Would you lose your soulmeld if you lose the Shape Soulmeld feat?

[SnugUndies]

I've been looking into playing a Master of Many Forms, since the sheer versatility provided by the wealth of options available to such a character seems intoxicating. One aspect I was considering is a mostly-unique feature feature that the Master of Many Forms has access to upon hitting level 7 of the prestige class. Past this point, the Master acquires all Extraordinary abilities from any creature it wild shapes into, and while some debate abounds, it's generally agreed that a non-human who wild shapes into a human will pick up the human's bonus feat as an extraordinary quality. Maybe that's a debate for another time, so for the sake of this thread, let's just assume that this trick does indeed work.

This leads me to my question: what happens if you pick Magic of Incarnum's Shape Soulmeld as your bonus feat? Say I wild shape into a human before bedtime, then wake up the next morning and shape some sort of soulmeld that I think would be handy. The next time I wild shape, I'm going to lose Shape Soulmeld, no question about that. But would I actually then lose the soulmeld I just shaped in addition to that? Magic of Incarnum goes to great pains to specify that soulmelds remain until purposefully unshaped, noting that they "can remain shaped for a day, a month, a year, or even a character’s entire life." Would the soulmeld persist seeing as the feat isn't required to maintain it, but merely shape it in the first place?

[Zaile]

I'd say, based on that wording, yes, but based on the fact the bonus feat is not an EX ability, no. If you shaped into some creature that could naturally shape soulmelds, then you could do it that way, but not the way you mentioned. It seems pretty cheesy as you could just max out soul melds. Though technically you could limited wish them into being as well.

Just be ready for the ban-hammer from your DM

[ciopo]

I would say yes, soulmeld are functionally items, it is no different from gaining then losing a magic item creation feat from that point of view.

I find it debatable that MoMF gives you the human bonus feat, but that's outside scope. Go chamaleon instead :p, or retraining.

[Zaile]

Qualifying for Chameleon would be pretty easy if you Wildshape Ranger entry, then at 2nd level you can use this trick ad-nauseum without the debatable tactic.

Edit: beat me to the chameleon punch

[SnugUndies]

The two of you must feel very strongly about this to have mentioned the human bonus feat not being acquirable despite my saying to just assume it is for the sake of the thread!

The Chameleon prestige class is specifically why I described the Master of Many Forms' ability to have a floating feat as "mostly-unique." I suppose I could have asked the same question under the false pretense of playing a Chameleon purely for the sake of avoiding barking up the wrong tree, but here we are.

[Crake]

The two of you must feel very strongly about this to have mentioned the human bonus feat not being acquirable despite my saying to just assume it is for the sake of the thread!

I mean, if it matters, I'll third that opinion. I've never seen it be "generally agreed upon" that wildshaping into a human grants you their bonus feat.

[ciopo]

The two of you must feel very strongly about this to have mentioned the human bonus feat not being acquirable despite my saying to just assume it is for the sake of the thread!

The Chameleon prestige class is specifically why I described the Master of Many Forms' ability to have a floating feat as "mostly-unique." I suppose I could have asked the same question under the false pretense of playing a Chameleon purely for the sake of avoiding barking up the wrong tree, but here we are.

I'm sometimes pedantic, comes with the brain I have :) I don't feel strongly about it, and I have answered you, haven't I?

That was just a side note :)

[Khedrac]

I am confident that any and all DMs will say that if you lose your ability to shape soulmelds, then any soulmelds you have shaped will be lost.

[ciopo]

I am confident that any and all DMs will say that if you lose your ability to shape soulmelds, then any soulmelds you have shaped will be lost.

I disagree with you on that.

Sure it's a reasonable inference, but magic items are not misteriously destroyed when their creator lose the required feat to make them.

*Unless there is something saying something about losing soulmelds in MoI, it's not a book I'm much familiar with

[Godofallu]

I agree that in theory you could (assuming your DM rules this way) morph into a human and grab a free feat. Then use it to shape a soulmeld . Then once the soulmeld is on you have it. Period. Even after changing out of human.

This opens other ideas like shaping a soulmeld with a feat and then shuffling away or retraining shape soulmeld to keep the meld and a bonus feat. Clearly a cheesy and not RAI use but it does mechanically work by RAW I think. Assuming changing to human does give a bonus feat which is a slight reach.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't see any real reason why one wouldn't gain the human bonus feat by turning into one. After all, it's not a Natural ability (the result of a physical feature), since you can take magical or purely mental feats (although even if it was, MoMFs get those, too), nor is it Supernatural, Spell-Like, or Psi-Like, as one doesn't lose the feat in an antimagic field or a dead magic zone. That leaves an Extraordinary special attack or quality, which MoMFs get. *shrug*

Of course, it's also a racial bonus feat, which MoMFs also get.

[Darg]

Fun facts. Humanoid wild shape does not confer the ability to gain the forms racial traits until MoMF level 7. When it does, that includes level adjustment while in the form. Polymorph overrides extraordinary qualities given as exception in alter self. So polymorphing into an avariel would leave you without the fly speed as both racial traits and the fly ability are extraordinary qualities.

Also, the human bonus grants you a bonus feat at first level. In order to get the bonus feat you would have to somehow wildshape into a human while retaining the level 7 ability of MoMF at level 1. The only way this is possible is to have an epic level MoMF Hierophant with the power of nature special ability. Even then, it would only work if the receiver was level 1.

I don't see any real reason why one wouldn't gain the human bonus feat by turning into one. After all, it's not a Natural ability (the result of a physical feature), since you can take magical or purely mental feats (although even if it was, MoMFs get those, too), nor is it Supernatural, Spell-Like, or Psi-Like, as one doesn't lose the feat in an antimagic field or a dead magic zone. That leaves an Extraordinary special attack or quality, which MoMFs get. *shrug*

Of course, it's also a racial bonus feat, which MoMFs also get.

Wild shape does not confer the type or subtype except for aquatic and alternate form specifically doesn't confer special qualities which racial traits would be except for specific traits that would be an attack.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Fun facts. Humanoid wild shape does not confer the ability to gain the forms racial traits until MoMF level 7. When it does, that includes level adjustment while in the form. Polymorph overrides extraordinary qualities given as exception in alter self. So polymorphing into an avariel would leave you without the fly speed as both racial traits and the fly ability are extraordinary qualities.

Actually, alter self grants movement modes even if they are [Ex]:

"You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement)"

And thus, polymorph would, too. This overrides not getting [Ex] qualities, because mundane (non-magical) movement modes are things you get regardless.

Also, the human bonus grants you a bonus feat at first level. In order to get the bonus feat you would have to somehow wildshape into a human while retaining the level 7 ability of MoMF at level 1. The only way this is possible is to have an epic level MoMF Hierophant with the power of nature special ability. Even then, it would only work if the receiver was level 1.

You can still have your 1st level feats at 2+, else they would go away as soon as you gained a level.

Wild shape does not confer the type or subtype except for aquatic and alternate form specifically doesn't confer special qualities which racial traits would be except for specific traits that would be an attack.

I do agree with this, yes. Wild shape is based on alternate form, which is no longer based on alter self, as I believe it was in 3.0. A master of many forms wouldn't get the human bonus feat until it got Extraordinary Wild Shape unless s/he (or it) cast alter self or polymorph, or used some other ability that granted it.

[Asmotherion]

When you loose the prerequisites for an ability, you also loose that ability generally. I'd view the feat as a prereq for having the soulmeld.

[Lans]

I believe you keep the meld until you rebind the melds at some point.

[noob]

I don't see any real reason why one wouldn't gain the human bonus feat by turning into one. After all, it's not a Natural ability (the result of a physical feature), since you can take magical or purely mental feats (although even if it was, MoMFs get those, too), nor is it Supernatural, Spell-Like, or Psi-Like, as one doesn't lose the feat in an antimagic field or a dead magic zone. That leaves an Extraordinary special attack or quality, which MoMFs get. *shrug*

Of course, it's also a racial bonus feat, which MoMFs also get.

It might be a tag less feature.
Class features without a tag are probably not natural nor supernatural nor spell like nor psi like nor extraordinary.
ex: spellcasting on a wizard is usually considered none of those (the spells cast however are spell likes)
It is just like in pathfinder where an animal that learns how to speak without being subjected to a template or a spell probably stops having a type altogether (since they lose the animal type but does not gains another type).

[Khedrac]

I disagree with you on that.

Sure it's a reasonable inference, but magic items are not misteriously destroyed when their creator lose the required feat to make them.

*Unless there is something saying something about losing soulmelds in MoI, it's not a book I'm much familiar with

The point here is that you can no longer channel the incarnum to sustain the soulmeld. It's akin to having it dispelled or walking into an anti-magic field.

Whilst they may not expire under normal circumstances, soulmelds are not permanent items. A magic item is only supressed by going into an anti-magic field, a soulmeld is ended.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It might be a tag less feature.
Class features without a tag are probably not natural nor supernatural nor spell like nor psi like nor extraordinary.
ex: spellcasting on a wizard is usually considered none of those (the spells cast however are spell likes)
It is just like in pathfinder where an animal that learns how to speak without being subjected to a template or a spell probably stops having a type altogether (since they lose the animal type but does not gains another type).

The default rule is that abilities that are not any of the others are Natural abilities:

"Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAb...turalAbilities

[ciopo]

The point here is that you can no longer channel the incarnum to sustain the soulmeld. It's akin to having it dispelled or walking into an anti-magic field.

Whilst they may not expire under normal circumstances, soulmelds are not permanent items. A magic item is only supressed by going into an anti-magic field, a soulmeld is ended.

But that is not what MoI says

"(snip) Once shaped, a soulmeld takes on a solid physical form
in the shape specified for that particular meld. (snip)"

I don't see mention of needing to constantly channel essence. Outside of how essentia plays, but getting a soulshape with the feat is outside the purview of essentia gameplay anyway.

"(snip) Dead magic areas are also dead soulmeld areas. A character
who enters a dead magic area with soulmelds active loses the
benefit of those soulmelds while in the area, though they
return as soon as he leaves (snip)"

They specifically say that they are only suppressed too, here?

As far as I'm reading, only taking negative levels would force an unshaping

"(snip) INCARNUM AND NEGATIVE LEVELS
When a meldshaping character gains a negative level, he suffers the following effects, in addition to the normal effects felt
by any character:
• His meldshaper level is reduced by 1.
• He loses the ability to shape one soulmeld. If he currently
has the maximum number of soulmelds shaped, one of his soulmelds (determined randomly) unshapes. (snip)"

that part about maximum number of soulmeld shaped confuses me, because the entry of maximum soulmelds exists only for the MoI classes, afaik, so I'd name it disfunctional, in that the shape soulmeld feat does not interact well with it, I can see this going 2 ways :

*) the soulmeld obtained from a feat gets unshaped, and is lost forever.

*) the soulmeld obtained from a feat doesn't get unshaped, because it is not related to class features.

[Raishoiken]

It might be a tag less feature.
Class features without a tag are probably not natural nor supernatural nor spell like nor psi like nor extraordinary.
ex: spellcasting on a wizard is usually considered none of those (the spells cast however are spell likes)
It is just like in pathfinder where an animal that learns how to speak without being subjected to a template or a spell probably stops having a type altogether (since they lose the animal type but does not gains another type).

If an ability has no tag, that is what definitionally makes it a natural ability

[Troacctid]

This is a known bug with Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra. MoI doesn't do a good job of accounting for a situation where you retrain your feat, and it results in unexpected behavior. You should be prepared for the DM to patch it via DMG p6.

Of course it usually comes up through other methods, since gaining the human bonus feat by wild shaping has always been extremely controversial and on shaky rules ground. By RAW, the bonus feat must be chosen during character creation, and unlike other races, human traits are not listed as (Ex), so they default to natural abilities instead.

[SnugUndies]

I guess I'll quickly weigh in regarding the nature of the acceptance of acquiring the human bonus feat as an extraordinary ability.

I don't think I've ever seen a conversation with someone asking for advice on playing a Master of Many Forms that wasn't somewhat abbreviated by pointing them towards the MoMF Bible. Clearly this is a document of some regard, and lo and behold within its pages it lists humans as a worthwhile option past level 7 in order to pick up that interchangeable bonus feat. The impression I got is that everyone pointing towards this document is implicitly supporting any points it makes. Now, to be fair, the reasoning it gives for the validity of such a tactic is based on a Sage ruling, which as we all know is... highly questionable.

Because humans do not have a monster entry in Monster Manual, it is difficult to know if the bonus feat and skill points are “special qualities,” “special abilities,” "natural abilities" or whatever... Still, once you get extraordinary abilities, you're picking up bonus feats across the board, so why not this one?