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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Not to be not picky Keen, bit my FOS is on Murska, my vote is on RA.
    Thanks for pointing that out. And sorry for misunderstanding.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Valmark's Avatar

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    In a kind of annoying way, all of these three statements ping a little wolfy to me. In the sense of a townie could say them, but it also sounds a bit here's my read on each of those "if they were a wolf"...

    For Elenna, sounds like how a wolf wanting to protect wolf!totaldileplayz would post, without wanting to stretch out their neck too far. Or possibly prep for moving off wolf!rogue_alchemist if that wagon gets strong.
    Also, like some of her earlier posts, it just feels a tad off to me.
    And those where she was giving legitimate critique and questions about my plan could be a wolf feeling out how much I'm worth dealing with or not.
    Elenna smells a bit to me too. Not like it's something Town wouldn't do (I did it too in previous games) but it's still a convinient place to put herself in, since it makes perfect sense to not push a wagon that is already ahead.

    Not much but it's not like I have anything better on hand.
    Last edited by Valmark; 2021-05-08 at 07:43 AM.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Thanks for pointing that out. And sorry for misunderstanding.
    I think the final sign that this game has broken my brain a little is that my spontaneous reaction to this was: "Too friendly! Suspicious!".

    I'm not saying that's an actual suspicion, but I guess I'm not not saying that either...

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Thanks for pointing that out. And sorry for misunderstanding.
    Not a big deal. Just want to make it clear. I'm voting for RA because I'd rather play (win or lose) when everyone is playing than have a no show. Waiting for more info but definitely suspicious of Murska right now.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Elenna.

    Not that I trust totaldileplayz, but I know he's felt very wolfy to me before when he's been Town, and his critique of me has merits. I had stayed on totaldile because, if he flipped wolf, that sorta proves Murksa as Town; figured the death might give more info than Elenna's.

    However, there's been a couple times when Elenna has pinged me as wolf, I don't vote her, and she flips wolf. And now, if Elenna flips wolf, good reason to trust Valmark. So Elenna it is.

    I'll try to get online later tonight (Day ends around early morning, my time zone, if I understand it right), in case there's relevant movements, claims, and/or counterclaims... but I might not be online until Saturday night.
    Last edited by JeenLeen; 2021-05-07 at 09:40 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Not that I trust totaldileplayz, but I know he's felt very wolfy to me before when he's been Town
    I'm sort of thinking the same thing. I get kind of a shady vibe from totaldileplayz for some reason but I got a very similar feel from them last game, where they turned out to be town.

    That said, I'm feeling unsure about whom to move my vote to. On one hand, I kinda do want to go with my very scientific "response too nice" and vote JeenLeen. Although...

    Hmm.

    Ah, what the hell. My brain's giving me nothing so I might as well go with my gut. JeenLeen.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    ElfRogueGirl

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    I think it's pretty pointless having a wagon on an inactive. They're not defending themselves, so there's nothing to learn.
    Yeah, maybe, but I really didn't have any other suspicions besides totadile, so given that I'd rather lynch someone who seems like they're not going to contribute.


    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Elenna smells a bit to me too. Not like it's something Town wouldn't do (I did it too in previous games) but it's still a convinient place to put herself in, since it makes perfect sense to not push a wagon that is already ahead.

    Not much but it's not like I have anything better on hand.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    For Elenna, sounds like how a wolf wanting to protect wolf!totaldileplayz would post, without wanting to stretch out their neck too far. Or possibly prep for moving off wolf!rogue_alchemist if that wagon gets strong.
    Also, like some of her earlier posts, it just feels a tad off to me.
    And those where she was giving legitimate critique and questions about my plan could be a wolf feeling out how much I'm worth dealing with or not.

    Book_Wombat could be trying to protect wolf!rogue_alchemist by a slight defense that would make others less likely to vote them, but not draw a lot of attention.
    But I still lean town given pointing out the flaws in my plan.
    See, I kinda figured someone would say "Elenna is a wolf trying to protect totadile". But at the same time, if I hadn't made that post, I was worried people would say "Elenna is throwing shade on totadile but not actually voting them, obvious distancing." So I figured I was better off trying to explain my thoughts.

    Anyways, there's other non-totadile wagons right now, and I'd rather totadileplayz get lynched as opposed to me or Jeen, so I'll move my vote.

    By the way, why is my critiquing your plan possibly wolfy, but BW critiquing it is towny?

    Actually I think BW's comment about Tea not being the baner is NAI. It's a pretty obvious flaw, and one the wolves can't really take advantage of easily. If I were a wolf and I saw that you mistook Tea for the baner, I'd expect other people to notice it too, so I'd probably post about it to try to get town points.
    For comparison, Apogee mentioning the vortexer feels towny to me, because that's a somewhat less obvious issue and it's also something that the wolves might hope to quietly use to mess up your plan. So it's something that might actually hurt the wolf side to point out, unlike the thing with Tea.
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    I think it's neat how quick an Elenna wagon manifested.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'll get some ISOs done tonight when I've got time. Just wanted to make sure somebody said it.


    Currently Recruiting WW/Mafia: Nothing currently. Maybe come start one?

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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Night add more detail later. Need to get myself a new vote tally. Something feels off about Jeen though. Haven't placed it yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    I think it's neat how quick an Elenna wagon manifested.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'll get some ISOs done tonight when I've got time. Just wanted to make sure somebody said it.

    This this was i feel like I'm not following the Elena wagon but I'll look back over it.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Elenna kinda justified herself, at least in part, and now I feel totaldile's flip might yield at least as much info as her own... and neither has bothered to claim...
    Back to totaldileplayz.

    Side note: that Cao has been quiet makes me suspect he might be a wolf avoiding attention. But, really, it's not unlikely the wolves are just laughing and happy with whichever wagon goes through. But I admit there's plenty of potential real life reasons for the quiet, and this thought mainly came from wanting to see a current vote count like he does.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Night add more detail later. Need to get myself a new vote tally. Something feels off about Jeen though. Haven't placed it yet.
    Perhaps just my indecisiveness about whether to vote totaldile or Elenna?
    Strange as it is to say it, I feel uncomfortable with the response to me switching my vote, so that's an irrational part of switching it back. But I am rather undecided. If I were Seto, I'd probably target whichever one of them didn't get lynched today.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    I think it's neat how quick an Elenna wagon manifested.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'll get some ISOs done tonight when I've got time. Just wanted to make sure somebody said it.
    AV, I tend to read "neat" in statements like that as "likely caused, or participated in, by the wolves".
    After you do ISOs, I'd be curious if you really feel that way. I'd think it way too risky to risk piling up on Elenna late Day to save a scumbuddy.

    I saw it more as tensions and suspicions reaching a bit of a tipping point, then Valmark voted her and I followed.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    AV, I tend to read "neat" in statements like that as "likely caused, or participated in, by the wolves".
    After you do ISOs, I'd be curious if you really feel that way. I'd think it way too risky to risk piling up on Elenna late Day to save a scumbuddy.

    I saw it more as tensions and suspicions reaching a bit of a tipping point, then Valmark voted her and I followed.
    That's a valid reading. I'm not declaring that's what I think happened, but you gotta admit it looks bad at first glance. It's easy to read your actions as "presents flawed plan, panics and pushes attention onto totadile, then for some reason panics and pushes attention onto Elenna". There's weirdness in there that looks sketchy upon initial viewing, and I'm gonna do my deep dive later and see if there's something more to see with what exists so far.

    I'll have time to do ISOs in a few hours, and I'll put full thought into it once I reach that point.


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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    So, for things that happened since my last post.

    gac joins the game

    He's had a good number of posts, even if I disagree with a lot of his arguements. No opinion on him yet, but I think his ISO will help me form an opinion.


    rogue_alchemist still has not

    So, RA doesn't always show up Day 1 which can be concerning but I don't think my vote is best used there. At this point there's been enough talking that I'd rather a lych that we'd get more info from, rather than someone afk.

    BatCatHat posts in general

    A couple posts that basically say I hope I'm not looking suspicious (but what if saying that was suspicous. At least joins the Jeen Leen wagon near the end. Curious if you have opinions on the other wagons (mostly totadile and Elenna at this point).

    Murska v Totadile

    A post addressing Totadile (and the accusation against Jeen) before a convo about WIFOM. My gut instinct is that Jeen's plan comes from a town perspective but I'll talk more about that later.

    Jeen Leen
    Spoiler: Long quotes
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I want to reread totaldileplayz' accusation against me before I comment on it and consider moving my vote. But I agree in general with those defending me that this seems a horrible ploy for a wolf to do, especially early D1.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post

    I'll be up-front that I'm aware this totally can look like a wolf defending himself, but folk have asked for my response, and I find this a fun thing to do between some annoying projects at work.

    Also, I'll start off with moving my vote to totaldileplayz.
    Nothing definite, but he might be a wolf trying to get me lynched before my plan has to be dealt with. (Even if it's flawed, it'd be annoying for the wolves to have to deal with.)
    Also don't like how he speculated on my Role publicly. Like he's doing the wolves thinking for them. I'd like to think the Town (even if they strongly suspect my Role) wouldn't share their thoughts until D2 lest it influence wolf actions N1.
    I am not confirming or denying his speculation. Just the fact he made some is what seems iffy. Also, if I were any of you, I'd be considering the fact that JeenLeen might be lying about what his plan really is and what Role he's hinting he has. I have done that as Town before. But I'm honest this time. :P

    The "maybe he is Town" thoughts are that 1) accusing me like that is risky for a wolf, 2) nothing sounds dishonest in his post. Still, a good wolf can sound honest.

    ...

    I get you don't necessarily trust this, as I could be a wolf defending myself... but, well, anyway, posting it anyway.

    ...

    Mark against me: the last game taught how, in a small game, the wolves don't need to look very towny for long. I could see a ploy like this in a very small game.
    But this isn't a very small game (for our forum's standards).

    The only reason I can really see for wolf!me to do this ploy early D1 is a half-hearted attempt to defend wolf!Cao (who got 2 votes), in hopes this somehow moves votes off them. It would go with me questioning Murksha's motivations.
    But as I don't defend Cao or accuse anyone else in any way via this ploy.

    So, yeah, I get your point that it could be a wolf ploy D1 to gain leadership, but I also don't think it's a strong one.
    Well, here's one case where it would almost get the wolves a win, if Bakura knows certain Roles don't exist.

    [partially explains how it would make sense as a wolf ploy]

    ...

    Cao, if you flip wolf later and I get killed because of D1... well, kudos to you wolves
    Ditto to Murksha. Your defense of me is basically my defense in short. If you flip wolf and that gets me killed, good move looking rational towny while setting me up to look like a scumbuddy.


    So, I understand his vote against totadile and it doesn't feel like OMGUS. But he spends a lot of time discussing his plan and continues on about how bad it can be: how it's not perfect, why he might look wolfish, and then how the plan could be helpful to the wolves in a situation.

    The comments of how he'd be suspicious if myself or Murska flips wolf seems... really weird to me. I can't put my finger on exactly how but it feels like a weird bit to add in.

    Spoiler: More quotes
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Elenna.

    Not that I trust totaldileplayz, but I know he's felt very wolfy to me before when he's been Town, and his critique of me has merits. I had stayed on totaldile because, if he flipped wolf, that sorta proves Murksa as Town; figured the death might give more info than Elenna's.

    However, there's been a couple times when Elenna has pinged me as wolf, I don't vote her, and she flips wolf. And now, if Elenna flips wolf, good reason to trust Valmark. So Elenna it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Elenna kinda justified herself, at least in part, and now I feel totaldile's flip might yield at least as much info as her own... and neither has bothered to claim...
    Back to totaldileplayz.

    Perhaps just my indecisiveness about whether to vote totaldile or Elenna?
    Strange as it is to say it, I feel uncomfortable with the response to me switching my vote, so that's an irrational part of switching it back. But I am rather undecided. If I were Seto, I'd probably target whichever one of them didn't get lynched today.

    AV, I tend to read "neat" in statements like that as "likely caused, or participated in, by the wolves".
    After you do ISOs, I'd be curious if you really feel that way. I'd think it way too risky to risk piling up on Elenna late Day to save a scumbuddy.

    I saw it more as tensions and suspicions reaching a bit of a tipping point, then Valmark voted her and I followed.


    The flipping back and forth between the two isn't great, especially with the lampshading that he was uncomfortable with how people reacted to his vote on Elenna. Still, my gut says again that a wolf wouldn't put that in their post.

    tl;dr Feels weird, but feels townie weird to me.


    Elenna

    Elenna further presses on why the plan wouldn't be great, but still leaves her vote on RA. Gives a couple townreads and then throws some suspicion on to totadile. Later explains:

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    I'm fine with a totadile lynch, but there's enough people on them, for now I'm thinking I'll stay on rogue for a competing wagon.
    Seems to only leave the RA wagon once her own was large enough to be a problem. Could come from a townie of course, but I again am not a fan of an RA wagon now so I wish she (and gac, for that matter) had moved her vote earlier.

    Avatar Vecna

    Made some more posts, but not enough for me to judge town or wolf. Looking to see a read list soon.

    Jeen and gac

    They had a back and forth, with Jeen gac's reads as possibly wolfy but also saying he had an overall town read on gac. Don't really have much more to say on this back and forth at the moment but I'm keeping it in mind.




    Gonna do another (shorter) post in a bit (with a vote change) but want to get this in before I'm ninja'd too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Side note: that Cao has been quiet makes me suspect he might be a wolf avoiding attention. But, really, it's not unlikely the wolves are just laughing and happy with whichever wagon goes through. But I admit there's plenty of potential real life reasons for the quiet, and this thought mainly came from wanting to see a current vote count like he does.
    I haven't posted for... over 24 hours, longer than I thought. Real life reason was sleep, then work, then family but that's sort of beside the point. Vote count below.




    Vote Count:
    totadileplayz (4): BookWombat, Murska, Elenna, JeenLeen
    AvatarVecna (1): CaoimhinTheCape
    JeenLeen (2): totadileplayz, BatCatHat
    Gac3 (1): AvatarVecna
    Elenna (2): Apogee1, Valmark
    rogue_alchemist (1): Gac3

    Not Voting: rogue_alchemist

    - - - Updated - - -

    At this point, I'm focusing on Elenna and Totodile. Jeen's wagon is the same size as Elenna, but I've talked a lot about Jeen so far and I don't want to lynch him today.

    Elenna

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily rule out Dark Necrofear, since Xi was debating it originally, adding one more player could have pushed her into adding it. But yeah, not really something we can know much about till they die.

    rogue_alchemist, any thoughts? (RNG vote)
    The random vote and the wording doesn't mean much to me either way, but if she's a wolf, it could be someone from the wolf team trying to make it harder for Town to guess their roles even after the group said in recruitment that Dark Necrofear probably wouldn't fit well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    I'm pretty sure I've seen bad D1 plans significantly more often from town than from wolves. All else aside, wolves have more incentive to keep their heads down. Plus what Murska said about how wolves are likely to think it through more.

    Keeping my vote on rouge_alchemist for now as pressure for him to vote/post.


    I'm still very confused by what your plan is here. The "finding the true seer" part won't work if they're vortexed away from you. And I'm not quite sure how you plan to catch Diabound, unless your plan is that everyone Dark Magician Girl saw should publically claim? Which seems sketchy. But how else would Dark Magician Girl distinguish between Diabound and amyone else?

    Also I feel like the general issue with a large towncore in this game will be that the 2 QT role means that when enough players are involved, information will have to be passed around like a game of Telephone, so if a wolf gets in it would be easy for them to sabotage plans or information gathering. Which is of course part of the reason for that rule.
    So making a network with "probably only one wolf" doesn't seem that great...
    (Side note: took out parts about the RNG wording and the Day length)

    A defense of Jeen then keeping a vote on RA for pressure. I'm of the opinion that that pressure vote was not helping, but that's not necessarily strong evidence against.

    Talks about Jeen's plan and then about networking. First instinct was that it was good to bring up that part of the game but after rereading it I feel vibes of "we won't be able to trust networking anyway" and I don't like the vague discouragement there.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Slight townread for trying to get town out of "single random vote" territory? Although Murska is more than good enough of a player to do that as a wolf.

    I like Apogee looking for wolfreads (even if he's wrong about me ) and pointing out the vortexer issue.

    Hmm I don't think Jeen is right about wolf!totadile trying to sabotage their plan (mostly because I still don't think Jeen's plan would work, so no sabotage needed), but I will agree that public speculation on townie roles doesn't look good.
    Townread on Murska and Apogee, shade thrown on totadile. I like that we have some idea of her opinion of other players, even if it doesn't tell me much about her being town/wolf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    I'm fine with a totadile lynch, but there's enough people on them, for now I'm thinking I'll stay on rogue for a competing wagon.
    Could be exactly what she says in her post, but could be holding back from putting a more helpful vote down. There's the chance that both are wolves and she was trying to stay off of a buddy while distancing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Yeah, maybe, but I really didn't have any other suspicions besides totadile, so given that I'd rather lynch someone who seems like they're not going to contribute.

    See, I kinda figured someone would say "Elenna is a wolf trying to protect totadile". But at the same time, if I hadn't made that post, I was worried people would say "Elenna is throwing shade on totadile but not actually voting them, obvious distancing." So I figured I was better off trying to explain my thoughts.

    Anyways, there's other non-totadile wagons right now, and I'd rather totadileplayz get lynched as opposed to me or Jeen, so I'll move my vote.

    By the way, why is my critiquing your plan possibly wolfy, but BW critiquing it is towny?

    Actually I think BW's comment about Tea not being the baner is NAI. It's a pretty obvious flaw, and one the wolves can't really take advantage of easily. If I were a wolf and I saw that you mistook Tea for the baner, I'd expect other people to notice it too, so I'd probably post about it to try to get town points.
    For comparison, Apogee mentioning the vortexer feels towny to me, because that's a somewhat less obvious issue and it's also something that the wolves might hope to quietly use to mess up your plan. So it's something that might actually hurt the wolf side to point out, unlike the thing with Tea.
    Moves to totadile only after her wagon has 3 people on it. There's some lampshade hanging with the "I knew someone would think that" statement, so that doesn't really do much for me.

    Gives more reads on BW (null) and reinforces a town read on Apogee. Helpful info but doesn't tell me much about her alignment (at the moment).



    Totodile

    Spoiler
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    Quote Originally Posted by totadileplayz View Post
    I'll vote Batcathat for now. Not likely we'll figure out much for right now.
    Random vote, not much of anything here.

    Quote Originally Posted by totadileplayz View Post
    Ok I have to be honest. I actually fail to see how in any mafia set up adding a bunch of heat to a specific townie can help when a possible mafia transporter means that heat could be redirected anywhere. Or he could be the killer which means all card effects are nulled and simply say the lover must have targeted him.

    So then cross-checking we try to look at the townie roles and see what ones makes it a logical play.
    the only logical result would be Mai Verbatim the only one that relies on them being targeted.

    The question becomes is the all too real possibility that he's simply trying to deny as many players abilities as possible true or is it a bad mai verbatim play? So far this is the most wolfy play someone's done as far as I can see, and it's at least better then random voting. I mean two wolf's could use it or a single possible town role.

    Jeenleen
    Page 1 vote change to Jeen, which has stuck. First read through was that a vote against Jeen (talkative person I have a townread on) was sketchy but now that we've thought about the plan a bit more (and there's more holes in it than I would like) I understand totadile's vote. I don't like the public speculation on Jeen's role, so points against there.

    Quote Originally Posted by totadileplayz View Post
    I tend to think on what I'd do, since it helps avoid some of my own psychological problems and yes I seriously believe I would do that as a wolf. In the most serious means becoming the hub for the town gives you a very powerful role, and this play can do that. As a wolf a relatively low chance of death, for a high chance for an effectively won game is a solid play. And the serious notion that wolves should be quiet and reserved is a misnomer, wolves want to direct the town to kill other town. This play if successful as a wolf would do that, and there's not much chance once we become enscorcelled in it that we'd be able to escape it.
    Mostly discussion on gameplay and strategy rather than anything particularly relevant to the case against JeenLeen. Wish there was more to go on but that's the last post.




    So, as much as we've talked about both options these very much feel like Day 1 wagons to me (nothing enough to make me completely sure of either). Of the two, I'm going to vote Elenna. Overall Elenna's posts have felt a little more wolfish on a gut level to me (although, totadile hasn't really been around lately to give me any sort of gut feel) and I would like to see competing wagons so we'll push the two closer.





    Vote Count:
    totadileplayz (4): BookWombat, Murska, Elenna, JeenLeen
    JeenLeen (2): totadileplayz, BatCatHat
    Gac3 (1): AvatarVecna
    Elenna (3): Apogee1, Valmark, CaoimhinTheCape
    rogue_alchemist (1): Gac3

    Not Voting: rogue_alchemist

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Oh, look at all these posts already. That's what I get for forgetting to check the forums all evening.

    Dice are fickle, so let's stick with returning the favor for now. totadileplayz
    Batcathat, please strike through old votes. My memory isn't good enough to catch this every time I go back through the votes.
    Spoiler: Quotes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    If Xi and I agree some more, I will start to doubt my own alignment!
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Spoiler: Batcathat ISO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Oh, look at all these posts already. That's what I get for forgetting to check the forums all evening.

    Dice are fickle, so let's stick with returning the favor for now. totadileplayz
    NAI on its own. If they were a more experienced player, I'd be wondering if this old vote not being crossed out was a sign that something fishy is afoot, but...they're pretty new.

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Hey gac. This is my second game ever, I'd say something snarky about my confusion at everything but already did that all last game and knowing the psycho-analytical triple think in these games, it'd probably just make me look suspicious. (Wait. Did this now make me look suspicious? Thinking this much about what I'm saying makes me feel like I'm on a first date, except my date might be trying to kill me).
    Kinda reads like dunking on deep analysis stuff, but that could just be newbie talking. I could see a newb-wolf doing this kinda thing: joking in a way that subtly tries to discourage deeper analysis. A more experienced wolf would know that's the kind of thing that can get you analyzed harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    I was wondering about that too, but since no one else seemed to be I just assumed I'd overlooked it somewhere.
    I'm not really a fan of this kinda post in general cuz it's slightly more often than not a wolf thing. Townie points out X, wolf says "I was just thinking X too but didnt wanna say anything". It doesn't really contribute to the conversation, it's trying to look more helpful than you're actually being. Of course, it's an easy thing for newer townies to do, though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    I think the final sign that this game has broken my brain a little is that my spontaneous reaction to this was: "Too friendly! Suspicious!".

    I'm not saying that's an actual suspicion, but I guess I'm not not saying that either...
    Oh good, you're learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    I'm sort of thinking the same thing. I get kind of a shady vibe from totaldileplayz for some reason but I got a very similar feel from them last game, where they turned out to be town.

    That said, I'm feeling unsure about whom to move my vote to. On one hand, I kinda do want to go with my very scientific "response too nice" and vote JeenLeen. Although...

    Hmm.

    Ah, what the hell. My brain's giving me nothing so I might as well go with my gut. JeenLeen.
    Claims to suspect totadile (the leading wagon at the time, IIRC), then votes JeenLeen as part of a counter-wagon to first suspicion. Could be trying to make sure their two suspects are both lynch candidates today, and I do like how the train of thought is clearly shown to just kinda be drifting. If JeenLeen flips wolf, I'm inclined to think BCH is safe. If totadile flips wolf, though, this post suddenly looks a lot worse.


    Slight wolf lean. There's a number of things here that would more than justify a vote in my eyes, but they're also moves that newer players could easily make as a townie.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Spoiler: Apogee1 ISO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee1 View Post
    I cast pot of greed
    It allows me to draw two wolfreads from my head

    Elenna

    Super thin but the "(RNG)" in parenthesis post random vote felt kinda well awkwardly justified

    Also thought Cao's response to Murska could be overblown at a stretch
    Both cases feel a lil weak to me but I can kinda see the logic behind them. And I guess a D1 vote doesn't have to have the strongest evidence ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee1 View Post
    Jeen I can guess somewhat as to what your plan is. Have you considered how the vortexer interacts with it (in the -- in my opinion likely -- case that wolves have a vortexer)?
    Townie points for bringing up wolf capabilities as a possible counter to a flawed plan. Wolf team would support a plan vulnerable to vortexing. The upside to a wolf reminding town the vortexer is probably in the roster is that it makes town more doubtful of plan results, but given how the convo went in the recruitment thread, I think we all know what kinda powers the wolf team is looking at, so there's no extra chaos to spread by bringing it up - better to let the planner who forgot just not think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee1 View Post
    I tend to agree with the latter line, and think the "Honestly that's fair" into walking back the comment is moderately wolfy.

    I'm not sure the extra if anything is something that like you can apply the wolves-edit-posts tell to. Almost think its the opposite, where a sentence was being constructed to look neutral and/or open and the if-anything double piled up because of that. Though yes, not a read I'll hinge a ton on (the above though, yes).
    I'm not ready to call this townie points, but given that the discussion could've easily lead to a Cao wagon, I think an A1/Cao scum team is less likely than other combos.

    EDIT: Correction, at the time this post was made, Cao already had two votes on him. This couldn't have lead to a Cao wagon, but it could've solidified the already-existent one further. If the scum team is A1/Cao, that's cold.


    Slight town lean. There isn't too much posting from Apogee1, but I like what I'm seeing so far.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Spoiler: CaoimhinTheCape ISO
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Well, let's get going then. AvatarVecna, due to random rolling.
    NAI. As randvotes often are.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Is me doing a random vote an actual reason for the vote against me? I get the other two pieces but everyone has to randomly vote to start since we don't have any info.






    Vote Count:
    Apogee1 (1): JeenLeen
    rogue_alchemist (1): Elenna
    totadileplayz (1): BookWombat
    AvatarVecna (1): CaoimhinTheCape
    BatCatHat (1): totadileplayz
    CaoimhinTheCape (2): Valmark, Murska

    Not Voting: AvatarVecna, BatCatHat, Apogee1, rogue_alchemist, Gac3
    I don't think this is overwrought the way Apogee did. It's reasonable to point at "randvotes" as a bad reason to vote Cao when everybody is randvoting.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Honestly, that's fair. If anything starting a wagon feels vaguely townish, if anything. Just wanted an explanation on the random bit.


    Not sure what exactly to make of Valmark deciding not to make a wagon with their vote, if anything.



    Most importantly, Book makes a good point about the role. Does that change your plan/idea Jeen?






    Vote Count:
    Apogee1 (1): JeenLeen
    rogue_alchemist (1): Elenna
    totadileplayz (1): BookWombat
    AvatarVecna (1): CaoimhinTheCape
    BatCatHat (1): totadileplayz
    CaoimhinTheCape (2): Valmark, Murska
    Gac3 (1): AvatarVecna
    totadileplayz (1): BatCatHat
    Elenna (1): Apogee1

    Not Voting: rogue_alchemist, Gac3
    It was sus then and it's sus now. Apogee even pointed out how my thing about the "if anything"s could've been a wolf-edit to make it look like a less extreme response.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    I'll address the bottom part at least. The main point of the post was to acknowledge Murska's response, which was me saying I didn't see the vote (or his response) as wolfish. I wanted a response to the random vote comment, and I said I was happy with the response, even if I could have cut down on my word count to say that.

    I also wanted to acknowledge what else had gone on, so I made a note that I was thinking over Valmark's decision not to make a wagon. As for Jeen, I wanted to echo what Book Wombat said and am waiting on Jeen's response. I guess neither line was really necessary but I'll tend to throw in those extra comments, when there's so little to talk about in the first place.



    It's true that I'm not calling anyone out, but I don't know that there is anyone that needs to be called out right now? Valmark's vote change to avoid a wagon is the closest to anything I would say something about, but I really don't think a Wolf would draw attention to themselves by changing the vote to a new person. Might as well leave it and say you wanted to get conversation started by making a wagon.

    As for Jeen, I want to see a response before I judge his mistaking one power for another. Jeen has made plans based on his power before (definitely as town, not sure as wolf) but I want to see him talk through it more, especially if he miscalculated.








    Vote Count:
    Apogee1 (1): JeenLeen
    rogue_alchemist (1): Elenna
    totadileplayz (1): BookWombat
    AvatarVecna (1): CaoimhinTheCape
    JeenLeen (1): totadileplayz
    CaoimhinTheCape (2): Valmark, Murska
    Gac3 (1): AvatarVecna
    totadileplayz (1): BatCatHat
    Elenna (1): Apogee1

    Not Voting: rogue_alchemist, Gac3
    See this is the kinda thorough explanation I was hoping to see from the previous post. This goes into detail on Cao's thought process more, and makes the previous post look a bit better for it. Probably why the wagon on Cao's faded away.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    So, for things that happened since my last post.

    gac joins the game

    He's had a good number of posts, even if I disagree with a lot of his arguements. No opinion on him yet, but I think his ISO will help me form an opinion.


    rogue_alchemist still has not

    So, RA doesn't always show up Day 1 which can be concerning but I don't think my vote is best used there. At this point there's been enough talking that I'd rather a lych that we'd get more info from, rather than someone afk.

    BatCatHat posts in general

    A couple posts that basically say I hope I'm not looking suspicious (but what if saying that was suspicous. At least joins the Jeen Leen wagon near the end. Curious if you have opinions on the other wagons (mostly totadile and Elenna at this point).

    Murska v Totadile

    A post addressing Totadile (and the accusation against Jeen) before a convo about WIFOM. My gut instinct is that Jeen's plan comes from a town perspective but I'll talk more about that later.

    Jeen Leen
    Spoiler: Long quotes
    Show





    So, I understand his vote against totadile and it doesn't feel like OMGUS. But he spends a lot of time discussing his plan and continues on about how bad it can be: how it's not perfect, why he might look wolfish, and then how the plan could be helpful to the wolves in a situation.

    The comments of how he'd be suspicious if myself or Murska flips wolf seems... really weird to me. I can't put my finger on exactly how but it feels like a weird bit to add in.

    Spoiler: More quotes
    Show






    The flipping back and forth between the two isn't great, especially with the lampshading that he was uncomfortable with how people reacted to his vote on Elenna. Still, my gut says again that a wolf wouldn't put that in their post.

    tl;dr Feels weird, but feels townie weird to me.


    Elenna

    Elenna further presses on why the plan wouldn't be great, but still leaves her vote on RA. Gives a couple townreads and then throws some suspicion on to totadile. Later explains:



    Seems to only leave the RA wagon once her own was large enough to be a problem. Could come from a townie of course, but I again am not a fan of an RA wagon now so I wish she (and gac, for that matter) had moved her vote earlier.

    Avatar Vecna

    Made some more posts, but not enough for me to judge town or wolf. Looking to see a read list soon.

    Jeen and gac

    They had a back and forth, with Jeen gac's reads as possibly wolfy but also saying he had an overall town read on gac. Don't really have much more to say on this back and forth at the moment but I'm keeping it in mind.




    Gonna do another (shorter) post in a bit (with a vote change) but want to get this in before I'm ninja'd too much.



    I haven't posted for... over 24 hours, longer than I thought. Real life reason was sleep, then work, then family but that's sort of beside the point. Vote count below.




    Vote Count:
    totadileplayz (4): BookWombat, Murska, Elenna, JeenLeen
    AvatarVecna (1): CaoimhinTheCape
    JeenLeen (2): totadileplayz, BatCatHat
    Gac3 (1): AvatarVecna
    Elenna (2): Apogee1, Valmark
    rogue_alchemist (1): Gac3

    Not Voting: rogue_alchemist

    - - - Updated - - -

    At this point, I'm focusing on Elenna and Totodile. Jeen's wagon is the same size as Elenna, but I've talked a lot about Jeen so far and I don't want to lynch him today.

    Elenna

    Spoiler
    Show




    The random vote and the wording doesn't mean much to me either way, but if she's a wolf, it could be someone from the wolf team trying to make it harder for Town to guess their roles even after the group said in recruitment that Dark Necrofear probably wouldn't fit well.




    (Side note: took out parts about the RNG wording and the Day length)

    A defense of Jeen then keeping a vote on RA for pressure. I'm of the opinion that that pressure vote was not helping, but that's not necessarily strong evidence against.

    Talks about Jeen's plan and then about networking. First instinct was that it was good to bring up that part of the game but after rereading it I feel vibes of "we won't be able to trust networking anyway" and I don't like the vague discouragement there.




    Townread on Murska and Apogee, shade thrown on totadile. I like that we have some idea of her opinion of other players, even if it doesn't tell me much about her being town/wolf.



    Could be exactly what she says in her post, but could be holding back from putting a more helpful vote down. There's the chance that both are wolves and she was trying to stay off of a buddy while distancing.



    Moves to totadile only after her wagon has 3 people on it. There's some lampshade hanging with the "I knew someone would think that" statement, so that doesn't really do much for me.

    Gives more reads on BW (null) and reinforces a town read on Apogee. Helpful info but doesn't tell me much about her alignment (at the moment).



    Totodile

    Spoiler
    Show




    Random vote, not much of anything here.



    Page 1 vote change to Jeen, which has stuck. First read through was that a vote against Jeen (talkative person I have a townread on) was sketchy but now that we've thought about the plan a bit more (and there's more holes in it than I would like) I understand totadile's vote. I don't like the public speculation on Jeen's role, so points against there.



    Mostly discussion on gameplay and strategy rather than anything particularly relevant to the case against JeenLeen. Wish there was more to go on but that's the last post.




    So, as much as we've talked about both options these very much feel like Day 1 wagons to me (nothing enough to make me completely sure of either). Of the two, I'm going to vote Elenna. Overall Elenna's posts have felt a little more wolfish on a gut level to me (although, totadile hasn't really been around lately to give me any sort of gut feel) and I would like to see competing wagons so we'll push the two closer.





    Vote Count:
    totadileplayz (4): BookWombat, Murska, Elenna, JeenLeen
    JeenLeen (2): totadileplayz, BatCatHat
    Gac3 (1): AvatarVecna
    Elenna (3): Apogee1, Valmark, CaoimhinTheCape
    rogue_alchemist (1): Gac3

    Not Voting: rogue_alchemist
    Hoo boy that's a big post. It's a lot of analysis, and while none of it particularly strikes me as something town or wolf would say, there's enough here that this post will probably be useful as evidence one way or the other two days from now, so that's nice.


    Slight wolf lean. There's some bad stuff, but it gets explained-ish. There's some analysis, but it's middle-of-the-road. I'm not willing to lynch Cao today, but I want to keep seeing effort, see if he slips up or proves himself trustworthy.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-05-08 at 01:02 AM.


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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Spoiler: Elenna ISO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily rule out Dark Necrofear, since Xi was debating it originally, adding one more player could have pushed her into adding it. But yeah, not really something we can know much about till they die.

    rogue_alchemist, any thoughts? (RNG vote)
    On the one hand, I could see a wolf trying to spread paranoia about what wolf roles are in the game even though I think we're all suspecting the same powers for the wolf team. On the other hand, I could easily see an experienced townie reminding town not to assume they know wolf team's make-up.

    On the other other hand, I don't see much benefit to wolf team for convincing town that Dark Necrofear specifically is in-play; if the conversion was a 1/game power they could use, that would spread paranoia, but we know that we only have to worry about a conversion after we see them die, so if there's no DN, there's no real benefit to wolf team for pretending there's one.

    The inserted RNG thing seems to be pinging people and I can kinda see what they mean but you gotta admit that's really weak "evidence".

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    I'm pretty sure I've seen bad D1 plans significantly more often from town than from wolves. All else aside, wolves have more incentive to keep their heads down. Plus what Murska said about how wolves are likely to think it through more.

    Re: my first post, I kinda see what people are getting at, in that it probably is an unusual way for me to phrase that? I didn't feel like making another RNGesus joke, couldn't think of a more graceful way to insert the information "this is a random vote", and I was in a bit of a hurry, so I just stuck it in brackets.

    Keeping my vote on rouge_alchemist for now as pressure for him to vote/post.


    I'm still very confused by what your plan is here. The "finding the true seer" part won't work if they're vortexed away from you. And I'm not quite sure how you plan to catch Diabound, unless your plan is that everyone Dark Magician Girl saw should publically claim? Which seems sketchy. But how else would Dark Magician Girl distinguish between Diabound and amyone else?

    Also I feel like the general issue with a large towncore in this game will be that the 2 QT role means that when enough players are involved, information will have to be passed around like a game of Telephone, so if a wolf gets in it would be easy for them to sabotage plans or information gathering. Which is of course part of the reason for that rule.
    So making a network with "probably only one wolf" doesn't seem that great...

    - - - Updated - - -


    24 hour day phases seem pretty short - your game of course, I just like 48 hour day 24 hour night better.
    Townie points. I feel like there should definitely be more discussion about how to use the QTs for networking despite the limitations, it always skews the game more fun and tends to lead to town victory just as a result of more conversation to analyze. Elenna gets townie points for bringing it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Slight townread for trying to get town out of "single random vote" territory? Although Murska is more than good enough of a player to do that as a wolf.




    I like Apogee looking for wolfreads (even if he's wrong about me ) and pointing out the vortexer issue.


    Hmm I don't think Jeen is right about wolf!totadile trying to sabotage their plan (mostly because I still don't think Jeen's plan would work, so no sabotage needed), but I will agree that public speculation on townie roles doesn't look good.
    The parts on Murska and totadile feel like a bit of waffle-wolf to me. Hrm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    I'm fine with a totadile lynch, but there's enough people on them, for now I'm thinking I'll stay on rogue for a competing wagon.
    I feel this post. I'd rather lynch a wolf than a townie, but I'd rather lynch an inactive townie than an active one. If one doesn't think they can catch a wolf with the lynch, better to lynch the inactive than let them autolynch and lose you a day down the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Yeah, maybe, but I really didn't have any other suspicions besides totadile, so given that I'd rather lynch someone who seems like they're not going to contribute.





    See, I kinda figured someone would say "Elenna is a wolf trying to protect totadile". But at the same time, if I hadn't made that post, I was worried people would say "Elenna is throwing shade on totadile but not actually voting them, obvious distancing." So I figured I was better off trying to explain my thoughts.

    Anyways, there's other non-totadile wagons right now, and I'd rather totadileplayz get lynched as opposed to me or Jeen, so I'll move my vote.

    By the way, why is my critiquing your plan possibly wolfy, but BW critiquing it is towny?

    Actually I think BW's comment about Tea not being the baner is NAI. It's a pretty obvious flaw, and one the wolves can't really take advantage of easily. If I were a wolf and I saw that you mistook Tea for the baner, I'd expect other people to notice it too, so I'd probably post about it to try to get town points.
    For comparison, Apogee mentioning the vortexer feels towny to me, because that's a somewhat less obvious issue and it's also something that the wolves might hope to quietly use to mess up your plan. So it's something that might actually hurt the wolf side to point out, unlike the thing with Tea.
    Probably the beefiest Elenna post, and makes sense that it comes out once her head was on the chopping block. At the same time, it's a whole lotta words, but they're not really giving great insight. It's mostly saying obvious stuff and repeating what others have already said. There's no individual piece that couldn't come from a townie or a wolf, but taken as a whole it feels like trying to look active. There's a call-out on JeenLeen buried in this post which makes a good point, but Elenna isn't voting JL because the vote is about survival, not suspicion.


    Slight wolf lean. There's some stuff here I really like, but there's some stuff here that's really making me nervous, particularly that last post. idk why two people jumped on that wagon before the last post existed, but I'm at least considering a vote here. I'm staying my hand until I ISO everybody though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Spoiler: totadileplayz ISO
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    Quote Originally Posted by totadileplayz View Post
    I'll vote Batcathat for now. Not likely we'll figure out much for right now.
    NAI. Not explicitly random but basically random. I'm not sure how to feel about them knocking D1 analysis, especially given how eventful D1s have been of late.

    Quote Originally Posted by totadileplayz View Post
    Ok I have to be honest. I actually fail to see how in any mafia set up adding a bunch of heat to a specific townie can help when a possible mafia transporter means that heat could be redirected anywhere. Or he could be the killer which means all card effects are nulled and simply say the lover must have targeted him.

    So then cross-checking we try to look at the townie roles and see what ones makes it a logical play.
    the only logical result would be Mai Verbatim the only one that relies on them being targeted.

    The question becomes is the all too real possibility that he's simply trying to deny as many players abilities as possible true or is it a bad mai verbatim play? So far this is the most wolfy play someone's done as far as I can see, and it's at least better then random voting. I mean two wolf's could use it or a single possible town role.

    Jeenleen
    Totadile is the first to bring up the vortexer as a possibility, as a reason that the plan might not be great and tbh I'm kinda in agreement. I wouldn't necessarily expect town to just go along with it, but I agree with the sentiment that one person trying to direct all of town's early-game power usage is risky behavior. It's a bad plan, and I don't think pointing out that it's a bad plan is wolfy.

    Quote Originally Posted by totadileplayz View Post
    I tend to think on what I'd do, since it helps avoid some of my own psychological problems and yes I seriously believe I would do that as a wolf. In the most serious means becoming the hub for the town gives you a very powerful role, and this play can do that. As a wolf a relatively low chance of death, for a high chance for an effectively won game is a solid play. And the serious notion that wolves should be quiet and reserved is a misnomer, wolves want to direct the town to kill other town. This play if successful as a wolf would do that, and there's not much chance once we become enscorcelled in it that we'd be able to escape it.
    The last sentence seems weirdly worded to me, but it's not really alignment-indicative weird, just..."ensorcelled", really?

    The explanation is just more of the same. At least as of now, I don't think putting forward a bad plan is a mark against JeenLeen necessarily, but I can definitely understand why tot seems to think otherwise.


    Null read. Honestly, there's not much here to analyze, and what is here is more or less what anybody could do in reaction to the plan as it's been laid out. If there's to be a tot lynch, I'd expect it to be more for gathering information on others rather than people finding tot suspicious.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-05-08 at 02:14 AM.


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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Were the tie rules stated anywhere?

    Debating claiming, since I'm going to bed within 15 min and I won't be awake for EOD. Not sure how helpful it'll really be since wolves get a list of unused town roles, but if there's a high chance of my being lynched I'd rather give people that information first.

    - - - Updated - - -

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Spoiler: JeenLeen ISO
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Jeen draws his cards, places four spell-traps face-down, and leans back with quiet confidence.
    Internally, he suppresses the panicked thoughts of Please no Heavy Storm.

    ---

    From the recruitment thread, we probably know Dark Necrofear is not in play. I say "probably" because perhaps a new player joining near the end might have alleviated Xi's concern about Dark Necrofear being too strong without a very large Town... but I kinda doubt one player would have made that big a difference for changing that decision.

    But, as a new player joined near the end, I reckon Xihirli did go with three wolves instead of two.
    So we can presume that Zorc, Bakura, and Diabound are in play. Even if Xi decided near the end to do two wolves for some reason, we're probably best off assuming those three are in play and plan for the worst-case scenarios / interpreting what powers seem to be doing what.
    Even if I'm wrong and Xi did put Necrofear in play... Necrofear is basically a vanilla wolf until she dies. Basically a super-beast (recruits a townie instead of killing one). So she wouldn't be having any active powers that we could interpret anyhow.

    ---

    @Xihirli: For powers that can see Roles (Bakura/Ishtar), if they targeted Ishtar or Marik, would they learn the person's actual role (and thus if fool or seer) or get the cover identity of the true seer (and thus be as ignorant as the fool/seer until both flip)?

    ---

    As for who to randomly poke D1... well let's see if one of my Trap cards gets Apogee1.
    Right out the gate with some mechanical thoughts and questions. I'm jiving with most of it. I can maybe see the focus on what wolves are in the game and the confidence about those three hinting at JL having inside info, except I frankly feel that's a kinda obvious conclusion and I suspect everybody else was thinking the same thing before the thread was made. Townie points.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I had thought up a tricky gambit that relied on a fake-claim, but I found a better one that should work without me lying.

    I think I found a way to either get a strong town network, relatively trusted, as of Day 2, perhaps with a verified seer. And/or I'll catch a wolf.
    Blue Eyes, if you exist, please do not target me.
    I reckon Tea exists since she is the baner. Please target me. Part of this plan works even if I die, but it'd be more fruitful if I'm alive.
    Seer(s), please target me. If both Marik and Ishtar are in play, and you both target me, unless by very bad odds Marik gets RNGed my Role, we'll know the real seer. It'll be a bummer for neither of you to get a wolf tonight, but at least you'll know your results are valid/invalid for future nights.
    Dark Magician Girl, not sure if it'd help or not for you to target me, but you might serve as a backup if I die. And maybe you'll catch Zorc by process of elimination.

    If I'm alive D2, I probably will not claim my Role. I might have said enough to give it away -- trying not to, but not sure -- but I don't want to make it too easy for the wolves to fake being a seer. Or at least I want them to waste Bakura's scry on me instead of someone else, if they're gonna learn it.
    But I will claim if one of the seers says what result they got on me, to verify it and their powers. Or, well, if they're the fool, I may just say they're the fool.

    Want to put this out here early in the Day. There's no votes on me currently, but I don't want it to sound like self-defense if a wagon does move onto me.
    I'd spell out my plan more, but I think there's both good and bad reasons for wolf/wolves to target me, and I don't want to make it easy for them to guess whether I want them to or not.
    If JL is still alive D2, I'd like to here about the initial fake-claim plan, partially for my own amusement but also to get some insight into JL's thought process at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Is it "not particularly random" in that it is targeting someone with a vote already to apply pressure and try to get information/conversation going, or is it that you have a reason to target Cao in particular?

    I'd say how I feel about the former or the latter, but I don't want that to influence your answer.
    NAI. Easy for a wolf to call out the first wagon formed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I want to reread totaldileplayz' accusation against me before I comment on it and consider moving my vote. But I agree in general with those defending me that this seems a horrible ploy for a wolf to do, especially early D1. But, yeah, give me some time to reread and think.

    I agree with whoever wrote that Elenna's first post sounded a bit off in some way. It kinda reminded me of how she's posted when wolf in the past.



    That's fair. Makes sense to start a wagon on someone you know is around to respond to it.







    I have screwed myself up rather significantly, especially since (if I understand it right) the Yugi-bane does nothing N1, and I reckon the strongest bet for the Lovers is to protect each other.
    However, my plan perhaps still has merit. If I die, Dark Magician Girl might be able to help verify a towncore (or at least, of these X people, probably only 1 is a wolf) and we can try to investigate them more fully. And if the seer(s) targeted me, they'd likely know which one of them is fool and which true seer (again, barring really bad RNG result for Marik), since my Role would become public.

    If Diabound and Dark Magician Girl both target me, and I live, we should be able to lynch Diabound D2.
    Honestly, I was counting on Diabound vortexing me to redirect Tea's bane to one of the wolves... but that isn't what Tea does, so... well, that is bad for me and is a disincentive for the wolves to do what I want. (Or I am misdirecting them by this paragraph? )

    Though if I'm the N1 kill, I don't think it's terrible for Town. It probably means both Diabound and Zorc target me, which greatly limits how much they can screw up other townies.
    If I survive, it'll work awesome. If the wolves kill me... my power is kinda awesome in some niche scenarios, but they seem rather niche and unlikely to materialize well. So me being dead ain't terrible.
    *takes notes on what role JL might be*

    A good bit of thoughts here, mostly mechanical stuff though. But then, it's still early-game, there's not much conversation to analyze. Of course, I think there's still not enough conversation to analyze even now, but that's neither here nor there.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Had time to read and respond. Here's the rest of my answer.

    I'll be up-front that I'm aware this totally can look like a wolf defending himself, but folk have asked for my response, and I find this a fun thing to do between some annoying projects at work.

    Also, I'll start off with moving my vote to totaldileplayz.
    Nothing definite, but he might be a wolf trying to get me lynched before my plan has to be dealt with. (Even if it's flawed, it'd be annoying for the wolves to have to deal with.)
    Also don't like how he speculated on my Role publicly. Like he's doing the wolves thinking for them. I'd like to think the Town (even if they strongly suspect my Role) wouldn't share their thoughts until D2 lest it influence wolf actions N1.
    I am not confirming or denying his speculation. Just the fact he made some is what seems iffy. Also, if I were any of you, I'd be considering the fact that JeenLeen might be lying about what his plan really is and what Role he's hinting he has. I have done that as Town before. But I'm honest this time. :P

    The "maybe he is Town" thoughts are that 1) accusing me like that is risky for a wolf, 2) nothing sounds dishonest in his post. Still, a good wolf can sound honest.



    From the recruitment thread, I got confirmation that the N1 Yugi bane doesn't work. But I thought Tea was the baner and that I'd be relatively safe (or the wolves would at least guess Tea might bane me, so they'd go for someone else)

    If you think I lied about really believing Tea is the baner: though I can see a wolf lying about that belief, on one hand, wolf!me would have extensively double-checked all the logic holes and bounced this off the team before posting. My voting history in past games shows that I find a misread of the rules rather suspicious (or at least suspicious enough D1 to earn a vote), and I don't think I would do it purposefully.
    I get you don't necessarily trust this, as I could be a wolf defending myself... but, well, anyway, posting it anyway.



    Mark against me: the last game taught how, in a small game, the wolves don't need to look very towny for long. I could see a ploy like this in a very small game.
    But this isn't a very small game (for our forum's standards).

    The only reason I can really see for wolf!me to do this ploy early D1 is a half-hearted attempt to defend wolf!Cao (who got 2 votes), in hopes this somehow moves votes off them. It would go with me questioning Murksha's motivations.
    But as I don't defend Cao or accuse anyone else in any way via this ploy.

    So, yeah, I get your point that it could be a wolf ploy D1 to gain leadership, but I also don't think it's a strong one.
    Well, here's one case where it would almost get the wolves a win, if Bakura knows certain Roles don't exist. It would be very fun to spell this thought out and have it analyzed, but I don't want to spell it out lest I give the wolves ideas.
    I thought of it because it's a way they could really screw the Town over via my ploy. But it requires several low-probability events to all be happening. (Xi basically said the Roles aren't randomly chosen to be in the game or not, and implied that standard Roles have a more likely chance of being present than non-standard, though not guaranteed.) If I were a wolf, I reckon I could use it do the screwing.

    Cao, if you flip wolf later and I get killed because of D1... well, kudos to you wolves
    Ditto to Murksha. Your defense of me is basically my defense in short. If you flip wolf and that gets me killed, good move looking rational towny while setting me up to look like a scumbuddy. (I've heard the legends of you, but like AV I'm inclined to do the "do not lynch new players D1" even with seasoned players who are returning from a long hiatus. Just had a terrifying thought that we might now have 3 nigh-impossible folk to read: AvatarVecna, Xihirli, and Murska.)
    Some quotes of Murska's defense:





    My General Feel of the Other Players

    I noted how totaldileplayz feels a bit wolfy to me and thus I've moved my vote.
    Some stuff folk wrote about Cao looking "wolf trying to deflect heat" has some merit. Not enough in isolation to make me move my vote to him, but I agree it has merit and might warrant some investigation.
    Also, as I already noted, Elenna's post sounded a touch off to me, but, again, nothing substantial there. (I almost moved my vote to her after she posted, but didn't want to get into "you sound vaguely like you did as a wolf several games ago" territory.)

    I have a feeling of a general "nobody has said anything super-Town thus far". Everything sounds neutral at best. Some solid commentary, but nothing a wolf wouldn't do.
    Actually, that's incorrect: towncred to Book Wombat for pointing out about Tea. I can see the wolves wanting misinformation to perpetuate. Yeah, it would come out eventually, but no reason for a wolf to point it out until players are invested in a bad idea.

    Not 100% sure of my read about Apogee asking about Diabound's influence. It does sound legit towny to get the thought out there, lest we go along with a bad plan easily foiled. And he didn't seem to be pressing for details (though I gave them), just making sure it was considered.
    On the other hand, a wolf could also ask that and look towny (after all, I said it looks towny), while hoping I would give more details than I should and to help decipher if they should vortex me.
    Yet from my hand: it gave me a good chance to spread some WIFOM to the wolves, so that was fun.

    Batcathat would look suspicious, but they were Town last game and talked similar to how talking this game. But both Batcathat and totaldileplayz are new enough to the forum games that I don't really trust my read of them yet. (I will admit that totaldileplayz's posting style rubs me as 'wolf', even when they are town, so that bias might be impacting my read of them.)

    That AV posted about hypocrisy (or lack thereof) by not-voting Murska... kinda a Towny comment in general, as a wolf posting it might draw undue attention to themselves (as AV kinda did from Valmark.) But then again, this is AV, and that's a subtle WIFOM I could see wolf!AV doing. So neutral read from what would otherwise be a Towny read from most players.
    I've underlined the parts I find worth commenting on - it's a big post and it's half past 2am, cut me some slack.

    1: I never like seeing anything along the lines of "I know this looks wolfy but". It's too easy as a TWTBW and it feels weird for a townie to say.

    2: More of the same.

    3: The way the post is set-up mostly flows normal. This one feels odd, though: the sentence makes sense as part of the paragraph a line above it, it feels like an unfinished thought. Like, the whole paragraph looks like this to me:

    If X occurred, then Y logically follows.
    X did not occur.
    ...instead of...

    If X occurred, then Y logically follows. Since X did not occur, then Y doesn't track.
    It's not technically a wrong way to write it but it feels weird. It being one line down instead of 2 would feel weirder too, except that happens a lot in this post so it's not necessarily evidence of a wolf-edit.

    4: I've seen more than a few things that I felt were more townie moves than scum by a decent margin, I think it's weird you think it's mostly been neutral?

    Overall, slight wolf lean on this post. It's just really rubbing me the wrong way.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    DMG = Dark Magician Girl. I'm tired of writing that out.

    I don't want to answer this too fully -- I wrote up a lot of IF-THEN scenarios then deleted them -- but I think there's still merit. How much, or how many, players should claim should depend on a few factors, and might change based on info-reveals from the D1 lynch and N1 kill. Remember Bakura knows some safe fake-claims, but they aren't necessarily ones with easy powers to fake.

    Really, it seems that, if DMG is in play, we get useful info as long as DMG and the seers target me. Me being killed or the targeting being vortexed away limits/delays some information, but it's still useful (and keeps the wolves from screwing up other folk).
    If DMG is not in play, plan is still useful, but me dying makes the info-sharing more difficult. At the least, the fool and seer should know what Role they really are if I die. (Note that, for me to die, I need to NOT be vortexed, since otherwise Zorc's kill would be redirected. Right?)

    Though to make sure I'm not misunderstanding another power interaction:
    With how the vortexer works...
    If, for example, DMG, Ishtar, Marik, and Diabound target me to redirect to Elenna, then DMG, Ishtar, and Marik will target Elenna.
    Diabound also shows up as targeting Elenna, since they target two players.
    DMG sees that 3 players targeted Elenna. Presumably, she can guess that they are Ishtar, Marik, and Diabound.
    Does that fit folks' interpretation of the power? Xihirli, are you willing to confirm if that would be correct (assuming no other players interfere with targeting)?
    ...slight townie points. This feels less like a wolf trying to sell town on a bad plan and more a townie trying to salvage a bad plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    If Diabound and Zorc target me and Elenna as above, would I die or Elenna die?

    - - - Updated - - -

    This reminds me of the timing rules for a few things. Bottomless Trap Hole had some funky timing issues, especially with Exiled Force priority and things like the Monarchs' activating when summoned.
    NAI, easy question anybody could ask, and I've already given JL credit for trying to salvage the plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Note sure if I even want Xi to answer this publicly, but DMG (if she's there) should think about if their power says "JeenLeen was targeted by <name>, <name>..." or "<name>, <name> targeted your target."
    E.g., check if your power tells you who you ended up targeting or not. I assume it would, and so you'd know if you're redirected, but, well... useful to think on.



    Blasphemy!
    Though, yeah, that probably simplifies things a ton.
    Slight townie points. I appreciate JL realizing that some questions don't need to be answered publicly.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    In a kind of annoying way, all of these three statements ping a little wolfy to me. In the sense of a townie could say them, but it also sounds a bit here's my read on each of those "if they were a wolf"...

    For Elenna, sounds like how a wolf wanting to protect wolf!totaldileplayz would post, without wanting to stretch out their neck too far. Or possibly prep for moving off wolf!rogue_alchemist if that wagon gets strong.
    Also, like some of her earlier posts, it just feels a tad off to me.
    And those where she was giving legitimate critique and questions about my plan could be a wolf feeling out how much I'm worth dealing with or not.

    Book_Wombat could be trying to protect wolf!rogue_alchemist by a slight defense that would make others less likely to vote them, but not draw a lot of attention.
    But I still lean town given pointing out the flaws in my plan.

    gac3... well, no changing vote, FoS on rogue_alchemist. Any of those statements could be distancing from a scumbuddy. However, I get a fairly Town read from him. While a wolf!gac3 might be wanting to talk some and give commentary to gain towncred, something about the feel of that post doesn't seem to have the carefulness of a wolf deceptively attempting that.

    I didn't quote Murska in this post, but they've also said some things that could be subtle distancing. The only I'm pretty sure is that, if totaldile flips wolf, Murska is probably town. (I say 'probably' because I'm thinking of them on the same level as I think of Xihirli and AV.) I don't see a wolf putting a third vote on a scumbuddy, especially D1.


    ...the D1 paranoia is strong this game. Fitting for something of Xi's creation.

    AV has sometimes done a list of most-to-least wolfy in feel. Here's my list.
    Strong wolf: totaldileplayz, Elenna
    Slight wolf: Cao
    Neutral: everyone else
    Slight town: gac3, Book Wombat
    Strong town; JeenLeen (not just that I know I'm Town since I'm myself, but I think my ploy establishes that well. Though I understand others feel otherwise.)
    On the one hand, seeing wolves everywhere is a townie sign. And JL's explanations for why they're pinging his scumdar track with me.

    On the other hand, that underlined bit in there? That's showing where one sentence got cut off and come back to later. Weak scumlean for what honestly looks like a possible wolf edit. It'd be a stronger lean if the way the sentence was heading would lead to saying the wrong thing maybe, but it just seems like a mistake more than anything, and one that tends to plague scum slightly more than townies.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Thanks for pointing that out. And sorry for misunderstanding.
    NAI.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Elenna.

    Not that I trust totaldileplayz, but I know he's felt very wolfy to me before when he's been Town, and his critique of me has merits. I had stayed on totaldile because, if he flipped wolf, that sorta proves Murksa as Town; figured the death might give more info than Elenna's.

    However, there's been a couple times when Elenna has pinged me as wolf, I don't vote her, and she flips wolf. And now, if Elenna flips wolf, good reason to trust Valmark. So Elenna it is.

    I'll try to get online later tonight (Day ends around early morning, my time zone, if I understand it right), in case there's relevant movements, claims, and/or counterclaims... but I might not be online until Saturday night.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Elenna kinda justified herself, at least in part, and now I feel totaldile's flip might yield at least as much info as her own... and neither has bothered to claim...
    Back to totaldileplayz.

    Side note: that Cao has been quiet makes me suspect he might be a wolf avoiding attention. But, really, it's not unlikely the wolves are just laughing and happy with whichever wagon goes through. But I admit there's plenty of potential real life reasons for the quiet, and this thought mainly came from wanting to see a current vote count like he does.



    Perhaps just my indecisiveness about whether to vote totaldile or Elenna?
    Strange as it is to say it, I feel uncomfortable with the response to me switching my vote, so that's an irrational part of switching it back. But I am rather undecided. If I were Seto, I'd probably target whichever one of them didn't get lynched today.

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    AV, I tend to read "neat" in statements like that as "likely caused, or participated in, by the wolves".
    After you do ISOs, I'd be curious if you really feel that way. I'd think it way too risky to risk piling up on Elenna late Day to save a scumbuddy.

    I saw it more as tensions and suspicions reaching a bit of a tipping point, then Valmark voted her and I followed.
    1) While I can see what you're saying about tot flipping scum making Murska look good, I'll also say that I'll only be convinced Murska is town when the narrator tells me so via pure mechanical text.

    2) The point made about Cao being quiet actually reminded me that totadile has been pretty quiet. Not just overall (well, their posting speed is about on par with Stranger Things, but much slower than in Upick), but I don't think they've posted in over 24 hours?

    3) I've previously made my case for how vigilante shots are more often than not a detriment for town outside of the sole fact that they give town slightly more control over who's dead than they'd otherwise have. I'd be more comfortable if the vig shot was decided by town. So, I kinda agree with the idea that, if Kaiba is present and willing to take a shot, they should shoot the wagon that doesn't die today. However, I'd also like to tack on a caveat: if the person who dies today flips scum, Kaiba shouldn't shoot the other wagon, they were the counterwagon to a wolf.


    Urgh. There's a good bit of good and a good bit of bad here. Overall, null, but leaning a bit more towards town because there's a lot of effort going in and it just generally feels earnest.

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    Spoiler: gac3 ISO
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    If the list earlier is accurate at that point in time, it looks like Rogue Alchemist is the only one not voting yet. So let's get you moving!

    Also, hi BatCatHat! How long have you been playing these?


    Edit: Ninja'd. It still looks to be true based on the new list.
    NAI.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Wait... I just went to the first post to find the detail, but are we aware of how long a day/night phase is?
    Good question. Slight townie points.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    So, I don't plan to move my vote until we get a check in or somebody actually looks suspicious.

    Thoughts so far (written as I read through. If it is disjointed more than summarized, that is why):

    Elenna will probably ping on me until I get used to them being town. No idea what they are but they ping wolf for me. But that's more a "this is how they talk when they are a wolf!" but they are a wolf really really often so it might just be "this is how they talk!" *Null read*

    Totadileplayz is new for me. Maybe not new because I've been gone a while. That might be useful to know. If they are new, then their comment about not likely to figure much out might be newbie talk. Otherwise, it feels more like wolf covering themselves thinking.

    Murska fits the same "I'm not sure how new they are" vein. But after only four hours from the opening vote and like half the people having checked in, they are already really eager to try to get some wagons started. This stands out. Anyone played with them enough that they know if this is normal for them? Its not necessarily positive or negative unless its different than normal. Just felt fast for me. They also seemed quick to jump on Jeenleen being good. I also love the defense of "a wolf would be to smart to make this play" argument they made because that is exactly how I would justify a wolf strategy if I was a wolf. Again, someone who has played with them, feel free to weigh in but for now I'm going FOS while I wait for RA to post.

    Jeenleen came up with a whole big plan that involves lots of people targetting them. They said that what they said may have given away their role but I don't really see what that might be. I have my conspiracy theories but I'm leaning towards a few roles I'm guessing.

    BatCatHat went for the the "i'm voting you for voting me" it seems. Don't know how they play.

    Apogee1 should be noted as having sort of defended Cape some. Only matters if one is revealed as a wolf.
    Murska is most definitely not a new player - very experienced, and very good. I can't really say that Murska pushing for wagons is a scumsign or townsign, though - I've never been good at reading them.

    Most of the rest of this post is...fine. Not necessarily conclusions I agree with, but could see most anybody saying these things. Have seen others make the same points, in fact.

    Biggest issue I have with this post: Gac has posted after everything that's gone down, and still hasn't seen anything suspicious enough to warrant voting somebody besides RA. And I mean...I get it, I dislike inactives too. But we're getting close to EoD at this point, and that wagon clearly isn't happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Not to be not picky Keen, bit my FOS is on Murska, my vote is on RA.

    Edit: For people who think mistakes like that are wolfy, we now have "Tea is Baner" and this one.
    That actually reminds me of a small mistake I noticed while doing my tot ISO, I'll make sure to bring it up once I escape the spoiler.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Not a big deal. Just want to make it clear. I'm voting for RA because I'd rather play (win or lose) when everyone is playing than have a no show. Waiting for more info but definitely suspicious of Murska right now.
    "I suspect Murska is a wolf" is one of the most generic NAI statements a person could make. I still don't feel good about the vote lingering on RA.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Night add more detail later. Need to get myself a new vote tally. Something feels off about Jeen though. Haven't placed it yet.

    - - - Updated - - -




    This this was i feel like I'm not following the Elena wagon but I'll look back over it.
    There's not very much here, even if we count vague musings on who gac suspects.


    Null, but probably slight wolf lean. I initially expected that gac just wouldn't have many posts, but turns out they've got solid activity despite not saying very much at all. Makes me worry they're talking to seem busy and are keeping from being noticed due to all the drama.

    EDIT: I said I'd come back to the mistake I noticed, and then I forgot. Argh!

    Okay so, the way I do ISOs is Ctrl+F for a person's name and search through. Well I did that for totadile and found that in a few of Cao's vote counts, they'd counted votes for Cao in two separate lines:

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Vote Count:
    Apogee1 (1): JeenLeen
    rogue_alchemist (1): Elenna
    totadileplayz (1): BookWombat
    AvatarVecna (1): CaoimhinTheCape
    JeenLeen (1): totadileplayz
    CaoimhinTheCape (2): Valmark, Murska
    Gac3 (1): AvatarVecna
    totadileplayz (1): BatCatHat
    Elenna (1): Apogee1

    Not Voting: rogue_alchemist, Gac3
    To quote gac:

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    For people who think mistakes like that are wolfy
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    Spoiler: Book Wombat ISO
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    Aschen—! Oh wait, wrong verse.

    Anyway, time to roll!
    rolls a d12 and gets a 6
    totadileplayz, the dice really do not like you.
    NAI, randvote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    Tea isn't a baner though, they're a necromancer (?).
    NAI, anybody could point that out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    rogue_alchemist is inactive quite often so no surprises there.
    NAI.


    Barely any posts, and barely any actual content. Not that that's surprising...null lean, slightly leaning wolf cuz could be trying to fly under the radar.

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    Spoiler: Valmark ISO
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    *Pretends to have a playable deck but really filled it out with only monster cards of too high a level to summon them without tributes*

    Oh yeah I totally know what I'm doing. Mh mh. BatCatHat, you're the first in order without a vote.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ninja'd. CaoimhinTheCape, then.
    NAI, this is what Valmark does: votes the first person who doesn't have a vote. My bad for forgetting initially.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    I mean, it's true that I refused to make a wagon regardless of the reason.

    What's the hypocrisy?
    Valid question, but NAI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Oh I see, yeah that makes a lot of sense.
    NAI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    This kind of leads down a steep slippery slope that ends into WIFOM- meaning that a wolf could have went 'They'll think a wolf wouldn't have attracted attention like this!' and from there one can continue.

    Or think it's a genuinely good idea, which can be both Town- and Wolf-y.
    This doesn't particualrly feel wolfy or towny to me, which seems to be the pattern with valmark so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Elenna smells a bit to me too. Not like it's something Town wouldn't do (I did it too in previous games) but it's still a convinient place to put herself in, since it makes perfect sense to not push a wagon that is already ahead.

    Not much but it's not like I have anything better on hand.
    This is the most substantial post so far, and there's not even really that much to it. Elenna is being voted for doing something she's no longer doing, which gac is still doing at this point.


    Null read, not sure how to feel about Valmark.

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    Spoiler: Murska ISO
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    Hello all. Been a while.

    Plays down a forest, then Sol Ring, then Golgari Signet. Wait... that's not right. Just plays Hedge Fund and ices up HQ and RnD instead. Let's hope they facecheck into an Akhet.

    Hm. That's enough single votes. Time to pile on some pressure. CaoimhinTheCape for both having a vote already and having already posted. Also for random voting.
    Could've just randvoted and let someone else kick things into gear, but that's not really his style. Looks a lil townie on others, but NAI cuz its Murska.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    In this case it's not a real reason since literally every one of my possible targets had done the same. But yeah, in general, while early votes will be for weak reasons, there's a degree to it. For instance, my vote is early and it's not particularly random.
    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    Both? I mean, I did explain my reasoning when I voted. Given that I want to pressure someone to get the first day going, and so have a limited pool of people to target, I chose to target Cao in particular because they'd already voted (and done so without saying anything that would make me consider them unlikely to be a wolf).
    These are explaining the vote choice in more detail, and given overall behavior I suspect something similar to what I've seen in a previous game but I'll keep that to myself for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    Okay, some initial impressions: JeenLeen is good. The post from totadileplayz reads very iffy to me, like they are just saying something to get words out there without any actual intent.
    I disagree about totadile. Calling out a plan that involves telling half of town to target one person as being risky is something worth saying, worth expanding on with explanations like tot did. I don't necessarily suspect a JL/Murska scumteam, I just think it's weird to see shade in tot's post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    You really think a wolf would make a play like that, this early? I can see a wolf planning a fancy deception beforehand to get out the gate with, but then I'd imagine it would be well thought out. And mostly wolves just want to lay low and say little of any use.
    TWTBW is a thing - looking so suspicious that nobody could possibly believe a wolf would be that sloppy. Of course, that gets into WIFOM thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    You're speaking from the perspective of a proper wolf gambit, but this clearly wasn't that - it was pointed out in very short order that it would never work. I agree that wolves can make gambits and try to steer town, but my assertion is that they, when doing so, spend time and effort creating said gambit and making it believable.
    I don't think JL's proposed plan is necessarily coming from a desire to trick town, but also I don't think that wolf gambits are solely limited to telling town actually good strategies to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    Any WIFOM can be distilled into three levels, of which I generally assume only the first two are in play unless I have drastic evidence otherwise. This is based on sheer experience, both in my own thought processes as a wolf and in observation of others - people just don't go into three-level-deep plots because they expect to be countered by first-level play, where most people are, and because saying something along the lines of 'I would never have done X as a wolf, because of Y' is terrible and borderline suicidal (as opposed to having someone else point it out, which is a gambit and dangerous).

    I'm saying thinking a flawed plan is a genuinely good idea is more towny than wolfy, because a wolf would, on average, spend more time thinking it over as they have to both consider it from the perspective of their town cover role and from their actual perspective as a wolf.
    This post feels weird but I can't put my finger on why. Like...a wolf can pretend to like a flawed plan put forth by a townie. Keeping quiet and letting town screw themselves with bad plans is an easy play for wolves. And from an outside perspective, the townie who thinks well of the plan and the wolf who pretends to think well of it both look the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    Well, I want to see larger vote movement to get discussion and actual lynch pressure around, and I did mention that totaldileplayz felt slightly off, so I'll join my first townread on this wagon. This is three votes, fully enough to get someone killed, so if you people want someone else to get killed instead I suggest making an effort.
    Seconded, I'm glad somebody is pushing for real wagons and doing analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    I find it a bit amusing that people are stating they don't want to wagon me day one because I haven't been around for a long time... rather than, you know, because they don't think I'm a wolf.
    The Murska Constant is what it is. I'm pretty sure this whole ISO is being biased by it but I don't care cuz you're a scary player and I can't bring myself to just trust you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Murska View Post
    I think it's pretty pointless having a wagon on an inactive. They're not defending themselves, so there's nothing to learn.
    You can learn from others defending them. RA is frequently inactive, and wolves can benefit from an inactive wolf: they don't do anything to out you or to draw attention, they'll never bus you, and as long as they don't get autolynched they still count towards team totals for determining when wolves "control the lynch". (Of course, that last bit depends on the narrator in a couple ways, but yeah)

    But in general, lynching an inactive is really only something to do when there's not really any better leads, and we've got more than a couple candidates worth voting for.


    Null read. It all looks suspicious to me, and I honestly can't tell if that's because it's actually suspicious or if I'm just psyching myself out.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-05-08 at 03:12 AM.


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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    Batcathat, please strike through old votes. My memory isn't good enough to catch this every time I go back through the votes.
    Ah, sorry, totally slipped my mind. Fixed now and hopefully the shame of it will make me remember in the future (aided by the fact that literally anything I do that's out of the ordinary will be suspicious to someone).

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Read list from towniest to scummiest:

    Apogee1
    JeenLeen
    Valmark
    totadileplayz
    rogue_alchemist
    Book Wombat
    gac3
    Murska
    BatCatHat
    CaoimhinTheCape
    Elenna
    AvatarVecna

    It's telling that even if I were removed from the list, a full half of the players look scummier than the literal inactive.

    Of the three wagons that have an actual chance at getting lynched today, Elenna is the only one I'm scumreading, but also the only one that's claimed, and I really don't like how her wagon popped up real sudden-like. Totadileplayz is a neutral read currently; if they show up again today (and that absence really isn't making them look better), they'll almost certainly switch from JL to Elenna to save their skin (regardless of alignment). But lynching totadile will give us info on the other lynches happening today, given insight into arguments made involving them (even if their involvement was pretty limited). JeenLeen is the towniest read of the three, but even then JL still has a good bit of shady stuff in the ISO, and voting JL puts them in the running properly. The only thing I'm really certain about is that I'd like gac3 and rogue_alchemist to hop on a real wagon and give their reasons for doing so.

    Going with my gut and voting Elenna. I could be talked into either of the other two with a good argument, though, and I'd definitely like to see totadile claim if he wants to be properly in the clear.


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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Well Elena has a claim.not a very fancy claim but it is still one.

    Do we know the tie rules? I know Elena asked, but i haven't seen an answer and will double check the first post again after this.

    For now I'll go with Jeenleen to put them closer to the other wagons, puts them one behind I believe. Will update if I see new developments.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Mmm... I don't think I want to lynch the only claimed (could be false but still) player currently present, especially since claiming also means that a Seer could choose to verify it (...and also a Fool, so it's not such a good verification) but I also don't have anybody else I suspect.

    As such I guess I'll throw a vote on totalediplayz (did I write it correctly?) and hope that Elenna has something to show for it in the morning. Or that somebody else can prove/deny her claim.

    JeenLeen feels towny in the way he writes, I'd rather keep him around.

    @AV what's gac3 doing that Elenna isn't anymore? I went back to check the posts but I couldn't understand what you meant.
    Last edited by Valmark; 2021-05-08 at 08:21 AM.
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Update: I did not find tie rules. So it's either random between the two or the first to reach that, which would be totadileplayz

    - - - Updated - - -

    Update: my update was ninja'd. Now totadileplayz is up by two? And Jeen and Elena are tied for second?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Question: why were people expecting low activity from me? Is that what I normally do?

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Elenna I've kinda been bedridden lately so no I havent been keeping up on this. But I do at least know I'm town, so I'd rather try to hopefully get a wolf today. Even if I dont get the reasoning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh and right I'm the seer. Dont know if I'm a fool or not, bit I am either one of them.
    Last edited by totadileplayz; 2021-05-08 at 08:34 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by totadileplayz View Post
    Elenna I've kinda been bedridden lately so no I havent been keeping up on this. But I do at least know I'm town, so I'd rather try to hopefully get a wolf today. Even if I dont get the reasoning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh and right I'm the seer. Dont know if I'm a fool or not, bit I am either one of them.
    Yeah, can't lynch this. Removed my vote, will see who else I'd rather see lynched.
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Yeah, can't lynch this. Removed my vote, will see who else I'd rather see lynched.
    The highest non claim is Jeen.

    We should also watch the claim. It's easy to claim because there will be two and people aren't likely to counterclaim early on because of that. That said, no reason not to believe it for the time being.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    The highest non claim is Jeen.

    We should also watch the claim. It's easy to claim because there will be two and people aren't likely to counterclaim early on because of that. That said, no reason not to believe it for the time being.
    Yeah, my issue is that while it could be fake or the Fool it could also be the Seer for all I know. I'd rather not risk it.

    I honestly don't want to lynch Jeen and I think leaving Elenna alive for the scriers to be able to confirm her identity and which are they is useful, so... Neither of the two wagons appeal to me.

    (Yes, obviously they could get redirected or not do it, but having the possibility feels like a decent idea).
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Yeah, my issue is that while it could be fake or the Fool it could also be the Seer for all I know. I'd rather not risk it.

    I honestly don't want to lynch Jeen and I think leaving Elenna alive for the scriers to be able to confirm her identity and which are they is useful, so... Neither of the two wagons appeal to me.

    (Yes, obviously they could get redirected or not do it, but having the possibility feels like a decent idea).
    I agree about not lynching totadile. But wanted to keep it in mind for later, if it becomes an issue.

    My concern is that starting a new wagon might be hard. My estimations put the phase at ending in about two hours? Though I could be wrong because I'm a little iffy on when official start was. The first non Xi posts were about two hours from now two days ago if I remember right.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Current count if the last count was accurate:

    totadileplayz (4): BookWombat, Murska, Elenna, JeenLeen
    JeenLeen (2): , BatCatHat gac3
    Elenna (4): Apogee1, totadileplayz, CaoimhinTheCape avatarvecna
    No vote: valmark, rogue_alchemist
    Last edited by gac3; 2021-05-08 at 08:48 AM.

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    I agree about not lynching totadile. But wanted to keep it in mind for later, if it becomes an issue.

    My concern is that starting a new wagon might be hard. My estimations put the phase at ending in about two hours? Though I could be wrong because I'm a little iffy on when official start was. The first non Xi posts were about two hours from now two days ago if I remember right.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Current count if the last count was accurate:

    totadileplayz (4): BookWombat, Murska, Elenna, JeenLeen
    JeenLeen (2): , BatCatHat gac3
    Elenna (4): Apogee1, totadileplayz, CaoimhinTheCape avatarvecna
    No vote: valmark, rogue_alchemist
    We have an hour left not two.

    I'm going to go back to sleep now.

  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by totadileplayz View Post
    We have an hour left not two.

    I'm going to go back to sleep now.
    Then it's even harder to get enough people to lunch anyone other than these three. We could try if people have someone else they suspect.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Hmm. Well, we don't have very solid claims from the top wagons but they are claims. I'd rather not push either of them.

    Perhaps a quick wagon swap back to CaoimhinTheCape - they didn't get traction early in the day, but perhaps they will now that it's late.
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    I say we completely leave our fate in the hands of the trustworthy Murska and continue in complete safety.

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