Templates can cause such game breaking

[Purple Cloak]

basicaly my post is about the fact that me and my DM were discussing templates that can be added, and how badly the system can be abused,

as such as i was making a paladin, i used him as a focus, the results were horrable.

Edit: its a 6th level human paladin to allow for the saint template

i added the half celestial, half dragon (gold), saint and were direbear (born, elce the disease immunity would kick in)

as ive worked it out so far he would get:

+12 str, a further 20 in lycan form
+2 dex, 2 more in lycan
+8 con, 8 more in lycan
+4 int
+6 wisdom (the saint also allows the monks wisdom bonus to armor)
+10 charisma (lets rember its a paladin, so thats plus 5 to the savingthrows)

8 feats, and iron will for free, 3 of these must be spent on exhalted feats for saint

im not sure how this would work but 3 lots of DR 10 for silver, magic and evil, some think as it says if the 'base creatures is lower, use this one' factor means it stacks, but has 3 things that negate it

365 skill points, all but 25 of these are for first level (mostly racial)

immunity to fire, acid, cold, electrisity, disease and petrafacation, also two lots of +4 vs poison (possably stacked)

claw and bite attacks in non lycan form, count as good for DR, in both

ability wise their are loads, id rather not list them all so ill list a few of them, i may list others later is cause arises

fast healing, 6 hp back a round
30 cone of fire breath weapon
wings with a flight speed of twice the base land speed
spell resistance of HD+10, 35 max
daylight at will
smite evil once per day, based of HD
bonus damage to evil, sothing like D6, D8 is undead or outsider
protective aura

a bunch of spell like abilitys from saint and half celestial

darkvision and low light vision, with scent in any form

and this is before any class features

however the ECL is 18 and counts as 18 HD

so im thinking that this isnt bending the rules, its oblitarating them horrably


in case any one wants to know, the stats i rolled for my paladin are 16,13,16,13,16,18 but im thinking they wont be seeing this combo of bonuses

if i ever get chance and leave to do this, ill let you guys know how it pans out

otherwise i may just throw it against them when im running......

[BRC]

I'm preety sure there are costs associated with all templates, if not, then somthing is seriously messed up.

That said, your avatar seems a bit on the illegal side to me

[Tyger]

Even if that is the case... how exactly is that broken? Only if your GM allows you to play that in a group of first level character. Put that same character up against actual ECL 18 characters though. You have the stats, BAB, saves, abilities and WBL of a first level character. The 18th level characters are going to make you look very bad indeed.

[Townopolis]

Just curious, what's your Attack Bonus and how many HP do you have?

[Forrestfire]

where did you fit in the LA from all these templates? I calculated it, and you would end up with ECL 23 plus the LA from Saint (1 from paladin, +12 from dire bear HD, +3 from LA of natural lycanthrope, +4 from half-celestial, +3 from half-dragon, plus whatever the LA is for saint)

[Mojo_Rat]

Im not familiar with the Saint template but where are you geting your 8 feats from?.

The only feats the character should have are from the Animal hd given by the werebear and the 2 levels of paladin the character will have as an ecl 18 creature (assuming level 20 is the base) and the 6 hd from being a werebear.

that means as a level 20 creature you will have 2d10 +6d8 hps.

secondly how did you conclude all of those Skill points you claimed the character would have?. If the templates only give +4 int and given you rolled obscelenylg good stats the character should have what a lvl 2 paladin with 6 animal hos has for sp.. and be capped as a level 8 creature for skills. which given his crappy skill point options wont be alot of maxed skills.

Edited Seems i did not notice he said were direbear not werebear. so would be 12 animal hd

[Reel On, Love]

[Zincorium]

Why your character is going to suck dust:

The rules for characters with level adjustments

And if you do not go by the rules, you do not get any sympathy. Them's the breaks.

[RTGoodman]

Okay, that's something like a +12 Level Adjustment and 6(?) racial hit dice from Were-bear.

So, a 2nd-level Paladin with those templates has a whopping 6d8+2d10+(Con. mod x 10) HP.

You only have the skill points from 6 racial hit dice and 2 levels of Paladin. I don't know how you got your figure.

Also, it doesn't count as 18 HD - you've only got 8 HD. So something based on HD is going to wreak havok with you.

There are probably a few more problems, but I'm not sure what they are.

[Zanatos777]

Umm, what is your starting paladin level? Must be around...1. That is 7 HD not 18. Also how exactly are you getting so many skill points? Templates don't work like that. Your not going to get a bazillion skill points your going to get...8+int times HD+3 but only for racial HD. From there its all paladin. That should not get anywhere near the number you have. You may be ECL 18 but your going to be crushed by anything that is near that.
Damage reduction by the way doesn't stack up it instead will use whichever works in the situation. In other words the weapon must be silver, magic, and evil to break it. Based on my understanding you cannot have the saint template anyway since you are not level 6 yet.

Edit: oops he hadn't noted his paladin was 6th level and I missed that it was a dire bear.

Thats way worse in all respects.

[Purple Cloak]

i should point out it has to be 6th level, to allow for saint, you wouldnt get +12 LA for the werebear, only 3 according to the rules in the MM

i didnt work out HP but BAB would be only 6, but the strenth bonuses would help rectify this, and the DR and regenaration would also help negate the low HP problem is my point

but maybe reel on is right and ive miscalculated this somewhere, but my point is about how templates can be exploted, not making a realistec, or even theseable charicter

on another note bloddyredcommie, could you PM me on why my avatars illegal please? im not sure why it would be


Edit: the skill points are baised from both the lycan and the half celestial racial skill points

the HD is baised off the fact that, if i understood corectly, i count as having +12 HD from the Direbear, oposed to a brownbear giving only 6 and a further 6 for the paladin

[Reel On, Love]

but maybe reel on is right and ive miscalculated this somewhere, but my point is about how templates can be exploted, not making a realistec, or even theseable charicter

You've miscalculated in a whole lot of places. I don't think you took note of how Level Adjustment works. What's more,
.


Your point is wrong. Templates, with a few very particular exceptions, can't be exploited, because level adjustment is so bad. The more templates a character has, the worse he's going to suck. Almost all templates are terrible deals, while we're at it: Feral is notoriously overpowered, Dark and Mineral Warrior are worthwhile, and Saint can be, too, but that's about it.

[Mojo_Rat]

A slight revision of my last post. From the weredirebear alone. (as a note here I have not used the term Lycan once. Since this essentially is not a D&D term)

12 Animal Hd +3 LAfrom being a natural werebear. So the werebear portion alone is 15 ECL

Half dragon is La +3

So the character is already at Ecl 18 and the Saint template is not applied. I dont know anything about this Template But It says to me the origonal poster made some Serious mathematical errors.

As an adenum also what is your base race for this?.

[Purple Cloak]

can i request that people point out where ive miscalculated, as it stands all i see is my figures and people saying ive got them wrong, i cant understand unless i can see the mistake


edit: although im now revising the lycanthrope rules, that could be a huge error

[Zanatos777]

A slight revision of my last post. From the weredirebear alone. (as a note here I have not used the term Lycan once. Since this essentially is not a D&D term)

12 Animal Hd +3 LAfrom being a natural werebear. So the werebear portion alone is 15 ECL

Half dragon is La +3

So the character is already at Ecl 18 and the Saint template is not applied. I dont know anything about this Template But It says to me the origonal poster made some Serious mathematical errors.

As an adenum also what is your base race for this?.

Saint is +2 and requires you to be level 6 with three exalted feats.

This should help:
Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level

To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.

If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later).

Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice.
Hit Dice

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.
Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases

A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

[Zincorium]

can i request that people point out where ive miscalculated, as it stands all i see is my figures and people saying ive got them wrong, i cant understand unless i can see the mistake

Alright, in order of application:

Were-direbear: +3 LA, 12 hit dice of animal
Half celestial: +4 LA
Half dragon: +4 LA
Saint: +2 LA

Now Read the link I posted about how you apply level adjustment to characters. And realize that you HAVE to have those hit dice.

[Temp]

Even if this were legal, how would it be more powerful than an equal-level Adept or Monk?

[Purple Cloak]

Even if this were legal, how would it be more powerful than an equal-level Adept or Monk?

the huge stacks of specal abilities and stat boosts

[daggaz]

And your avatar is illegal because its a direct copy of Rich's work (it is Redcloak), and the Giant does not take too kindly on people illegally using his copyrighted work. (unfortunately for us 'copyright infringement is the ultimate form of flattery' people... god I love Matt Groening)

[Kaelik]

Okay. You have:

Were-Dire Bear HD 12
LA from Were-Bear 3
LA from Half Dragon 3
LA from Half Celestial 3
Levels of Paladin 6
Saint Template LA X

You are an ECL 27 + X creature. You suck. My Epic Spellcaster at 21 can kill you over and over. My level 20 Cleric with a few caster boosts Blasphemes you.

[Purple Cloak]

And your avatar is illegal because its a direct copy of Rich's work (it is Redcloak), and the Giant does not take too kindly on people illegally using his copyrighted work. (unfortunately for us 'copyright infringement is the ultimate form of flattery' people... god I love Matt Groening)

as ive stated previoly, but not on this thread, its not actualy a copy of his work, and ive also stated that im also going to mod it as soon as i have time, to help clarify this point, don't want to be thought of as a filthy breacher of copyright

edit: oh and Kaelik, spell resistance, good savingthrows and immunity to a lot of elements, he may not be as absoultely dominating in his powers as you think

[Temp]

the huge stacks of specal abilities and stat boosts

But you have no skill points, feats, HP, Base Attack, saving throws or class abilities to back them up...

A Feral Melee-type would be a powerful use of a Template.

A Phrenic Cloistered Cleric might get some use from his level adjustment.

This? Not so much.

[illathid]

Ok, lets go trough this.

You started with a level 6 Paladin, added Were-Bear which adds 6 animal hit dice and a +3 LA for an ECL total of 15. Half-Celestial adds a LA of +4 and Half-Dragon adds a LA of +3 for an ECL total of 22. Adding the Saint template on top of that adds another +2 LA for grand total ECL of 24.

This character only has 12 hit dice, a BAB of 10, an AC of 17+armor+dex mod+wis mod, and some increases to stats and some special abilities.

However, compare this to a Solar which has a CR 23.

the Solar has 22 Hit dice, a BAB 22, an AC of 35, good stats, a crap ton of spell-like abilities, regeneration(!), and casting as a level 20 cleric on top of all of that.

Are you honestly going to tell me that the templated paladin is even going to be close to a match which the solar?

edit: Ninja'd.

also, a were dire bear? wow, that even worse.

[StickMan]

I think the OP is under the impression that LA does not stack.


To the OP LA stacks each templates Level adjustments adds so +4 from half dragon +3 from Half celestial= +7 LA and so on when you add the others. I don't feel like looking them up sorry for my laziness.

[Ozymandias]

Ok, lets go trough this.

You started with a level 6 Paladin, added Were-Bear which adds 6 animal hit dice and a +3 LA for an ECL total of 15. Half-Celestial adds a LA of +4 and Half-Dragon adds a LA of +3 for an ECL total of 22. Adding the Saint template on top of that adds another +2 LA for grand total ECL of 24.

This character only has 12 hit dice, a BAB of 10, an AC of 17+armor+dex mod+wis mod, and some increases to stats and some special abilities.

However, compare this to a Solar which has a CR 23.

the Solar has 22 Hit dice, a BAB 22, an AC of 35, good stats, a crap ton of spell-like abilities, regeneration(!), and casting as a level 20 cleric on top of all of that.

Are you honestly going to tell me that the templated paladin is even going to be close to a match which the solar?

I don't think an ECL 24 character is supposed to be able to solo a CR 23 Monster.

[Mojo_Rat]

Baseed on the information I have been presented on here is some finer dertails for the Op.

Level 1 human paladin.
1d10 + 12d10 (Animal hps raised 1d)
you would have
for skill points I will assume the 13 was put into int and 1 atribute was added to it so 18 int

You would have
(2+4)x4 +4 sp at 1st level paladin
You would then get
2+4+1 (2 + int + human bonus) or 7 sp a level. as a 13 hd creature you would be capped to 16 Ranks in class skills (which due to 12 lhd of animal will mostly blow) and 8 ranks in cross class skills.
108 skill points total.

With all your +LA Half Dragon +3 (i checked Srd) Werebear +3 (for being a natural) Half Celestial +4 and Saint +2 You are +12 Level adjustment on top of your 13 Hd

in otherwords you are a level 25 character.

[Purple Cloak]

I think the OP is under the impression that LA does not stack.

i have been stacking them, i aparently just miscalculated the were direbear bit, which as ive already stated, considarable balences things

[Mojo_Rat]

I forgot the 6 levels of paladin. so the character is ECL 30.

[Purple Cloak]

true, but i have conseded my point and am willing to admit being wrong, please stop pointing out the fact i can't count now please

[illathid]

I don't think an ECL 24 character is supposed to be able to solo a CR 23 Monster.

Actually, given the supposed math behind the CR system, a ECL 23 character should be an even match with a CR 23 creature.

A party of 4 should spend 1/4 of their daily resources fighting an appropriate CR challenge. Therefore a party of 1 should spend almost all of his resources fighting a a creature with a CR equal to his ECL. Which is to say, the fight should be able to go either way depending on strategy and dice rolls.