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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    In that case the best bet is probably arguing for the spell providing a glimpse of an easier way to do the thing, and it working as long it's cast any time during the activity, as long as it's no too late to contribute. "Narratively" speaking.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Not really. You seem to be trying to imply that this is somehow ridiculously powerful, and it isn't. We're talking about a +1d4, here. And the only reason it's even in question has nothing to do with it somehow being more game-breaking if it's useful on all ability checks or only some, but because of a debate over whether it can in any way be interpreted to cover long-duration checks.

    I've provided a RAW-analysis that explains exactly how it can, within the mechanics. Multiple options for interpreting its narrative to work have been provided. Snarkily dismissing them as if they're somehow bad for being attempts at finding a narrative explanation is unhelpful. Saying you don't like them is fine, but your tone implies to me that you're trying to make a point with the dismissal that it definitely can't work the way the RAW permit it to rather than trying to help find good narrative flow for it.
    In this lockpicking example though, a much more realistic narrative explanation is that the Cleric knows the Rogue will attempt to pick the lock and offers guidance. The Rogue, being an expert with Thieves Tools, picks the lock in less than a minute. The very mortal characters share a high five and continue on their adventure.

    The example given before is a bit exaggerated, and that distracts heavily from a point trying to be made. I'm honestly not even sure what the point was though, other than the poster literally said they were okay with Guidance having limited reality warping ability comparable to Wish... and that didn't seem reasonable to some.

    Besides, Wish isn't even the best comparison to the example, it's literally being touted here as a free Divine Intervention with all the bells and whistles attached except you don't even ask for it, God or Power at Be is just putting that extra juice in your life free of charge.

    While I'm thinking on the narrative aspect, the duration of the spell could be in the middle of the action, sure, but once that divine inspiration is gone it's very reasonable to also say that your now non-divine actions for an undetermined amount of time after could ruin whatever that surge of inspiration gave you. It could happen at the end, at a time where this surge of inspiration could never have been enough to correct your mistakes from the entirety of the process done before, or it could be done at the very beginning and be over and done with before you've reached a point where you would even struggle to progress. There's tons of wiggle room here to dismiss or allow it one way or another through this reasoning, leave it to each table to decide which conclusion they think is the most reasonable.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Not really. You seem to be trying to imply that this is somehow ridiculously powerful, and it isn't. We're talking about a +1d4, here. And the only reason it's even in question has nothing to do with it somehow being more game-breaking if it's useful on all ability checks or only some, but because of a debate over whether it can in any way be interpreted to cover long-duration checks.

    I've provided a RAW-analysis that explains exactly how it can, within the mechanics. Multiple options for interpreting its narrative to work have been provided. Snarkily dismissing them as if they're somehow bad for being attempts at finding a narrative explanation is unhelpful. Saying you don't like them is fine, but your tone implies to me that you're trying to make a point with the dismissal that it definitely can't work the way the RAW permit it to rather than trying to help find good narrative flow for it.
    That wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the explicit comparison of guidance to wish and then invoking retro-causality to explain it, a decidedly unparsimonious and inelegant solution with massive narrative and worldbuilding consequences. Are there any other spells or noted effects where a god intervenes ahead of being asked to? That requires logic not found elsewhere, for a cantrip (when it doesn't happen with, say, commune or augury, which are more classically divinations). The god doesn't say "oh, I know what you're going to ask already, so here's the answer". Instead you get cryptic and usually unhelpful answers to things cabined into a very small slice, with a very strong "gods don't know everything and don't know the future in any fixed detail" vibe.

    I have no problem with the mechanics either way. I don't particularly care about the power of the spell used either way. I do have substantial problems with the implications of the narrative methods proposed to make it work. Because for me, narrative fidelity and narrative coherence are way more important than anything mechanical.

    And no one has answered yet the issue of what about warlocks? I've heard multiple, mututally-contradictory methods for solving it, all of which work only under some circumstances and have to be patched together.

    Instead, I posit that there's a single, also mechanics compliant narrative that works in all cases. And even fits the spell's name. You ask for guidance on something you (or someone else) is about to do. Not something they've already done, where any interference or guidance would be retroactive and after the result is already determined.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    And no one has answered yet the issue of what about warlocks? I've heard multiple, mututally-contradictory methods for solving it, all of which work only under some circumstances and have to be patched together.
    "The Patron did it?"

    That seems the most parsimonious explanation, assuming I'm interpreting what that word means correctly from how you're using it. (I've heard it before, but never in anything resembling a positive light.)

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    "The Patron did it?"

    That seems the most parsimonious explanation, assuming I'm interpreting what that word means correctly from how you're using it. (I've heard it before, but never in anything resembling a positive light.)
    I think the issue here is that Warlocks and their Patrons don't have the "you channel my power" relationship a Cleric and their provider has*. Patrons don't do things for the Warlock beyond giving them the ability to do it themselves.
    *There are rare exceptions to this, per the PHB description.

    There's also the case where there are options for Patrons that have nowhere near the type of influence to even possibly cause the sort of "pre-ordained" style of Guidance casting you're suggesting here.

    So if we can't rationalize the Warlocks guidance in the same or similar ways, what makes the Clerics so crazy powerful narratively while being mechanically identical to the Warlocks? Shouldn't they just be narratively equal as "Hey, my power provider gave me this spell that might be able to help with this task that I can see you will be doing."
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2021-05-05 at 09:38 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    "The Patron did it?"

    That seems the most parsimonious explanation, assuming I'm interpreting what that word means correctly from how you're using it. (I've heard it before, but never in anything resembling a positive light.)
    And those warlocks whose patrons don't know they exist? And the fighters who got it via magic initiate but aren't particularly religious? What about them.

    The principle of parsimony is "don't multiply entities needlessly", akin to Occam's Razor. If you need multiple conflicting explanations for something that can be explained with one coherent one, you likely have an error in your reasoning. AKA don't do epicycles.

    Basically, needing a whole bunch of different, patchwork explanations is ugly and a sign that your theory is incomplete at best. True theories tends to be simple and elegant.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    And those warlocks whose patrons don't know they exist? And the fighters who got it via magic initiate but aren't particularly religious? What about them.

    The principle of parsimony is "don't multiply entities needlessly", akin to Occam's Razor. If you need multiple conflicting explanations for something that can be explained with one coherent one, you likely have an error in your reasoning. AKA don't do epicycles.

    Basically, needing a whole bunch of different, patchwork explanations is ugly and a sign that your theory is incomplete at best. True theories tends to be simple and elegant.
    Eh, not entirely true.

    Yes, the simplest explanation is usually the best, but it is not always right.

    And when dealing with a game, especially one that can use the same mechanic to represent different things, sometimes they CAN represent different things. ("What are hit points?" is something that explicitly can be explained by a number of different factors, all abstracted as a unified mechanic for simplicity.)

    That said, I definitely understand the desire for simplicity and unity in the theory. But that doesn't mean that Warlocks have to do it the same way Clerics do it.

    Regardless, the spell does what it says it does. HOW it does it, narratively, can be as unique to each caster or as identical across all casters as you want or need it to be for your campaign.

    Given that warlocks get their guidance cantrip from a Pact Boon that's all about cheating, perhaps their book has the secrets in it. Perhaps the book already had the story of how this came about, and they just happened to find it and, yes, this was the time when their friend succeeded at the thing. Perhaps the book somehow teaches them how to fool a god into giving them the effect a god would willingly give a cleric. Perhaps guidance when cast by a Warlock simply alters reality in a minor way such that whatever the target of the spell did happened to be more right than it otherwise might've been.

    "Parsimony" isn't the absolute virtue you're holding it up to be in this case.

    But if you want parsimony in this case: guidance does what it says it does because that's what the rules are. And I have provided analysis as to why it absolutely can be used on any check, as long as the beginning or end of the check is within the duration of the spell.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    But if you want parsimony in this case: guidance does what it says it does because that's what the rules are. And I have provided analysis as to why it absolutely can be used on any check, as long as the beginning or end of the check is within the duration of the spell.
    You haven't. You've asserted such. But there's no word one way or the other. The text itself is indeterminate. So at this point, it's DM's choice.
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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    The point about Guidance retro-actively changing what happened was a tongue in cheek answer to the assertion that "there's no (physically coherent) way Guidance can work if it's cast after you've begun".

    At my table, I just fluff Guidance as a prayer, but I do allow that prayer to alter the roll even if the activity has already begun. I do not narrate the words on parchment changing after Guidance was used on the Forgery check : I narrate the results, as if the words had been written properly from the beginning... Because they have. Although it wouldn't be absurd for the player to go back and dot a i and cross a t once he received Guidance, now that I think about it...

    (If retro-causality bothers you, the Diviner Wizard power (I had a vision of this moment which was the roll I did when waking up) and Shield (you block the attack after you know it hit you) both have some of it, and unlike Wish they are not 9th level spells. )

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    You haven't. You've asserted such. But there's no word one way or the other. The text itself is indeterminate. So at this point, it's DM's choice.
    I have yet to see anybody so much as address my post on the subject. So yes, I have asserted it and backed it up with evidence from and analysis of the rules text. I wouldn't say it's "inconclusive" when the rules explicitly state that the target can, once before the spell ends, roll 1d4 and add it to an ability check, and that he can do so before or after the ability check. Nowhere does it state that the activity representing the ability check must start and end during the duration of the spell. That's entirely an addition based on some people's narrative verisimilitude. A narrative verisimilitude I have provided possible alternate ways of sustaining. That you feel the explanation should be the same for all casters in all castings of guidance is your own criterion, and not one required by 5e. It certainly doesn't make "the text itself...indeterminate."

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I have yet to see anybody so much as address my post on the subject.
    Apparently I wasn't clear before then. I consider your analysis to have arrived at the wrong conclusion. AFAIC a literal reading of the text of the spell shows my analysis to be correct: Guidance must be active for the entire duration of the activity being assisted.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Apparently I wasn't clear before then. I consider your analysis to have arrived at the wrong conclusion. AFAIC a literal reading of the text of the spell shows my analysis to be correct: Guidance must be active for the entire duration of the activity being assisted.
    Could you point me to the post where you do this analysis? I must have missed it.

    Where does the text literally say that it must be active for the entire duration of the activity being assisted? What refutes my pointing out that it says that the target may, before the spell ends, add a d4 to an ability check, and that he may do so before or after the check, means that it does not require that the check both begin and end within the one minute duration of guidance?

    I do apologize if you have answered this and I missed it. I've scrolled back and must still be missing it, if so; I'd appreciate a link to the post in question.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Could you point me to the post where you do this analysis? I must have missed it.
    Technically in my first post, where I made the statement. But after reviewing the text, in post #43

    All I left out was a clear statement "I believe you reached the wrong conclusion" or the like.

    I suspect the problem is you're looking for a long and detailed text parsing breakdown and leaps of personal interpretation like your analysis. Mine was pretty simple. I read the text, made sure it matches my reading of the text, and wrote the result of my reading of the text as it bears on the question at hand, along with why.


    Breakdown of my analysis, in a similar style to yours

    Presumption: a roll is a game construct, the in-universe "time" it occurs is null.
    Corollary: Parsing the text game constructs doesn't allow you to map them to in-universe events.
    Shorthand comment summarizing above two statements: The rules aren't a physics engine.
    Guidance says: Do thing to a roll.
    Result: Guidance must encompass the entire in universe event to affect the game construct of a roll. It's the only way to cover the null 'mapping'.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Technically in my first post, where I made the statement. But after reviewing the text, in post #43

    All I left out was a clear statement "I believe you reached the wrong conclusion" or the like.

    I suspect the problem is you're looking for a long and detailed text parsing breakdown and leaps of personal interpretation like your analysis. Mine was pretty simple. I read the text, made sure it matches my reading of the text, and wrote my reading of the text,
    Ah, okay. Let me quote the part that is responding to me, here, and then I'll reply why I find that inadequate as a rebuttal to my analysis:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    And since the roll represents the entirety to the task, guidance must be cast before the task begins and last until after it ends to affect it.
    Nowhere in the text of the spell does it say that "the entirety of the roll" has to happen during the duration of the spell. You have not rebutted my analysis with this; you have invented a rule that isn't there. The text of the spell says that the target can roll a d4 and add it to the result of an ability check once during the duration of the spell. It says he can do this before or after the check. I will agree with anybody who interprets this to have an immediacy that forbids rolling the d4 and, 10 minutes later, applying it to a check. But I will not agree with an argument that says the check had to start and finish within the duration of the spell, because the spell doesn't say that, and nothing in its text implies that. What it says is that the d4 must be rolled and applied during the spell's duration, and that the d4 can be applied to the check before or after the check is made.

    I will agree that a perfectly valid way to interpret an ability check is that the check is non-localized to any particular time in the task - i.e., that it represents the entirety of the task's duration - and thus a single roll can represent time far greater than 1 minute. However, the task has a starting time, and an ending time. The check, under this interpretation, shares these start and end times. There is a "before" and an "after" the check, and the spell's duration can be cast such that it encompasses the time wherein the task begins or the task ends (if not necessarily both).

    You have to point to something in the text that states that the duration of the spell must cover the duration of the task, rather than merely overlapping with the beginning or end of it, in order to rebut my analysis.

    "The roll represents the entirety [of] the task," does not actually rebut my analysis at all, and "guidance must be cast before the task begins and last until after it ends to affect it," is not a logical follow-up to "the roll represents the entirety [of] the task," unless you add text to the spell that says that. The spell doesn't say that.

    If you believe I am wrong, please quote for me the text of the spell that says anything about having to start before the check is made and ending only after the check is made.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    What you're doing is trying to treat the resolution layer like a physics engine for the in-game universe. And then gamify the result.
    No, I'm not. I often do that, and don't mind it, but I most certainly am not doing so here.

    I am reading the rules and applying them to the game mechanics, yes. But if that is "treat[ing] the resolution layer like a physics engine for the in-game universe[, a]nd then gamify[ing] the result," then literally any attempt to follow the rules is doing so, including saying that you can move 30 feet in one round if your speed is 30 feet, or saying that you become unconscious and start to die if you hit 0 hp.

    The spell does what it says it does. Nothing in the spell's text says it must be in effect at the start and finish of the task. It simply says the d4 must be rolled and added to the check during the spell's duration, and that this may happen before or after the check. If the check is so long that the spell doesn't encompass the beginning AND the end, that limits the valid choice by when the spell is cast, but it doesn't mean that you can't roll the d4 and add it to the check before the check is made if the spell is in effect before you make the check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Breakdown of my analysis, in a similar style to yours

    Presumption: a roll is a game construct, the in-universe "time" it occurs is null.
    Corollary: Parsing the text game constructs doesn't allow you to map them to in-universe events.
    Shorthand comment summarizing above two statements: The rules aren't a physics engine.
    Guidance says: Do thing to a roll.
    Result: Guidance must encompass the entire in universe event to affect the game construct of a roll. It's the only way to cover the null 'mapping'.
    Thank you for this.

    You're still not refuting my point nor supporting your own, though.

    Guidance doesn't say "do a thing to a roll," it says "add a d4 to a check." I will stipulate that this is functionally identical for most purposes, but you're trying to create an abstraction layer where a "roll" happens "in null time" because it doesn't correspond directly to the activity it is determining the success/failure of.

    But, more to the point, nowhere in your analysis there do you show that guidance says it must encompass "the entire universe event." Guidance does not say that. Guidance says the target may roll a d4 and add it to the result of a check before or after the check, and that he must roll the d4 and add it before guidance ends.

    Your interpretation of null-time rolls is actually entirely incoherent with the text of guidance since there is no "before" or "after" the check if there's a null time to it, and it is contradictory to interpreting a check as equating to the task. You can't have the check both equate to the task in time and have it be null-time with no equation to the task's duration!
    Last edited by Segev; 2021-05-06 at 09:30 AM.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Obviously Adventurer's League is of dubious canonicity/authority, but for what it's worth this issue actually has been addressed in an AL module!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great Knucklehead Rally
    The characters must find the trail of Shaktal and the hypnos magen. This takes place over the course of an hour or more and is resolved with a DC 10 group ability check (see “Consequences,” below, for the results of success and failure). Two members of the party must make the following checks (as their roll for the group check):

    • A Wisdom (Survival) check to pick up and follow the trail.
    • An Intelligence (Arcana) check to realize the trail has been magically obscured.


    The remaining characters can attempt the above checks too or contribute in their own way. Here are some examples:

    • Climb vantage points, remove obstacles, or scout unsafe terrain—a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check.
    • Find and interpret clues—an Intelligence (Investigation) or Wisdom (Perception) check.
    • Look for anomalies in the surrounding landscape—an Intelligence (Nature) check.
    • Check for odd behavior in the wildlife along the trail—a Wisdom (Animal Handling) check.


    Due to the extended nature of the search, a spell, ability, or Help action provides no benefit to a character’s check unless it lasts for an hour or more. A character may still assist others by repeating an activity over the entirety of the search (e.g. by casting guidance or using the Help action). However, a character who does so automatically fails their own ability check due to splitting their focus. Players should be informed of this before they commit to assisting in this manner.
    This supports the theory I've seen thrown around a couple times that guidance only provides aid in tasks longer than a minute if the caster stays nearby and recasts it over and over for the duration. It also supports @loki_ragnarock's ruling that a character repeatedly casting guidance must dedicate their focus to doing so and cannot also being the one actually performing the guided task ("Eyes on the Heavens or eyes on the prize, but not both at the same time", as loki puts it.)

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by gloryblaze View Post
    This supports the theory I've seen thrown around a couple times that guidance only provides aid in tasks longer than a minute if the caster stays nearby and recasts it over and over for the duration. It also supports @loki_ragnarock's ruling that a character repeatedly casting guidance must dedicate their focus to doing so and cannot also being the one actually performing the guided task ("Eyes on the Heavens or eyes on the prize, but not both at the same time", as loki puts it.)
    Despite preferring the "only tasks that fit entirely in a minute" interpretation, I can accept this one without significant quibbles.
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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by x3n0n View Post
    And I wasn't clear enough when asking: I can't find *any* spells that offer a buff longer than an hour.
    If you need to have a singular instance of the buff in effect for an entire activity in order for the buff to work, then there are no spells that can ever help you do something that takes more than an hour.
    Find the Path (for the specific example of navigating through wilderness), Foresight. Propably others, those two are just what came to mind right away.
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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    The problems I've been having with Guidance are players who cast it constantly for everything, and DMs who want to prevent that by looking for excuses not to let Guidance be applicable and deny the casting. The former happens as a fellow player. It gets annoying. The latter happens when I'm the one with Guidance so of course that's the DM who is more strict. I agree and don't want to cast Guidance all the time for everything, but I do want to be able to cast the spell already DM!

    /rant
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    Rules existing are a dire threat to the divine power of the DM.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    I don't see a problem with it being cast as often as somebody is making ability checks. It is a cantrip a player spent resources to learn. It is usable at will. Let them use it. If you think it too powerful, remove it from the game. But don't play gotcha games where you fund excuses why it can't work.

    I am not even saying you can't ever not permit it. It has rules. It has to be cast and in effect before the start or end of the check. If there's reason it couldn't have been, or it definitely wasn't, you don't have to let the players retcon it. But trying to just disallow a functional casting because you find it "annoying" is like disallowing individual uses of eldritch blast because you think the warlock is using it too often in combat.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I don't see a problem with it being cast as often as somebody is making ability checks. It is a cantrip a player spent resources to learn. It is usable at will. Let them use it. If you think it too powerful, remove it from the game. But don't play gotcha games where you fund excuses why it can't work.
    I do not believe that is how it is intended to work, I see the intent as any task less than a minute where one PC is aware in advance that another PC will be doing some risky.

    Using it as a constant bonus to ability checks is far beyond the intended power of a cantrip in a bounded system. If you want it to be more, don't buff the cantrip, turn it into a 1st level slot like Bless.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I do not believe that is how it is intended to work, I see the intent as any task less than a minute where one PC is aware in advance that another PC will be doing some risky.

    Using it as a constant bonus to ability checks is far beyond the intended power of a cantrip in a bounded system. If you want it to be more, don't buff the cantrip, turn it into a 1st level slot like Bless.
    I see where you get the idea that the intent might be that, but if they wanted it to work that way, it wouldn't have been hard to say so. 5e isn't afraid of spelling out spell functions in colloquial terms. You're technically nerfing the cantrip, not me buffing it; I have spelled out the literal text of the spell, and you've yet to point out how I am wrong. You've added wording to it that you think is in line with intent, but that doesn't prove the intent nor prove the spell works differently than I've outlined.

    Another explanation for why bless is a 1st-level spell and guidance is not would be that adding to the to-hit roll is that much more powerful. Also, it affects more creatures at once.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I have spelled out the literal text of the spell, and you've yet to point out how I am wrong.
    I've done that repeatedly, and step by step in the last case. Reiterating your position doesn't make yours right or mine wrong, but we can do it all day if you like.

    But judging the power level is a different thing. Personally I think if the system is intended for a resource-free +1d4 to all ability checks, it wouldn't be hidden in a spell. It'd be like the Help action, defined with requirements in the Ability checks section.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Using it as a constant bonus to ability checks is far beyond the intended power of a cantrip in a bounded system.
    We can do that already, with no cantrip needed, by using the Help action. One character can help another character in a long task, giving the player advantage.

    With guidance, one character can help another character in a long task, giving a +1d4 bonus. To me, that seems like a good power for a cantrip.
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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    We can do that already, with no cantrip needed, by using the Help action. One character can help another character in a long task, giving the player advantage.

    With guidance, one character can help another character in a long task, giving a +1d4 bonus. To me, that seems like a good power for a cantrip.
    Some differences--

    * Help requires that the task be one suitable for more than one person to work on it simultaneously. Which rules out a lot of ability checks.
    * Help requires that the helper be able to accomplish the task himself. Which rules out a huge other swath of abilities checks.

    Neither of those is true for guidance. Not only that, but Help and guidance stack, which means blowing up the expected curve.
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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I've done that repeatedly, and step by step in the last case. Reiterating your position doesn't make yours right or mine wrong, but we can do it all day if you like.

    But judging the power level is a different thing. Personally I think if the system is intended for a resource-free +1d4 to all ability checks, it wouldn't be hidden in a spell. It'd be like the Help action, defined with requirements in the Ability checks section.
    No, you have step-by-step added text or meaning to text that is not there.

    I have actively refuted your claim as I understand it. I will repeat your claim as I understand it here; please correct me if I am wrong about your claim:

    You state that the ability check represents the entire activity being undertaken in the fiction layer. Because of this, there is no point in time where the ability check "happens;" it encompasses the entire activity. Therefore, the entire activity must happen within the duration of Guidance for the spell to apply to the check.

    Is this a fair and accurate restatement of your position?
    Last edited by Segev; 2021-05-10 at 12:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Sorry Segev, I'm not going to play this game, I recognize your debate tactic and am not falling for it. I've stated my position and also refuted yours. You've done the same. That's sufficient.

    If you're interested in discussion the game balance and impact in a bounded accuracy system of being able to add +1d4 at the cost of a cantrip to every single skill check, and maybe probable designer intent (especially if we can find some quotes about that) of being able to do so, I'm game for that.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Sorry Segev, I'm not going to play this game, I recognize your debate tactic and am not falling for it. I've stated my position and also refuted yours. You've done the same. That's sufficient.

    If you're interested in discussion the game balance and impact in a bounded accuracy system of being able to add +1d4 at the cost of a cantrip to every single skill check, and maybe probable designer intent (especially if we can find some quotes about that) of being able to do so, I'm game for that.
    Why is it that if I try to debate without restating somebody's position, I'm told I'm "misrepresenting" them and they refuse to engage with me, but when I do my best to clearly restate what I think their position is, it's "a debate tactic" they "recognize" and are "not falling for?" I don't even know what tactic you think I'm using, but you certainly insinuate I am not debating in good faith with the assertion that you're "not falling for it." I even did my best to present it as reasonable-sounding as I could, despite my disagreement with several points in it.

    You haven't refuted my position. You have stated that you disagree with it, but nothing you wrote actually cited any text that disproved what I said. As best I can tell, what I wrote that you claim is "a debate tactic" is what you're asserting as your "rebuttal" to my analysis. Which means it isn't a rebuttal, since the premise of it (that an ability check corresponds to the entirety of the in-narrative task) doesn't lead to the conclusion (that the task must fall entirely within the duration of guidance). Nowhere in your rebuttal do you address that guidance states the d4 is rolled and added during the duration, and can be done before or after the ability check, which inherently means that there is no point in the rules that requires the entire task to happen during that minute.

    I am still waiting for a rebuttal to that point; what I have seen and understood from you is what I have outlined, which in no way proves my analysis incorrect nor supports even the conclusion you draw. I must assume that the conclusion is the rebuttal you say you've made, but while I understand the way you come to that conclusion, it doesn't actually draw on the RAW of guidance, and therefore doesn't serve as a rebuttal to my argument.




    As to the balance question, if we accept for sake of discussion that there is a design intent that guidance only work on some ability checks but not others, and that that is how it is kept from being overpowered, why would long-duration ability checks be so much more overpowered if a d4 could be added to them than, say, an attempt to pick a lock, coax an animal out of hiding, or jump across a chasm slightly wider than your Strength score might otherwise allow? Why is it more broken to allow it to work on a couple hours' research, for example? (I actually find myself hard-pressed to come up with ability checks, here, that take more than 1 minute; most are going to be ad hoc calls by the DM, because the RAW for most examples I can think of actually are downtime activities with no ability checks required.)

    It seems to me that the argument for balance that requires guidance sometimes not be applicable is not particularly strong because there's no rhyme nor reason - balance-wise - why the ability checks being denied by any of these rulings would be overpowered with +d4 to them, while those nobody disputes it works on would be fine.

    If you want to argue that +d4 to ability checks without spending a spell slot is overpowered, that's one thing, but that's not the argument being made, here. The argument being made, here, as far as I can tell, is that it has to work only on a subset of ability checks if it's to be a cantrip, but that it doesn't actually matter what that subset is, as long as it's a subset. This is a poor argument for balance. You may as well argue that you should have to flip a coin every time you cast it to determine if it works on this skill check or not.

    I'm not even arguing that it should mean that you assume +d4 to every check. The spell does have requirements for its use: it has to be active when you start or finish the ability check, and it has verbal and somatic components. The caster has to be in range to use it on the ability check performer within 1 minute of the performer rolling and adding the d4. It requires the caster's Concentration. All of these can hinder it. I'm not arguing they shouldn't.

    I am arguing that trying to invent extra ways that it doesn't work "for balance" is not actually achieving any balance-related aims, because the list of times it can and cannot be used don't actually bear on any potential abuses or the like. Cantrips aren't cheap to learn. Concentration isn't a free resource, either.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    I don't think you're arguing in bad faith. What you're doing is continually drawing in on something I consider irreconcilable viewpoints, so there's no further argument possible. That's the rhetorical trick. I guess I should have said, I've reached the agree to disagree point. I apologize for the insult.

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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Some differences--

    * Help requires that the task be one suitable for more than one person to work on it simultaneously. Which rules out a lot of ability checks.
    * Help requires that the helper be able to accomplish the task himself. Which rules out a huge other swath of abilities checks.

    Neither of those is true for guidance. Not only that, but Help and guidance stack, which means blowing up the expected curve.
    On the other hand, the help action doesn't require you to have chosen a cantrip (a very limited resource).

    As for help and guidance stacking, that requires three characters to spend the entire duration working together to achieve a goal. That sounds like a good thing to me, encouraging characters to work together.
    Quote Originally Posted by ad_hoc View Post
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    Default Re: Guidance (etc) and activities with a longer duration

    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    On the other hand, the help action doesn't require you to have chosen a cantrip (a very limited resource).

    As for help and guidance stacking, that requires three characters to spend the entire duration working together to achieve a goal. That sounds like a good thing to me, encouraging characters to work together.
    By the permissive reading, it takes two characters--the helper and the blesser can be the same. And only two actions from the helper/blesser--cast guidance 30s before you begin, then help once at the start. Then walk away.

    I agree that under the more restrictive reading, the stacking (and guidance itself) aren't an issue because of the very high cost and promotion of teamwork.
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