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Thread: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
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2021-05-04, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
Originally Posted by Dragonus45
My complaint was mostly just being annoyed that the Asgardians were just aliens in the MCU….
One of the things I found difficult to enjoy about the first Wonder Woman movie was that the main character and her main opponent were both presented as literal gods. I have a hard time rooting for that.
Knowing that Thor is essentially mortal, even if vastly tougher and longer-lived, gives me at least a distant sense of affinity.
Originally Posted by Ramza00
…but Loki feels he was obligated to conquer earth, to civilize the lesser aged mortals.
Because that’s the one clear motivation we see for Loki throughout his MCU run—a raw craving for power and recognition. He very quickly admits this to Odin (“It is my birthright!”) and he never says anything about trying to civilize or otherwise improve the people of Earth. Loki was there for the conquest, nothing more.
Originally Posted by Beleriphon
The comics? Thanos is a Titan, like from the moon Titan….
When Thanos started talking about it as a green, lush, yet overpopulated world, I was just baffled.
Originally Posted by Ramza00
She is our sword lesbian* that we have to respect and stan. Illayana / Magik of the X-Men is now not the only famous character of this style / trope.
And is it the Eternals’ missing verb?
.Last edited by Palanan; 2021-05-04 at 05:22 PM.
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2021-05-04, 05:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
Well Celestials have upgraded lore recently. So let Rater202 correct me.
They are beings of pure psionic / otherworldly energy and there energy is merely anchored to this reality by their armors. They are gods with no form for they are beyond form, yet they have robot armor so they can be killed. Pretty much the D&D cosmology of the higher levels of gods and how they can manifest Avatars so mortals whether fighter or wizard can have something to kill.
But it gets complicated real fast for there is these bugs who can invert the Celestials and yadda, yadda, yadda, macguffins happened to remove the problem 12 issues after the problem is created from nowhere.
Sounds like real life colonialism to me, the thing I was comparing it too BS justification of what you are telling yourself, what you are telling others...
And the actual thing you are doing
Agreed.
Loki needs therapy for all his family now sees through his stuff. And everyone who is not family wants to kill him.
Bring on the Loki tv show!
Yeah there are multiple type of Eternals in the comics. Eternals that stayed on earth, and Eternals that went into space. Likewise the ones who went into space had like 2 more schisms. Thanos is part of the Eternals in Space and he is unlike the others in appearance and this caused Drama and Thanos has a tragic backstory about his parents hating him so he did a genocide.
One of the schisms of the Eternals in Space take place on our Saturn moon Titan. Remember this was the 70s when Space was new and all that jazz. Likewise you can connect Saturn and Titan to mythology and so on.
The MCU streamlined things as they should!
—————
Sidenote the Eternals in this movie, Ikarus and everyone else are the Earth Eternals so ignore the family drama stuff with Thanos and those toxic family stuff that caused some schisms.
What does “stan” mean here?
And is it the Eternals’ missing verb?
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Remember vibes are good, and fantatical fans are the worse for the vibes are no longer good vibes but unpleasant ones 😎Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-05-04 at 05:34 PM.
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2021-05-04, 05:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
Just to cover my ass, the following discussion is purely in the context of marvel comics and draws only from fictional source relating to the same.
In the comics it's a matter of Metaphysics.
You can be as strong as a god and as tough as a god and as fast as a god and as smart as a god and as good as magic as a god but if you don't have the "divine essence" then you're not a God.
In the comics, Storm claims to be a goddess because the women of her family going back generations on her matrilineal line were worshipped as such.
She is 100% truthful when she claims to be a goddess. Her family has divine ancestry, she has that divinity in her. (She also gets stronger when people prey to her or acknowledge her as a god. After she married T'challa her mother's religion was syncretized with the Panther Cult and the sudden influx of worship magnified her powers and gave her the ability to make portals out of lightning.)
Franklin Richards, mutant son of Mister Fantastic and the Invisible Woman, also claims to be a God, and he is correct to do so, he hs been acknowledged as Divine both by The Greiver at the end of All Things, a multiversal scale Cosmic Being, and Thor(who can sense the fundamental nature of supernatural beings, which he claims is a universal power of Gods.)
Magneto claims to be a God in House of X, but even though he's stronger than Storm as her strongest he is not a god because he does not have that divinity in him. Though personally I'm not gonna tell him that to his face.
Cosmic beings like the Phoenix Force are higher-order beings. They may or may not be divine, but they are not "Gods" in the sense that Thor or Hercules is a God.
Power does not make a God. Galactus actually takes offense when people refer to him as a God because he doesn't meet the strict qualifications despite his power."Sphinx! You share the folly of all your lowly species. You believe that power itself makes one a God! But even Galactus, to whom all is possible, even Galactus whose every passing whim becomes reality — even Galactus is no God."
Over Cosmic Principles we have Abstracts like Death, Eternity(Time), Infinity(Space) who are themselves just small fractions of self-named beings who embody those concepts on a grand scale. Eternity is also the embodiment of the Universe/part of theMultiverse.
Celestials are considered to e Gods, but their power vastly dwarfs that of most conventional deities. They, and the Progenitors(who are basically Evil Celestials) are accurate "The Gods of Gods."
Above The Abstracts, we have The Living Tribunal, a three-faced being who is almost Omnipotent and Almost Omniscient. There is only one Living Tribunal for the entire Multiverse, but he rarely interferes in mortal affairs because he is not allowed to.
Above the Living Tribunal, residing at the highest point in the Multiverse, a vast paradise of infinity love and Bliss, resides the One Above All, who is the Philosophic Ideal of a God: All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Seeing, present physically or metaphysically everywhere, and Inifntly Good. His only weapon is Love.
...Except His presence doesn't extend to th eBelow Place, and not even He knows the meaning of Life or the destiny of any given being. (His answer when asked is 'The Mystery Intrigues Me.')
It's left deliberately ambiguous if He is the omnipotent creator deity of any given religion legend, or mythology.
The One Above All is reflected by The One Below All, who resides in the Below Place. The Below Place is the platonic ideal of "Hell." Not Hell as in a lake of fire. Not Hell as in a city of Demons, there is no eternal torture..
But there's something missing. The One Above All is missing. You never notice his infinitely love until you realize that it's not there anymore and that feels wrong.
The One BElow All has been described in the Narrative as "Cosmic Satan" and "God's Hulk." It isn't truly sapient, it's just a ball of emotions and desires that can't take action but can possess and hollow out a mortal's soul to gain an Avatar that acts on its behalf.
Moving back up the ladder, the terms "Devil" and "Demon" are used interchangeably and there are lots of things that are considered demons, but "True" Demons are either manifestations of Malevolence or Divine Beings that have been corrupted. True Demons are parasitic beings who feed on the life, souls, or emotions of mortals and are repulsed or physically harmed by things like Love or genuinely pure souls. A Demon who was previously an Angel or other lesser divine being is not an angel anymore, but a Demon that was previously a God or higher level being retains their previous Status: Cthon is both a Demon and an Elder God.
Demons and Devils who are not "True" demons have similar powers but are not parasitic. A lot of them are mortals that became that way due to circumstances, such as Illyana 'Magick' Rasputina, Adrea Benton(formerly Mania, currently Scream,) and others are hybrids of metals nd true edemons, such as the Hellstroms.
Like True Demons, it is possible to be a Demon/Devil and a God simultaneously, such as the case of Laussa Odinsdottir who is both an Asgardian and a Fire demon os Musleplheim due to Odin and Frigga choosing the exact wrong time and place to have victory sex after killing Surtur, allowing Curtur's essence to possess the unborn child. That essence was eventually extracted, but Laussa is permenalty demonic regardless.
The difference between Gods and Demons who are not True Demons against seems to be academic, though when Thor realizes that The Hulk's power is growing to the point that he's close to Apotheosis he comments that he can't tell if he's becoming a God or a Devil.
Additionally, in the Marvel Universe, not all gods are created equal. The Warrior three will never be as strong as Thor or Lady Sif because Thor and Lady Sif have Major Divine Mantels while the Warriors three do not. They are gods, but they're not the gods of anything.
(Not all Mantles are created equal, either. You need to be the God of something major to have more than minor benefits.)
The Gods of different planets have biologies that are similar to the native lifeforms of those planets. It's usually one kind of god per planet, but the Earth has multiple tribes of Gods.
Technically, with the exception of the Vanir and the Aesir who are both collectively called "Asgardians" and whose differences are purely cultural, different tribes of deity are different species with different biologies.
An Asgardian has different physiology from an Olympian who has different physiology from a member of the Amatsu-Kami. For example, Olympians and Asgardians are both roughly equally strong on average but Asgardians are usually only about 3 times as durable as a normal human(about equal to spider-man) while Olympians are many times harder to hurt.
Take a gun to a random Asgardian and while it won't hurt them as much as a human you could still kill or seriously harm them. Frigga flat out says that there is not a thing in the ten realms that can't be killed if you shoot it enough during The War of The Realms
An Olympian you need something much more substantial.
And it continues on along those lines.
And that's everything I know.Last edited by Rater202; 2021-05-04 at 05:39 PM.
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2021-05-04, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
That's definetly an impressive start.
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2021-05-04, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
I'll stick with MCU since I don't know nearly as much as Rater on the comic side of things (nor quite honestly do I care to - that's a knock at the comics' sheer density rather than against any poster.) To summarize, I expect we won't get anything even approaching a clear MCU answer to this taxonomy until the Eternals themselves, anyperhaps not even then.
What we do have in MCU canon is the backstory of a single Celestial (Ego). I assume anyone in this thread has seen Guardians 2, but I'll spoil anyway just in case:
SpoilerWhen explaining his origins, Ego is very unclear as to where he came from (assuming he was being honest about his backstory of course) - only that he first existed as Light and consciousness, then learned to use that Light shape the molecules around him over millions of years. He was driven to seek out other life forms (suggesting at a bare minimum that there weren't any other Celestials around for him to talk to for some reason) - then upon meeting other lifeforms found that he was perpetually disappointed by them, concluded that he was the only life form that should exist, yadda yadda. That much at least is similar to his maniacal Genius Loci comics origin (though MCU Ego is in fact a pastiche of at least 4 other comic characters in addition to being the Living Planet itself.)
What I find particularly interesting about Ego though, and what I hope cosmic properties like the Eternals or Guardians 3 explore in greater depth, are two things:
(a) Before he even found Earth, the non-planet humanoid form Ego chose to fashion for traveling around the universe in was very close to our own. Even in the montage where we see Ego trying and failing to make celestial children with a wide variety of species, he depicts himself doing this in a decidedly human form, even with aliens where that wouldn't be particularly practical. This might have just been a stylistic choice for Quill's benefit, to help him better visualize his father's earlier attempts at instigating the Expansion plan... but that doesn't explain the second one:
(b) Of all the alien species Ego copulated with, none were capable of carrying the Celestial gene except humanity. This is the plot point that made Quill of all Ego's children special, and why he alone was spared rather than being devoured like the rest. (Incidentally, the pile of skulls in Ego's cavern is chock-full of easter eggs from other Disney properties - containing everything from the Rancor to a Gungan to a Korbinite to whatever race Stitch and Howard the Duck are etc. They didn't have the rights to the xenomorph and the predator at that time, otherwise those would have surely been down there too, but they do now.)
That second point indicates that humanity is special in some way - likely due to the Celestials messing with our great great great etc ancestors, which at least in the comics was part of what gave us the Eternals in the first place. That "humanity is special" plot point could be what we see more of in the Eternals or other cosmic films. (I wonder too if this is part of the reason MCU humanity tends to produce what appear to be universal constants like like the Sorcerer Supreme, the Scarlet Witch etc.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-05-04, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
Something I forgot to menton.
While all of Earth's deities in the MArvel Universe are different species in that they have different biologies, they have common ancestry in that they are all descendants or creations of Earth's Elder Gods(usually Gaea, who is literally every Earth Mother) who are in turn the creations of th eDemirug.
Some of them are the product of the union of Gaea and the Demiurge... Which I'm assuming was the result of magical bullcrap because the Demiurge is a time-traveling gay man.
Note: Thanks to this as well as reincarnation shenanigans, then if you ignore Jason Aaron's recon abt Tor's mom, Magneto is Thor's Great Great Grandfather.
The Demiurge, in his modern form prior to time travel Shenanigans and proper apotheosis, is Billy Kaplan, AKA Wiccan, AKA Asgardian, AKA Royal Consort and Court Wizard of the Kree-Skrull Alliance.(He's married to empower Hulkling) Billy Kaplan is the Retro-Reincarnation(IE, reborn before he died) of Billy Maximoff, the magically created son of Scarlet Witch and The Vision and considers Wanda to be his mother just as much as his considers his biological family to be his parents.
Magneto is either Wanda Maximoff's biological father or her stepfather depending on which retcon you believe and whose writing their relationship this week. This makes him Bill'y Grandfather.
After Billy finally accepts his full power and Apotheosis into the Demirug full time(which he can do at any moment, he's putting it off until he thinks he's responsible enough to handle being an omnipotent God of Magic) he will eventually go back in time, create several universes, and ultimately create Earth's Elder Gods, including Gaea, making him, in a way, Gaea's father.
Gaea, via her aspect Jord, is the mother of Thor according to every source other than Jason Aaron, making Billy his maternal grandfather, making Wanda Thor's great grandmother, making Magneto Thor's great great grandfather.
This isn't even the final form of the convoluted nest of the Pym Family Tree, which surpasses and encompasses the Grey-Summers tree in noneuclidian branching.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2021-05-04, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Honestly, "to avoid the theological implications for a movie franchise intended for global audiences" is reason enough to distance Asgardians from being genuine deities.
I don't know, obviously, but I do suspect the reason Wonder Woman (2017) killed off its Greek deities in a line of dialogue was similar concerns, or at least I think it was contributing factor.
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2021-05-04, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
Good to know that no backstory I could ever write can reach the sheer convoluted insanity of things that the phrases "Magneto is Thor's Great Great Grandfather" or "noneuclidian branching" or "depending on which retcon you believe and whose writing their relationship this week".
I swear If I ever get around to writing a superhero setting, I'll either parody the heck out of the storytelling or come up with something more sensible than this weird pileup of chaotic writing involving time travel and complicated relationships, because if I want to focus on that, I'd just read homestuck because it does it better.
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
Just pointing out that Wonder Woman 2017 Screenwritter is the person who created Billy Kaplan, even though it was other authors who made Billy into the Demiurge and then established this 2010s lore, with a 2000s character with some 1980s concept.
Like I said earlier 616 comics of Marvels is very Baroque, we literally have Paradise Lost style time travel, just like that John Milton's poem.Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele
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2021-05-04, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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I'm reminded of a quote by Solas from Dragon Age - to paraphrase, "the thing about gods is anyone who has to prove they are one, probably isn't." And he would know.
To be fair, writing any continual fiction for nigh-on 60 years by multiple authors is probably going to involve some spaghetti lore and retcons at some point down the line. If you're lucky enough to get that far with your own, that is a likely outcome.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
Bit of Trivia: Milton's Paradise Lost was intrumental in the birth of the Hulk.
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to explain it in detail, but to summarise imagine a three-year-old boy who is absolutely terrified of his physically and emotionally abusive father, who went on a rant calling the boy a monster for reading a book well above his age level, is cowering in his bed when he sees a massive humanoid serpent standing above him.
And this hulking monstrosity looks down to the child and he says to him.Hey, big guy. I hear you, kid. I love you. I'll always be here for you. He's not your dad. Not a good dad. A dad can't hurt you and be a good dad. Just let me out, okay? Let me out and I'll kill him.
The Big Guy, the more familiar Hulk, was the second alter to manifest and the second to become a Hulk.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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There is definitely some self indulgence in there. The MCU can probably get away with it, on the sheer basis of what they've pulled off, but if anyone else had done it, they'd have gotten immense hatred for it. Can you imagine the DCU attempting this? It'd be laughable.
Of that list, I am apathetic about Marvels and sorta meh on Eternals. I will probably see the latter anyways, because MCU, but the Inhumans series left something of a bad taste, so I'm not sure I'm all that enthused about the introduction of another flavor of superbeing, and I'm not familiar with them from comics.
Pretty much everything else looks fun, though.
I do wonder how they're going to come with Boseman's death. The guy was very well cast for the role. I did love M'Baku as portrayed in Black Panther, here's hoping he gets a larger part, with or without the mantle of the BP.
Eh, if you're gonna write her out long term, some sort of finale for her story would probably be preferable to just continually tossing out vague excuses. A heroic sacrifice or something, yknow?
Explaining why the street tier people can't turn to any of a long list of god tier characters can eventually be something of an issue overall. It's going to be something they need to deal with at least a little bit regardless of if it's her specifically, but if and when they want to get rid of her overall(I am not sure that this is the case), closure is always nice. I always prefer when a hero has a solid end to their tale.
It really is a shame that Black Widow didn't get her movie earlier. I mean, don't get wrong, I'll happily watch it when it does come out, but prior to her death in Endgame would have made somewhat more chronological sense. They could totally have done a P2 BW film, and I think it'd have landed fairly well.
As for all the insane Marvel comics lore...it's interesting, but I don't expect it to be especially critical to the MCU, which has a habit of picking and choosing, which is honestly the only practical way to make a functional adaptation. They'll likely do that again, and I'm pretty fine with it.
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2021-05-07, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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I’m a bit wary of it at this point. The Eternals have a lot of problems to overcome before they even hit the screen:
- They’re obscure, and will need a fair amount of background to be on screen as a result
- Being immortal, super-powered, and Earth-based, the movie needs to explain why they didn’t help out with Thanos
- There are a lot of them, so either most of them are going to be stuck in the background or they’re all going to be fighting for screentime
- They’re at least in the same tier Carol is in, with all the plot breaking difficulties for lower-tier heroes that implies...and without the ready excuse of ‘space is large and we’re busy in it’ she has
Every point but the last will need to be dealt with in this initial movie.
This is an excellent point.
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2021-05-07, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
…sorta meh on Eternals. I will probably see the latter anyways, because MCU, but the Inhumans series left something of a bad taste, so I'm not sure I'm all that enthused about the introduction of another flavor of superbeing, and I'm not familiar with them from comics.
Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
I did love M'Baku as portrayed in Black Panther, here's hoping he gets a larger part, with or without the mantle of the BP.
Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
Being immortal, super-powered, and Earth-based, the movie needs to explain why they didn’t help out with Thanos….
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2021-05-07, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
Whoever was in charge, Wakanda was at least more engaged during the blip than they had been before though. Okoye never reported problems to SHIELD before, and Black Widow Fury's "all problems go through me" was met with immediate assent by her.
For once we agree but I think these are pretty easily surmountable. And Eternals is both written and directed by Chloe Zhao, so it has some pretty impressive creative chops behind it.
- The Guardians were obscure too and they got through them pretty economically. Granted most of them don't have powers, just tech/training/moxie, but still.
- In the Neil Gaiman version - and based on the trailer I think this is where it's going -
Spoilerthey all lost their powers and memories and were living as normal people until an event of some kind - the arrival of a dormant Celestial in the comic's case - "woke them up" and restored their legacy. I expect a similar inciting incident here.
- Much like the Guardians (and the Avengers for that matter) I expect a small core roster to start with, that will get added to by future movies. That group shot in the forest and /or the one in front of the gate is probably all we're going to dealt with for this outing.
- Agreed, if the movie doesn't end with them all going to space, "Why didn't anyone call the Eternals" is going to be a legitimate recurring question. (Of course, nothing says they all have to end up being good guys/superheroes either. "We didn't call the Eternals because they would make things worse" is a legitimate potential outcome.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-05-07, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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That's pretty much what they'd have to do from an origin-story perspective. Just, on the face of it, it'd be a solid way to deliver the audience exposition as to who, what, and why they are without "as you know"-style discussions among characters who are supposed to have been around one another for over a million years. Exposition which is dearly needed since the Eternals are obscure and fairly complex.
There's also just not terribly many modern Eternal comics to draw inspiration from, so Neil Gaiman's run is probably the most popular by default.
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
The movie can stress that the Eternals are there to protect life on Earth, not to stop crime or save individual lives, take sides, or worry about internal conflicts. Not anymore than a biologist will step in to save a deer from a cougar. They have seen civilizations rise and fall, species becoming extinct and new ones evolving, so they will not step in for situations at this level. They're planetary babysitters that will only intervene as a last resort option.
And since they're "programmed" that way by the Celestials, the film can present them in a less selfish or hypocritical light than if it was another group of Earth-based superheroes. That way we can have them show up in big events across MCU teams, but they would stay out of Civil War, Captain America, Iron-man, Spider-man or Black Panther like threats."Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"
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2021-05-08, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
How are they doing Black Panther? I really hope they aren't going to do a CGI Chadwick Boseman.
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Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
They’ve specifically stated they are not doing that, and not recasting him, so you should be good there.
I could be okay with that, depending on how it’s managed, but I could see how some people might be less comfortable with it.
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
Considering that Boseman knew he had the cancer while they were filming previous movies... I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't film some scenes ahea of time just in case. Not enough for a whole movie but enough to explain what happened to T'Challa if they had to write him out and why there's a new Black Panther.
Edit: @Above, if that's true it's a recent thing: when robin Williams died he was able to get an injunction stopping the use of his physical or vocal likeness including unreleased recordings and imitations of himself for IIRC 15 years after his death.I also answer to Bookmark and Shadow Claw.
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2021-05-08, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer
Chadwick knew, but according to Marvel, they didn't. So while it's possible they banked some "connecting footage" of some kind, I wouldn't count too heavily on it.
While that seems likely, that's probably more expected to be exercised in the case of actors who are of advanced age or known to be battling a serious illness of some kind. As Chadwick's was more private and far less expected, simply firing up the holotron 3000 to digitally reproduce him has a high chance of backlash.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-05-09, 06:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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It's interesting to think what would have changed if Kevin Feige did know, like Black Panther having a heroic death at the hands of Thanos at the final battle in Endgame. In a similar vein, I think Leia sacrificing herself in the hyperspace ram instead of Admiral purple hair in The Last Jedi would have greatly improved the whole sequel trilogy.
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2021-05-09, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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While a cool visual, I think the "hyperspace ram" raises more problems for the setting than it solves. I personally like how other settings like Mass Effect and Star Trek preferred to sidestep the issue.
...oh crap I'm talking about Last Jedi aren't I...Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2021-05-09, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2020
- Location
- United States
- Gender