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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Infinity Stones will be the catalyst that nukes were in early X-Men comics. Mutants are still mutants, but the mutations are triggered, at least initially, by the Infinity Stones being used.
    How about the destruction of the Inifnite Stone cause the return of the Eternals, and THEIR going away explain the X-Men for Phase 9

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I’m not sure that would be the case. Remember that Wakanda is thousands of years old; they’ve probably had many other irregularities during their history, and yet this is the system they choose to retain.

    On the other hand, we don't know that there isn't some sort of parliament that deals with day-to-day governance, while the king and his council deal with broader issues.
    I can give real life examples of countries where there is both a continuity and change for countries thousands of years old. But I will not due to forum rules.

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  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    How about the destruction of the Inifnite Stone cause the return of the Eternals, and THEIR going away explain the X-Men for Phase 9
    Eh, we'll see. I'd personally like to see Apocalypse be the big bad guy for MCU going forward. Nothing says bad buy like being abnormally large with a weird chin. Plus, the shape changing stuff and wanting to elevate people via a an absurdly harsh survival of the fittest seems like it would be fun.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Eh, we'll see. I'd personally like to see Apocalypse be the big bad guy for MCU going forward. Nothing says bad buy like being abnormally large with a weird chin. Plus, the shape changing stuff and wanting to elevate people via a an absurdly harsh survival of the fittest seems like it would be fun.
    Have you read the Apocalypse comics since 2019?
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I’m not sure that would be the case. Remember that Wakanda is thousands of years old; they’ve probably had many other irregularities during their history, and yet this is the system they choose to retain.

    On the other hand, we don't know that there isn't some sort of parliament that deals with day-to-day governance, while the king and his council deal with broader issues.
    Perhaps? A system in isolation, which Wakanda appears to be, may sometimes fail dramatically when it comes into contact with the outside world. Not merely government systems, but ecological systems, and pretty much anything else becomes adapted to how things usually are, and this can lead to brittleness when dealing with something genuinely new.

    We don't know a ton about Wakanda's government, but I think a pretty good case could be made that it struggles to cope with external change even from what we do see. The added changes of the snap are no doubt outside their historical context, and together with a leadership crisis could hit them pretty hard. There's irregularities of the day to day sorts, and then there's the ones you encounter in the way a sentence encounters a full stop.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
    A system in isolation, which Wakanda appears to be, may sometimes fail dramatically when it comes into contact with the outside world.
    Sometimes, yes, but Wakanda has already been in contact for decades, if not far longer--and entirely on their own terms. They’ve had wardogs in LA since at least 1992, and by 2018 it sounds as if they have agents in major cities throughout the world, as well as operatives like Nakia who seem to have a great deal of latitude in their engagements outside Wakanda’s borders.

    T’Challa has CNN on his private jet, and we know they have satellites that are capable of detailed surveillance of the rest of the world. If there’s any isolated society that’s best equipped to manage contact with the rest of the world, it would be Wakanda, because they know hella more about us than we’ve ever known about them.

    As for leadership crises, I expect they've had their periods of instability like everyone else, and the fact that they've clearly weathered them with institutions and borders intact--to say nothing of their technology remaining secret--strongly suggests that they're not fragile, not strangers to challenges, and not likely to fold in the occasional stiff wind.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    It's not that Wakanda has been in hiding or in isolation, like other similar "hidden traditional/sci-fi civilization" tropes (like the Inhumans), they have always been in active contact with other nations in the world, they even have representation in the UN. The only thing is that secretly they've had an incredibly developed technology, and that they have been hiding. But everybody knows that Wakanda exists, and Wakanda knows about the rest of the world probably even better than post-colonial African states.
    Last edited by Clertar; 2021-05-15 at 06:26 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Yhea. It's not Wakanda that hasn't had contact with the world. It's the world that hasn't had contact with Wakanda.

    The real Wakanda.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I’m not sure that would be the case. Remember that Wakanda is thousands of years old; they’ve probably had many other irregularities during their history, and yet this is the system they choose to retain.

    On the other hand, we don't know that there isn't some sort of parliament that deals with day-to-day governance, while the king and his council deal with broader issues.
    If this existed, it would have come up in Black Panther.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    If this existed, it would have come up in Black Panther.
    Why? It wasn't about the constitutional legacy of Wakanda.

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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Why? It wasn't about the constitutional legacy of Wakanda.
    It was about succession of leadership in Wakanda. That's one of the primary purposes of any Constitution.

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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    If this existed, it would have come up in Black Panther.
    People do not know the real history and how there are dozens of crisises over thousands of years of any history for any culture. For much the same reason the vast majority, let’s say 99% of people can not name the last names of their 8 great-grandparents prior to their marriage.

    Put another way it is nerd stuff what happened prior to your birth and your parents births. See your own signature Trafalgar 🙂
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-05-15 at 07:07 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    99% of people can not name the last names of their 8 grandparents prior to their marriage.
    OTOH, they probably do know how many biological grandparents they have. 😛

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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by dps View Post
    OTOH, they probably do know how many biological grandparents they have. 😛
    A great was missing before the grandparents, my point I was trying to make is still there. How many people can name the last names of these 8 people before those people got married (if they got married, I am merely bringing this up you need to remember the maiden last names)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    It was about succession of leadership in Wakanda. That's one of the primary purposes of any Constitution.
    My man, if they were to retroactively claim that Wakanda has a democratically elected legislature that is in charge of making sure Wakanda is well administered, but is fully vassal to the monarchy and its historical tradition, I wouldn't bat an eye.

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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    I would prefer for Wakanda to have a properly African traditional version of a representative democracy, not just a copy of the European formula. We know how the king, presumably the head of state, is elected, but we still don't know how the equivalent of a cabinet is appointed, and what the equivalent of a legislative and executive chambers are and how they are formed.
    Last edited by Clertar; 2021-05-16 at 05:17 AM.
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  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Spoiler: Shang-Chi spoilers
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    So there's a toy leak and there's most definitely at least one dragon in Shang-Chi

    Since Dragons are confirmed to be present, people are now speculating that Fin-Fang Foom with make an appearance: An Alien dragon...

    ...Whose species created the Mandarin's ten rings.
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  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    I would prefer for Wakanda to have a properly African traditional version of a representative democracy, not just a copy of the European formula. We know how the king, presumably the head of state, is elected, but we still don't know how the equivalent of a cabinet is appointed, and what the equivalent of a legislative and executive chambers are and how they are formed.
    The point I am making is that the good governance of Wakanda was not a plot point in BP. It's supreme leadership position was the plot point of BP.

    So we did not pay attention to how Wakanda ensure the day to day governance works out. But just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean there's nothing.

    BP was about drama at the top. The question everyone asks is "well what happen when the one at the top is removed?", because they can't conceptually imagine there being anything else to the Wakanda state that the top, because no incarnation was even suggested.

    But there's a big difference between "there is no authority besides the King" and "we havent seen any authority besides the King"

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Spoiler: Shang-Chi spoilers
    Show
    So there's a toy leak and there's most definitely at least one dragon in Shang-Chi

    Since Dragons are confirmed to be present, people are now speculating that Fin-Fang Foom with make an appearance: An Alien dragon...

    ...Whose species created the Mandarin's ten rings.
    Just FYI, there were dragons in the trailer too. Same scene as the lion-things.

  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Just FYI, there were dragons in the trailer too. Same scene as the lion-things.
    I missed that completly.
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    Spoiler: Ode To Meteors, By zimmerwald
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Originally Posted by Trafalgar
    If this existed, it would have come up in Black Panther.
    There's no specific mention of it in the movie. But it seems unlikely that there isn’t some kind of council or assembly devoted to the quotidian details of life and commerce within Wakanda.

    And there would be no reason for it to have come up in Black Panther, simply because they wouldn’t have the power to interfere with matters of external policy. A council that deals with hoverbike lanes and sporting licenses wouldn’t be relevant to the arming of wardogs in other countries, but such a council would still be necessary for Wakanda’s internal society to function.

    Originally Posted by Cikomyr2
    My man, if they were to retroactively claim that Wakanda has a democratically elected legislature that is in charge of making sure Wakanda is well administered, but is fully vassal to the monarchy and its historical tradition, I wouldn't bat an eye.
    Likewise. This would make perfect sense, both in terms of world-building and what we’ve seen so far.

    Originally Posted by Cikomyr2
    So we did not pay attention to how Wakanda ensure the day to day governance works out. But just because it wasn't mentioned doesn't mean there's nothing.
    And absolutely this.

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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    People do not know the real history and how there are dozens of crisises over thousands of years of any history for any culture. For much the same reason the vast majority, let’s say 99% of people can not name the last names of their 8 great-grandparents prior to their marriage.

    Put another way it is nerd stuff what happened prior to your birth and your parents births. See your own signature Trafalgar 🙂
    This post does not make any sense. I was talking about an MCU movie and you are talking about people's ignorance of their own genealogy for some reason. You might as well try to prove your point by inventing facts about the coconut carrying ability of European and African swallows.

    Lets stick to the actual movie. In Black Panther, a stranger (a US citizen who served in the special forces) shows up in Wakanda. He becomes King by defeating the current one in ritual combat. He then radically changes decades of foreign policy by deciding to provide vibranium weapons to the outside world. The previous King shows up again, is supported by the Dora Milaje (sp?), and a civil war breaks out. At no point does anyone say "What is being said in Parliament?" or "Lets file suit and see what the courts rule before starting a civil war". If Wakanda has some sort of council, legislature, independent judiciary, etc it has about as much power over the monarchy as the Wakandan dog catching department.

    I get it, Black Panther is a dumb MCU movie but it is lazy writing and world building all the same. I am not saying this movie needed to be Rome but this kind of politics in an action movie is not unheard of. Captain America: Civil War has the Sokovia Accords. Even Star Wars Episode IV mentions the dissolution of the Galactic Senate. It would not have taken much to fix this.

    Also, I guess I am in the, let's say, 1% who can name all their great grandparents.

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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    He wasn't some stranger, he's a full on prince. Even if there was a council of advisors, there isn't anything they can DO.

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    Originally Posted by Trafalgar
    If Wakanda has some sort of council, legislature, independent judiciary, etc it has about as much power over the monarchy as the Wakandan dog catching department.
    Just from the needs of civil society, it makes sense there would be some form of council to deal with day-to-day affairs, since you can’t expect the king to craft legislation for Wakandan wireless wrist TV service or whatever they have. But you would need some council to decide on these matters, probably with overall approval from the king, but with the council able to deliberate and shape the details of how their society functions.

    And yes, that council wouldn’t have power over the monarchy, since their focus would be on the minutiae of civil society.

    And of course, Zodi’s point about Killmonger is on target. He’s not a random operative who just showed up, he’s a long-lost member of the royal family. T’Challa himself said that was the only reason he didn’t kill him outright.

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    He wasn't some stranger, he's a full on prince. Even if there was a council of advisors, there isn't anything they can DO.
    He was acknowledged and accepted as royal Prince by the King of Wakanda.

    At that point, his legitimacy was no longer in question. Because what's the King says goes.

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    He wasn't some stranger, he's a full on prince. Even if there was a council of advisors, there isn't anything they can DO.
    Second this. He had his dad’s ring and the tattoo inside his mouth to prove it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Second this. He had his dad’s ring and the tattoo inside his mouth to prove it.
    And the King's acknowledgement and recognition. Again. Full dictatorship means the dictator can legitimize those with the power to overthrow them.

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    Default Re: MCU Phase 4 Trailer

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    This post does not make any sense. I was talking about an MCU movie and you are talking about people's ignorance of their own genealogy for some reason. You might as well try to prove your point by inventing facts about the coconut carrying ability of European and African swallows.

    Lets stick to the actual movie. In Black Panther, a stranger (a US citizen who served in the special forces) shows up in Wakanda. He becomes King by defeating the current one in ritual combat. He then radically changes decades of foreign policy by deciding to provide vibranium weapons to the outside world. The previous King shows up again, is supported by the Dora Milaje (sp?), and a civil war breaks out. At no point does anyone say "What is being said in Parliament?" or "Lets file suit and see what the courts rule before starting a civil war". If Wakanda has some sort of council, legislature, independent judiciary, etc it has about as much power over the monarchy as the Wakandan dog catching department.

    I get it, Black Panther is a dumb MCU movie but it is lazy writing and world building all the same. I am not saying this movie needed to be Rome but this kind of politics in an action movie is not unheard of. Captain America: Civil War has the Sokovia Accords. Even Star Wars Episode IV mentions the dissolution of the Galactic Senate. It would not have taken much to fix this.

    Also, I guess I am in the, let's say, 1% who can name all their great grandparents.
    How many Americans can talk about the two dozen plus events, things like wars and other legitimacy crisis that has occurred in the last 230 years? And a 1000 years is 4 times larger.

    No one is going to talk about the entire history of a country in casual conversation or an info dump inside a movie. Thus saying the country has always been the same is a lie of perception. The world is more complicated than humans ability to 1describe with language, 2humans ability to memorize, and 3humans ability to describe to another without overwhelming the other person's cognition. The world is more complicated than those 3 things.

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  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    For much the same reason the vast majority, let’s say 99% of people can not name the last names of their 8 great-grandparents prior to their marriage.
    Yet another problem solvable by inbreeding! No wonder royalty has often been all about it!

    I don't think that Black Panther would necessarily cover trivia of this sort, but if they had recently had a similar upset to leadership the way there was in the film, that seems relevant enough to come up. As it is, the country does not seem to have any strong systems to stop Killmonger. Without T'Challa, he just...rules. Over a begrudging population, certainly, but there is pretty clearly no system that prevents him from claiming the throne if he wins the fight.

    It certainly seems likely that the kingship and the mantle of black panther have been traditions for...quite some time. T'Challa alludes to this history a bit when he talks about the afterlife. There seems to be a "this is the way things have been" element there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    There's no specific mention of it in the movie. But it seems unlikely that there isn’t some kind of council or assembly devoted to the quotidian details of life and commerce within Wakanda.
    Each of the tribes sends a representative to the council, we see that much. Presumably the council handles things that the King doesn't directly deal with, in a sort of Game of Thrones like fashion, just with less backstabbing. Tech appears to be largely on Suri's shoulders. We don't see anyone ordering her around, and that singular building is airport, laboratory and in the basement, mine. That would lead towards a fairly small group of people in power.

    Real life might have rather more people there, but in real life, usually an inventor doesn't revolutionize half a dozen different things at once. Suri seems akin to Stark. She probably has people, but she's the person directly in charge, and in a fairly hands on way.

    We don't really see how the council members are elected within their tribes. Roles do not appear to change rapidly. We don't see any role changes over the time Killmonger grows up. Obviously we're limited by what we see on screen, but everything we see supports the interpretation that things have been this way for a good while.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga View Post
    Second this. He had his dad’s ring and the tattoo inside his mouth to prove it.
    Who tattoos their kid's mouth?

    That seems like child abuse.

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