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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    But which society are we talking about? When discussing a work of fiction, at least three matter: society of the author, society of the audience and society described in the work. None of these need to be harmonious with each other, nor are they ever guaranteed to be so, so even in case of a fairly simple work there can be three different evaluations of heroism of a single character. [...]

    Failure to acknowledge this is, in general, the problem in using and interpreting works with specific moral frameworks [...]
    I really enjoyed this post.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I really enjoyed this post.
    Well it's good to know someone did.

    Reading it myself, I realize I forgot to talk about different combinations of protagonism and heroism. Not that there would've been much that isn't fairly obvious.

  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    These two positions are being held simultaneously by many:

    "Just because large swaths of goblin society do participate in raiding, we cant judge all goblins like that! Attacks against the goblinoids are unjustified! Systemic racism!"

    "The PC races tacitly condone the existence of a tiny handful of aberrant adventurers going out and killing people! Clearly all the PC races are directly complicit in this! This is proof of systemic racism!"
    Context matters quite a bit. A person that kills out of self-defence is judged differently than one who slays unprovoked. You may think of them both as equal killers who should receive the same judgment and that's fine, that's your personal opinion, but keep in mind many others will not agree with it.

    Likewise, people see one large group that exists comfortably with great resources, with a subgroup using their advantages to harm and oppress others, while another group lacks these resources, receives this harm and oppression, and attempts to fight back with a subgroup of its own. Additionally, the latter group obtaining a victory on the former isn't proof that they were both equal all along, but a temporary and fragile turn of the tables that could easily collapse back into the status quo if left unattended.

    This context creates an imbalance of power that changes the way people see both groups. To me, trying to say "both sides have their flaws" is ignoring the context presented in the story and trying to force a balance to exist that isn't in the text.
    Last edited by Shadowknight12; 2021-05-11 at 01:40 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #214
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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Paladin A rules a land where it is taught that singing and dancing are evil and that people are required to work 12 hours each day and pray 4 hours. Anyone who tries to escape are hunted down and brought back because a good shepherd doesn't allow his lambs to get lost.

    Paladin B lives next door and rescues those from Kingdom A who flee oppression and enslavement. That they will inevitably come into conflict is almost guaranteed.

    Which one is evil?
    The closest d&d example is the Harmonium who set up re education camps on Arcadia for evil beings.
    The nature of the camps resulted in the layer of Arcadia shifting from LG/LN to pure LN because of the low level evil involved.
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

  5. - Top - End - #215
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Well it's good to know someone did.

    Reading it myself, I realize I forgot to talk about different combinations of protagonism and heroism. Not that there would've been much that isn't fairly obvious.
    When I read your post I thought about Huckleberry Finn.

    I don’t think Mark Twain could have been any more obvious about his views on slavery, unless he wrote a one page book that simply said “SLAVERY BAD” in four inch tall letters.

    But yet here we are 150 years later and many people are still not quite sure what Twain was trying to tell us when Huck Finn has a moral crisis about stealing $800 of property from Miss Watson.

    So I’m not surprised we’re having trouble with this comic.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-05-11 at 05:11 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    But yet here we are 150 years later and many people are still not quite sure what Twain was trying to tell us when Huck Finn has a moral crisis about stealing $800 of property from Miss Watson.
    Maybe if they haven't read the book. As you said, it's pretty obvious.

  7. - Top - End - #217
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    I think it’s more that certain communities can’t get the idea that being proud of the good things about your culture doesn’t mean you can’t acknowledge the bad stuff your culture did. And that extends to cultures you admire when it comes to slavery especially.
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Can't comment on that particular example, it's been so long since I've read any Mark Twain that I've forgotten all about it.

    However, for a famous example from comics, there's Rorschach from Alan Moore's Watchmen. Clearly intended as an anti-hero and portrayed as such in the story, some readers still think he is a hero.

  9. - Top - End - #219
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    However, for a famous example from comics, there's Rorschach from Alan Moore's Watchmen. Clearly intended as an anti-hero and portrayed as such in the story, some readers still think he is a hero.
    Remember, you yourself said there are three value systems at play. Alan Moore wrote Rorschach as a fascist, and Alan Moore clearly believes that fascism is not a positive value.

    But Alan Moore’s readers are free to have their own opinions of fascism, and treat Rorschach as a hero if they think fascism is a virtue.

    Same thing is true of other similar characters, like The Punisher.

    I’d even argue that in the value systems of his world, a fascist characters like Judge Dredd is a paladin.

    (Admittedly, all I know about Judge Dredd is the recent movie.)
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-05-12 at 09:10 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #220
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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Rorshach's no fascist. He's a moral absolutist, he's a racist, he's a right-winger, he's an atheist, he's a conspiracy theorist, and he's obsessed to the point of being crazy, but he's not what I would call a fascist.
    Lawful in alignment, certainly, but lawful neutral or possibly even lawful evil because of his ruthlessness towards people he identifies as criminals.

    Spoiler
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    The big question in Watchmen - will you accept a lie that cost the lives of two million if it prevents a war that will cost the lives of billions? - is one a paladin might have a hard time grappling with. Ultimately I think they would have to decide that the villain's plan doesn't ensure that there will be no future war, but did kill millions of people, that the villain had no right to make world-changing decisions by himself, and that if a civilization needs a lie to prevent it from destroying itself then maybe humanity is better off without this particular civilization, even if it means nuclear war.

  11. - Top - End - #221
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Rorshach's no fascist.
    He’s called a fascist by other characters in comic.

  12. - Top - End - #222
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    He’s called a fascist by other characters in comic.
    Lots of characters get called unpleasant things by other characters in Watchmen. It doesn't mean they're accurate.

  13. - Top - End - #223
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Lots of characters get called unpleasant things by other characters in Watchmen. It doesn't mean they're accurate.
    At any rate, no matter what Rorschach was, the author appears to personally despise his values, and decided to write about a society with values that put him in prison and then ultimately vaporized him.

    And yet to many readers, his values are their values, regardless of the label you choose to put on him.

    So, yeah... at least three views of social values, as we were discussing.

    But ultimately neither Huck Finn nor Rorschach are paladins in their societies, so they’re probably not the best examples for this thread.

    Judge Dredd and The Punisher may be paladins in their societies, and yet the values of those societies, and the values of the characters, are abhorrent to the authors and the majority of readers.
    Last edited by Dion; 2021-05-12 at 10:14 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #224
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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I’d even argue that in the value systems of his world, a fascist characters like Judge Dredd is a paladin.

    (Admittedly, all I know about Judge Dredd is the recent movie.)
    You aren't the first one to argue this. I've been on a two hour discussion panel where a roleplayer made and explained this argument at length. And both me and them certainly read the comics.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    I'm reminded of Orwell: "It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless...almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’."
    I prefer to just use "bully", and Rorshach is both a bully and a victim over the course of the comic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    At any rate, no matter what Rorschach was, the author appears to personally despise his values, and decided to write about a society with values that put him in prison and then ultimately vaporized him.
    Yes, I would agree that Moore did not see Rorshach as a hero and did not agree with his values. After all, he had all of the other characters make the opposite choice in the end.

    And yet to many readers, his values are their values, regardless of the label you choose.
    Some of his values. I don't think many readers identify with all of them. They tend to forget the aspects of Rorshach they don't like when arguing on his behalf. Having a respect for the truth and refusing to compromise can certainly be virtues. His asexuality and complete lack of personal hygiene are generally not championed even by his proponents.
    Last edited by Jason; 2021-05-12 at 10:18 AM.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    People and groups often tend to be holier than thou about opinions and often they don't believe in nuance.

    Like for example in a cult classic game Drakengard, the cast is faced by an army with child soldiers (who are corrupted) and the main character slaughters them like every other soldier. Most of the characters in the party (aside from the psychotic one) attempt to shame and chastise the main character for doing so even when it's common knowledge that those soldiers have been butchering without mercy themselves and have no desire to stop and the only way to actually stop them is basically to end their threat by destroying the entire roots along with the rest of the tree.

    Often fictional games and people, push a single viewpoint and not agreeing with them makes them see you as an unequal foe (the blades from Skyrim, a lot of characters from modern superhero comics and the government in My Hero academia).

  17. - Top - End - #227
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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    This is what happens when you try to apply a rulebook to ethics. It doesn't work. No set of rules can define ethical behavior in all circumstances. ITs one of those know it when I see it things. Hinjo and Shojo are good. Redcloak is evil. As a DM I would have had Miko fall, and I would have had any paladin who killed a shield on purpose at Redcloaks village fall, but not the ones who killed the High Priest and his underlings. Do I have any rules to back those things up? Nope, don't need 'em. My players would have agreed with me.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skull the Troll View Post
    This is what happens when you try to apply a rulebook to ethics. It doesn't work. No set of rules can define ethical behavior in all circumstances. ITs one of those know it when I see it things. Hinjo and Shojo are good. Redcloak is evil. As a DM I would have had Miko fall, and I would have had any paladin who killed a shield on purpose at Redcloaks village fall, but not the ones who killed the High Priest and his underlings. Do I have any rules to back those things up? Nope, don't need 'em. My players would have agreed with me.
    Well that is the advantage of tabletop RPGs: There is a living human running things who can decide these sorts of things.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan360 View Post

    Like for example in a cult classic game Drakengard, the cast is faced by an army with child soldiers (who are corrupted) and the main character slaughters them like every other soldier. Most of the characters in the party (aside from the psychotic one) attempt to shame and chastise the main character for doing so even when it's common knowledge that those soldiers have been butchering without mercy themselves and have no desire to stop and the only way to actually stop them is basically to end their threat by destroying the entire roots along with the rest of the tree.
    To be fair, everything about Drakengard is rather messed up, especially the canon ending. It's not exactly a good example of the typical rpg experience.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Taevyr View Post
    To be fair, everything about Drakengard is rather messed up, especially the canon ending. It's not exactly a good example of the typical rpg experience.
    Everything by that game director is messed up but I was mainly referencing how in a lot of fiction, they seem to have a one side view towards harming children even in warfare, where they are actively killing others.

    I just couldn't think about a different a different example aside from potentially the Metal Gear Solid franchise.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Paladin A rules a land where it is taught that singing and dancing are evil and that people are required to work 12 hours each day and pray 4 hours. Anyone who tries to escape are hunted down and brought back because a good shepherd doesn't allow his lambs to get lost.

    Paladin B lives next door and rescues those from Kingdom A who flee oppression and enslavement. That they will inevitably come into conflict is almost guaranteed.

    Which one is evil?
    Well, one of them can exist by a cursory reading of D&D rules and the other cannot, so...it must be Paladin B, the existent one.

    (One day, I will understand why people think "Good doesn't have to actually mean anything if you don't want it to" is a profound observation. The preceding statement is a lie.)

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Well, one of them can exist by a cursory reading of D&D rules and the other cannot, so...it must be Paladin B, the existent one.

    (One day, I will understand why people think "Good doesn't have to actually mean anything if you don't want it to" is a profound observation. The preceding statement is a lie.)
    Exactly. In D&D it is possible to empirically determine whether specific actions will shift your alignment towards evil, because there are spells to detect evil. For paladins there is an easy way to determine if singing and dancing is evil: use your detect evil power before and after someone dances or sings. If you don't get an evil reading then that behavior wasn't evil.

    To have a group of paladins set up a tyrannical state that tries to force people to be good is impossible. Trying to do so would cause the paladins to fall. This is because, somewhat paradoxically, lawful good behavior requires allowing free will (it falls under "respect for the dignity of sentient beings"). Lawful neutrals can talk about the evils of free will, but lawful goods must allow it, or they will find they are no longer good.

    Edit: Lawful Good behavior also requires not causing suffering to innocents. If you are the enforcer for a tyrannical government that causes the innocent to suffer you can't also be a paladin.
    Last edited by Jason; 2021-05-14 at 10:09 AM.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Both can exist under D&D rules.

    Conformity to a community standard is a lawful trait, as is mandating that others also conform. If such conformity is intended to benefit everyone and refusal to conform reduces the benefit available to all, then it is also good. If a member of the community flees, not only does this take away the benefit he provided to the community but it takes away the benefits the community provides him, and thus it is necessary that the confused one be brought back so he can be reeducated and learn to love his place in the community.

    Freedom, even of thought, is a chaotic trait.

    Paladin A, motivated by the idea that the good of the many is the highest goal, is justified in imposing conformity upon all.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Whether paladin A can exist or not in DnD rules somewhat depends on how one interprets the rules. A DM or writer could create a scenario in which a Lawful Good deity is trying to create an army of Good to fight against Evil and to that end is telling their followers, most of which being paladins, to create an empire of Good where worship of said deity is mandatory (to ensure more soldiers for their army of Good) and all laws have to be strictly followed with draconian punishments for those who fail to do so to prevent Evil and Chaos corrupting the empire.

    One person could say that this empire is actually Lawful Neutral because it's basically a system for churning out fodder for the war machine, but another could say that a Lawful Good empire doesn't require freedom of religion and that the rules are harsh but fair, with the soldiers being devoted to a Good cause (namely, the elimination of Evil).

    EDIT:
    And yes, such an empire could then make frivolous activities such as singing and dancing illegal and require the people living there to spend most of their time working and praying for the sake of strengthening the empire and spreading the faith. The fight against Evil requires devotion and dedication, after all.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    For paladins there is an easy way to determine if singing and dancing is evil: use your detect evil power before and after someone dances or sings. If you don't get an evil reading then that behavior wasn't evil.
    Detect Evil, at least in 3.0 to 3.5, isn't that good at fine detail. You can have a Neutral character who commits a technically evil theft (their victim could reasonably be described as "the needy" and there's no alignment change after the theft - because it requires more than one evil act to change alignment - it requires repeatedly committing Evil acts to change a character's alignment.
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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Both can exist under D&D rules.

    Conformity to a community standard is a lawful trait, as is mandating that others also conform. If such conformity is intended to benefit everyone and refusal to conform reduces the benefit available to all, then it is also good. If a member of the community flees, not only does this take away the benefit he provided to the community but it takes away the benefits the community provides him, and thus it is necessary that the confused one be brought back so he can be reeducated and learn to love his place in the community.

    Freedom, even of thought, is a chaotic trait.

    Paladin A, motivated by the idea that the good of the many is the highest goal, is justified in imposing conformity upon all.
    These are lawful traits, yes, but you have mostly left out the "good" portion of a paladin's alignment. Valuing freedom is a chaotic trait, yes, but it is also a good trait. Good behavior that is coerced is not truly good behavior. In order to be truly good and to be rewarded as good it must be freely chosen, which requires that there also be an option to choose evil.
    Respect for the dignity of sentients, part of the description of "good" in the 3.5 PHB, also requires allowing them to make their own choices.
    A paladin can argue that his lawful aspect requires him to choose the good of the many over the good of the one, but his good aspect also requires that he sometimes choose the good of the one over that of the many. (Hat tip to Star Trek III)

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    Whether paladin A can exist or not in DnD rules somewhat depends on how one interprets the rules. A DM or writer could create a scenario in which a Lawful Good deity is trying to create an army of Good to fight against Evil and to that end is telling their followers, most of which being paladins, to create an empire of Good where worship of said deity is mandatory (to ensure more soldiers for their army of Good) and all laws have to be strictly followed with draconian punishments for those who fail to do so to prevent Evil and Chaos corrupting the empire.

    One person could say that this empire is actually Lawful Neutral because it's basically a system for churning out fodder for the war machine, but another could say that a Lawful Good empire doesn't require freedom of religion and that the rules are harsh but fair, with the soldiers being devoted to a Good cause (namely, the elimination of Evil).

    EDIT:
    And yes, such an empire could then make frivolous activities such as singing and dancing illegal and require the people living there to spend most of their time working and praying for the sake of strengthening the empire and spreading the faith. The fight against Evil requires devotion and dedication, after all.
    No, no, and no. A lawful good deity understands that devotion cannot be compelled. Therefore a lawful good deity will not mandate worship, and certainly won't allow his or her followers to hand out draconian punishments for those who won't be coerced. You are describing a lawful neutral or lawful evil system that wants to call itself lawful good. Any paladin working for such a system would fall.

    A good DM could still put together the scenario you describe, with the empire claiming that they do have real paladins, but there would be no true paladins on the side of this empire. The clerics would be deriving their spells from some other god, possibly even while being deluded that they were worshiping the lawful good deity.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Detect Evil, at least in 3.0 to 3.5, isn't that good at fine detail. You can have a Neutral character who commits a technically evil theft (their victim could reasonably be described as "the needy" and there's no alignment change after the theft - because it requires more than one evil act to change alignment - it requires repeatedly committing Evil acts to change a character's alignment.
    Like all good science, it would require strict controls and repetition to provide accurate results, but it could be done. Repeat an evil action often enough and you will shift your alignment to evil, even if it's petty theft or just lying, and that alignment shift will be detectible with detect evil.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    No, no, and no. A lawful good deity understands that devotion cannot be compelled. Therefore a lawful good deity will not mandate worship, and certainly won't allow his or her followers to hand out draconian punishments for those who won't be coerced. You are describing a lawful neutral or lawful evil system that wants to call itself lawful good. Any paladin working for such a system would fall.

    A good DM could still put together the scenario you describe, with the empire claiming that they do have real paladins, but there would be no true paladins on the side of this empire. The clerics would be deriving their spells from some other god, possibly even while being deluded that they were worshiping the lawful good deity.
    I think you might be making some assumptions about what are mandatory requirements for a deity or person to be Lawful Good.

    Actually that's not entirely fair. Your interpretation of Lawful Good is valid but I don't think it's the only one and if a DM made such an empire and said it still qualifies as Lawful Good I'd see it as an example of how Lawful Good can end up being problematic rather than it being not Lawful Good.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Worldsong View Post
    I think you might be making some assumptions about what are mandatory requirements for a deity or person to be Lawful Good.
    Well if they are described in game terms as lawful good then they have to actually be lawful and good.
    A DM could refuse to provide the actual alignment of the gods and have a god with good propaganda who pretends to be lawful good, but that god could not than have actual lawful good paladins out doing evil deeds for him on a regular basis (he might manage to hoodwink a few paladins into indirectly serving his evil goals now and then, but only on a temporary basis).

    Actually that's not entirely fair. Your interpretation of Lawful Good is valid...
    Thank you.
    ...but I don't think it's the only one and if a DM made such an empire and said it still qualifies as Lawful Good I'd see it as an example of how Lawful Good can end up being problematic rather than it being not Lawful Good.
    I would see it as an example of a DM who hasn't really thought out what lawful good really means and what all the implications are for the game he wants to run. I might enjoy such a game as a player, but I would definitely have words to say to the DM about it. Especially if I were playing a 3.5 or earlier paladin.

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason View Post
    Exactly. In D&D it is possible to empirically determine whether specific actions will shift your alignment towards evil, because there are spells to detect evil. For paladins there is an easy way to determine if singing and dancing is evil: use your detect evil power before and after someone dances or sings. If you don't get an evil reading then that behavior wasn't evil.

    To have a group of paladins set up a tyrannical state that tries to force people to be good is impossible. Trying to do so would cause the paladins to fall. This is because, somewhat paradoxically, lawful good behavior requires allowing free will (it falls under "respect for the dignity of sentient beings"). Lawful neutrals can talk about the evils of free will, but lawful goods must allow it, or they will find they are no longer good.

    Edit: Lawful Good behavior also requires not causing differing to innocents. If you are the enforcer for a tyrannical government that causes the innocent to suffer you cant also be a paladin.
    The Harmonium is a literal example of (mostly) paladins who did just that.
    'Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! “The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lómë!" The night is passing!"

  30. - Top - End - #240
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: The Problem with Paladin Villains (spoilers for SoD/GDGU)

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    The Harmonium is a literal example of (mostly) paladins who did just that.
    Was the Harmonium in Planescape somewhere? I would like to look it up.
    Planescape is one of the settings I'm least familiar with, because I never played in it while it was a thing.

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