On The Canyon's Illusions

[Squire Doodad]

So, on this page there's a list of spells that would have been in effect on Windy Canyon, presumably more than enough to stop anyone from finding the actual pyramid.
I'm not particularly familiar with most of those, so what would that kind of thing actually look like? Would it be enough to stop anyone with True Seeing and the works, or are they more stopgaps to keep wanderers and rumor-chasers out?

From what I can tell it says Mirage Arcana, Phantasmagoria, Screen, two rounds of Shifting Paths, Illustory Pit, Misdirection, False Vision, and...is that Wall of Doom? Vial of Gloom?

[brian 333]

The latter.

Had there been living guardians, the illusions that the OotS experienced in the hallways would have been enough to allow the defenders to coup de grace the heros. I presume the living members of Linear Guild had similar difficulties, but undead would have been immune, so it would have been harder for the defenders to deal with Malack.

[Yanisa]

and...is that Wall of Doom? Vial of Gloom?

Close, it's "Wall of Gloom".

Which blocks vision and doesn't have a weakness to true seeing, unlike most illusion. Also no will saves against it, or the whole "disbelieve" clause.

In general most illusion alone would annoy people, but could never stop anyone. Which is why the illusions were mostly used to hide other dangers. The defenders were aware of the limitations of their illusions, which is why hide the gate not in spells but in ordinary spell blocking lead.

The defenders had tunnels to spy on their victims and the pyramid was filled with traps. They also use summon spells and buffs in traps as defence., which shows they don't solely relied on illusion spells either. As attackers stumbled trough the illusion either the traps or the defenders got a chance to take any attackers out. And probably they had a plan B for when someone walks just trough all illusions. (Although that plan B could have been ignore any attackers and hope they fall for "your gate is in another piramide".)

Still, nothing shows they wouldn't get destroyed by a single epic lich.

[Squire Doodad]

Still, nothing shows they wouldn't get destroyed by a single epic lich.

I imagine there are a lot of illusions that work on undead, especially ones from 3rd party splatbooks, right? Plus there's the question of how strong their non-illusion magic was; if it was a group of 20 6th levelers and then 12 10-15th level Sorcerors with black dragon blood, that'd be a huge match if we assume they're not arrogant enough to think their illusions can stop everything.

Heck, they probably would have packed some anti-undead spells given both the nature of the desert (I think there's something about naturally occurring undead mummies in deserts?) and their awareness that the undead can bypass a lot of those threats.

[Yanisa]

I imagine there are a lot of illusions that work on undead, especially ones from 3rd party splatbooks, right?

Probably, but we never have seen any third party, except when Rich made it up himself. Besides that even some normal basic illusions could work on undead, depending on the type. A lot of glamer illusion only give a will save when interacted with and can work on undead, but get trumped by true sight. It's figments, patterns and phantasms that mostly don't work because they are mind-affecting. And then their are shadow illusions, which are partly real, thus could work.
Also liches are specifically immune to mind-affecting, unlike mindless undead, who are immune to mind-affecting because, well, they are mindless. I am pretty sure there are some ways of affecting mindless enemies.

Still, 3/5 of all illusions types are out, 1 gets defeated by a single spell and the last 1 is a gamble. I don't think any illusion is more then an annoyance to Xykon.

Then again I think the whole maze of illusions was always made to annoy and slow down more then to flat out kill attackers. So it could still be enough to do their job.

Plus there's the question of how strong their non-illusion magic was; if it was a group of 20 6th levelers and then 12 10-15th level Sorcerors with black dragon blood, that'd be a huge match if we assume they're not arrogant enough to think their illusions can stop everything.

True, "getting destroyed" might be an underestimating. So far at all gates Xykon experienced some resistance, and technically he got defeated twice (Lirian and Soon). Still nothing indicated they had the raw power to stop them.

I think in terms of struggling, this would be as similar to Dorukan's gate. One hard battle, then some annoying lingering spells to deal with. Probably wasting time on finding the gate, giving "PC-heroes" a chance to show up.

Heck, they probably would have packed some anti-undead spells given both the nature of the desert (I think there's something about naturally occurring undead mummies in deserts?) and their awareness that the undead can bypass a lot of those threats.

Nothing in the comics indicated this. Maybe you are confusing "natural mummification" with "becoming the undead creature mummy"? Both did happen in the comic, but the second one was magic.

Regardless, we don't see whether they were afraid or ignoring undead. The only striking thing I can think of is they "buried" a corpse right at their entrance. I don't feel you do that when you fear the undead/necromancers. Then again it is a hidden corpse...

[NerdyKris]

if we assume they're not arrogant enough to think their illusions can stop everything.

Which would be a bad assumption to make, since the gates fell because each one relied on ONE aspect of defense instead of pooling their resources together. Part of the issue with the Order of the Scribble is that they all insist their way is the best way, which resulted in a system where the guardians at the different gates couldn't sufficiently defend each other.

It's true that the fatal weakness in Girard's gate couldn't possibly have been foreseen, but it's still symbolic that his paranoia resulted in a situation where one spell wiped them all out. They absolutely were arrogant enough that they might not have considered a vampire or lich attacking them.

[Jasdoif]

From what I can tell it says Mirage Arcana, Phantasmagoria, Screen, two rounds of Shifting Paths, Illustory Pit, Misdirection, False Vision, and...is that Wall of Doom? Vial of Gloom?

• Mirage arcana disguise an area to look like something else. Its main added feature over the longer and bigger (and lower-level) hallucinatory terrain is that it can create/alter the appearance of structures, so I presume it would be used to make the open area beyond the pass appear to be some of settlement or stronghold (conveniently drawing attention away from where the actual stronghold is).
• Phantasmagoria, I would have to imagine is some variant of the major illusion guarding the Gate. The use of a non-permanent version would allow selective control of convenient passages, while still allowing the caster to dispel the effect should the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) need to go through themselves.
• Screen sends false imagery to both scrying and direct observation. I would guess this is used to disguise the entire area around the Gate chamber; so anyone who actually managed to make it that far wouldn't recognize the Gate chamber and would instead continue to look for it.
• Shifting paths makes a road look like goes somewhere else. It has an impressive radius (one mile plus one mile per caster level), so it could divert an overland force following the road quite a ways....particularly if the actual road itself doesn't go anywhere near the compound, and whoever discovers the illusory road thinks they're clever and follows the real road to its particular dead end.
• Illusory pit creates the illusion of a pit; people failing the save fall to the ground and can't do anything meaningful. Would be quite effective cast on the edge of one of the actual pit traps, so jumping over one lands you in the other.
• Misdirection gives an object divination auras from a different object, with all that entails. Could be used for all sorts of things, I suppose; if I had to guess, my first thought would be to disguise any magic traps on the entry stairs (since the weight limit on magic aura could pose problems).
• False vision disguises an area from scrying. This is probably cast on the Gate itself, so even if something happens to the screen the Gate is still disguised (and hope whoever dispelled the screen doesn't see any value in a second dispel attempt).
• Wall of gloom, at least in its original form in Complete Arcane, blocks anyone with six levels or less from passing through it unless they make a Will save; and each successive attempt puts a growing penalty on that Will save. If your opposition of the day happens to be an expansive army rather than a team of adventurers, most anywhere you choose can become a chokepoint, that conveniently clusters people in a way that doesn't block area-of-effect spells.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think Phantasmagoria is a spell ported from earlier editions, but Laurin's Wormhole apparently is and I think V used such a spell recently as well.

Either way, it seems plausible that it's not a "standard" spell. Rich did mention that casters have to research non-core spells in OotS or something like that. Can't tell what it does though.

[Mike Havran]

The Screen was very important and the casters would probably also have the surroundings of the pyramid dimensionally locked so if the defenders were alive, Xykon would not be able to just Scry&Port to the pyramid.

[danielxcutter]

He could still have 'ported close and then started blasting from the outside.

Really, as much as I know illusions are powerful, I can't help but shake the feeling that half the defenses would crumple like tinfoil in front of a True Seeing. Which still leaves the other half of course, I'm just saying that it's a bit too illusion-specialized.

[Mike Havran]

He could still have 'ported close and then started blasting from the outside.

Not that simple.

1. Xykon casts Scrying on location via ball on the coordinates he deciphered from diary.
2. Screen kicks in and shows him false location (no save)
3. Xykon teleports and either ends up in some pre-prepared trap location of Draketooths or back in his tower.

[danielxcutter]

Not that simple.

1. Xykon casts Scrying on location via ball on the coordinates he deciphered from diary.
2. Screen kicks in and shows him false location (no save)
3. Xykon teleports and either ends up in some pre-prepared trap location of Draketooths or back in his tower.

Screen merely lets the caster choose what can and can't be seen through sight and scrying. If there isn't a bigass pyramid or something at the coordinates, Xykon uses Scrying on somewhere near and 'ports there.

Seriously, Xykon isn't a complete idiot and Redcloak is even less so. "Might be warded with powerful magic" is kind of the default in situations like this.

[Jasdoif]

Really, as much as I know illusions are powerful, I can't help but shake the feeling that half the defenses would crumple like tinfoil in front of a True Seeing.

True seeing extends out to 120 feet; the large illusions are better served making the general area look not worth coming to at all, much less coming within 120 feet of anything the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) want to hide. Most people they're worried about aren't going to have accurate coordinates, after all.

[danielxcutter]

True seeing extends out to 120 feet; the large illusions are better served making the general area look not worth coming to at all, much less coming within 120 feet of anything the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) want to hide. Most people they're worried about aren't going to have accurate coordinates, after all.

Hmm, true.

[Mike Havran]

Screen merely lets the caster choose what can and can't be seen through sight and scrying. If there isn't a bigass pyramid or something at the coordinates, Xykon uses Scrying on somewhere near and 'ports there.

Seriously, Xykon isn't a complete idiot and Redcloak is even less so. "Might be warded with powerful magic" is kind of the default in situations like this.

Draketooths probably weren't complete idiots either. Screen would show a decoy pyramid/fortress that is actually located in a deathtrap two miles away or something. Xykon would probably need to spend more scryings to find a suitable teleport spot in case his Greater teleport fails, thus putting the defenders on high alert and still getting only some 100 meters from the main thing at best.

[danielxcutter]

I thought Greater Teleport doesn’t have mishaps? Could be wrong though.

Also, I think it’s still safe to say that Girard’s Gate was one of the less effective defenses against Xykon? Not useless, just that it’s relatively weaker to Xykon’s abilities and tactics, while Soon’s Gate was quite effective against him indeed. I imagine it’d be the opposite for someone like Nale, though of course the Linear Guild had far less power in general than Team Evil.

[Mike Havran]

I thought Greater Teleport doesn’t have mishaps? Could be wrong though.

Also, I think it’s still safe to say that Girard’s Gate was one of the less effective defenses against Xykon? Not useless, just that it’s relatively weaker to Xykon’s abilities and tactics, while Soon’s Gate was quite effective against him indeed. I imagine it’d be the opposite for someone like Nale, though of course the Linear Guild had far less power in general than Team Evil.

I agree that Draketooths were probably lesser challenge on the whole, although I think it depends on how many high level casters they had available.

[Squire Doodad]

I agree that Draketooths were probably lesser challenge on the whole, although I think it depends on how many high level casters they had available.

Given that each spell on the list was being cast by one person, and it's only the canyons (a lot more could have been listed for the other rooms), I think it's safe to say that they had multiple high level casters. Enough to beat Xykon, especially since most would have specialized in illusions? Not sure. But high level casters nonetheless.
This is arguably more a case of "Xykon+Redcloak are really strong" regardless of how many casters they would have had.

Nothing in the comics indicated this. Maybe you are confusing "natural mummification" with "becoming the undead creature mummy"? Both did happen in the comic, but the second one was magic.

Regardless, we don't see whether they were afraid or ignoring undead. The only striking thing I can think of is they "buried" a corpse right at their entrance. I don't feel you do that when you fear the undead/necromancers. Then again it is a hidden corpse...

I thought mummies are common choices for random encounters in the desert? I could be mistaken though.

[danielxcutter]

Given that each spell on the list was being cast by one person, and it's only the canyons (a lot more could have been listed for the other rooms), I think it's safe to say that they had multiple high level casters. Enough to beat Xykon, especially since most would have specialized in illusions? Not sure. But high level casters nonetheless.
This is arguably more a case of "Xykon+Redcloak are really strong" regardless of how many casters they would have had.

Not untrue. But I’d say someone who went about it like Nale would have more of a problem even with roughly the same “power”, and not just due to his crippling complexity addiction. Even beyond that, a lot of his threat is subterfuge and social manipulation(apologies if I misused any terms), which would be more useful in, say, Azure City and much less useful against a pyramid full of paranoid sorcerers in the middle of the desert.

By contrast, Xykon(and by extension Team Evil) is effectively a bulldozer. How that bulldozer is applied may vary, but in the end it involves ramming it into someone or something. Azure City was almost too tough to plow through - but with the focus on illusion, the pyramid may have been a different issue, at least for Team Evil.

I thought mummies are common choices for random encounters in the desert? I could be mistaken though.

In pyramids or other ruins? Probably. Don’t think you’d meet them much outside them, though.

[Jasdoif]

I thought mummies are common choices for random encounters in the desert? I could be mistaken though.

The stock list for warm desert random encounters doesn't include mummies. The sample customized random encounter list for a warm desert does have a 4% chance of being a mummy, but that would indicate mummies were common in that particular desert.

[Emmit Svenson]

... undead would have been immune.

Undead are only immune to mind-affecting illusions, aka phantasms (like Phantasmal Killer, or Weird) or patterns (like Hypnotic Pattern). They are not immune to illusions that only affect the senses, such as glamers (or Xykon would not have been fooled by V's Invisibility) or figments (or Xykon would not be fooled by the tunnel projection). Shadow illusions, being quasi-real, can affect even the inanimate.

The only spell on that list that is mind-affecting is Wall of Gloom.

[danielxcutter]

Undead are only immune to mind-effecting illusions, aka phantasms (like Phantasmal Killer, or Weird) or patterns (like Hypnotic Pattern). They are not immune to illusions that only affect the senses, such as glamers (or Xykon would not have been fooled by V's Invisibility) or figments (or Xykon would not be fooled by the tunnel projection). Shadow illusions, being quasi-real, can affect even the inanimate.

That's still immunity to some quite powerful spells, though(such as the Gate illusion), and aside from Shadow Conjuration/Evocation the rest fold in front of True Seeing like tinfoil.

[Emmit Svenson]

.... the rest fold in front of True Seeing like tinfoil.

True Seeing is a pretty hard counter to illusions. My recommendation is filling one's lairs with basilisks polymorphed into beautiful songbirds, invisible Mirrors of Opposition, and the like.

[danielxcutter]

True Seeing is a pretty hard counter to illusions. My recommendation is filling one's lairs with basilisks polymorphed into beautiful songbirds, invisible Mirrors of Opposition, and the like.

I don't want someone angrily TWFing both Player's Handbooks at me so no I think I'll pass.

[Mike Havran]

That's still immunity to some quite powerful spells, though(such as the Gate illusion), and aside from Shadow Conjuration/Evocation the rest fold in front of True Seeing like tinfoil.

I just noticed a strange thing about True Seeing vs. Meld into Stone: Redcloak obviously thought TS will help him against MiS, but if so, why didn't Tarquin with his TS ring observe Durkon in the pyramid?

[Shadowknight12]

I just noticed a strange thing about True Seeing vs. Meld into Stone: Redcloak obviously thought TS will help him against MiS, but if so, why didn't Tarquin with his TS ring observe Durkon in the pyramid?

While True Seeing states it "sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things", it also says "True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent."

So I'm going to assume Redcloak, despite being otherwise smart, just straight up made a mistake on this one.

Or, what's more likely, the Giant doesn't care whether True Seeing actually counters Meld into Stone, but wants to communicate to the reader that the OOTS won't be able to use the same trick again.

[hamishspence]

If part of the creature is on the surface of the stone, but indistinguishable from it, "disguised as stone" so to speak - then wouldn't True Seeing reveal that part?

[Shadowknight12]

If part of the creature is on the surface of the stone, but indistinguishable from it, "disguised as stone" so to speak - then wouldn't True Seeing reveal that part?

It would depend on whether there is the thinnest layer of surface between the creature and open air, because if there is, True Seeing would fail, since it cannot penetrate solid objects. If there isn't, and a part of the creature is actually touching open air (just transmuted to look like stone), then True Seeing would reveal that specific part of the surface as flesh/hair/clothes/armour, which could be as small as a fingertip.

[danielxcutter]

I think the argument is that True Seeing can see transmuted objects, and the stone hiding the caster is transmuted. Don’t have to see the cookies if you can see the cookie jar, after all.

[Shadowknight12]

I think the argument is that True Seeing can see transmuted objects, and the stone hiding the caster is transmuted. Don’t have to see the cookies if you can see the cookie jar, after all.

Well, the main issue is that the target of Meld into Stone is not the stone, but "you", so it's not really the stone being targeted by the spell and transmuted.