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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Sep 2016
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    Default Boss Balance Input

    Spoiler: Prince Apophas the Bright, Warlord of the 18th Dynasty
    Show
    Medium Undead, Lawful Evil
    AC: 18 (Scale Mail +1, Shield)
    HP: 78 (12d8 + 24)
    Speed: 30 feet

    STR 19 DEX 12 CON 15 INT 14 WIS 17 CHA 18

    Skills: Athletics +7, Perception +6
    Senses: Darkvision 60 feet, Passive Perception 16
    Saving Throws: Wisdom +6
    Damage Immunities: Poison
    Condition Immunities: Poisoned

    The Curse: When Prince Apophas is slain, the creature that slew him must make a DC 15 Charisma saving throw. On a success, a creature suffers 4d6 necrotic damage. On a failure the creature suffers the same damage and is afflicted with a terrible curse of festering sores, which daily yield forth black maggots. The cursed creature suffers disadvantage on Constitution saving throws, as well as ability checks to interact socially with other creatures.

    Eternal Overlord: Apophas' tomb servants are bound to serve him eternally. When a friendly Skeleton is reduced to 0 HP while Prince Apophas is conscious, it is not destroyed, but is instead incapacitated and unconscious while it attempts to re-knit itself. At the end of each of that Skeleton's turns, it has a 50% chance to reanimate with all of its hit points.

    Actions

    Multiattack: Prince Apophas uses his Death Mask and makes two sword attacks.

    Death Mask: One creature that Prince Apophas can see within 60 feet must succeed on a DC 15 Wisdom saving throw or be frightened of Prince Apophas until the start of his next turn.

    Sword: Melee Weapon Attack, +7 to hit, reach 5 feet, one creature. Hit: 9 (1d8+4) slashing damage, plus 2 (1d4) fire damage.

    Reactions

    Parry: Prince Apophas adds 3 to his AC against one attack that would hit him. To do so, he must see the attacker and be wielding a melee weapon.


    Spoiler: Canopic Jars
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    Prince Apophas' vital organs have been ritually stored in four blessed jars of purest jade; while so stored and protected, they grant him nigh-divine strength.

    These jars are kept in Prince Apophas' sarcophagus. They have AC 10 and 15 hit points each, and can be told apart by the animal whose visage is carved in the lid. Destroying a jar removes the listed benefit from Prince Apophas.

    Baboon (Lungs): Prince Apophas has resistance to all damage.

    Jackal (Stomach): Prince Apophas has advantage on all saving throws.

    Lion (Liver): Prince Apophas can make three sword attacks, rather than two, when he takes his multiattack action.

    Falcon (Intestines): At the start of each of his turns, Prince Apophas regains 15 Hit Points, provided he has at least 1 Hit Point remaining.


    Now, according to the CR calculation guidelines in the DMG, he should be about a CR 4 without the buffs from the Canopic Jars, and a CR 8 with them. But I don't exactly trust those guidelines, so I'm interested in human input about whether or not he functions rightly.

    He, along with 12 Skeletons, is the final encounter of his own tomb, intended to be fought by a party of 4 level 6 characters. If the player characters have been thorough in exploring the rest of the tomb, they should be able to collect enough information from inscriptions to know about the canopic jars and how they work, and a rough idea that skeletal minions in his chamber will keep coming back while he still... un-lives.

    My intent is that if the player characters have that information and capitalize on it, the fight should be tough but manageable. If they do not have that information or fail to capitalize on it, the fight should be brutally difficult, with deaths all but certain and a TPK likely.

    Do you think his stats, and the stats of the canopic jars, seem about right for that dynamic? Should I add or subtract skeletons? Any suggested features or stat tweaks for the big guy? I feel I've gotten it mostly right but it's always good to have outside eyes.
    Last edited by Catullus64; 2021-05-10 at 10:09 AM.
    The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.

    What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.

    Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.

    Nothing is given so generously as advice.

    We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.

    -Francois, Duc de La Rochefoucauld

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2018

    Default Re: Boss Balance Input

    I'd call the Prince a CR 5 on his own, and eyeballing it with the jars and the returning skeletons I'd say over CR 10. A few thoughts;

    The Curse: You've a small typo, rather than success/fail for the save you have success/success, might trip you up in the heat of combat. Are you going for just Remove Curse or is there an extra clause to shake it? Any cursed loot?

    Eternal Overlord: This could fairly easily overrun the party, but it's a great ability. I'd suggest very clearly telegraphing the skeletons rebuilding and possibly not giving them any actions the turn they come back. Possibly throw in that the skeletons all collapse when the Prince dies?

    Canopic Jars: The Baboon Jar seems a little strong, I'd possibly leave Radiant unresisted or set it to only grant him Radiant resistance instead of other types.
    The main thing with this will be the arena - size, obstacles, lighting, decoy jars and placement of the skeletons will be key for this to work as you intend. Maybe throw in some spooky undead-related mist, difficult terrain, elevation and poison based traps?
    You've got three Jars granting defensive buffs and one offensive - perhaps switching for a two/two split?

    Otherwise it'll really be down to how much information (if any) the players manage to uncover. You're pretty much right on the money for your stated intent, so a lot of the fight will hinge on the design and successful exploration of the rest of the tomb. My only other thoughts really are the possible inclusion of archers, reach weapons and such if you do plan to have a large, complex battlefield. Looks like a great encounter, hope it goes well.

    Edit: Oh, when a Jar is broken, maybe throw in a clause forcing the Prince to make a save against a minor stun effect?
    Last edited by Onos; 2021-05-07 at 04:38 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2014

    Default Re: Boss Balance Input

    Prince Apophas is dangerous, certainly, but he's one creature that relies almost solely on melee attacks. If the party can slow him down or keep away from him, he's not much of a threat.

    The skeletons are a bigger threat, especially if they focus fire with their bows. Prince Apophas, at most, deals about 33 damage on his turn. The skeletons can do 66. But that's if they all hit. Against a target with AC 16, they'll still do ~30, nearly the same as a full power Prince Apophas (who would need to hit every time).

    I think the difficulty of this fight will depend much more on the skeletons and their tactics than Prince Apophas. If they focus fire and can coordinate with the Prince to target the same character, they likely drop someone in round one. If they completely spread out their fire, the fight is likely winnable.

    The difficulty of the fight could also swing wildly in the characters' favor if someone can take out all of the skeletons early. A round one fireball from an evoker could make the fight fairly easy, even against a full power Prince Apophas.


    Other advice: I'd suggest giving the Prince some sort of ranged attack. If he gets stuck in place right now, he can't do much to affect the party.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Composer99's Avatar

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    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Boss Balance Input

    I concur that Prince Apophas ought to have a ranged attack option in case the terrain is such that he can be kited.

    Also, I think the skeleton regen should occur as long as Prince Apophas isn't dead/destroyed, rather than as long as he's conscious.

    Edit to add: I think you're broadly in line with your design goals. Looks like a fun encounter!
    Last edited by Composer99; 2021-05-08 at 11:51 AM.
    ~ Composer99

    D&D 5e Campaign:
    Adventures in Eaphandra

    D&D 5e Homebrew:
    This can be found in my extended homebrew signature!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Boss Balance Input

    Well, I ran the encounter, and it really went sideways. The party triggered the fight (by touching the treasure in the tomb) without having explored much of the rest of the place, and as such had no idea about the canopic jars. What followed, unfortunately, was not a brutal, vicious TPK, but a slow, slow grind that eventually resulted in a TPK.

    I beefed up the ranged options in the fight, per some of the suggestions, by giving two of the skeletons wand attacks (DC 13 DEX save vs. 4d6 lightning damage, one creature), two of them longbows, and two of them throwing knives with 1d6 Sneak Attack. I also increased the overall number of skeletons to 14.

    A couple things went wrong. First, the party opened up by taking out a whole bunch of the skeletons, and continued taking them out throughout the fight. The skeletons had pretty crappy luck on their d6 rolls to keep getting back up, and as such their damage output ended up being quite staggered. The party also didn't really get the idea that Apophas was nigh-unkillable, (one player said later that he just assumed regeneration and magic resistance as part of the statblock when I described them) and just kept trying to focus-fire him through his regeneration and damage resistance, unsuccessfully.

    This party also had access to a key asset: a Twilight Cleric, who, early on, used Channel Divinity: Twilight Sanctuary. This feature provides a 30-foot radius aura, and when a friendly creature ends its turn in the radius, they can gain 1d6 + Cleric's level in temporary HP. That same Cleric also had Aura of Vitality cast, and, also courtesy of subclass, a no-concentration 30-foot fly speed. Even with the improved ranged damage I gave them, the skeletons couldn't effectively damage him. There was also a Druid with Cure Wounds and Healing Spirit.

    What the fight essentially turned into, then, was two sides with functionally unlimited healing endlessly whacking away at each other. Eventually the skeletons' reanimation outpaced the ability of the players to keep them down, and the fight began to turn. Eventually the Monk thought to look in the sarcophagus and began trying to destroy the jars. By that point one person was dead and the fight wound down to everyone dying, but it was too late at that point to capitalize. A fight I thought would take an hour at most ended up lasting two and a half.

    Some of this fiasco I'm inclined to put down to bad luck (bad reanimation rolls on skellies, great rolls on healing and temporary HP) or the power-creepy Twilight Cleric, but it's still clear that there were problems with my design and presentation from the get-go. Talking to the players, I clearly was not successful in communicating that this was not a fight to be won conventionally, even with descriptions of Prince Apophas regenerating and shrugging off powerful blows. I also underestimated just how much healing and damage mitigation a dedicated party can pump out, especially if the incoming damage is staggered across rounds (the skeletons were split up into initiative groups).

    Finally, the players also complained that there should have been more signposting in the dungeon before that pushing them to explore the rest of the tomb before pushing into the final treasure chamber. I still don't know if that's on them or me, to be honest. The antechamber by which they first enter the tomb features a puzzle to open the way to the main treasure chamber, and two unlocked doors leading to the wings of the dungeon containing clues and magic items. They examined the puzzle elements, and went right to solving it, without so much as checking the two doors. They solved the puzzle, opened the way to the treasure chamber, and triggered the fight.

    All told, I'm glad I ran this session with a group of friends before trying it out with a public group. I clearly need to give some of its elements a re-think, or come up with new language to communicate the intended experience.
    Last edited by Catullus64; 2021-05-10 at 09:11 AM.
    The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.

    What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.

    Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.

    Nothing is given so generously as advice.

    We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.

    -Francois, Duc de La Rochefoucauld

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Aug 2018

    Default Re: Boss Balance Input

    "Otherwise it'll really be down to how much information (if any) the players manage to uncover. You're pretty much right on the money for your stated intent, so a lot of the fight will hinge on the design and successful exploration of the rest of the tomb."

    Wow, it's almost like someone tried to warn you of the exact problem you had. If you ever design an encounter way beyond the expected CR, you really need to have something in place to guide the party to a possible solution. Like, making the boss fight at the end of the dungeon, telegraphing things like the Jars (I gather you actually had them hidden for the fight? That's exactly the opposite of how to use them if you want players to interact with them) and dropping lots of information throughout the dungeon regarding the non-standard boss. And again, this is something which the party needs for the fight, so don't hide it.

    If you're concerned about the pace of the fight, have another look at the CR guidelines. The Prince was a fight extremely stacked towards defensive CR, so of course he's going to be tanky. If you want a quick fight, build glass cannons.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Eurus's Avatar

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    Default Re: Boss Balance Input

    Oof. Call it a learning experience, I guess. When you're throwing a puzzle of any kind at a tabletop group, especially if it's also a fight, getting the players to understand that it is a puzzle is the hardest and most important part. There are a lot of D&D monsters that are just naturally extremely tough and resilient and it can be very hard to express through description alone that this one is special.

    Setting up the dungeon map so that you actually need to go through the entire dungeon to reach the boss room rather than being able to just ignore the wings and accidentally trigger the fight would definitely help, but honestly, in my experience, you want to put at least one extremely explicit warning somewhere that they can't avoid. I know, that doesn't feel as fun, but it's better than the alternative.

    For this boss, for instance, I might have a ghost of a dead adventurer pop up when the PCs start messing with the boss door and warn them. "Hey, this guy is literally unkillable, don't go in there." Then that puts the onus on the party to figure out what that means and how to work around it before going in.
    Last edited by Eurus; 2021-05-13 at 09:37 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Boss Balance Input

    In addition to other comments here, I would've given them a hint much earlier in the fight that Apophas's defenses weren't just indicative of a regular beefy monster. That resistance and regeneration would manifest differently than other monsters' defenses, so it needs special descriptive information.

    "For the third turn in a row, you watch as the few wounds you've managed to inflict on Apophas once again stitch themselves back together. Something else is going on here."

    The PCs, in-world, would intuitively realize from context clues that something was different about this enemy. Your duty as a DM is to give the players that same understanding.

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