The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

[Shadowknight12]

Yea I know right, people who go out to do good, help people, and destroy evil before it can cause harm to innocents are just the worst how could anyone ever see such people as anything but monsters!

Indeed! Self-righteousness is quite the villainous trait!

[mjasghar]

Wrt Gygax I’ve mentioned it elsewhere that I feel he went bitter over stuff that happened (mostly imho his own fault) and ended up spending most of his time trolling people

[Demon Prince]

Spoiler

Show

Acres of virtual forum space have been taken up. Threads have been locked. Warnings have been issued to forum posters when they started comparing it to real-world history and politics. And yet the topic keeps coming up again and again: "What was the deal with the Sapphire Guard massacring Redcloak's village during Start of Darkness?" Or more accurately, "How did they do that and keep paladin status?"

This post is a little spoiler-y, but I've tried to be vague enough to avoid completely spoiling the plots of Start of Darkness and How the Paladin Got His Scar. They are both well worth a read.

The Rules:

In other words, a paladin can't do anything evil and remain a paladin. This gives a storyteller obvious problems if he tries to use paladins as his villains.

Who decides when a paladin "willfully commits an evil act"? Not the paladin's gods, because "A paladin need not devote herself to a single deity—devotion to righteousness is enough," and the rule about "no evil actions" still applies to non-religious paladins.

That means it's ultimately up to the Dungeon Master. Or, if we're reading a webcomic that runs on D&D rules, the author of the webcomic.

In the case of Redcloak's village, we have a problem. As presented, the goblins were minding their own business when a raiding party of the Sapphire Guard, made up of mostly paladins with some clerics, charged in and started killing them all, including obvious non-combatants like the older goblins, the women, and the children. The paladins' stated reason for attacking is that the twelve gods had judged the goblins as evil and one of them threatened the existence of the world (obviously a reference to the goblin high priest, who was in the village, and "The Plan"). The paladins were without mercy, killing every goblin they could find, and some of them appeared to be enjoying the experience.
Most importantly, no paladin is shown to "fall" from paladinhood and lose their paladin abilities from participating in the massacre.

So, given that:
1. Killing defenseless children is an evil act.
2. Paladins cannot commit an evil act without falling from Paladin status.
3. NONE of the paladins shown killing goblin children are shown to have fallen.
This paradox is what has driven the arguments.
We are left with three possibilities:
A) It wasn't an evil action to kill those goblin children.
B) the paladins who killed the goblin children did all fall, we just didn't see it.
C) These paladins don't fall if they commit evil acts. In other words, they don't follow the normal paladin rules.
Some forum members have argued A). Other forum members have immediatly called them monsters for trying to find ways to call children "evil". Some forum members have argued B). I have seen very few forum members arguing C).

The Giant has stated in forum posts that the goblin children were innocents and that killing them was an evil act, which means he didn't intend A) to be a possibility. He has also said that he could have shown the paladins falling, but it would have de-railed the narrative to show it. He said that he's leaving it up to the readers to decide which paladins fell. As far as I know, he has not said anything that supports C).
So the Giant's answer is essentially B).

There is, however, a problem with the "they fell, we just didn't see it" theory:

How The Paladin Got His Scar is a prequel to the main comic, but also a partial sequel to Start of Darkness. The villain is a paladin, and he reveals that he participated in the massacre of Redcloak's village and other attacks on goblins afterwards. In the course of the story it becomes obvious that he is motivated mostly by anti-goblin racism. There is no sign that he or any of the other paladins with him had to atone for the massacre of Redcloak's village. Or any of the off-panel attacks on goblins they mention.

Spoiler

Show

In the end he is defeated when his followers see what his motivations really are, but notably he never falls from paladinhoopd on-panel. The only paladin we've ever seen fall on-panel is Miko.

So, should we conclude that this villain didn't kill any of the goblin children personally and therefore wasn't evil enough to fall when he participated in the massacre of Redcloak's village? Or that he did fall but successfully atoned without actually changing his hatred of goblins?
Or is C) the correct answer after all? Paladins in the comic don't always fall when they commit evil actions?

Another option could hinge on the "willfully" part of it. If the Paladins were somehow misinformed about goblins and thought they were indeed Always Evil monsters with no moral value, maybe it could be argued that they acted as a Good-aligned person would act in the situation they thought they were in, and so they wouldn't fall?

Also, since we know the gods define what counts as a good act for their Paladins, and as we know from more recent panels goblins were intended as XP farms, this might be the basis for an option C.

[Dion]

In this universe, an act is evil only if the gods say it’s evil.

In this universe, no god has said that killing goblins children is evil.

Therefore killing goblin children is not evil in this universe, and paladins are allowed to do it

QED

[mjasghar]

Except recent panels have said goblins weren’t created as XP farms - they were abandoned by the god who set their nature. They are XP sources only in the same way as every being.

[Dion]

Except recent panels have said goblins weren’t created as XP farms - they were abandoned by the god who set their nature. They are XP sources only in the same way as every being.

Yes, and both mice and cats are technically food.

This does not mean that cats don’t eat mice.

[Keltest]

Yes, and both mice and cats are technically food.

This does not mean that cats don’t eat mice.

Nor does it mean that cats are evil for eating mice. (Theyre evil for unrelated reasons, like trying to sleep on my face at 3 AM, but thats beside the point.)

[Dion]

Nor does it mean that cats are evil for eating mice. (Theyre evil for unrelated reasons, like trying to sleep on my face at 3 AM, but thats beside the point.)

But for some reason, no matter how many times people patiently explain to the mice that being eaten by cats is perfectly natural and not in any way evil, the mice still seem to be upset about it.

[Keltest]

But for some reason, no matter how many times people patiently explain to the mice that being eaten by cats is perfectly natural and not in any way evil, the mice still seem to be upset about it.

What, exactly, is your point? That carnivores shouldnt be allowed to exist? That any society that isnt post-scarcity is automatically a problem and should be destroyed?

[Dion]

What, exactly, is your point? That carnivores shouldnt be allowed to exist? That any society that isnt post-scarcity is automatically a problem and should be destroyed?

My point is that it he goblins are in an undesirable position on the XP food chain,

No matter how many times Thor says “it wasn’t on purpose” or “everyone is on the food chain”, the underlying facts don’t change.

The goblins are on an undesirable part of the XP food chain, and they’re unhappy about it, and they’re going to change the food chain in any way they possibly can.

That seems to be the theme of the comic as I read it, anyhow.

[Vahnavoi]

As someone who was taught that food is sacred, I'm perpetually confused and amused by people who think that being food to something is a negative statement of worth.

Like, it's perfectly possible to imagine Bright One and Bluecloak who, after learning they exist to provide XP to the chosen ones, are overjoyed to learn they have function in the Big Plan. It's perfectly possible to imagine Bluecloak leading an army of hobgoblins against Azure City while crying tears of joy and thinking "This is it. This is me fulfilling my purpose. I am their divinely-appointed adversary! I am the scourge of the gods!"

[Keltest]

My point is that it he goblins are in an undesirable position on the XP food chain,

No matter how many times Thor says “it wasn’t on purpose” or “everyone is on the food chain”, the underlying facts don’t change.

The goblins are on an undesirable part of the XP food chain, and they’re unhappy about it, and they’re going to change the food chain in any way they possibly can.

That seems to be the theme of the comic as I read it, anyhow.

All the in-comic evidence indicates that if its undesirable, its because they themselves are the ones who made it undesirable. We have seen exactly 0 goblin towns that were shown to avoid picking fights with their neighbors who still ended up having issues with quality land or being attacked. The Hobgoblins were able to, from a single city, muster a standing army twice the size of that of the entire kingdom of France during the Hundred Year's War! That doesnt speak to massive resource issues, that speaks to the hobgoblins being one of the most powerful and prosperous races on the continent.

[Dion]

All the in-comic evidence indicates that if its undesirable, its because they themselves are the ones who made it undesirable.

I have not read the comic in that way.

[brian 333]

Paladin A rules a land where it is taught that singing and dancing are evil and that people are required to work 12 hours each day and pray 4 hours. Anyone who tries to escape are hunted down and brought back because a good shepherd doesn't allow his lambs to get lost.

Paladin B lives next door and rescues those from Kingdom A who flee oppression and enslavement. That they will inevitably come into conflict is almost guaranteed.

Which one is evil?

[Keltest]

I have not read the comic in that way.

I can tell. But the facts we have been given pretty firmly support the goblins (Or at least, the ones who follow the teachings of the Dark One) being the only cause of the problems here.

[hroþila]

All the in-comic evidence indicates that if its undesirable, its because they themselves are the ones who made it undesirable. We have seen exactly 0 goblin towns that were shown to avoid picking fights with their neighbors who still ended up having issues with quality land or being attacked. The Hobgoblins were able to, from a single city, muster a standing army twice the size of that of the entire kingdom of France during the Hundred Year's War! That doesnt speak to massive resource issues, that speaks to the hobgoblins being one of the most powerful and prosperous races on the continent.

The real-world comparison doesn't tell us much, and there have been many, many big armies made up of piss-poor people that were promptly swatted aside by better equipped and more professional forces. We don't know that the hobgoblins have a true standing army either, they seem to be more of a warrior society where most people have some military training and can serve if necessary (otherwise it wouldn't make any economic sense for Redcloak to have mobilized such a large percentage of their population). Your point that they were one of the most powerful and prosperous races on the continent even before Redcloak showed up is based on extremely thin evidence and goes against other in-comic evidence about their lands being poor and their being bottled up in poor lands by the Azurite military in the case of the hobgoblins and the dwarves in the case of the bugbears.

The hobgoblin tribe that took Azure City lived in peace for ~10 years if memory serves before they were attacked by the Sapphire Guard.

[Keltest]

The real-world comparison doesn't tell us much, and there have been many, many big armies made up of piss-poor people that were promptly swatted aside by better equipped and more professional forces. We don't know that the hobgoblins have a true standing army either, they seem to be more of a warrior society where most people have some military training and can serve if necessary (otherwise it wouldn't make any economic sense for Redcloak to have mobilized such a large percentage of their population). Your point that they were one of the most powerful and prosperous races on the continent even before Redcloak showed up is based on extremely thin evidence and goes against other in-comic evidence about their lands being poor and their being bottled up in poor lands by the Azurite military in the case of the hobgoblins and the dwarves in the case of the bugbears.

The hobgoblin tribe that took Azure City lived in peace for ~10 years if memory serves before they were attacked by the Sapphire Guard.

IIRC, the Hobgoblins moved where they were when Redcloak found them voluntarily. The Azurites werent keeping them there, they chose to be there. And hey, look at that, they mustered an army that conquered Azure City in a single day, without a siege. Clearly they were doing pretty well for themselves. Likewise, the Bugbears by their own admission like it up at the north pole. They have Monster Hollow which gives them everything they need. They dont want to move to Gobbotopia, thats just a bunch of goblins and hobgoblins trying to use their presence to push a pan-goblinoid narrative that does little to bring them any extra benefit or resource that they dont already possess from where they live. The Dwarves dont bother them out there, they have plenty of food, lots of free space to roam around and exercise their giant flying pets...

Its not at all a coincidence that every single time Redcloak encounters a group of goblinoids, they have no problems with the other races or their situation until he shows up and creates a problem.

[Worldsong]

What, exactly, is your point? That carnivores shouldnt be allowed to exist? That any society that isnt post-scarcity is automatically a problem and should be destroyed?

The point is that while food chains may exist but it's probably a bad idea to have one sapient race be the food of another sapient race.

If goblinoids weren't sapient there would be no problem. However, they are sapient, so it's a problem.

The problem isn't cats eating mice, it's one group of people eating another group of people.

[Keltest]

The point is that while food chains may exist but it's probably a bad idea to have one sapient race be the food of another sapient race.

If goblinoids weren't sapient there would be no problem. However, they are sapient, so it's a problem.

The problem isn't cats eating mice, it's one group of people eating another group of people.

So the problem is the absence of a post-scarcity world then? Because thats the only way to stop groups competing for resources.

[Worldsong]

So the problem is the absence of a post-scarcity world then? Because thats the only way to stop groups competing for resources.

No, it's that one group of people is systematically treating another group as nothing more than a source of nutrition (XP). You could compare it to slavery, and you don't need post-scarcity to stop slavery either.

[Jason]

In this universe, an act is evil only if the gods say it’s evil.

If this is really the case in the Stickverse, I note that it's not the case in a game of D&D. In D&D the gods actually have less control over what is good or evil than the players do. The rules and the DM determine what is evil and what is good, and the DM can only go as far as the players continue to come and play.

We have only seen one paladin fall on-panel in this comic. An interesting question might be "what specific violation caused her to fall?" It appears to me that it wasn't "refusing to act with honor" or "refusing to help those in need" or "refusing to punish those who harm or threaten innocents". Miko's violation seems to have been that she didn't "respect legitimate authority". That is, she fell for committing a chaotic action rather than an evil action. That suggests the Twelve gods as a whole are more concerned with their paladins being lawful than good.

[Keltest]

No, it's that one group of people is systematically treating another group as nothing more than a source of nutrition (XP). You could compare it to slavery, and you don't need post-scarcity to stop slavery either.

There is no evidence that that is actually occurring besides the word of one individual who A: has been shown to be wrong in the past regarding this particular topic and B: has great personal incentive to maintain this narrative in spite of all evidence to the contrary to push his personal agendas.

If nothing else, that logic falls flat really fast when you consider that the number of PCs in a world is going to be within the single digits, and PCs are the only ones who level up by killing monsters. Even if you expand that to NPCs with PC class levels, youre still looking at a fraction of a percent of the total population of a given group.

[Worldsong]

If this is really the case in the Stickverse, I note that it's not the case in a game of D&D. In D&D the gods actually have less control over what is good or evil than the players do. The rules and the DM determine what is evil and what is good, and the DM can only go as far as the players continue to come and play.

We have only seen one paladin fall on-panel in this comic. An interesting question might be "what specific violation caused her to fall?" It appears to me that it wasn't "refusing to act with honor" or "refusing to help those in need" or "refusing to punish those who harm or threaten innocents". Miko's violation seems to have been that she didn't "respect legitimate authority". That is, she fell for committing a chaotic action rather than an evil action. That suggests the Twelve gods as a whole are more concerned with their paladins being lawful than good.

I'm pretty sure the Twelve Gods would consider killing an unarmed old man who's both your superior and not an immediate threat both Chaotic and Evil. Especially since Miko's basis for doing so was a completely unfounded accusation of Evilness so it probably counts as killing an innocent person as well since she didn't have evidence of him actually committing any crimes or wrongdoings.

There is no evidence that that is actually occurring besides the word of one individual who A: has been shown to be wrong in the past regarding this particular topic and B: has great personal incentive to maintain this narrative in spite of all evidence to the contrary to push his personal agendas.

If nothing else, that logic falls flat really fast when you consider that the number of PCs in a world is going to be within the single digits, and PCs are the only ones who level up by killing monsters. Even if you expand that to NPCs with PC class levels, youre still looking at a fraction of a percent of the total population of a given group.

And a deity. And the author. And the fact nobody inside the comic has even tried to refute it when they heard of it. At best they've tried to justify it or claimed they're not personally part of it. Durkon asked Redcloak about it, and then asked Thor about what Redcloak said, and Thor's answer was basically "That's basically the situation, except we didn't make it happen this way on purpose."

That said I'm not going to actually argue this because the angle of "The goblinoids have nothing to complain about and all their suffering is self-inflicted" has been covered many, many times and it's gotten stale. If you insist on pursuing that path anyway it's better if we just go our separate ways.

[Ionathus]

IIRC, the Hobgoblins moved where they were when Redcloak found them voluntarily. The Azurites werent keeping them there, they chose to be there. And hey, look at that, they mustered an army that conquered Azure City in a single day, without a siege. Clearly they were doing pretty well for themselves. Likewise, the Bugbears by their own admission like it up at the north pole. They have Monster Hollow which gives them everything they need. They dont want to move to Gobbotopia, thats just a bunch of goblins and hobgoblins trying to use their presence to push a pan-goblinoid narrative that does little to bring them any extra benefit or resource that they dont already possess from where they live. The Dwarves dont bother them out there, they have plenty of food, lots of free space to roam around and exercise their giant flying pets...

Its not at all a coincidence that every single time Redcloak encounters a group of goblinoids, they have no problems with the other races or their situation until he shows up and creates a problem.

(Emphasis mine)

I am sick of pointing this out, but people keep bringing it up: the hobgoblins ONLY stood a chance against the Azurites because Shojo's death and Redcloak and Xykon's strike-team shenanigans tipped the scales in a massive way.

1. Shojo died and threw the noble class and peasant morale into chaos.
2. RC & Big X took out multiple early-warning outposts.
3. Redcloak launched Titanium Elementals that destroyed the walls far more effectively than boulders would've, and from further away too.
4. RC & Big X summoned or created loads of high-level undead and Outsiders.
5. The threat of RC & Big X taking the throne room meant the entire SG had to abstain from the battle, removing squadron leaders, healers, buffers, undead turners, even magical blasters.
6. RC & Big X's approach of "throw soldiers at it until we have a ramp of corpses" is pretty clearly not the hobgoblins' style (as shown by the other hobgoblin general being very concerned at it). Even if that strategy breaches the walls, the hobgoblins might not do it since they see their soldiers as, y'know, people, rather than disposable pawns.

Take away Redcloak as an amoral leader and high-level magic user, and the hobgoblins very much do not have the strength to take Azure City the mundane way -- or if they did, at too great a cost to justify. You are looking at the hobgoblins as the major contributing factor to the battle, and while they were certainly capable fighters, nobody in the comic treats the hobgoblins as the biggest threat: they all talk about taking down Redcloak, Xykon, or the supernatural horrors they conjure. Multiple things had to go very wrong before the hobgoblins stood a chance. They were the minions, ever since RC killed what he thought was the previous Supreme Leader.

[Jason]

There is no evidence that that is actually occurring besides the word of one individual who A: has been shown to be wrong in the past regarding this particular topic and B: has great personal incentive to maintain this narrative in spite of all evidence to the contrary to push his personal agendas.

With the latest comics that is no longer the case. Thor, Durkon, and Roy have all now agreed with Redcloak that the goblins are generally being mistreated. Given that both sides now agree, we as the audience must accept that it's probably true.

If nothing else, that logic falls flat really fast when you consider that the number of PCs in a world is going to be within the single digits, and PCs are the only ones who level up by killing monsters. Even if you expand that to NPCs with PC class levels, youre still looking at a fraction of a percent of the total population of a given group.

This is also not the case. Redcloak and Xykon are both NPCs and have confirmed that they gained experience and levels over the course of the comic. Thor didn't say "only PCs gain XP," he said that everyone can gain XP.

[Keltest]

(Emphasis mine)

I am sick of pointing this out, but people keep bringing it up: the hobgoblins ONLY stood a chance against the Azurites because Shojo's death and Redcloak and Xykon's strike-team shenanigans tipped the scales in a massive way.

1. Shojo died and threw the noble class and peasant morale into chaos.
2. RC & Big X took out multiple early-warning outposts.
3. Redcloak launched Titanium Elementals that destroyed the walls far more effectively than boulders would've, and from further away too.
4. RC & Big X summoned or created loads of high-level undead and Outsiders.
5. The threat of RC & Big X taking the throne room meant the entire SG had to abstain from the battle, removing squadron leaders, healers, buffers, undead turners, even magical blasters.
6. RC & Big X's approach of "throw soldiers at it until we have a ramp of corpses" is pretty clearly not the hobgoblins' style (as shown by the other hobgoblin general being very concerned at it). Even if that strategy breaches the walls, the hobgoblins might not do it since they see their soldiers as, y'know, people, rather than disposable pawns.

Take away Redcloak as an amoral leader and high-level magic user, and the hobgoblins very much do not have the strength to take Azure City the mundane way -- or if they did, at too great a cost to justify. You are looking at the hobgoblins as the major contributing factor to the battle, and while they were certainly capable fighters, nobody in the comic treats the hobgoblins as the biggest threat: they all talk about taking down Redcloak, Xykon, or the supernatural horrors they conjure.

Multiple things had to go very wrong before the hobgoblins stood a chance. They were the minions, ever since RC killed what he thought was the previous Supreme Leader.

Redcloak deliberately used his troops in the most inefficient way possible for most of the battle, and the hobgoblins suffered as much damage from "friendly" mismanagement as they did from enemy tactics. And you know what? The Azurites still lost, handily. That would indicate an incredibly overwhelming amount of force from the Hobgoblins.

This is also not the case. Redcloak and Xykon are both NPCs and have confirmed that they gained experience and levels over the course of the comic. Thor didn't say "only PCs gain XP," he said that everyone can gain XP.

If your argument is that Joe the Baker is running around mountains in his spare time looking for a goblin to stab so he can advance to level 2 commoner, i find that i have no interest in conversing with you anymore.

[Metastachydium]

If nothing else, that logic falls flat really fast when you consider that the number of PCs in a world is going to be within the single digits, and PCs are the only ones who level up by killing monsters. Even if you expand that to NPCs with PC class levels, youre still looking at a fraction of a percent of the total population of a given group.

This counterargument does not work for the simple reason that 1. the gods create these worlds to produce food for themselves; 2. the higher level a soul, the juicier it is; 3. so if thee system only allows reaching high levels for a group numbering in the single difgits, their efforts are in vain and their „ecosystem” doesn't serve any useful purpose.

Redcloak deliberately used his troops in the most inefficient way possible for most of the battle, and the hobgoblins suffered as much damage from "friendly" mismanagement as they did from enemy tactics. And you know what? The Azurites still lost, handily. That would indicate an incredibly overwhelming amount of force from the Hobgoblins.

They only really started winning handily rather than dying in droves when Redcloak decided that he'll employ tactics that actually work. Until then, the Azurites were shown to be able to contain them on all fronts, and if it wasn't for the death knight oneshoting the elite soldiers or the elementals tearing up the walls, they would have done even worse.

[Keltest]

This counterargument does not work for the simple reason that 1. the gods create these worlds to produce food for themselves; 2. the higher level a soul, the juicier it is; 3. so a system that only allows reaching high levels for a group numbering in the single difgits, their efforts are in vain and their „ecosystem” doesn't serve any useful purpose.

most NPCs gain xp and levels through research, study and generally just doing their day to day lives. A 3rd level warrior got to 3rd level by sparring with his partner and friend every week for years on end, not by going out and hunting goblins. Its only people that the plot happens to who gain XP like that. This assumption is even built into 3.5.

[Metastachydium]

most NPCs gain xp and levels through research, study and generally just doing their day to day lives. A 3rd level warrior got to 3rd level by sparring with his partner and friend every week for years on end, not by going out and hunting goblins. Its only people that the plot happens to who gain XP like that. This assumption is even built into 3.5.

Again, apparently that's not the case in the Stickverse, because if it is, the gods are ether incredibly dumb (for creating a system that does nothing) or incredibly shady (for creating a cruel system they know to do nothing). That the system is in place is explicitly confirmed by Thor so I see little point in arguing whether it exists or not.

[Jason]

If your argument is that Joe the Baker is running around mountains in his spare time looking for a goblin to stab so he can advance to level 2 commoner, i find that i have no interest in conversing with you anymore.

No, I'm just pointing out that it's not the case that only PCs gain XP and levels by killing folks. The NPC bad guys do too.