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  1. - Top - End - #151
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Didn't Xihirli specify vortexer goes first? So yeah Cao targeted you, but everybody else targeted totadile.

    ...wait, doesn't that mean totadile targeted himself?
    My understanding is that anyone targeting totaldile gets redirected to me.
    BUT if someone was targeting me on purpose, they'd still target me.
    So totaldile would have wound up targeting me if he originally targeted himself or originally targeted me.

    Or was Diabound supposed to redirect me-to-him and him-to-me? I thought it was just one-way, so to speak. But I wouldn't be surprised if I misunderstood his power, given that I usually find vortexers confusing and I've shown (this game at least) my understanding of the powers is lacking/incorrect.

  2. - Top - End - #152
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    My understanding is that anyone targeting totaldile gets redirected to me.
    BUT if someone was targeting me on purpose, they'd still target me.
    So totaldile would have wound up targeting me if he originally targeted himself or originally targeted me.

    Or was Diabound supposed to redirect me-to-him and him-to-me? I thought it was just one-way, so to speak. But I wouldn't be surprised if I misunderstood his power, given that I usually find vortexers confusing and I've shown (this game at least) my understanding of the powers is lacking/incorrect.
    Call of the Earthbound: On your Main Phase 2: Target two Players. Any card effect, other than your own, that targets either Player until the next Endphase instead targets the other.
    All actions get flipped. If they targeted me they instead targeted you, and if they targeted you they instead targeted me.

  3. - Top - End - #153
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by totadileplayz View Post
    Umm no that is complete and utter horse****. I did suspect you were a wolf at the time yes, but I had no real reason to think you'd even know if I targeted you or not. Yes I did figure out your role if you were town, but I still thought of you as the best lynch for that day. Since I thought you were a wolf. This basically means that entire thought process is fundamentally flawed. As it does not factor in my known thoughts and opinions of that day. It's bad logic.

    Furthermore the other seer contacted me that night. I had no real reason to suspect they were lying about who they were going to scry. Another flaw in your logic.


    If you weren't practically confirmed I'd find this clearly flawed logic sus. The likely answer is to cause confusion they probably knew that both you and I as the most voted for players and with known traits accompanying both of us would have plenty of actions thrown our way. Thus, they chose to redirect those actions so that they didn't get to the proper target. We still have no idea how me being buffed would have worked, so we can't know how it would have happened, and the wolves wouldn't have either. They might have thought getting rid of a boost from the seer would have worked out well for them.
    All fair and plausible points, but I find it really convenient and improbable that the Fool and Seer got in touch via QT during D1.

    But it could happen. And, if it did, I see y'all doing what you did instead of (purposefully) targeting me.
    And, yeah, Diabound coulda redirected those targeting you to spread confusion. And maybe he thought it'd screw up my plan (and it did screw up the part about getting your feedback and confirming your Role).

    Just it seems just as likely that you're Bakura. And that doesn't require the unlikely event that the two Tombkeepers got in communication D1.

  4. - Top - End - #154
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    [QUOTE=totadileplayz;25040751]
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    If totaldile is maybe the seer, they should try to stop him. If they know my ploy involves him targeting me, why redirect folk targeting him to target me? Unless they thought Seto would kill him, but that seems an odd move.
    I know totaldile suspected I was Mai. It was pretty obvious, probably, from what I wrote D1.
    totaldile basically had to target me, or kill me, lest I find out he didn't target me and accuse him of being a wolf for not playing ball. But Bakura wouldn't want me seeing his power feedback, in case it was different than a true seer's and we could compare notes. And he might've feared the real seer wouldn't play ball and would target totaldile, or Seto would kill totaldile as the runner-up D1, so why not redirect those to me?
    It's a stretch, yeah, but I can't see other good reasons for Diabound to redirect folk targeting totaldile to me. Seems a real waste for a seer claimant, unless it's a fakeclaim you don't want found out.
    /QUOTE]

    Umm no that is complete and utter horse****. I did suspect you were a wolf at the time yes, but I had no real reason to think you'd even know if I targeted you or not. Yes I did figure out your role if you were town, but I still thought of you as the best lynch for that day. Since I thought you were a wolf. This basically means that entire thought process is fundamentally flawed. As it does not factor in my known thoughts and opinions of that day. It's bad logic.

    Furthermore the other seer contacted me that night. I had no real reason to suspect they were lying about who they were going to scry. Another flaw in your logic.


    If you weren't practically confirmed I'd find this clearly flawed logic sus. The likely answer is to cause confusion they probably knew that both you and I as the most voted for players and with known traits accompanying both of us would have plenty of actions thrown our way. Thus, they chose to redirect those actions so that they didn't get to the proper target. We still have no idea how me being buffed would have worked, so we can't know how it would have happened, and the wolves wouldn't have either. They might have thought getting rid of a boost from the seer would have worked out well for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    All fair and plausible points, but I find it really convenient and improbable that the Fool and Seer got in touch via QT during D1.

    But it could happen. And, if it did, I see y'all doing what you did instead of (purposefully) targeting me.
    And, yeah, Diabound coulda redirected those targeting you to spread confusion. And maybe he thought it'd screw up my plan (and it did screw up the part about getting your feedback and confirming your Role).

    Just it seems just as likely that you're Bakura. And that doesn't require the unlikely event that the two Tombkeepers got in communication D1.
    I literally said I was a seer. That's why they contacted me. It's not even unlikely it was a smart play on their part, as it allows us to coordinate with each other.

  5. - Top - End - #155
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by totadileplayz View Post
    I literally said I was a seer. That's why they contacted me. It's not even unlikely it was a smart play on their part, as it allows us to coordinate with each other.
    ...oh, yeah. Didn't think of that as the reason.
    Okay, fair.
    I'd still like the name of the real seer (via QT), though I understand if you want to wait until Cao flips to fully trust me.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Diabound - Vortexer: You are the collection of the rage of the slaughtered village of Kul Elna. Your blood is on the Pharoah’s hands.
    Call of the Earthbound: On your Main Phase 2: Target two Players. Any card effect, other than your own, that targets either Player until the next Endphase instead targets the other.
    So that we're clear on how the vortexer works, this is straight from the opening post. I have no idea if somebody who tried to target JeenLeen but got vortexed to totadile would still be listed in JeenLeen's "people who targeted me" list.


    Currently Recruiting WW/Mafia: Nothing currently. Maybe come start one?

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  7. - Top - End - #157
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    If gac3 and totaldileplayz are being honest, then, between totaldile and me, we can ID the wolves.
    Unfortunately or fortunately, we seem to distrust each other.

    Living players are
    AvatarVecna - ???
    BatCatHat - ???
    Apogee1 - ???
    Cao - DEAD SOON, Diabound
    totaldileplayz -- seer or fool
    JeenLeen - Mai
    gac3 - Dark Magician
    BookWombat - ???
    Valmark - ???

    I basically know one of ??? is Solomon Moto.
    totaldile has the name of two other townies (the other Tombkeeper and whoever Ishtar scried).
    So 2 unknowns left, and those are the two wolves.

    I'm going to bed before I say something stupid, but wanted to throw that possible "we can plan and win this" out there. Folk can discuss and we decide what to do later.

  8. - Top - End - #158
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    So that we're clear on how the vortexer works, this is straight from the opening post. I have no idea if somebody who tried to target JeenLeen but got vortexed to totadile would still be listed in JeenLeen's "people who targeted me" list.
    Perhaps I can rephrase it

    Spoiler
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    Diabound - Vortexer: You are the collection of the rage of the slaughtered village of Kul Elna. Your blood is on the Pharoah’s hands.
    Call of the Earthbound: On your Main Phase 2: Target two Players. Any card effect, other than your own, that targets either Player until the next Endphase instead targets the other.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    If Xi and I agree some more, I will start to doubt my own alignment!
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  9. - Top - End - #159
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    If gac3 and totaldileplayz are being honest, then, between totaldile and me, we can ID the wolves.
    Unfortunately or fortunately, we seem to distrust each other.

    Living players are
    AvatarVecna - ???
    BatCatHat - ???
    Apogee1 - ???
    Cao - DEAD SOON, Diabound
    totaldileplayz -- seer or fool
    JeenLeen - Mai
    gac3 - Dark Magician
    BookWombat - ???
    Valmark - ???

    I basically know one of ??? is Solomon Moto.
    totaldile has the name of two other townies (the other Tombkeeper and whoever Ishtar scried).
    So 2 unknowns left, and those are the two wolves.

    I'm going to bed before I say something stupid, but wanted to throw that possible "we can plan and win this" out there. Folk can discuss and we decide what to do later.
    You know you have quite a habit of saying we've won or are just one move away from it, when often there are variables that are left unaccounted for in those claims.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    My thoughts skimming through the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Hmmm... I had been going to vote Murska. Guess that was wrong.


    @totadileplayz: who did you scry last night? What kind of result did you get?

    To start things off, let's look at who that leaves... Let's see... By my estimations... 3 or 4 wolves... 12 people. So 3/12... 3 confirmed town. Plus me. 3/8... If I choose to believe totadileplayz, which I have no reason not to... 3/7... I will go with BookWombat for now to start things off and now that I have a much more limited list of potential wolves, see if anything new stands out.
    Holy **** I latched onto the "3 or 4 wolves" thing and completely missed the other two weird things here. The first bit looks like the typical thing wolves do where they're like "oh no I was wrong to suspect this person and I know that now that they're dead". It's the apology reflex thing I've mentioned.

    Then we have gac pushing for totadile to publicly share the scry result, instead of (presumably) privately coordinating with the now-trustworthy townie? I could see tot claiming if his scry caught a wolf, but until we knew the vortexer targeted JL and tot, it's bad to ask for a reveal like this. It honestly reads like a wolf who thinks tot was gonna scry JL, knows they got switched, and is trying to trick tot into publicly claiming fool so that nobody trusts tot's word anymore. Which hey maybe they shouldn't anyway but it's really weird to push for a claim right out the gate.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Screw it. I'm the big bad Dark Magician. I don't see a point in not claiming. But my big swing today was going to be revealing the results of a scry which isn't going to be a big impact anymore.
    ...and then the only post between this one and the previous one is JeenLeen's big post, which doesn't mention gac's post or even gac at all IIRC. And then gac claims? Why? I'll go into detail about this later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    I'm always hesitant to pick the popular option, but the reasoning seems sound and I don't have any better ideas at the moment, so CaoimhinTheCape.
    This kinda reads like "I'm gonna vote my wolf buddy, but I'm gonna toss on a bit of skepticism just in case, who knows".

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    3. Here was my plan:
    Target the claimed seer.
    Set up a QT with the seer and say "don't tell me who you targeted. Tell me the result".
    Then I post in the main thread "XYZ scries as ABC".
    Let me rephrase that.

    "Here was my plan:
    1) Target the claimed seer.
    2) Set up a QT with the seer and say "don't tell me who you targeted. Tell me the result".
    3) Post in the main thread "XYZ scries as ABC", even though the seer didn't tell me XYZ because I specifically asked them not to tell me that."


    This isn't the plan of somebody who's done a lot of thinking about their own power, this is a wolf taking a safe fake-claim and coming up with a story on-the-fly. He saw JeenLeen claim Mai, and claim JL/tot got vortexed, and popped in with "ah shucks I was gonna claim today to know who tot targeted but since it's been revealed now I may as well claim", which doesn't make a lick of sense if you're a townie. You don't claim just because your first plan for proving your claim is true failed. And it's convenient (as I noted at the time) that your "personal feedback" just so happened to be something that could be based entirely on what JeenLeen had already said about targeting stuff. And then, you claimed you didn't target JeenLeen and JL called you out on it and you had to backtrack cuz you realized you'd contradicted your own story and the existing narrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apogee1 View Post
    Funny how everyone went "Let's not d1 murska" then murska gets shot at night.
    I think I was the only one who said "lets not d1 murska", and I was specifically saying it to try to get wolves and baner to N1 murska, wasting a wolf kill. It almost worked too.


    Currently Recruiting WW/Mafia: Nothing currently. Maybe come start one?

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  11. - Top - End - #161
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    This kinda reads like "I'm gonna vote my wolf buddy, but I'm gonna toss on a bit of skepticism just in case, who knows".
    No, just my somewhat childish antipathy towards picking the popular option. If it helps, I'm no longer skeptical regarding Cao.

    I must say one amusing part about these games is how much people read into anything said (most certainly including myself. I was half-convinced Jeen was a wolf for being overly friendly).
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2021-05-10 at 01:21 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Book Wombat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    We ask some folk to target me, and the power-booster targets me again. I use Aroma on two of them to confirm their feedback and thus essentially their role.
    Or, I believe I could use it on N1 targeters, and verify gac3 as DM.
    Solomon Moto can only boost someone again after two Standby phases so the latter would probably be better.

    Solomon Moto - Experienced Player: You’ve collected all the best cards in the game, and know it better than anyone.
    Spellbook of Knowledge: On your Main Phase 2: Choose one player. Their effect is boosted depending on their special ability. Once you choose a player, you cannot boost that same player until 2 Standby Phases have passed.
    Last edited by Book Wombat; 2021-05-10 at 03:13 AM.
    Rule Number One: Do not steal cookies.
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    Discord: Bookwhyrm#4020, feel free to DM.

    Book Wombat's Extended Signature

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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Valmark's Avatar

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Wow, ok. Just got back and it's late so I don't have time for much of a post but so much for my town read of JeenLeen. Jeen is lying and his gambit apparently is going to get the wolves through Day 1 and 2, and possibly convinced a number of people to target him (redirected to totadile) Night 1.

    I'll have time for a long post tomorrow but assuming you all need a claim, I'm Solomon Moto and last night I tried to boost our claimed seer. With the whole vortex thing I guess I ended up targeting Jeen, which makes this whole situation even worse.




    Vote Count:
    CaoimhinTheCape (8): Everyone
    JeenLeen (1): CaoimhinTheCape
    This could be true.

    ...that's it. All we can do is test it and everything makes sense, there's no real reason to believe you over Jeen- coming out like that with everything supported by the other players would be very risky with a fake claim.

    In addition it would be very hard for the villains to have plotted all this- even if we consider totadile to be Bakura (so he'd work to support Jeen's version).
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    As Valmark asked me to write it out, here's my rationale.

    I tried to target totaldileplayz with Aroma.
    I was targeted by me, totaldileplayz, Cao, <redacted>, and gac3.
    I got a power boost (confirmed, essentially, by Xi) to use Aroma on anyone who targeted me last night as a bonus action. I picked Cao, since they looked the wolfy-est of those all.
    Feedback on Cao basically confirmed they are Diabound.
    That I got redirected to targeting myself, and gac3 said they tried to target totaldileplayz, makes me believe Diabound (Cao) targeted totaldileplay and JeenLeen, such that anyone targeting totaldile targeted me instead. This led to my feedback erroring out, since it would create an infinite loop of my feedback including my feedback that included me targeting myself and seeing my feedback, et al.

    I wasn't strongly accusing totaldileplayz of being Bakura. I was intending to note that they could be Bakura, either knowing Marik or Ishtar aren't in play. That gac3 claimed DM, means only <redacted> and totaldileplayz could be Ishtar/Marik.
    BUT my power got boosted, meaning someone empowered me. That Role is Yugi's grandpa. So <redacted> and totaldileplayz cannot be both Ishtar and Marik.
    Well, assuming gac3 isn't fakeclaiming DM for some reason and is actually Yugi's grandpa--but I can't see a good reason for Town!gac3 to fakeclaim, so I'll assume he's honest or a wolf.

    ...but, that everyone targeted totaldile got redirected to me... that makes me suspicious.
    Why?
    If totaldile is maybe the seer, they should try to stop him. If they know my ploy involves him targeting me, why redirect folk targeting him to target me? Unless they thought Seto would kill him, but that seems an odd move.
    I know totaldile suspected I was Mai. It was pretty obvious, probably, from what I wrote D1.
    totaldile basically had to target me, or kill me, lest I find out he didn't target me and accuse him of being a wolf for not playing ball. But Bakura wouldn't want me seeing his power feedback, in case it was different than a true seer's and we could compare notes. And he might've feared the real seer wouldn't play ball and would target totaldile, or Seto would kill totaldile as the runner-up D1, so why not redirect those to me?
    It's a stretch, yeah, but I can't see other good reasons for Diabound to redirect folk targeting totaldile to me. Seems a real waste for a seer claimant, unless it's a fakeclaim you don't want found out.
    OR, WIFOM, they knew I'd use Aroma on him, so they are setting him up to get lynched and my statements above are exactly what they want me to think.

    From a QT (initiated by the other player), I've got a Fool claim, and the Fool says they have a QT with the True Seer.
    But they are pressing for who the booster is, and I worry this is Bakura.
    Fool, if you aren't QTing me, please let me know. Or publicly claim fool. True Seer, if this ain't true... well, don't say so today -- don't want you to die tonight -- but maybe D3.
    Alright, it all makes sense now. I was missing the logic behind targeting totadileplayz giving error.

    I'm lost on the Bakura thing- I mean yes, totadile could be Bakura, but keep in mind that he was among the first to speak about why your plan was bad- thinking that he'd go along with it seems a bit of a stretch (and after many spoke about it it seems unlikely that the other Ishtar went along with it).

    Also keep in mind that from the villains' pov it looked easy to uncover who the Fool and Seer are- targeting a known role or both targeting the same person should quickly lead to the discovery of who they are. Last night there was only two known roles, one of which an Ishtar and one dead- the best way to test the scry was self-targeting.

    Although it's not totally safe- if the scriers don't target the same person one of them could easily lie to the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    All fair and plausible points, but I find it really convenient and improbable that the Fool and Seer got in touch via QT during D1.

    But it could happen. And, if it did, I see y'all doing what you did instead of (purposefully) targeting me.
    And, yeah, Diabound coulda redirected those targeting you to spread confusion. And maybe he thought it'd screw up my plan (and it did screw up the part about getting your feedback and confirming your Role).

    Just it seems just as likely that you're Bakura. And that doesn't require the unlikely event that the two Tombkeepers got in communication D1.
    Is it unlikely? A Fool and a Seer working together can easily learn faster who they are while also searching others- especially since the Fool isn't totally useless in this game once known. One of the villains cannot be scried, right?
    Of course after that specific villain is discovered it becomes weaker- still can work as a proxy (since a Fool acting as the 'voice' could work on behalf of the Seer. Or a Seer could pretend to be a Fool acting for a Seer).

    Dunno if I already said it (I have been writing this post for hours because I had to stop, so I don't remember all I wrote) but there is also to note that while Bakura could fake Fool/Seer contacting them would still be relatively safe- without a way for the Fool/Seer to know who they are the villains shouldn't kill them or they risk giving the other Ishtar the information they need (for example let's say totadileplayz dies and the death PM says they are Marik- suddenly there is a fully functioning Ishizu around).
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    If gac3 and totaldileplayz are being honest, then, between totaldile and me, we can ID the wolves.
    Unfortunately or fortunately, we seem to distrust each other.

    Living players are
    AvatarVecna - ???
    BatCatHat - ???
    Apogee1 - ???
    Cao - DEAD SOON, Diabound
    totaldileplayz -- seer or fool
    JeenLeen - Mai
    gac3 - Dark Magician
    BookWombat - ???
    Valmark - ???

    I basically know one of ??? is Solomon Moto.
    totaldile has the name of two other townies (the other Tombkeeper and whoever Ishtar scried).
    So 2 unknowns left, and those are the two wolves.

    I'm going to bed before I say something stupid, but wanted to throw that possible "we can plan and win this" out there. Folk can discuss and we decide what to do later.
    Mmm? I count five unknowns. Assuming we can remove the Ishtar that contacted totadile (and we can't actually remove them) from the wolf list and the unknown that should have boosted you we still have three unknowns. Given that the Lovers' protection should have worked last night Ishtar (not totadileplayz) could have been blocked, or they could have targeted you (going to totadile) or themselves.
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  14. - Top - End - #164
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Not quoting AV because I'm too lazy to trim down the quote. It's above this by only a few anyways.


    1. Is it weird to push for a scry result? Normally I thought the concern was outing the seer? Maybe it's because I was vague? But I didn't really care about the role. As much as them saying (x scries as wolf) or (x scries as town). Which I didn't really see as having any downside?

    2. My main plan happened a few minutes after I posted that and rushed to set up a QT with Totadileplays which came too late.

    3. I have stated more reasons for claiming than just my plan fell through. It is just what I've done in the past as a watcher. Such as when I was Collin creevy and claimed to everyone unprompted as soon as possible.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    This could be true.

    ...that's it. All we can do is test it and everything makes sense, there's no real reason to believe you over Jeen- coming out like that with everything supported by the other players would be very risky with a fake claim.

    In addition it would be very hard for the villains to have plotted all this- even if we consider totadile to be Bakura (so he'd work to support Jeen's version).

    Alright, it all makes sense now. I was missing the logic behind targeting totadileplayz giving error.

    I'm lost on the Bakura thing- I mean yes, totadile could be Bakura, but keep in mind that he was among the first to speak about why your plan was bad- thinking that he'd go along with it seems a bit of a stretch (and after many spoke about it it seems unlikely that the other Ishtar went along with it).

    Also keep in mind that from the villains' pov it looked easy to uncover who the Fool and Seer are- targeting a known role or both targeting the same person should quickly lead to the discovery of who they are. Last night there was only two known roles, one of which an Ishtar and one dead- the best way to test the scry was self-targeting.

    Although it's not totally safe- if the scriers don't target the same person one of them could easily lie to the other.

    Is it unlikely? A Fool and a Seer working together can easily learn faster who they are while also searching others- especially since the Fool isn't totally useless in this game once known. One of the villains cannot be scried, right?
    Of course after that specific villain is discovered it becomes weaker- still can work as a proxy (since a Fool acting as the 'voice' could work on behalf of the Seer. Or a Seer could pretend to be a Fool acting for a Seer).

    Dunno if I already said it (I have been writing this post for hours because I had to stop, so I don't remember all I wrote) but there is also to note that while Bakura could fake Fool/Seer contacting them would still be relatively safe- without a way for the Fool/Seer to know who they are the villains shouldn't kill them or they risk giving the other Ishtar the information they need (for example let's say totadileplayz dies and the death PM says they are Marik- suddenly there is a fully functioning Ishizu around).

    Mmm? I count five unknowns. Assuming we can remove the Ishtar that contacted totadile (and we can't actually remove them) from the wolf list and the unknown that should have boosted you we still have three unknowns. Given that the Lovers' protection should have worked last night Ishtar (not totadileplayz) could have been blocked, or they could have targeted you (going to totadile) or themselves.
    Yeah Jeen is almost always real because he correctly identified everyone who targeted him, which is not something that wolves should be able to do without massive luck I think.

    And yeah, totaldile doesn't really fit as the bakura.

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    OK, so. For JeenLeen lying.

    First, let's take a look at the original post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    Mai Valentine - Observer: You have tuned your senses to give yourself a near-psychic knowledge of your surroundings.
    Elegant Egotist: Each standby phase, you learn which players target you on the previous Main Phase 2.
    Aroma Strategy: On your Main Phase 2: Target 1 player who has targeted you. On your next standby phase, learn the results (verbatim) that player received when targeting you.
    Mai should get the info back on the next day's standby phase, not immediately like Jeen did. In his first post, he gives the quote of his results as if he got the info back immediately. This is more than Mai should be able to on one phase and none of us noticed it. That right off the bat should be a red flag.

    Jeen comes up with an explanation for this mistake in his reading of Mai's powers:

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    As Valmark asked me to write it out, here's my rationale.

    I tried to target totaldileplayz with Aroma.
    I was targeted by me, totaldileplayz, Cao, <redacted>, and gac3.
    I got a power boost (confirmed, essentially, by Xi) to use Aroma on anyone who targeted me last night as a bonus action. I picked Cao, since they looked the wolfy-est of those all.
    There's two pieces to this explanation that seem fishy.

    - Mai's ability shouldn't resolve that quickly. So, to explain, he says he was boosted and knows who boosted him but we have no way to verify this person who let him get the info so quickly.
    - He claims that he targeted me. But in an earlier post he says he uses it on Totadile:
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I'm Mai and I used Aroma Strategy on totaldileplayz, assuming he would target me.
    Jeen's entire claim is that he was boosted - which meant that he was able to use the power immediately and use it on two people (Totadile and myself) in one phase.



    So, Jeen's account of events:
    1 - Booster tries to target totadile and gets switched to JeenLeen (Which is, well, what I did).
    2 - In Standby phase, Jeen's "power" allows him to both see and target someone in the same phase, rather than just see who targeted him.
    3 - He targets Totadile and when it doesn't work he targets Cao.
    4 - Jeen has the time to get all this information either near the end of Main Phase 2 (when people could still be changing their powers/putting in a last minute ability) or he gets the info in the End Phase (when Villain actions resolve). He then has time to act on it and gets his results in the Standby Phase (only because he was boosted). Either way, the timing for when he got the list of players is not when those powers should be resolving at all.



    My account of what happened:
    1 - Start of the game, Jeen is a wolf whose team gets to see that Mai is not in play. Sets himself up for the fake claim/being trusted by the town.

    2 - He starts directing where people should put their night actions. As a wolf, he knows that his team can vortex everyone away from him anyway. Bonus points for telling everyone what to do and then saying he won't claim D2 anyway (he wont need to, as everything will be vortexed away).
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Blue Eyes, if you exist, please do not target me.
    I reckon Tea exists since she is the baner. Please target me. Part of this plan works even if I die, but it'd be more fruitful if I'm alive.
    Seer(s), please target me. If both Marik and Ishtar are in play, and you both target me, unless by very bad odds Marik gets RNGed my Role, we'll know the real seer. It'll be a bummer for neither of you to get a wolf tonight, but at least you'll know your results are valid/invalid for future nights.
    Dark Magician Girl, not sure if it'd help or not for you to target me, but you might serve as a backup if I die. And maybe you'll catch Zorc by process of elimination.

    If I'm alive D2, I probably will not claim my Role. I might have said enough to give it away -- trying not to, but not sure -- but I don't want to make it too easy for the wolves to fake being a seer. Or at least I want them to waste Bakura's scry on me instead of someone else, if they're gonna learn it.
    But I will claim if one of the seers says what result they got on me, to verify it and their powers. Or, well, if they're the fool, I may just say they're the fool.
    3 - People push back on the plan. Jeen admits it has faults but still tries to get it to happen. Also says he counted on Tea's bane to be redirected to a wolf. Which. Is weird? Why expect (and be ok with) what he thought was a heal going to a wolf?
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I have screwed myself up rather significantly, especially since (if I understand it right) the Yugi-bane does nothing N1, and I reckon the strongest bet for the Lovers is to protect each other.
    However, my plan perhaps still has merit. If I die, Dark Magician Girl might be able to help verify a towncore (or at least, of these X people, probably only 1 is a wolf) and we can try to investigate them more fully. And if the seer(s) targeted me, they'd likely know which one of them is fool and which true seer (again, barring really bad RNG result for Marik), since my Role would become public.

    If Diabound and Dark Magician Girl both target me, and I live, we should be able to lynch Diabound D2.
    Honestly, I was counting on Diabound vortexing me to redirect Tea's bane to one of the wolves... but that isn't what Tea does, so... well, that is bad for me and is a disincentive for the wolves to do what I want. (Or I am misdirecting them by this paragraph? )
    4 - Asks about the Vortex power, making sure it will work as intended (that the Seers don't actually end up targeting him when they get redirected).

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Though to make sure I'm not misunderstanding another power interaction:
    With how the vortexer works...
    If, for example, DMG, Ishtar, Marik, and Diabound target me to redirect to Elenna, then DMG, Ishtar, and Marik will target Elenna.
    Diabound also shows up as targeting Elenna, since they target two players.
    DMG sees that 3 players targeted Elenna. Presumably, she can guess that they are Ishtar, Marik, and Diabound.
    Does that fit folks' interpretation of the power? Xihirli, are you willing to confirm if that would be correct (assuming no other players interfere with targeting)?
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    If Diabound and Zorc target me and Elenna as above, would I die or Elenna die?
    5 - Elenna (The Dark Magician Girl) is lynched and we go into Night. This in itself hurts Jeen's supposed plan where DMG would help to verify town. With so many people doubting the plan, Jeen wants to make sure that nothing intending to target him actually works. They vortex things away from Jeen. After Totadile's seer claim, he'll probably be protected/helped in some way and wanted whatever was targeting him to target Jeen.

    6 - My power goes off. Totadile should have gotten the power boost but instead it goes to Jeen. Jeen (and by extension the wolves) learn what exactly that boost is for them.

    7 - With the extra power, the wolf team is confident that if they can get through this day they are all set (or at least have an easy Day 3). They choose someone who was suspicious Day 1 (which had a lot to do with me repeating a phrase a couple times in one post?) and try to push through a lynch with little discussion. Jeen even lampshades that the town play would be to wait and try to catch other wolves.
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    ...I realize an error in judgement, in that I should have let some discussion go forward a bit so we'd see who defends or goes along with a Cao vote without much evidence, but I'm going to be offline most of the rest of today and Monday... so wasn't thinking clearly.
    But at least we should get a wolf today. And one of hte more annoying ones to deal with.





    tl;dr If we have 3 wolves, Day 2 wouldn't normally be lynch or lose. But now they have some extra power that I accidentally gave them and that could make them powerful enough to get through the rest of the game. As "Mai" he was able to target two people during a phase when he shouldn't normally have gotten results and is using that to push through a lynch which literally everyone got behind with very little discussion.

    I know it comes down to my word vs his but we can't let (what I'm assuming is) 3 wolves with some sort of extra power get through to Day 3. Even if you guys lynch Jeen tomorrow the wolves will have had more than enough Night actions to mess with people/get through to the end of the game.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    - Mai's ability shouldn't resolve that quickly. So, to explain, he says he was boosted and knows who boosted him but we have no way to verify this person who let him get the info so quickly.
    - He claims that he targeted me. But in an earlier post he says he uses it on Totadile:

    Jeen's entire claim is that he was boosted - which meant that he was able to use the power immediately and use it on two people (Totadile and myself) in one phase.

    So, Jeen's account of events:
    1 - Booster tries to target totadile and gets switched to JeenLeen (Which is, well, what I did).
    2 - In Standby phase, Jeen's "power" allows him to both see and target someone in the same phase, rather than just see who targeted him.
    3 - He targets Totadile and when it doesn't work he targets Cao.
    4 - Jeen has the time to get all this information either near the end of Main Phase 2 (when people could still be changing their powers/putting in a last minute ability) or he gets the info in the End Phase (when Villain actions resolve). He then has time to act on it and gets his results in the Standby Phase (only because he was boosted). Either way, the timing for when he got the list of players is not when those powers should be resolving at all.

    My account of what happened:
    1 - Start of the game, Jeen is a wolf whose team gets to see that Mai is not in play. Sets himself up for the fake claim/being trusted by the town.
    2 - He starts directing where people should put their night actions. As a wolf, he knows that his team can vortex everyone away from him anyway. Bonus points for telling everyone what to do and then saying he won't claim D2 anyway (he wont need to, as everything will be vortexed away).
    3 - People push back on the plan. Jeen admits it has faults but still tries to get it to happen. Also says he counted on Tea's bane to be redirected to a wolf. Which. Is weird? Why expect (and be ok with) what he thought was a heal going to a wolf?
    4 - Asks about the Vortex power, making sure it will work as intended (that the Seers don't actually end up targeting him when they get redirected).
    5 - Elenna (The Dark Magician Girl) is lynched and we go into Night. This in itself hurts Jeen's supposed plan where DMG would help to verify town. With so many people doubting the plan, Jeen wants to make sure that nothing intending to target him actually works. They vortex things away from Jeen. After Totadile's seer claim, he'll probably be protected/helped in some way and wanted whatever was targeting him to target Jeen.
    6 - My power goes off. Totadile should have gotten the power boost but instead it goes to Jeen. Jeen (and by extension the wolves) learn what exactly that boost is for them.
    7 - With the extra power, the wolf team is confident that if they can get through this day they are all set (or at least have an easy Day 3). They choose someone who was suspicious Day 1 (which had a lot to do with me repeating a phrase a couple times in one post?) and try to push through a lynch with little discussion. Jeen even lampshades that the town play would be to wait and try to catch other wolves.




    tl;dr If we have 3 wolves, Day 2 wouldn't normally be lynch or lose. But now they have some extra power that I accidentally gave them and that could make them powerful enough to get through the rest of the game. As "Mai" he was able to target two people during a phase when he shouldn't normally have gotten results and is using that to push through a lynch which literally everyone got behind with very little discussion.

    I know it comes down to my word vs his but we can't let (what I'm assuming is) 3 wolves with some sort of extra power get through to Day 3. Even if you guys lynch Jeen tomorrow the wolves will have had more than enough Night actions to mess with people/get through to the end of the game.
    No. Jeen's account is that he was boosted and got to use Aroma Therapy immediately- the reason for the two targets was because targeting Totadileplayz was invalid because it would make an infinite loop.

    The timing would make sense if he got boosted.

    You haven't explained how Jeen got the list of players targeting Totadileplayz- it makes sense how he explained it, but yours? I doubt all of them told Jeen who were they targeting (or if they did I doubt they would be truthful).

    I thought the reason you're suspicious is because Jeen's power showed that you're Diabound.

    Eh, the last part applies to you too- if Jeen is truthful listening to you means sending three wolves into Day 3, albeit presumably without extra power.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

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  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    I haven't fully read everything, but want to clarify my actual account of events.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    So, Jeen's account of events:
    1 - Booster tries to target totadile and gets switched to JeenLeen (Which is, well, what I did).
    2 - In Standby phase, Jeen's "power" allows him to both see and target someone in the same phase, rather than just see who targeted him.
    3 - He targets Totadile and when it doesn't work he targets Cao.
    4 - Jeen has the time to get all this information either near the end of Main Phase 2 (when people could still be changing their powers/putting in a last minute ability) or he gets the info in the End Phase (when Villain actions resolve). He then has time to act on it and gets his results in the Standby Phase (only because he was boosted). Either way, the timing for when he got the list of players is not when those powers should be resolving at all.
    During the Night, I said I was targeting totaldile. If totaldile did target me, it'd work. If he didn't, the power would fail due to invalid targeting. I can use Aroma, even if I don't know who targeted me; it just might fail. Similar to how, during Recruitment, Xi said Tea could use Aroma, if she felt lucky.

    Due to the power boost, I had the extra ability to immediately use Aroma on a second target, after I learnt who targeted me last night.
    I picked Cao since they were the most wolfy out of <redacted> and gac3, and I already had the feedback from totaldile.

    I don't feel I really need to defend myself, but I wanted to clarify what happened.

    <hr></hr>

    I think, if anyone has lied so far, it's likely
    1) gac3, for... unclear reasons, but AV is touching on possible reasons.
    2) totaldile, as Bakura fakeclaiming a Role they know isn't there. And the 'other' Tombkeeper got in touch with them D1 to network, and he's playing them
    3) the other Tombkeeper. totaldile is honest, but Bakura knows the other Role is absent, and reached out with a fakeclaim to fool totaldile
    4) totaldile and the "other Tombkeeper" are the two wolves and both lying.

    For 2 and 3, I think it's unlikely the Fool is in play but the Seer isn't... but that's not impossible.
    #4 seems unlikely, as that requires both that Bakura knows Ishtar and Marik aren't there, and it's a real risky gambit since it might out both wolves if either are caught in a lie.

    I know who Ishtar was claimed to have scried N1. They are Town, if totaldile and other Tombkeeper are Town.

    Unrelated: we know gac3 and totaldile are not Zorc, since they targeted someone. Zorc doesn't target, so anyone who targeted is not Zorc. Also, rather likely, if anyone's targeting failed on someone, that person it failed to target is Zorc, as Zorc can't be targeted.

    Totaldile seems offended by my paranoia and skepeticism, and is refusing to share information now. Which I kinda get. I'm refusing to share who <redacted> is with them.
    I do plan to share everything I learned with <redacted>, so that, if I die, they can share and hopefully we can solve everything D3.

    - - - Updated - - -

    EDIT: ninja'd by Valmark, for explanation of N1

  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    If you haven't checked QT in awhile, please check. Somebody might've started one with you.

    (This is directed at a particular person who I'm not naming, but also if somebody else hasn't checked QT in awhile, it might be applicable to them too.)


    Currently Recruiting WW/Mafia: Nothing currently. Maybe come start one?

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  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Note: Keep in mind that the Lovers' power was still in play last Phase- so if someone failed to target somebody else it could have been... Yugi's power, I think.

    No such thing next Phase unless the one who gets the power of the dead is in play and steals the bane and uses it (no good way to confirm that).

    Also Zorc targets- they are the one carrying out the kill among the villains.
    I won an argument with my GM -15/08/2017- (20:32 GMT +1)

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  21. - Top - End - #171
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Note: Keep in mind that the Lovers' power was still in play last Phase- so if someone failed to target somebody else it could have been... Yugi's power, I think.

    No such thing next Phase unless the one who gets the power of the dead is in play and steals the bane and uses it (no good way to confirm that).

    Also Zorc targets- they are the one carrying out the kill among the villains.
    I assumed the point had been more along the lines of Jeen wouldn't have seen a Zorc target. Because Jeen would be dead.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    I assumed the point had been more along the lines of Jeen wouldn't have seen a Zorc target. Because Jeen would be dead.
    That's... Yeah, somehow I hadn't connected that.
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  23. - Top - End - #173
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    I assumed the point had been more along the lines of Jeen wouldn't have seen a Zorc target. Because Jeen would be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    That's... Yeah, somehow I hadn't connected that.
    Yeah. Nobody targeting me N1 could be Zorc, since otherwise I'd be dead. If gac3 or totaldileplayz are a wolf, they have to be Bakura.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    You know you have quite a habit of saying we've won or are just one move away from it, when often there are variables that are left unaccounted for in those claims.
    True; a bad habit.
    And I realize I've been overly sloppy this game. Probably came off as arrogant at times, but it was mostly meant as excitement about a 'cool idea' and catching Diabound. I am sorry. Real life excuses are part of it, but, well, still sloppy gameplay. My plot still worked, basically, even if the seer(s) didn't willingly cooperate. If totaldile is believed, Marik and Ishtar know who they are (though I think they would have even without me) and we caught Diabound -- basically the maximum outcome I was hoping for.

    But, in this case...
    If gac3 is honest, and if totaldile is honest, and if the other Tombkeeper he is in contact with is honest, then only two players are unknowns if totaldile and I fully shared our info.
    My list has 5 ???: one is the other Tombkeeper, one is who Ishtar verified as Town N1, and one is Solomon Moto. 2 left.

    If I'm alive D3, then I'll share who I trust as Solomon (unless they object) to totaldile.
    If I'm dead D3, then Solomon Moto can claim. He knows everything I know, and can network with totaldile if he wishes.

    I'm leaning towards believing totaldile. But I don't want to out Solomon.
    I could see Solomon empowering totaldile or gac3, though. Even if one is Bakura... an empowered Bakura probably isn't too bad. I'd rather that an accidentally risk empowering Zorc by hitting one of the unknowns.

  24. - Top - End - #174
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    It says no private messages, but it doesn't say no sharing quick topics. Could I publicly post a link to a quick topic for conversation with groups or just to share ones I have?
    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    If you like.
    If I give Solomon Moto the links to all the QTs I am currently in with other players, would Solomon Moto then be allowed to post in those QTs?

  25. - Top - End - #175
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    I see no point in stopping him.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceseer View Post
    I really wanted what Xihirli said to be true though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    If Xi and I agree some more, I will start to doubt my own alignment!
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Interesting mechanic... Xihirli has to make the QT's. So there is almost no way to fake them or anything like that. But on the other hand, they are free to be shared? Fascinating.

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post

    But, in this case...
    If gac3 is honest, and if totaldile is honest, and if the other Tombkeeper he is in contact with is honest, then only two players are unknowns if totaldile and I fully shared our info.
    My list has 5 ???: one is the other Tombkeeper, one is who Ishtar verified as Town N1, and one is Solomon Moto. 2 left.
    Again, keep in mind that the verified-as-Town could have been baned, in which case there would be no assurance regarding wether they are a Hero or Zorc.

    (Also quick clarification: Ishtar are both the Seer and Fool. Marik is the Fool and Ishizu is the Seer).

    Every time I read Ishtar my dumb bird brain takes a few seconds to understand despite being obvious in the context xD
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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    Again, keep in mind that the verified-as-Town could have been baned, in which case there would be no assurance regarding wether they are a Hero or Zorc.
    True, but doesn't Magical Hats not activate until after the N1 kill?
    It activates in the Standby Phase, while Zorc's kill is End Phase, so Magical Hats wouldn't protect ANYONE N1. Also, for all we know, Mirror Force was used. I'm inclined to think the Lovers targeted themself N1.

    I've been sloppy and misunderstood a lot, but that's one data point I think I understood. Was I wrong?

    FROM RECRUITMENT:
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I've still been having trouble understanding the Lovers' powers. Is this a correct translation of the Lovers' power to normal Mafia parlance?

    Mirror Force: during Night phase, target a player. If the player would be lynched the next Day, they survive and someone who voted for them dies instead.

    Magical Hats: during Night phase, target a player. That player can be targeted this Night by other players, but at the beginning of Day they become immune to targeting for that entire Day and Night


    Also, while targeting 'moves' from the inactive Lover to the active (e.g., target Yugi while Pharaoh was active, and Pharaoh is targeted instead), both are vulnerable to the daily Lynch. Correct?
    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    All of those statements are correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valmark View Post
    (Also quick clarification: Ishtar are both the Seer and Fool. Marik is the Fool and Ishizu is the Seer).
    Really? Wow. Another sloppy misread on my part.
    To anyone I talked with: when I say 'Ishtar', I've meant the True Seer. I'll try to (and probably fail to) do better for the rest of the game.

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    True, but doesn't Magical Hats not activate until after the N1 kill?
    It activates in the Standby Phase, while Zorc's kill is End Phase, so Magical Hats wouldn't protect ANYONE N1. Also, for all we know, Mirror Force was used. I'm inclined to think the Lovers targeted themself N1.

    I've been sloppy and misunderstood a lot, but that's one data point I think I understood. Was I wrong?
    From what I understood you were saying that the unknown Tombkeeper cleared a Town (one of your unknowns)- homewever if they targeted Zorc they'd get no result.

    The same thing would happen if they targeted someome baned- the Lovers were still alive on Main Phase 2, so they could have baned someone, and their power triggers on the Standby Phase same as the scry.

    From what I understand this would mean that the scry could've been blocked.

    Or they could have tried to Scry one of the Lovers who are now dead- we still don't know who got scried so that's a possibility too.
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Werewolf/Mafia: Yu-Gi-Oh!

    FOLLOW-UP: I realized why Valmark's statement is correct. Even if the Zorc-kill goes through (as it obviously did), the bane could still stop a TOWN power, since those resolve in Standby when Magical Hats would also in effect. That Yugi/Yami died before Magical Hats resolves doesn't change that it was activated successfully.

    - - - Updated - - -

    edit: ninja'd
    And, yeah, I guess that is possible. Come to think of it, I was only told who got scried by the True Seer, not the result. I just assumed it was Town.

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