses for both. Thoughts?

I'm re-reading about the gestalt characters but don't see anything about gaining feats, just skills. Do you gain a feat for BOTH classes on the levels you get a normal feat selection? Not bonus ones.

[Ger. Bessa]

It depends on how you plan to mesh both.

Are you primarily a wizard, and if so what kind of wizard ? Blaster, Battlefield controler, Summoner, Generalist, Debuffer...

Or are you a fighter and using spells to buff yourself or unload your spell slots in your attacks.

What kind of weapon do you plan to use ? 2 handed ? Dual wielding ? Ranged ? Spell damage ? Polymorph ?

In vacuum i'd say ranger because of Ref saves, Skill points and skills, ASF and access to divine wands. Fighter gives you the feats to reach a specific build and the Drow fighter ACF. So Ranger if you plan to take a caster prestige class and Fighter if you take a fighter prestige class.

[Anthrowhale]

Access to fighter bonus feats is granted by second level wizard spells (Mirror Move or Heroics). Given that, skills and refl saves seem like a better compliment to me. The Ranger AC scales badly so you may want to trade it away for wildshape. Ranger spells are ok, although they come on late.

[Bayar]

I'm re-reading about the gestalt characters but don't see anything about gaining feats, just skills. Do you gain a feat for BOTH classes on the levels you get a normal feat selection? Not bonus ones.

No, you get normal feats based on your character level. So if you would be a wizard 3/ranger 3 gestalt, you'd still be a level 3 character, thus only a single feat at level 3.

[eyebreaker7]

Are you primarily a wizard, and if so what kind of wizard ? Blaster, Battlefield controler, Summoner, Generalist, Debuffer...

Or are you a fighter and using spells to buff yourself or unload your spell slots in your attacks.

What kind of weapon do you plan to use ? 2 handed ? Dual wielding ? Ranged ? Spell damage ? Polymorph ?

In vacuum i'd say ranger because of Ref saves, Skill points and skills, ASF and access to divine wands. Fighter gives you the feats to reach a specific build and the Drow fighter ACF. So Ranger if you plan to take a caster prestige class and Fighter if you take a fighter prestige class.

He's a 2-handed katana wielder that primarily uses his spells to buff. Not working toward any specific prestige class. Never played one before honestly.

I know I'm going to kick myself when you tell me but what does ASF and ACF mean? Arcane spell failure? Not sure about ACF. Did you mean ACP for armor check penalty?

Access to fighter bonus feats is granted by second level wizard spells (Mirror Move or Heroics). Given that, skills and refl saves seem like a better compliment to me. The Ranger AC scales badly so you may want to trade it away for wildshape.

Whats "Mirror Move or Heroics"? Trade it away for wildshape? You mean go Wizard/Druid instead?


This is the pic I'm baseing him off of
https://village.photos/images/user/c...aac2155fe6.jpg

If I go ranger I'd use one of the variants for a 2-hander, but I'm thinking fighter might turn out better in the long run? I had originally wanted to go barbarian/wizard but as was mentioned on here, barbarian doesn't really fit as drow. Especially a noble. lol

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Given these are the two options...

Fighter pros: More+better bonus feats, better hit die, potential to do Zhentarim Warrior and/or Dungeoncrasher.
Ranger pros: Good reflex, 6+int skills, more+better class skills, some nice spells (look through SpC), some half-decent features that can become incredible ACFs like Wildshape Ranger

If you want to be a gish who smashes people into walls, go Dungeoncrasher Fighter//Wizard/Wizard PrC. If you want to be a wildshaping gish, go Wildshape Ranger//Wizard/Wizard PrC, possibly throwing in Master Transmogrofist and wizard levels to make up for lost CL. If you don't want to gish, go Ranger//Wizard/Wizard PrC.

[H_H_F_F]

He's a 2-handed katana wielder that primarily uses his spells to buff. Not working toward any specific prestige class. Never played one before honestly.

I know I'm going to kick myself when you tell me but what does ASF and ACF mean?


Whats "Mirror Move or Heroics"? Trade it away for wildshape? You mean go Wizard/Druid instead?


This is the pic I'm baseing him off of
https://village.photos/images/user/c...aac2155fe6.jpg

If I go ranger I'd use one of the variants for a 2-hander, but I'm thinking fighter might turn out better in the long run? I had originally wanted to go barbarian/wizard but as was mentioned on here, barbarian doesn't really fit as drow. Especially a noble. lol

ASF usually stands for arcane spell failure (from armor), while ACF stands for "alternative class feature" - there are a lot of those in different books, allowing you to trade in a class feature for another. A relevant example here, which answers one of your other questions, is the ranger ACF from unearthed arcana, swapping out fighting style feats for fast movement and (limited) wildshape. It's generally considered more powerful, but if you're interested mainly in katana combat I'd say it's not a great fit.

Mirror move and heroics are spells that grant temporary fighter feats.

What books do you have access to? There are more options out there than fighter and ranger.

[eyebreaker7]

I have a lot of the books and also some in PDF as well. I just haven't looked through a lot of them. I haven't played in a really long time. I just enjoy making stuff up. Hopefully one day soon I can put them to good use. lol. As for the books, well, right now most of them are packed because I'm in between moving right now. I'm temporarily at my brother's and his wife's. Don't get to move in to my apartment until mid June unfortunately.

[H_H_F_F]

I have a lot of the books and also some in PDF as well. I just haven't looked through a lot of them. I haven't played in a really long time. I just enjoy making stuff up. Hopefully one day soon I can put them to good use. lol. As for the books, well, right now most of them are packed because I'm in between moving right now. I'm temporarily at my brother's and his wife's. Don't get to move in to my apartment until mid June unfortunately.

Oh, so not for an actual game (for now) - and therefore no limitations. Good to know.

Have you looked into Tome of Battle? A warblade would also be a good gestalt option for a wizard, I'd think.

[eyebreaker7]

No access to Tome of Battle unfortunately :(

[Anthrowhale]

Whats "Mirror Move or Heroics"? Trade it away for wildshape? You mean go Wizard/Druid instead?

Mirror Move is here. It's minute/level for several feats you see demonstrated. Heroics is in Spell Compendium. It's 10 minutes/level for any fighter bonus feat.

Also, wildshape ranger is here. However, running around as a small or medium animal may not fit your character concept very well. For general versatility it is however quite useful at lower levels. At higher levels, polymorph effects are typically superior.

[Asmotherion]

I'd go fighter, and build him as a ToB using Gish Beast using the Fighter's bonus feats.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Honestly? Both.

Mundane classes are almost universally front-loaded and have almost nothing worth bothering with on the back-end (while casters are getting high level, even more reality-breaking spells), so you'd be best off taking a few levels in each (like, say, ranger 2/dungeon crasher fighter 6) then following up those with more dips (such as chaos monk 2/spirit lion totem, whirling frenzy barbarian 1).

Dungeon crasher can keep you relevant up to level 6, and if you're leaning into Intimidate really hard, you might even be able to get up to level 9 with the Zhentarim fighter ACF. Ranger can get up to level 10 if you're hitting up mystic ranger (Dragon Magazine #336, p105). Doesn't really go past level 10, though, since that's when you stop gaining spell levels. Combos very well with wizard if you take the Sword of the Arcane Order feat so you can use your wizard spellbook for both your wizard and ranger spells.

Wizard 5 / wizard PrCs 15 // arcane mystic ranger 2 / dungeon crasher fighter 2 / arcane mystic ranger 8 / chaos monk 2 / spirit lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian 1 / dungeon crasher 4 / whatever you want 1. Twiddle with the order of the levels until you're happy.

Maybe consider taking that remaining level in spellthief with Master Spellthief to stack your caster levels? You could take it first so you get all the benefits from the beginning, and like ranger, it has 6+Int skill points (which are multiplied by x4 at first level).

(Go half-drow and refluff that you're full drow from a weaker bloodline, so you don't have to deal with all the LA for all the, admittedly cruddy, drow abilities.)

[Darg]

Ranger is probably better. The only real advantage a fighter has is that they have freedom to choose their bonus feats and the use of heavy armor. A lot of people also tend to discount a ranger's capability of using a spiked shield as the off hand weapon for their TWF. You also get endurance as a bonus feat, putting you on track for steadfast determination, indomitable soul, and die hard. A one level dip into fighter can get you the armored savant acf which can possibly let you use mithral full plate as light armor. Combine that with strongarm bracers and oversized two weapon fighting and your ability to dish out damage TWF damage jumps tremendously. Personally, I like to use Blood-spiked charger.

[eyebreaker7]

Ranger is probably better. The only real advantage a fighter has is that they have freedom to choose their bonus feats and the use of heavy armor. A lot of people also tend to discount a ranger's capability of using a spiked shield as the off hand weapon for their TWF. You also get endurance as a bonus feat, putting you on track for steadfast determination, indomitable will, and die hard. A one level dip into fighter can get you the armored savant acf which can possibly let you use mithral full plate as light armor. Combine that with strongarm bracers and oversized two weapon fighting and your ability to dish out damage TWF damage jumps tremendously. Personally, I like to use Blood-spiked charger.

I'm going with a 2-handed fighting style and using a katana. And since he's also a Wizard he wont be wearing full plate or using a shield. I might use some twilight armor now that I know about it though, I have a ranger with a sword & shield style fighting somewhere on this computer though. lol. I like the spiked shield and improved shield bash with it. I just need to find my rules for ranger variants so I can look at the options for that. The fighter gts a ton of bonus feats so that's very attractive.
I found steadfast determination but what is indomitable will? Everything I find on it looks either some weird prerequisite or is homebrew

Hmm. It appears I no longer have the 2-handed variant for the ranger. What is it called? I need to find it but don't know what it's called. lol
.

[Darg]

If you aren't going TWF or with ranged weaponry then fighter is definitely the better choice.

Indomitable Soul is a feat from the same book as Steadfast determination. Against mind affecting and fear will saves you roll 2d20 and pick the higher one. Makes it much less likely you'll fail your wills and similar to steadfast it makes it astronomically less likely to auto fail with a single nat 1.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you aren't going TWF or with ranged weaponry then fighter is definitely the better choice.

Indomitable Will is a feat from the same book as Steadfast determination. Against mind affecting and fear will saves you roll 2d20 and pick the higher one. Makes it much less likely you'll fail your wills and similar to steadfast it makes it astronomically less likely to auto fail with a single nat 1.

That's Indomitable Soul. Indomitable Will is a barbarian class feature...

[eyebreaker7]

[QUOTE=MaxiDuRaritry;25032653]That's Indomitable Soul./QUOTE]

Nice! I Like that feat!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fighter can get the Dungeoncrasher ACF in Dungeonscape, the Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels (reflavored if necessary), the Drow Fighter 1 substitution level in DotU if desired, and the Dead Levels class features. You can combine spells that bull rush with Dungeoncrasher, such as Melf's Unicorn Arrow in PH2. Intimidation from Zhentarim Soldier can be quite strong if you optimize for it. If you make your character a Deepwyrm Drow from Dragon Magic, basically a dragonblooded variant descended from a deep dragon, you can use the Dragonscale Husk ACF in that same book to improve your AC. Or use the Armored Mage ACF in CM to be able to cast spells in light armor and using a light (animated) shield.

Ranger can use the Strong-Arm fighting style in Dragon 326, page 97. That gets Power Attack at 3rd, Improved Sunder at 6th, and Great Cleave at 11th. Ranger also gets two good saves instead of one, and it gets six base skill points/level instead of two. You can also use the Arcane Hunter ACF in CM to have Favored Enemy: Arcanist.

[eyebreaker7]

Improved Sunder at 6th, .

That's a wasted feat I'll never use. I WANT the loot. lol. Yes I know it's being used against me. Not for long if I can help it. I prefer Imp Disarm.

[H_H_F_F]

That's a wasted feat I'll never use. I WANT the loot. lol. Yes I know it's being used against me. Not for long if I can help it. I prefer Imp Disarm.

Combat brute is an excellent feat, IMO, and requires improved sunder.

[Particle_Man]

Are you allowing gestalt characters to take prestige classes? Some DMs don't.

Anyhow, if you are looking at "covering weak spots" I would go for ranger, so that you would have all good saves. Also, having oodles of extra skill points is nice, whether you spend them on the ranger side (spot, listen and search are nice to have) or the wizard side (a better shot at getting *all* the knowledge skills if you really want to).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's a wasted feat I'll never use. I WANT the loot. lol. Yes I know it's being used against me. Not for long if I can help it. I prefer Imp Disarm.

There's other reasons to have that feat, like attacking a hill giant's (worthless) club or similar, or qualifying for other feats/PrCs. Granted I was more pushing for Fighter given how much it has to offer, especially the AC options, but Ranger definitely has at least one fighting style for going two-handed and shouldn't be written off.

[Rebel7284]

Here is my favorite gestalt gish built.

Martial Wizard 5/Swiftblade 1/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade +8/X 5
//
Factotum 5/Wizard +1/Factotum +3/Wizard +1/Factotum +2/Wizard +1/Factotum +1/Y 6

X can be Abjurant Champion, Y can be useful dips

- You get up to three standard actions per turn.
- You get Int to pretty much everything including initiative TWICE. You go first.
- Full Wizard casting
- Free metamagic from Spelldancer
- Factotum allows you to take Iajitsu focus, being great at being a Samurai
- Overcome any spell resistance, including possibly spell immunity as that's defined as "infinite spell resistance"
- Other great class features including a high miss chance, etc.

[Darg]

That's Indomitable Soul. Indomitable Will is a barbarian class feature...

Gah! Thanks.

Combat brute is an excellent feat, IMO, and requires improved sunder.

Combine it with shock trooper, leap attack, and driving attack for some extra hilarious fun.

[bean illus]

Doubling up on spells is fun. But it really depends on what it is that you want to do, and what level you are playing.

There are some feat chains that can only happen if you have tons of feats. By the time you squeeze them in, it's too late in the game.

A wizard getting so many bonus feats allows you to put all your fighter feats towards longer feat chains. The wizard doesn't need to be stronger, the character needs to do what you wanted to do. Would you like to cast spells into your sword, and strike at five or more targets per round with it? Because we can do that.

Here's an idea that needs a lot of feats. Mounted combat archery. It's hard to get, but with enough feats you get incredible mobility and range. if you put it on the mystic ranger, toss in whirling frenzy, and two levels of deepwood sniper and you become a crit engine also.
You' have spells that will make you and your mount either bigger or smaller, so that's not a problem.

The facto 11 idea is fun, and the Warblade is worth as many as 10-14 levels.

[Maat Mons]

ACFs to consider, some of them already mentioned:

Fighter

• Armored Mage (CM): Give up medium and heavy armor proficiency, ignore ASF chance for Wizard spells from light armor
• Armored Savant (DR355): Give up 1st-level bonus feat, less hampered by armor
• Sneak Attack (UA): Give up Fighter bonus feats for Sneak Attack as Rogue
• Zhentarim Fighter (CVweb): Gain Intimidation-related abilities

Ranger

• Favored Environment (UA): Don't gain Favored Enemy, gain bonuses to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival in dungeons and caverns
• Moon-Warded Ranger (DR340): Only fluff-apropriate for secret follower of Eilistraee; give up Combat Style for Wis to AC in light armor; give up Combat Style Mastery for immunity to mind-affecting effects
• Piscator Style (DR326): Replaces normal Combat Style choices, gain Improved Trip at 6th level
• Strong Arm Style (DR326): Replaces normal Comat Style choices, gain Power Attack at 2nd and Improved Sunder at 6th
• Trap Expert (DS): Give up Track feat for Trapfinding ability and Disable Device as class skill
• Urban Ranger (UA): Various changes, Hide in Plain Sight works anywhere

Also bear in mind that Endurance qualifies you for Steadfast Determination.

Wizard

• Aligned Spellcaster (DR357): Give up Familiar, add the Chaotic or Evil descriptor to all spells you cast
• Domain Granted Power (CC):Give up a bonus feat, gain the granted power of a domain ascosiate with your deity (Lolth's best domain power is from the Pride domain)
• Drow Spellcaster (DU): Specialize in spells with Chaotic, Compulsion, Darkness, Evil, and Fear descriptors instead of a school
• Eidetic Spellcaster (DR357): Give up Familiar and Scribe Scroll, can prepare spells without spellbook
• Elven Generalist (RotW): Gain 1 extra spell per day of your highest level, but can't spceialize
• Fighter Feats (UA): Replace normal Wizard bonus feat list with Fighter bonus feat list
• Planar Wizard (PlH): Give up 10th-level bonus feat, add the Chaotic or Evil descriptor to all spells you cast
• Variant Enchanter (UA): Give up bonus feats, gain Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, and Sense Motive as class skill, plus bonuses to these skills based on level
• Variant Illusionist (UA): Give up bonus feats, gain Hide as class skill, at 15th level gain Hide in Plain Sight

Personally, I'd go for Fighter, and trade the bonus feats for Sneak Attack. May as well trade medium and heavy armor proficiency for no arcane spell failure in light armor, since you're taking the Fighter levels anyway. And Zhentarim is a pure gain.

You've got a lot of options on the Wizard front. I'm inclined to suggest you trade your Familiar and Scribe Scroll for Eidetic Spellcaster, "specialize" in spells with the Chaos etc. descriptor, trade your 10th-leve bonus feat to make all your spells have the Chaos descriptor, and trade your 5th-level bonus feat to reroll 1s on saves (per the Pride domain).

[eyebreaker7]

ACFs to consider, some of them already mentioned:

Fighter

• Armored Mage (CM): Give up medium and heavy armor proficiency, ignore ASF chance for Wizard spells from light armor
• Sneak Attack (UA): Give up Fighter bonus feats for Sneak Attack as Rogue
  

Ranger

• Favored Environment (UA): Don't gain Favored Enemy, gain bonuses to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival in dungeons and caverns
• Trap Expert (DS): Give up Track feat for Trapfinding ability and Disable Device as class skill

Also bear in mind that Endurance qualifies you for Steadfast Determination.

Wizard

• Elven Generalist (RotW): Gain 1 extra spell per day of your highest level, but can't spceialize
• Variant Enchanter (UA): Give up bonus feats, gain Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, and Sense Motive as class skill, plus bonuses to these skills based on level

Personally, I'd go for Fighter, and trade the bonus feats for Sneak Attack. May as well trade medium and heavy armor proficiency for no arcane spell failure in light armor, since you're taking the Fighter levels anyway. And Zhentarim is a pure gain.

You've got a lot of options on the Wizard front. I'm inclined to suggest you trade your Familiar and Scribe Scroll for Eidetic Spellcaster, "specialize" in spells with the Chaos etc. descriptor, trade your 10th-leve bonus feat to make all your spells have the Chaos descriptor, and trade your 5th-level bonus feat to reroll 1s on saves (per the Pride domain).

I really like these options. Can you do more than one for a character? Or are you limited to just one? I'm guessing you can do as many as you want?
The Elven Generalist (RotW): Gain 1 extra spell per day of your highest level, but can't spceialize, does it ALWAYS have to be just your highest level sell as your option?
The Variant Enchanter (UA): Give up bonus feats, gain Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Gather Information, and Sense Motive as class skill, plus bonuses to these skills based on level I'm guessing it's a 1 for 1 deal? 1 bonus feat for one skill option added to your class as a class skill?
I hate to say it but I'm unfamiliar with some of the book sources abbreviations. Can you tell me what they are please? I know UA is Unearthed Arcana but the others I don't know. Is RotW Races of the Wild?

[Maat Mons]

You can combine as many alternative class features as you like, subject to the limitation that you can't trade out the same thing multiple times. So, for example, if you used one of the "give up your familiar" options, you couldn't take another "give up your familiar" option because you no longer have a familiar to give up.

The spell slot you gain from Elven Generalist is always of the highest level available to you. But you can use it to prepare a lower-level spell if you want. Using a higher-level slot for a lower-level spell is an option built into the system.

Variant Enchanter doesn't let you choose how many feats you give up. You give up all of them, including Scribe Scroll. You get all the listed skill as class skills right away at 1st level. At every level divisible by 5, you pick one of those skills to receive a +2 bonus. I mistakenly thought they all got the +2 bonus every 5 levels. Sorry. And you can't pick the same skill multiple times to stack the bonus higher than +2. That's another thing I misremembered. Sorry again. It's not as good as I was thinking.

CC = Complete Champion
CM = Complete Mage
CVweb = Champions of Valor web enhancement
DR# = Dragon Magazine, issue #
DS = Dungeonscape
DU = Drow of the Underdark
PlH = Planar Handbook
RotW = Races of the Wild
UA = Unearthed Arcana
SS = Sandstorm, Savage Species, Secrets of Sarlona, Shining South, Song and Silence, or possibly some other sibilant book

[King of Nowhere]

Making compliments probably goes under diplomacy, or perhaps bluff. In any case, neither is a class skill for fighters or rangers, so they'd have a hard time complimenting a wizard well. But of the two, the ranger has more skill points, so he has more chances to maxx those skills as much as he can to better compliment the wizard.

Oh! I guess you meant complementing!

Ducks