Jumping and Athletics

[Segev]

We all know the jumping rules pretty well. Long jump is your Strength score in feet, high jump is 3+Strength mod in feet, as long as you get 10 feet of running start. Some things reduce this to 5 ft. running start.

The PHB also says, however, that the DM can call for a Strength (Athletics) check to try to jump further. But it gives zero guidance beyond this. We once again have the fuzzy "easy/medium/hard" difficulty scale to fall back on, but just how much further than your strength score is it "easy" to jump? How much further can you get with a "very hard" success?

Is a DM being super-generous if he lets a DC 15 check add an extra square to the jump? Is he being super harsh if he only lets a DC 10 round up to the nearest next 5 ft mark?

I've already hinted at some, but here are a few ideas for it I've had, even though I have no idea which are better for a "reasonable" benefit of an Athletics check.

• The distance you can jump is actually the RESULT of a Strength (Athletics) check, with the listed values in the PHB as minima.
  
  • So if you've got a 12 strength and are trained in Athletics at level 1, your expected value for a roll is 13, and you can roll as high as 23, while your minimum jumping distance no matter how badly the d20 betrays you is 12.
• Your Strength (Athletics) check result is the number of additional feet you can jump!
  
  • This is actually very impressive, and means your minimum would really be your strength score plus your bonus on Strength (Athletics) checks plus one.
  • It also means you can actually jump 2-3 times as far as the listed amount, depending on your luck.
• Your jump gains an extra foot for every point by which your roll beats 10.
  
  • This sets your minimum at the value given in the rules, and then has a chance of extending that.
• DC 10 will let you "round up" your jumping distance to the next square. DC 20 will let you add another 5 ft. (akin to giving you a half-foot for every point above 10 you got).
  
  • This is pretty non-generous, I think, and basically says you have a 5-10 foot leeway you MIGHT be able to make with a successful roll.
• Your Strength (Athletics) check has a DC of 10, and lets you round up to the nearest five foot increment if you succeed.
  
  • This is extremely stingy, though gives an easy way to finagle between 0 and 5 extra feet.

Something similar could be done for high jumping, based on one of these, or another mechanic.

So what do you guys think? How far SHOULD you be able to extend a jump with a Strength(Athletics) check? How hard should it be to extend?

[sayaijin]

As a person who most often plays Dex rogues who dump Str, I'll add to the confusion.

What if the character has a negative Str modifier, but has expertise in athletics?

[Mastikator]

As a person who most often plays Dex rogues who dump Str, I'll add to the confusion.

What if the character has a negative Str modifier, but has expertise in athletics?

Then asking to roll for it becomes very much an automatic choice. (which seems wrong to me IMO). Asking to make a skill check every time you do something as basic as jumping only serves to bog down the game.

-

I like the first option, with the caveat that you don't get to fall back on your minimum jumping distance if your D20 betrays you. The price of asking to make an athletics jump should be that you risk jumping worse.
I'd also add that if you have any effect that adds to your jumping distance, it adds it for the role. (jump spell triples your total result for example)

I'd only be OK with letting the player fall back on their minimum distance if they combine their jump with a dash action (be it bonus or regular). This slightly favors classes that can use dash as a bonus action, I'm OK with that.

[Unoriginal]

So what do you guys think? How far SHOULD you be able to extend a jump with a Strength(Athletics) check? How hard should it be to extend?

Part of the Beast Barbarian's 6th level feature is:

When you jump, you can make a Strength (Athletics) check and extend your jump by a number of feet equal to the check's total. You can make this special check only once per turn.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Part of the Beast Barbarian's 6th level feature is:

Which implies that the default should be generally less than that (otherwise everyone gets for free all the time what they only get once per turn and only after level 6).

My personal heuristics here are that you can always jump the listed distance--I'm not going to worry about confounding things like terrain, etc. Beyond that, I'd say something based on the terrain--a success means you can add up to your STR (Athletics) modifier to the distance covered; failure means something situation-dependent happens (fall prone, end up clinging to the edge of the cliff, bounce off the dude you're trying to jump and end up in the adjacent space, etc):

DC 10: Normal footing, no particular obstacles.
DC 15: bad footing or obstacles (such as having to clear a height or having a low ceiling)
DC 20: bad footing and obstacles.

So a STR-maxed level 20 rogue with expertise in athletics and Reliable Talent (unlikely, but roll with it) can (almost always) add +17 feet (minimum check is 27), for a total of 37 feet. He'd have to dash to get that far, but sure, why not. A level 20 barbarian with Athletics proficiency can generally add 13 feet for a total of 37 feet as well. Doesn't even have to dash, since he's got the speed boost. Not as reliably (fails a DC 15 1/10 times unless raging) but frankly, if you've got a STR-20 level 20 rogue with expertise in Athletics, they deserve what you can give them. They've built to be good at that and spent serious resources. A more normal rogue (STR 8 or 10) would only have +11/+12 and a max distance of 19 feet/22 feet, although they could basically always do it.

[Theodoxus]

Part of the Beast Barbarian's 6th level feature is:

Love it when a new class feature comes in and makes what I had been doing and breaks my ruling.

Not sure what to do now... Guess go with a base DC? DC 10 = adds up to 1/2 Str; DC 15 = adds Str; DC 20 = adds 1.5 Str; DC 25 = adds 2xStr... I mean, low strength guys aren't going to do much better than DC 20; a Strength 8, 1st level PB +2; that's a 5% chance to add 12'... so 5% chance to jump 20'? Seems about right. And technically, even at 17th+ level, the best unsupported roll will still be a 24; they'll never jump 24'.

[Sorinth]

It pretty much never comes up for when I DM because I have a houserule where your strength score for jumping is reduced by 1 for every 15lbs of gear you have.

[Jerrykhor]

It pretty much never comes up for when I DM because I have a houserule where your strength score for jumping is reduced by 1 for every 15lbs of gear you have.

That's a ridiculous houserule, adds too much math.

[Hytheter]

Personally, I think extending the jump by the result of an Athletics is absurd and unpredictable. Especially now that the Beast Barb literally has that as a class feature.

Using the result of an Athletics check (with the normal distance as a minimum) is probably fine, maybe even conservative... for a long jump. For a high jump? Again, a little ridiculous, you'll have people jumping over buildings from level 1.

In general, I don't think it's something you can apply equally to both long and high jumps.

[Segev]

Yeah, high jumps probably should be 1/4 the result, probably.

[Telok]

The one I saw played was DC = distance in feet rounded up to the next 5, fail and fall half way, you went max distance to your roll rounded down to the nearest 5, and if you ran out of movement you fell at the end.

Nobody with a high modifier wanted to jump extra distance because they were looking at 25+ DCs. The str 10 rogue could jump 15 and 20 feet all day though.

[Asisreo1]

I do it the same way I do any other skill checks.

"I want to jump this 20ft ravine."

"What's your strength score?"

"12..."

(Internally): That sounds like it would be kinda difficult, I'll set the DC to 17.

"Roll a DC 17 strength check."

"Can I use acrobatics?"

"No but you can use Athletics."

"I don't have athletics proficiency."

"Then just Strength is fine."

"...16..."

"You jump but don't quite make it, you grab onto the ledge and are barely hanging on!"

Barbarian: "I want to save him! I'll jump over the ravine and help him from the other side!"

Me: "What's your strength score?"

B: "20."

Me: "You make it easily, picking up the other player and saving them from demise."

[sayaijin]

I do it the same way I do any other skill checks.

"I want to jump this 20ft ravine."

"What's your strength score?"

"12..."

(Internally): That sounds like it would be kinda difficult, I'll set the DC to 17.

"Roll a DC 17 strength check."

"Can I use acrobatics?"

"No but you can use Athletics."

"I don't have athletics proficiency."

"Then just Strength is fine."

"...16..."

"You jump but don't quite make it, you grab onto the ledge and are barely hanging on!"

Barbarian: "I want to save him! I'll jump over the ravine and help him from the other side!"

Me: "What's your strength score?"

B: "20."

Me: "You make it easily, picking up the other player and saving them from demise."

This is probably the correct answer, but I do wonder how reliable talent factors in. You have the 20 Str, beef-tastic barbarian using his muscles to jump the 20ft ravine, and the scrawny rogue...uses his training? The rogue, with all of his training, is actually at a point where he's equally likely to succeed, but he can't actually exert enough force with his tiny little chicken legs.

Also, should the character's size factor in?

[Zhorn]

one method I've been considering is to treat the rolls of an Athletics check as a score to take a modifier from for adding to your jump distance.
Example: an Athletics check total of 14 is +2 feet. A check total of 8 is -1 feet.

This should be low enough to not step on the toes of class features and such that boost jumps, though I'm still not entirely happy with it.

[Asisreo1]

This is probably the correct answer, but I do wonder how reliable talent factors in. You have the 20 Str, beef-tastic barbarian using his muscles to jump the 20ft ravine, and the scrawny rogue...uses his training? The rogue, with all of his training, is actually at a point where he's equally likely to succeed, but he can't actually exert enough force with his tiny little chicken legs.

Well, in this particular example, the rogue needs at least some form of strength beyond their training to guarantee a jump. Even at max level with Athletics proficiency, if the Rogue doesn't have at least a +1 in strength, the roll is not guaranteed and actually has roughly 40% failure chance.

[Keravath]

Personally, I'd allow a roll for an extra 5' in some circumstances. I agree that there aren't any rules on what exactly to do which makes it all a DM call.

However, I wouldn't be going for something that lets folks regularly jump over 20' especially carrying equipment.

I realize this is a magical D&D world where the characters are representative of the "elite" of the adventuring world. However, unless the baseline is so much different from our reality (which it could easily be depending on the DMs world), each of these 20 foot+ jumps comes close to the world record (8.95m or about 29') reached by elite athletes, training intensely to do this one thing, over a period of years and carrying NO equipment.

Although the subtraction for every 15 pounds of gear carried suggested above adds complexity - it is certainly more realistic than a 20 strength fighter in plate armor with weapons shield and pack weighing 160 pounds leaping 20 feet - which is what the rules currently allow.

So I would say that the jumping rules are already pretty generous and any increases allowed by an athletics check should be pretty modest. (d20/2 at most in my opinion) ... however, everything about this would be a DM call.

[Tanarii]

+roll/5 ft, but it takes an action or bonus action if it's in combat.

5e characters can already jump wuxia distances as is.

[Darth Credence]

I looked up Olympic long jumpers, and the difference between their average jumps and the longest jumps of the batch that end up counting. After going through several, it looks like the extra they get when they hit it just right, e.g. make their athletics check, is to add around 5% to the total length of the jump. Seems reasonable for barely passing, but if they roll really well I could see an extra 10%.
If it ever comes up in my campaign, I'd probably go with DC 15 to get a bonus 5%, and DC20 to get the full bonus 10%. This may slightly change the ability to leap from roof to roof, although it isn't going to give anyone any kind of advantage in combat. I'm fine with that.

[sayaijin]

Well, in this particular example, the rogue needs at least some form of strength beyond their training to guarantee a jump. Even at max level with Athletics proficiency, if the Rogue doesn't have at least a +1 in strength, the roll is not guaranteed and actually has roughly 40% failure chance.

Well I'll be. You're right. Reliable talent doesn't actually boost the numbers enough to guarantee it. If I ever run a high level rogue in a no-magic campaign, I'll have to remember that.

[Zhorn]

+roll/5 ft, but it takes an action or bonus action if it's in combat.

5e characters can already jump wuxia distances as is.

Part of the reason I was looking at using the result of an Athletics check as a score to take a modifier from.
If every outcome is giving a +distance then there's no reason to not want a roll. With a +modifier ft from a check's total it becomes a risk/reward decision.
Being said I'm more fond of the range of values from the +roll/5 ft.

[Tanarii]

Part of the reason I was looking at using the result of an Athletics check as a score to take a modifier from.
If every outcome is giving a +distance then there's no reason to not want a roll. With a +modifier ft from a check's total it becomes a risk/reward decision.
Being said I'm more fond of the range of values from the +roll/5 ft.

Either way, the Str 8 Thief with Expertise Athletics and Reliable is going to enjoy the result. (Which I'm fine with.)

[Segev]

As written, the rules suggest that the roll is only a plus. That said, you are only rolling if you're trying to jump further than you know you definitely can. So if you're doing so with reason other than fun or some sort of jumping distance competition, the consequences of trying and failing likely are their own risk.


Edit to add: I think, from this thread, my favorite idea is to replace your Strength score with the result of the Strength + Athletics check in the calculation, if the result is higher.

[Damon_Tor]

I treat an athletics roll as an "instead of". So they can either use their strength score OR roll athletics. The former is better for a beefy strength guy, the latter is better for someone actually invested in the skill. So at first level a 16 str fighter can easily jump the 15 foot chasm, but the 10 str rogue with athletics expertise has a 50/50 shot. But at 11th level when expertise is +8 and reliable talent puts a hard floor on rolls, the 10 str rogue can jump over 18 foot gaps 100% of the time, while the now-20 str fighter is jumping 20s.

[Zhorn]

If that works for you and your group, all the more power to you on that front.
Personally, having such a wide range of results from an athletics check's total for a jump's distance a bit too much.

[Asisreo1]

If that works for you and your group, all the more power to you on that front.
Personally, having such a wide range of results from an athletics check's total for a jump's distance a bit too much.

The brilliance of the hands-free design of ability checks. While he likes it his way, you like it your way, but neither is necessarily playing "wrong." Sure, you have to discover for yourself and guidance would have been helpful, but the overall choice to leave the design to the DM or Adventure Designers gave the game breathing room for creativity, natural play, and basic friendly fun.

[Segev]

The brilliance of the hands-free design of ability checks. While he likes it his way, you like it your way, but neither is necessarily playing "wrong." Sure, you have to discover for yourself and guidance would have been helpful, but the overall choice to leave the design to the DM or Adventure Designers gave the game breathing room for creativity, natural play, and basic friendly fun.

Eh. This is a case where, if this is "the brilliance of hands-free design of ability checks," we could apply the same logic to jumping and they should have just made jumping a Strength (athletics) check with no other rules.

[Asisreo1]

Eh. This is a case where, if this is "the brilliance of hands-free design of ability checks," we could apply the same logic to jumping and they should have just made jumping a Strength (athletics) check with no other rules.

They kinda did but they added a baseline just for those stubborn DM's who might think a 5ft jump is too far for a lvl 20 barbarian. At least now they can be consistent with the minimum. But any other distance is up to the DM.

[Segev]

They kinda did but they added a baseline just for those stubborn DM's who might think a 5ft jump is too far for a lvl 20 barbarian. At least now they can be consistent with the minimum. But any other distance is up to the DM.

That's my point. If they needed a "minimum," that's an admission that zero guideline on how to translate die rolls to ... anything ... is bad design.

So far, my favorite idea remains that the strength plus athletics roll replaces your Strength score for calculating jump height/distance if it is higher than your actual Strength score.

[Tanarii]

That's my point. If they needed a "minimum," that's an admission that zero guideline on how to translate die rolls to ... anything ... is bad design.

Or good design, that allows each table to decide just how wuxia they want the campaign to be.

I'd be perfectly fine with a DM that said a successful DC 15 check let's you round up to the nearest 5ft to catch the lip and not die, but it doesn't extend for things like clearing difficult terrain or jumping creatures.

[Segev]

Or good design, that allows each table to decide just how wuxia they want the campaign to be.

I'd be perfectly fine with a DM that said a successful DC 15 check let's you round up to the nearest 5ft to catch the lip and not die, but it doesn't extend for things like clearing difficult terrain or jumping creatures.

Then a sentence or two of discussion about this is significantly more helpful than absolutely nothing.

Monsters have actual hp values, AC values, and to-hit values; we aren't told, "If a monster is hard to hit, you should make the ability check to hit them DC 20" with no other input.