Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

[x3n0n]

This comes up periodically: you're about to start an activity that will require a skill check. A party member uses Guidance to give you +1d4 on your next skill check in the next minute.

If the activity takes less than a minute, clearly Guidance just works. (Shoving a boulder, picking many locks, investigating for traps on such a lock.)

What if it takes 2 minutes?
10 minutes?
Half an hour?
An hour?

Consider a difficult climb that should take 5-10 minutes. At many tables and in much published material, that requires a single Athletics check. Does Guidance help at all? If so, how much?

How about a Survival check to avoid getting lost over the next 2 hours?

You're about to enter the room for prolonged negotiations, attempting to Persuade them to join your side.

Thoughts?

Consider also Bardic Inspiration, which consumes a resource and lasts 10 minutes, or various leveled spells (like Enhance Ability) that last 10 minutes or an hour.

[Toadkiller]

I would allow it, at least in any case that comes to mind. The guidance let’s one start well, which makes the whole thing go more smoothly would be a way to explain it.

[Amnestic]

I would allow it, at least in any case that comes to mind. The guidance let’s one start well, which makes the whole thing go more smoothly would be a way to explain it.

I agree with this, a strong start with magical aid to carry them through the rest of the duration.

[LumenPlacidum]

Everything here is about when I'm running a game, and should not be taken as the way the game is written. It's just what I do.

My impression about the Guidance cantrip is that it represents a holy man of some stripe touching someone and offering a short benediction for success. "May God guide your hammer and bless the fruit of your labor," for example. Or, they're doing it for something that they themselves are about to attempt. "Pelor, grant me the wisdom to see through twisted words." Lots of people say these things, but when someone empowered with divine magic does so, the results are demonstrably better.

Here's how I handle this for different scenarios:

Short term test of ability.
No problem. Someone is about to jump over the pit and they're not sure if they can grab the other side. The priest speaks a brief benediction and it helps their effort.

Long term test of ability, largely predictable circumstances, largely stationary
No problem. The priest stands behind the craftsman who is working, touching the craftsman at the start, but being able to simply keep speaking their words, lowly intoning some sort of chant to benefit their labor.

Long term test of ability, changing circumstances or involving significant movement
I have a problem with this. Having a priest saying little, slightly different prayers all the time for what the Ranger is encountering while tracking is ridiculous and, I would imagine, distractingly annoying. "Great Ra, please grant Bobo keenness of vision in our quest for justice. Reveal to us the bent leaf as sign of our foes' passage. Please grant us your favor as we look for sign after the stream. Grant Bobo your majesty and help us determine the nature of this scat." It's not that, technically, the priest couldn't do this, but it very quickly feels like turning something amazing into something petty and small. And, I would imagine that most deities themselves would grow annoyed at the constant interruptions.

Subtle test of ability
I have a problem with people using Guidance on skill checks that the character doesn't know is happening. The wizard looks over at the monster and decides to roll Arcana to see if he remembers something about them. The priest player says "Plus 1d4 for Guidance!" No. You don't get to anticipate the necessity that the wizard is going to need to remember or not remember something. At that point, people have game-ified the cantrip too much and it doesn't really make sense anymore. If the priest had cast a generic Guidance on the wizard ahead of time, then sure. But, the idea that the wizard will wait to access his memory while the priest blesses him is dumb.

Social skill test
I allow players to cast Guidance to help in a conversation, but remember that different NPC attitudes could be triggered by having the priest simply say "May our words be sweet and our minds open," before a conversation. Obvious problems include things like "Grant us the benefit of your skill, master of lies" before beginning a negotiation... My above example about seeing through twisted words would be insulting to most people, and probably would only be appropriate if a priest were asked to speak to the honesty of some criminal at trial or something. Guidance to improve the results of a performance would probably be self-defeating.

---

So, yeah. I would go with the idea that a Guidance is cast with some specific purpose in mind, for a particular task that someone is about to do. Climbing a short way is a fine with me. Not getting lost? I think I'd ask the caster what benediction they offered. Persuasion I think is handled above--depends on what the benediction is and what character the negotiation has.

[Tanarii]

Nope. You only get a bonus if it the task can be completed within the duration.

[stoutstien]

Nope. You only get a bonus if it the task can be completed within the duration.

Completed or start to finish? The problem comes up when you are talking about things that don't have a set time for completion or the check is retroactive in nature so it's timing is instant but has indeterminate timing.

That's the issue with one check systems when roll to avoid failure and roll to succeed are used incorrectly.

in the climbing example above the issue isn't the long climb at all. It's the fact that there shouldn't be a check to begin with and the check should be due to a sudden change in factors. You roll to avoid falling/maintain grip after a small avalanche happens.

Scroll and downtime actively are a cluster of bad rules because they system doesn't actually have any resolution mechanics for longer durations. They need to be broken down to add more rolls which adds RNG protection and gives the players some actually agency.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Nope. You only get a bonus if it the task can be completed within the duration.

I agree with this, though I maymake an exception if there is time and opportunity to cast the spell repeatedly for the duration of the task. I don't think it would happen often though, the constant touching and vocal components involved might be too great a distraction.

[quindraco]

Nope. You only get a bonus if it the task can be completed within the duration.

Guidance is functionally duration infinity unless whatever you're doing requires your action every round or prevents you from casting, because the only cost of Guidance being up is 1 action every minute. For example, on a 10 minute climb, you can cast Guidance, then begin climbing. Every 10th round, Guidance expires at the beginning of your turn, and then you can cast Guidance before doing anything else, like moving. Or if climbing is consuming your action, that turn you sit there, and next turn you resume. There's no sane reason not to let Guidance apply to a 10 minute climb in those circumstances, because the spell is up for the entire climb.

On the other hand, if you sang for 10 minutes, you would have a problem, because Guidance has a Verbal component - you'd have to stop singing every minute to re-cast it, and everyone listening would notice. Likewise if you needed both hands occupied continuously, because it has a Somatic component, and likewise if you needed your action continuously for the entire duration.

If your Guidance had some cost associated with it, so you didn't have 10-11 copies of it on hand, then you'd need a full ruling, and ruling that the entire task has to be within the duration of it would make no sense at all - Guidance doesn't do anything while it's up except wait to be used, and then it expires when you use it. It's not like Emboldening Bond from Peace Clerics, where you get a benefit while it's up. The only sane way I see to rule on Guidance is to make the check happen at a predetermined (by the DM!) time, and have it consume Guidance when it happens. There are four ways I see to do this:

1. Check happens at the beginning.
2. Check happens at the end.
3. Check happens at a predetermined point during the task, which the DM tells the PC.
4. Check happens at a predetermined point during the task, which the DM doesn't tell the PC.

Item 4 is only appropriate when the PC is attempting something exotic to them, like an untrained Arcana check, so they have no basis for understanding when it would happen. If the PC is attempting something they're trained in, like someone with Athletics proficiency climbing a boulder, that proficiency should usually tell them when the check will occur.

Item 3 (and 4) absolutely can be "consumed every round", so for a 10 minute task, you need 100 copies of Guidance and 20 minutes, in general. The only issue with this is you'll need a ruling for partial Guidance - if the climb is 100 athletics checks and you're making 1 check for all 100 of them, and you only have 50 copies of Guidance, do you roll 1d4 and divide by 2? How do you want to handle that?

Addendum: an example way to have this actually happen is you hire a wizard/cleric hireling to have their familiar ride you during the climb and you've paid them for 50 castings of Guidance, at which point they leave to go have lunch and laugh about how poor you are.

[Tanarii]

Completed or start to finish?

Those are two different things?

I means start to finish. :)

I agree with this, though I maymake an exception if there is time and opportunity to cast the spell repeatedly for the duration of the task. I don't think it would happen often though, the constant touching and vocal components involved might be too great a distraction.

I wouldn't allow that. Each instance of the spell is a different one.

[Segev]

This, to me, boils down to the question of "when in a task do you make the roll?" Note that this is a distinct question from, "When in the task do you know the result of your roll, IC?" I don't mean the PC knows the d20 result, but rather success/failure and, if applicable, how close they came to the other result or how magnificently they succeeded or failed.

I am generally inclined to permit any single roll to benefit from guidance provided the caster has reason to know his prayer, shot of coffee, or whatever it is he's doing to provide the effects is needed. The spell is "expended" at some point during the action that results in the task, so the spell, along with everything else that the acting character does as part of the task, is part of the roll.

A prayer and blessing on the Ranger's upcoming hunt grants the bonus to the Survival check to forage for food, sure. The artificer bringing some special espresso to the Sage as he researches late into the night to try to find out information about their elusive enemy's past and possible motives or weaknesses grants the bonus to the Intelligence (Investigation) check. The bard seeing the barbarian climbing up the long cliff at the last minute singing a little inspiring ditty can grant the bonus.

As long as the activity is being attempted during the duration of the spell - even if the spell ends before the activity does - I am inclined to grant the bonus. If you want an activity to be "too complex" for a single guidance to affect it, you should break it down into multiple rolls, and probably have a branching tree of possible results as successes and failures accumulate.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The check reflects the interactions of random elements throughout the entire process. Anything that modifies the check positively has to be active throughout the entire process; anything negative only has to be active for a non-trivial amount[1] of the time. So unless you have a single instance of guidance active throughout (ie the entire process takes less than the duration of guidance, no dice. Pun intended.

Yes, this makes it very poor for social situations that don't meet the following criteria:
1. Over, start to finish, in less than a minute
2. With unobserved space before (within that minute) to cast a spell without being noticed.

So casting it before walking around the corner and trying to blow past the guards at a party by impersonating someone? Sure. Casting it while you're talking to the king in drawn-out negotiations? Yeah, no.

The first is to satisfy my requirements above (which I'll note are entirely mine, as the text is silent on the matter). The second can be avoided, but generally casting spells is noticeable and draws attention; doing so in a social situation likely means negative attention. Remember--verbal components are arcane words that are distinctly noticeable as spell casting, not normal language. So a prayer, by itself, wouldn't count.

Other situations--no, I'm not going to let you presciently cast it when someone else is making a check.

[Amnestic]

So unless you have a single instance of guidance active throughout (ie the entire process takes less than the duration of guidance, no dice.

This is impossible unless the abilitycheck is something that has an instantaneous duration. Guidance ends once you make the roll.

You touch one willing creature. Once before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to one ability check of its choice. It can roll the die before or after making the ability check. The spell then ends.

Its duration could be 24 hours instead of a minute and that wouldn't change.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is impossible unless the abilitycheck is something that has an instantaneous duration. Guidance ends once you make the roll.

Its duration could be 24 hours instead of a minute and that wouldn't change.

The roll sums up the entire process and happens at the end. But it encapsulates the effects of everything that happened. Which, in the fiction, is what guidance affects. Because, in the fiction there are no rolls.

[Segev]

The roll sums up the entire process and happens at the end. But it encapsulates the effects of everything that happened. Which, in the fiction, is what guidance affects. Because, in the fiction there are no rolls.

Right. And if you're focused on "the roll" happening during the duration of guidance, then you have to decide when the roll occurs. Does it happen at the end? Then guidance can be cast as the task is wrapping up.

[x3n0n]

As I expected, there are two big clusters of responses, with a couple in between:

* If the activity isn't completed within the buff time, no buff.
* If you can identify the beginning of the activity and cast it in advance, you get the buff.

For the hard-line "no buff" folks: do you believe the game intends to avoid providing any magical tools that would help avoid getting lost while walking through the woods for 3 hours?
If not, why?
If so, what are they?

For the "cast in advance before beginning" folks: how does that work narratively? I like Segev's take, but it feels a bit too easy to turn it into more than it really is intended for. (Then again, we don't really know what it's intended for, I guess, given the lack of narrative "fluff" attached to the spell.)

The note above from stoutstien about the skill check representing the ability to react to a change in circumstances seems relevant, and I am more and more in the camp that an extended activity is represented with most fidelity by multiple skill checks. Something like, Guidance before walking into the hall gives you +1d4 on your first Persuasion check, but you're actually making multiple Persuasion checks over the course of the negotiation, and your number of successes determines the outcome.

[Amnestic]

For the "cast in advance before beginning" folks: how does that work narratively? I like Segev's take, but it feels a bit too easy to turn it into more than it really is intended for. (Then again, we don't really know what it's intended for, I guess, given the lack of narrative "fluff" attached to the spell.)

Speaking personally, narratively, it's a burst of inspiration as you start the task. First impressions are important not only to others but yourself. Guidance giving you a mental hand of saying "you can do this" carries you through the rest of the task. Could end up being false hope if you end up failing but I think that's the sort of fluff that a divine blessing would give.

A note for requiring repeated skill checks is to watch out for having one 'fail' count as a total fail, since at that point it turns what was previously a straight pass/fail into (triple/quadruple/etc.) disadvantage.

[OldTrees1]

If something takes 2 minutes, what if they had Guidance cast twice?

Choosing to use a single athletics check for a 10m climb is a question of where to stop abstracting and how to make the RNG fit the task. It is a good idea for a simplification, however the underlying climb was a many step process. Personally I don't think 1 casting of Guidance would provide a 1d4 to a task that takes 10m. However if Guidance was kept up during that process then I might fold those periods of Guidance into a +3 to the 10m check.

[x3n0n]

A note for requiring repeated skill checks is to watch out for having one 'fail' count as a total fail, since at that point it turns what was previously a straight pass/fail into (triple/quadruple/etc.) disadvantage.

Yes, definitely. The DM would need to decide in advance how it works so that the math lines up, and we aren't "trained" to do it this way (to the extent that we're trained at all).

"Can you climb this difficult wall without falling?"
* Normal version: a commoner should fail 3/4 of the time; DC 16.
* Another approach: a commoner should fall in the first half about half the time, and fall in the second half about half the time: 2 DC 11 checks, succeed both to pass.

In that world, perhaps pre-climb Guidance applies to the first check, but not to the second. Overall success rate goes up by about half as much as it would if we had let guidance apply to the single-check version.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I wouldn't allow that. Each instance of the spell is a different one.

Yeah, that's completely understandable and despite the fact that I might consider making an exception I do agree. In the event that you're making a check that is important enough to warrant this type of diligence I would expect a better buff to be available that doesn't require a ruling like this.

This is a purely mechanical viewing of the rules though, I find the narrative reasoning that PhoenixPhyre offers to also be persuasive.

[Segev]

Is it a purely narrative objection that people have to guidance working on long-duration activities' checks? Or is there a balance reason that people are objecting? Is +1d4 on a check for an activity that takes 2 minutes or 10 hours or 30 days so much more powerful than a +1d4 on a check (like, say, trap disarming) that takes 1 round?

Or, if it's purely narrative, would house ruling it to have an indefinite duration, until Concentration is broken or a check is made, break anything for those people?

I am obviously arguing in favor of letting it work on any check, no matter the duration of the task that the check represents, but I'm curious whether the objections are balance-based or simply verisimilitude-related.

[Tanarii]

Right. And if you're focused on "the roll" happening during the duration of guidance, then you have to decide when the roll occurs. Does it happen at the end? Then guidance can be cast as the task is wrapping up.

The roll takes place during the entire duration of the activity that required a roll. However, that may be the crux of the activity. (See below).

If something takes 2 minutes, what if they had Guidance cast twice?

Choosing to use a single athletics check for a 10m climb is a question of where to stop abstracting and how to make the RNG fit the task. It is a good idea for a simplification, however the underlying climb was a many step process. Personally I don't think 1 casting of Guidance would provide a 1d4 to a task that takes 10m. However if Guidance was kept up during that process then I might fold those periods of Guidance into a +3 to the 10m check.

5e Climbing is normally capable without a check.

Climbing has a concept: the crux. Which is the most difficult part of a climb. There may be 2 or even 3 on a long climb technically.

For 5e climbing, which doesn't normally require a check, it may be the case that a roll is only needed for a short segment(s) of the climb, not the entire thing.

[MaxWilson]

This comes up periodically: you're about to start an activity that will require a skill check. A party member uses Guidance to give you +1d4 on your next skill check in the next minute.

If the activity takes less than a minute, clearly Guidance just works. (Shoving a boulder, picking many locks, investigating for traps on such a lock.)

What if it takes 2 minutes?
10 minutes?
Half an hour?
An hour?

Consider a difficult climb that should take 5-10 minutes. At many tables and in much published material, that requires a single Athletics check. Does Guidance help at all? If so, how much?

How about a Survival check to avoid getting lost over the next 2 hours?

You're about to enter the room for prolonged negotiations, attempting to Persuade them to join your side.

Thoughts?

Consider also Bardic Inspiration, which consumes a resource and lasts 10 minutes, or various leveled spells (like Enhance Ability) that last 10 minutes or an hour.

I would typically discourage that, especially for checks that involve activities that have already happened (like a History check to see if you've ever read anything about the Kraven Massacre), but if someone is genuinely willing to keep the necessary buffs up the entire time I'd allow it, even though with e.g. Guidance there would be consequences like people thinking you're a possibly-hostile nutcase for muttering spells the whole time. (If they are magically-literate enough to recognize Guidance they may just roll their eyes instead of stopping you, but they'll be extra-skeptical just in case you're trying to boost Deception.)

[heavyfuel]

You obviously shouldn't benefit from an ongoing spell effect with a duration after the duration is past.

Heal someone with Healing Spirit? They stay healed after the spell is over. Your Protection From Evil and Good ends while near a Pit Fiend? You now have to roll your save vs fear.

Same goes for Guidance. You don't benefit from it after the spell has ended. It makes no sense. Plus, Guidance is already way too strong a Cantrip, making it last beyond its duration is just stupid from a balance perspective.

[x3n0n]

You obviously shouldn't benefit from an ongoing spell effect with a duration after the duration is past.

Heal someone with Healing Spirit? They stay healed after the spell is over. Your Protection From Evil and Good ends while near a Pit Fiend? You now have to roll your save vs fear.

Same goes for Guidance. You don't benefit from it after the spell has ended. It makes no sense. Plus, Guidance is already way too strong a Cantrip, making it last beyond its duration is just stupid from a balance perspective.

As an example of someone who says you can't benefit from guidance for something that takes more than a minute, how would you respond to this?

For the hard-line "no buff" folks: do you believe the game intends to avoid providing any magical tools that would help avoid getting lost while walking through the woods for 3 hours?
If not, why?
If so, what are they?

[Segev]

Same goes for Guidance. You don't benefit from it after the spell has ended. It makes no sense.

This again raises the question of "when in the activity is the roll made?" This is a narrative argument. Nothing wrong with a narrative argument, mind, but it has a different discussion space. Which centers around what, exactly, guidance is doing and what, exactly, the roll IS. What does "the roll" mean? Remember that guidance ends when you make the roll.

Plus, Guidance is already way too strong a Cantrip, making it last beyond its duration is just stupid from a balance perspective.

This is a balance argument. Is there something about longer-term tasks that makes it more broken for them to get +1d4 than for shorter-term tasks? You state that guidance is too strong as-is, but wouldn't that just be an argument to remove it entirely, or make it level 1? Not to say that longer-term tasks are somehow too powerful with it but shorter-term ones aren't.

Unless you do think longer-term tasks ARE things that need stricter rules against improving the odds of success. If so, why?

[Valmark]

Personally I allow it to work if the Guidance can be recasted through the whole activity- with the exception that if for whatever reason I decide that the ability check is done at the beginning of the activity it doesn't need Guidance recasted afterwards (I find it extremely unlikely but it could happen).

Same thing for the various other spells.

[Tanarii]

Remember that guidance ends when you make the roll.

Which is the same as saying it ends when the activity that required a roll and benefits from guidance has ended. Since the roll encompasses the activity that requires a roll.

[Willie the Duck]

For the hard-line "no buff" folks: do you believe the game intends to avoid providing any magical tools that would help avoid getting lost while walking through the woods for 3 hours?
If not, why?
If so, what are they?

That is a good question. I don't know if I'd call it what the game intends, but I'd be willing to believe that the designers envisioned a cheap and ubiquitous magical boost might be more suited to pushing a bounder or finding a trap on a discrete door or chest than it would be to forging a whole document or passing a history test or the like.

[x3n0n]

That is a good question. I don't know if I'd call it what the game intends, but I'd be willing to believe that the designers envisioned a cheap and ubiquitous magical boost might be more suited to pushing a bounder or finding a trap on a discrete door or chest than it would be to forging a whole document or passing a history test or the like.

In a world where guidance (the cheap and ubiquitous magical boost) is only good for short-term tasks, I think that there should be a leveled cleric/druid/bard spell available in the same genre that allows a duration of "as long as necessary for anything reasonable". (Enhance Ability is close-ish, but upcasts for multiple targets instead of for duration.)


"Enhanced Guidance", 1st-level Divination, Touch, 1 action to cast, duration 1 hour (Concentration), VS.
Guidance's text?
At Higher Levels:
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd or 3rd level, you can maintain your concentration on the spell for up to 8 hours.
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, the bonus is 1d6.
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you can maintain your concentration on the spell for up to 24 hours.
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the bonus is 1d8.

[Segev]

Which is the same as saying it ends when the activity that required a roll and benefits from guidance has ended. Since the roll encompasses the activity that requires a roll.

Then casting it a minute before the task is complete should work, since you make the roll within the duration of the spell, then.

You haven't yet answered where your objection lies: is it a narrative one, wherein you think that it doesn't make sense that a minute-long effect could inspire competence sufficient for an extended activity, or is it a balance one, wherein you think that longer-term activities being able to get a +1d4 from a cantrip are overpowered (but shorter-term activities are not overpowered with +1d4 to their rolls)?