Gaining the same class feature multiple times

[Jowgen]

The TL; DR of this: what happens when we get the exact same class feature that grants an untyped bonus twice?

We have a 2nd level character of Barbarian 1, Ranger 1

We chain the following ACFs:

Spoiler: UA rules on these ACF for ref

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This variant simply swaps one or more of a class's features for one or more class features of another class. A class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects, except as noted below.

Barbarian: Hunter, Predator, Huntsman
Ranger: Predator, Huntsman

Spoiler: Hunter

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Lose: Rage, greater rage, indomitable will, tireless rage, mighty rage.

Gain: Favored enemy (as ranger), archery combat style, improved archery combat style, and archery combat style mastery (as ranger).

Spoiler: Predator

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Lose: Combat style, improved combat style, combat style mastery.

Gain: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian).

Spoiler: Huntsman

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Lose: Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions).

Gain: Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).

The End result is that we have gained the following:

Barbarian: Barbarian Fast Movement + [Barbarian Fast Movement, Favored Enemy] + [Monk AC, Monk Fast Movement, Favored Enemy, Track, Swift Tracker]
Ranger: Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy + [Barbarian Fast Movement] + [Monk AC, Monk Fast Movement, Favored Enemy, Track, Swift Tracker]

We gain Favored Enemy twice at first level and twice at second level, which per a similar thread I did recently should just result in seperate progressions.

Track we end up gaining 3 times, one can be switched out for the Urban version, but really it's just wasted space.

The Monk fast movements don't stack as they're enhancement bonus typed, plus it's moot since it comes live at 3rd.

The three Barbarian fast movements however are untyped.

And similarly with the Monk AC bonus, even though the Ninja version explicitly doesn't stack, the Monk version is still untyped. See the TL;DR at the start.

Any thoughts?

[liquidformat]

This doesn't work at all primarily because you have to ignore an important chunk of each entry for this to work.

Also in both cases even if we handwave and ignore the class requirements you still don't meet the Huntsman requirement by taking Predator as you aren't getting wild shape (all versions) you are getting subset wild shape (Small or Medium animals only). Barbarian Hunter doesn't meet the requirements for Predator since he doesn't gain the 'combat style' class feature he only gains the 'archery combat style' subset of it.

Hunter Barbarian
A barbarian who prefers crafty hunting over pure ferocity might choose to exchange his rage ability for certain ranger class features.
Gain: Favored enemy (as ranger); archery combat style, improved archery combat style, and archery combat style mastery (as ranger).
Lose: Rage, greater rage, indomitable will, tireless rage, mighty rage.

Predator Ranger
A ranger might forgo training in weapon combat in exchange for the ability to take animal form and move swiftly through the woodlands.
Gain: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian).
Lose: Combat style, improved combat style, combat style mastery.

Huntsman Druid
The druid might choose to give up her wild shape ability in exchange for becoming a swift and deadly hunter.
Gain: Bonus to Armor Class when unarmored (as monk, including Wisdom bonus to AC), fast movement (as monk), favored enemy (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), Track feat (as ranger).
Lose: Armor and shield proficiency, wild shape (all versions).

[Jowgen]

Variant class feature chaining is a pretty established pratice.

The foundation I believe lies in the "A class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects" line, by virtue which having a class feature allows us to count as the class for the purpose of other stuff, including taking another ACF on the back of it.

For Predator, it's the "all versions" bit that actually makes it work, as our "small and medium animals only" is still a version of Wild Shape. If it just said "Lose: Wild Shape" then we might have an issue.

Huntsman I do agree though is a grey area, as we do not have a choice in combat style. This comes up at times when looking to pick alternate combat styles on Huntsman Barbarians. It gets quite rule lawyery whether having "Archery Combat Style" qualifies you as having "Combat Style".

Regardless, my primary question of whether the exact same class feature, gained from different sources, granting an untyped bonus, can stack with itself.

[liquidformat]

Variant class feature chaining is a pretty established pratice.

The foundation I believe lies in the "A class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects" line, by virtue which having a class feature allows us to count as the class for the purpose of other stuff, including taking another ACF on the back of it.

Two things here, if we were talking about say the Complete Mage ACFs where they only specify the ability then and not the class its coming from then sure no issue there. However, the UA is a whole different animal, for one it specifies the base class the change is made to, and secondly they are not ACFs they are Variant classes.

Also as I already said adding in the rest of the line ", except as noted below" to what you have quoted shuts down a lot of these swaps. Even if we ignored the fact that these are variant classes and not ACFs if you are not getting the entire class feature like in the case of wild shape or combat style mastery you can't trade it away because you don't have the actual class feature you have a variant of it.

[Jowgen]

Your assumptions are that the ACFs under the "Other Class variants" header are in fact fully fledged variant classes, same as those under the preceeding "Variant Character Classes", and that each of the variants can only be accessed by those the class denoted preceeding the description.

Under that reading, sure, none of this works (although it still doesn't answer the stacking question).

My position is that these variants simply swap one or more of that class's features for one or more class features of another class. They do not deal in classes (i.e. changes in skills, saves, BAB, etc.), but specifically class features, making them ACFs in my book. They may be listed per the classes that normally get those features, but membership in said classes are not a listed as a prerequestie for doing the feature swap, as you get with other ACFs.

Subsequently, my reading is that as long as you have the class feature of a class, then you are eligble for using these variants, and provided the ability is denoted as being [Ability, as Class-X]. For example, the Shapeshifter PrC from OA could trade out its WildShape and Proficiencies via Huntsmen.

I also don't know of any rule that would make discrepancies in the specifics of the ability preclude a swap so long as its denoted as equivalent, since that is what the mechanic checks for. For example, lets say you had to give up armor/shield proficiency as fighter, I don't think there's anything to preclude you from taking it when your fighter for whatever reason lacks tower shield proficiecy, or would allow you to keep an additional exotic shield proficency you got from fighter.

[Khedrac]

Regardless, my primary question of whether the exact same class feature, gained from different sources, granting an untyped bonus, can stack with itself.

Ignoring the legality of the builds, the answer to this part is a clear "No, unless the class feature states that it does".

Some class features have rules for its interaction with itself (e.g. most versions of evasion).

Others don't (presumably because it's not supposed to be possible to gain them twice).

As for those that give bonuses (e.g. monk AC) then they are the same bonus (even if you got it from two different routes) and a bonus never stacks with itself.

[Jowgen]

Ignoring the legality of the builds, the answer to this part is a clear "No, unless the class feature states that it does".

Some class features have rules for its interaction with itself (e.g. most versions of evasion).

Others don't (presumably because it's not supposed to be possible to gain them twice).

As for those that give bonuses (e.g. monk AC) then they are the same bonus (even if you got it from two different routes) and a bonus never stacks with itself.

In the absence of specific interaction rules, bonuses can statck with themselves, if untyped and from different sources.

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).

In the case of Monk AC and Barb Speed, we meet the (or no type at all) qualifier, so I think it's a question of whether they count as different or the same source.

[Elves]

Monk and swordsage AC bonus don't stack because they have the same name and same effect. That's even more true in this case because you're gaining the class features "as the other class", so it's literally the same feature.

Note the SRD/UA wording is "one or more of that class's features", not "a" class's features, and the ACF language in general is more class-specific than I'd expected. Checked this for the recent Cha to X thread I did.

[Jowgen]

Monk and swordsage AC bonus don't stack because they have the same name and same effect. That's even more true in this case because you're gaining the class features "as the other class", so it's literally the same feature.

We know for sure that the same spell doesn't stack with itself, and that you can't get the same unnamed bonus from taking a feat twice.

Things are less clear when it comes to class abilities though.

Ability name seems a poor indicator on whether abilities are the "same source", considering that just the PhB has two versions of Fast Movement that give different types of bonuses. The the same vial we could have the same effect but different names.

Monk and Swordsage AC bonus have the same name, but are quite different effects in that Monk requires "unarmored and unencumbered", Swordsage requires "light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield". Interestingly, Moon Warded ranger's Armor of the Senses sits in the middle, requiring "wears light armor or no armor".

Meanwhile, you can also get identical effects with different names, like Paladin Divine Grace and Witchunter Kami's Grace.

None of which I feel helps nail down where same name x same effect x different class falls.

Note the SRD/UA wording is "one or more of that class's features", not "a" class's features, and the ACF language in general is more class-specific than I'd expected. Checked this for the recent Cha to X thread I did.

Not sure which way this factors in?

EDIT: Did a RAW thread post on class features granting untyped bonus to same thing with same name or wording gained from different class levels stacking, and there Venger deemed it be different sources; presumably because they come from different class levels, with identical name/description not being a factor apparently.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Barbarian/Rogue gets Uncanny Dodge from both classes. The feature itself states that if this occurs, you just add your levels together for your effective class level for that feature. Same goes for a Paladin/Cleric and Turn Undead effective level and daily uses, you don't get twice as many uses for gaining it twice. So your Barbarian/Ranger that gets Monk AC bonus from both classes would add those levels together for your effective Monk level when determining the additional bonus that feature provides.

I'd say Favored Enemy works the same way, but gaining it twice from each class is redundant. This one is really up to your DM, I don't think Favored Enemy is strong enough to be worth fighting if you want to insist on gaining every instance of it. Our 3.5 group says Rangers get +2 at 1st and an additional +2 at each instance of the feature against all targets instead of picking anything, and still nobody plays Ranger.

Predator's Fast Movement says as a Barbarian so you would have the Fast Movement feature of the total Barbarian level, not Fast Movement that many times stacking. Multiple unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack by RAW, and the source is identical for all of those. You could trade one out for Pounce, and another for the Wolf Totem ACFs, if desired.

Regarding Track, most times you would get a redundant bonus feat that you already have as a racial bonus feat it can instead be swapped out for any feat you qualify for. A Frostblood Half-Orc has Endurance with this exact caveat, and if one takes Mystic Ranger they would get Endurance at Ranger 4, which is exactly the minimum level to get Sword of the Arcane Order. So if you gain Track as a racial bonus feat somehow (catch Lycanthropy after Barbarian 1, gain Ranger 1 while you have it, then get cured of it) you should be able to pick any feats you qualify for in place of the redundant Tracks.

[Elves]

Monk and Swordsage AC bonus have the same name, but are quite different effects in that Monk requires "unarmored and unencumbered", Swordsage requires "light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield". Interestingly, Moon Warded ranger's Armor of the Senses sits in the middle, requiring "wears light armor or no armor".

Here's the FAQ answer I was referencing:

"The swordsage’s AC bonus, allowing the swordsage to apply her Wisdom bonus to her armor class, mimics the ability of the monk’s AC bonus. Since these abilities share the same name and have the same effect, they will not stack."

Here the standard for being the same ability is same name + same benefit (regardless of the other specific restrictions around it), which seems fair enough. Kami's Grace and Armor of the Senses have the same effect but different names, so they stack with Divine Grace/AC Bonus.

None of which I feel helps nail down where same name x same effect x different class falls.

If an ability has the same name and effect, it's still the same ability. Being granted by a different class doesn't change anything about it.
(The benefit you gain from it might be different if it scales with your level, but that's not a difference in the ability itself.)

It also seems like you're applying a double standard. On the one hand, they're the same class feature, so you can take another class's ACF. On the other hand, they're different class features, so they stack. In other words, if you rule that you can take another class's ACF by trading out the same feature, I think you also have to conclude that they're the same feature for stacking purposes.

Not sure which way this factors in?

Whether ACF eligibility is determined solely by class feature or also by class. "That class" for the huntsman ACF is druid.

EDIT: Did a RAW thread post on class features granting untyped bonus to same thing with same name or wording gained from different class levels stacking, and there Venger deemed it be different sources; presumably because they come from different class levels, with identical name/description not being a factor apparently.

I understand why Venger tends not to cite sources since that's supposed to be the quick & easy questions thread, but assertions don't really make a difference.

So if you gain Track as a racial bonus feat somehow (catch Lycanthropy after Barbarian 1, gain Ranger 1 while you have it, then get cured of it) you should be able to pick any feats you qualify for in place of the redundant Tracks.

There are only a couple of specific cases like Frostblood that are stated to work this way. But what you can do is trade the redundant Track feat for trapfinding or urban tracking via ACF.

[Darg]

The problem with using swordsage and monk is that while the abilities use the same name, they definitely do not have the same effect. One is able to gain the wis to AC in light armor and the other gains an increasing untyped bonus by level. Edit: I don't have the errata memorized.

I do think that when it says "as x class" it means it's the same ability as that provided from the class. Meaning it's the same source and same effect and therefore doesn't stack. At best, they are separate instances of the effect and if one were to somehow be removed the other would still be in effect.

[Elves]

The problem with using swordsage and monk is that while the abilities use the same name, they definitely do not have the same effect. One is able to gain the wis to AC in light armor and the other gains an increasing untyped bonus by level.

Part of their effect is the same. The FAQ answer suggests that part of the ability overlaps while the rest presumably wouldn't.

The same issue came to light in the Cha to X thread. A number of fey have an "unearthly grace" ability that adds Cha to AC and saves. The Eldeen ranger PRC also gets an "unearthly grace" ability, but it only adds Cha to saves. If you had both, would they stack? My guess is no, because those parts of the ability are redundant -- same name and same effect.

I do think that when it says "as x class" it means it's the same ability as that provided from the class. Meaning it's the same source and same effect and therefore doesn't stack. At best, they are separate instances of the effect and if one were to somehow be removed the other would still be in effect.

I don't even think class is factored into "source" for the purpose of stacking. The source is the ability itself. The class is a framework that delivers abilities ("class features"), but being delivered by a certain class doesn't intrinsically change anything about a given ability.

[Jowgen]

Just as a general point, I feel that for the purposes of examples, Fast Movement is a better ability to cite than Monk-ish AC bonuses. Lots of classes get Fast Movement, some typed some untyped, some called fast movement some called something different.

I don't even think class is factored into "source" for the purpose of stacking. The source is the ability itself. The class is a framework that delivers abilities ("class features"), but being delivered by a certain class doesn't intrinsically change anything about a given ability.

This is how is how it works for feats, quite explicitly IIRC, with duplicate feats not stacking, but the issue of what constitutes a "source" is more complicated in the current context.

When defining what a "source" is, it clearly can't work by name. There are too many fast movements that work differently out there, them not stacking would be rather dysfunctional.

Working by what the ability does might be better, in which case lets say Divine/Kami's grace wouldn't stack, but even that's not a clear dividier. Between all the different Fast Movement class abilities out there, not to mention racial abilities, feats, items, spells and such that give speed boosts, distinguishing the minutae of which abilities would have the same name and wording and should stack would be a nightmare.

In contrast, looking at source by virtue of where the ability comes from is a very straight forward way to determine what the "source" of an untyped bonus is. Not to mention it's quite intuitive that "source" would mean "where it comes from". No resulting dysfunctions come to mind either.

In the absence of any rules text that specifies "same source" to mean one thing or another, I think most of the definitions readings can be considered valid, wherein I personally favour the most straightforward one.

3rd ed rules are more often than not a jumbled mess, but I do think that sometimes the simplest and most intuitive reading is best. Obox-ob's Razor and all that.

[Darg]

Part of their effect is the same. The FAQ answer suggests that part of the ability overlaps while the rest presumably wouldn't.

The same issue came to light in the Cha to X thread. A number of fey have an "unearthly grace" ability that adds Cha to AC and saves. The Eldeen ranger PRC also gets an "unearthly grace" ability, but it only adds Cha to saves. If you had both, would they stack? My guess is no, because those parts of the ability are redundant -- same name and same effect.


I don't even think class is factored into "source" for the purpose of stacking. The source is the ability itself. The class is a framework that delivers abilities ("class features"), but being delivered by a certain class doesn't intrinsically change anything about a given ability.

There was a thread in the last few months with a discussion about the Con to AC bonus of deep warden and FotF. The majority there believed that the bonus was a named bonus of "constitution."

Alternatively, FotF's Con to AC ability has the same name as the monk's and swordsages ability. Should it not stack? As you seem to understand, it's the effects that overlap. Not the abilities as a whole. So the +1 AC from the monk's AC Bonus would stay in effect and the FotF Con to AC would stack with the wis bonus.