I wish WotC would errata the Soulknife (Rant)

[Segev]

I'm pretty sure they were aware they could make it simpler, after all they could just copy paste pact of the blade. They chose not to.

Pact of the Blade doesn't have the "instant appear" functionality that is obviously intended by the lengths they went to expressly put it in there. What is unclear is how deliberate the limitations on which attack actions it could be used with was intentional or an oversight as they wrote it to try to make them appear and disappear with each attack.

LudicSavant is correct: the wording for the feat he quoted yields the behavior as an option and also expands it to more traditional soul knife behavior, such as actually showing the psychic blade(s) as armaments.

[Rukelnikov]

Pact of the Blade doesn't have the "instant appear" functionality that is obviously intended by the lengths they went to expressly put it in there. What is unclear is how deliberate the limitations on which attack actions it could be used with was intentional or an oversight as they wrote it to try to make them appear and disappear with each attack.

LudicSavant is correct: the wording for the feat he quoted yields the behavior as an option and also expands it to more traditional soul knife behavior, such as actually showing the psychic blade(s) as armaments.

If you mean because PotB is a bonus action, the usual way of wordig it is "for free", its widely used, they could just write that. They didn't want it to behave as a regular weapon, like the Dragonhide Claws do.

[LudicSavant]

If you mean because PotB is a bonus action

Pact of the Blade is not a bonus action.

[Hael]

Trying to divine the intent of the designers is so opaque in this edition, its not really worth arguing about. Take for instance the recent wording of booming blade that removes the cost component. Something that clearly seems intended to go after shadowblade interactions with few other possibilities. But then Crawford does what amounts to a 180 degree mea culpa on twitter.

My guess is that the team is large and the right toe doesnt necessarily speak to the left pinky and things get lost in translation.

[Evaar]

First off, why doesn’t the dual wielder feat work again?

Is there a specific rule somewhere that you’re not “wielding” a claw that grows out of your hand? The +1 AC part says “in each hand” but not this bullet point.

You’re right, I was misremembering. It’s the AC bonus that doesn’t work. Your hands are explicitly empty, otherwise you can’t use the claw.

Maybe the weapon juggling is more advanced than they felt the need to worry about (but the designers should have the level of system mastery this many years into this edition that they would see it). But a shield isn’t non-obvious, and it’s counter to the intended flavor. Clearly. See my earlier sarcasm about Wolverine and his famous shield.

[Rukelnikov]

Pact of the Blade is not a bonus action.

Ok, action, its irrelevant to the point that they could change it to free.

[Selion]

Trying to divine the intent of the designers is so opaque in this edition, its not really worth arguing about. Take for instance the recent wording of booming blade that removes the cost component. Something that clearly seems intended to go after shadowblade interactions with few other possibilities. But then Crawford does what amounts to a 180 degree mea culpa on twitter.

My guess is that the team is large and the right toe doesnt necessarily speak to the left pinky and things get lost in translation.

What? Has something happened post tacha regarding booming blade?

[Ashe]

The answer to that second one would be "because it's a class feature."

That's worse! Much more of an opportunity cost than 2gp.

... can't use most of their rogue features while doing it?
But even if you compare it to the core sub-classes... none of them really get a game changing offensive ability at level 3. ... Swashbucklers get an aggressive mobility power and an extra set of conditions under which they can sneak attack, which might lead to more off turn sneak attacks.

It's certainly never been useful to kite enemies, act first or get to use your core ability when fighting an enemy on your own!

Not sure if I'm using blue text correctly but you get the idea, to say that soulknife is breaking new ground but ignore what swashbuckler can do is deliberately ignoring what other subclasses can do for you to try and make a point.

One is an action movie. One is a spy thriller.

Why are you trying to play a spy thriller in the group stabs things to death in dark dungeon game?

I really dont understand this. At least in the rogue's case. Granted, my table almost nevers uses magic weapons (especially ones that come with a +X flat bonus), and I've never really taken a good look at any magic items, but what's the big loss here? The bulk of the rogue's damage comes from sneak attack, and the soulknife gets a second chance at it even from range (and without having to spend any feats for that), so I dont see how a +1, +2 or +3 would make that much of a difference.

Hit chance = more sneak attack, it's not rocket science. Also, why wouldn't you use magic items? You're just ridding yourself of anything to meaningfully interact with itemswise post level 5.

[Valmark]

What? Has something happened post tacha regarding booming blade?

Assuming there is nothing new besides the reprint and SCAG errata a change was that now Booming Blade requires a weapon with a price as a material component.

The only effect it has is that now Shadowblade cannot be used with BB (or GFB).

JC pretty much went "Oh wait that wasn't intended I'd allow it" if I recall the tweet/tweets correctly.

[ZRN]

What? Has something happened post tacha regarding booming blade?

They errata'd the material components to include a weapon worth at least 1sp, so you can't use it with shadow blade anymore. (They also changed the wording on the range, which caused some initial confusion but doesn't seem to have any actual gameplay implications.)

JC said in Twitter that as DM he'd probably allow a player to use shadow blade and booming blade together. To me, though, that isn't really him "backtracking" - that seems more like him saying, "These spells don't technically work together RAW anymore but a nice DM might let you use them together anyway." Unless there's more to this debate that I'm missing.

[Unoriginal]

They errata'd the material components to include a weapon worth at least 1sp, so you can't use it with shadow blade anymore. (They also changed the wording on the range, which caused some initial confusion but doesn't seem to have any actual gameplay implications.)

JC said in Twitter that as DM he'd probably allow a player to use shadow blade and booming blade together. To me, though, that isn't really him "backtracking" - that seems more like him saying, "These spells don't technically work together RAW anymore but a nice DM might let you use them together anyway." Unless there's more to this debate that I'm missing.

Crawford's twitter is no longer considered official rulings anymore, he's just giving his opinion as a DM.

[Evaar]

Crawford's twitter is no longer considered official rulings anymore, he's just giving his opinion as a DM.

Right. He told us what the intent of the change was - to close a loophole that no one thought was a loophole. Specifically, because the component was a weapon and didn’t specify a value, they wanted to make clear that you can’t just produce that weapon for free from a component pouch.

No one thought you could do that, but they felt a need to fix it anyway and in so doing created a host of actual issues that have less obvious answers for DMs to figure out. Can a psychic blade be used for Booming Blade? Shadow Blade? Natural weapons? What’s the value of a magic item? What about improvised weapons? Etc etc.

[loki_ragnarock]

It's certainly never been useful to kite enemies, act first or get to use your core ability when fighting an enemy on your own!

Not sure if I'm using blue text correctly but you get the idea, to say that soulknife is breaking new ground but ignore what swashbuckler can do is deliberately ignoring what other subclasses can do for you to try and make a point.

Huh. That's an interesting takeaway. Did you stop reading at some point? Or did I sufficiently obfuscate my meaning with layers of silliness? Either way, a correction is in order.

I actually brought it up as a point of comparison because I'm pointing out that the soulknife isn't really doing anything new in that regard, just different from core assumptions. I think in that same post I say that they're in the same conceptual vein for expanding the instances in which one can sneak attack. I think they compare favorably, as the ability reads in Tasha's; they both increase the instances in which a character can sneak attack, making the ability more flexible. "I can sneak attack when dueling someone" vs "I can sneak attack disarmed and bucknekkid." There's parity there.
I do think the soulknife is breaking new ground; the psychic knives aren't it, though. It's not the psychic knives that're class defining; the theme is psychic, not knives. The emphasis is on *soul*, not knife. Knife might be in the name, but just wait till you find out Champion doesn't give you any abilities that demonstrate you are the very best good boy from the American Kennel Club.
(I also don't use the blue text, so I'm likewise unsure if I'm using it right; everything I say and write is so tinted by mirth that maybe I should be using it exclusively? But also, now I want to play a character that is the very best good boy from the American Kennel Club, so does it really qualify as sarcasm?)

But the idea that the Soulknife somehow doesn't get to use most of their rogue features without opportunity attacks? Nah, dawg. Context of the base rogue chassis doesn't support that position in the least, and the context provided by their near peers don't really support that, either. It's a perfectly viable ability as it is. It gives you a pew-pew that you can use without penalty in melee range that you're always armed with; it puts darts to shame, and makes dagger ranged attacks look like weaksauce when you take into account the action economy required for drawing them. You can kite with it almost as well as a shortbow, but getting stuck in melee with it doesn't impart disadvantage, *and* you can attack twice a round sans a deep multi-class. You don't ever need to drop it, you can never be disarmed, you don't even need to wield it if the situation doesn't call for it, and your murder weapon can never really be traced to you so long as you ice the witnesses because it ceases to exist the moment it's done the dirty work. You can take the clothes of whoever you subdued to incorporate into your new disguise with impunity because you've left zero marks and spilled zero blood, and when they find your victim whoever is investigating will have a devil of a time identifying how they were killed, let alone who killed them. Also, it does psychic damage.
The whole package is solid. It doesn't *need* the upgrade to be a serviceable ability; it serves remarkably well already, even without benefiting off turn sneak attacks. It's got solid mechanical boons and "ribbon" applications that make it compelling without totally obviating all other possible options, which I think is generally good design.

In short, I think it's balanced as it is. And if you really need to benefit from doing off turn sneak attacks, the "I drop my dagger, pew-pew, and pick it up again as my interact with object so Owen the Order Cleric can let me off turn sneak attack" is just as easily depicted as the supremely badass "I flip my dagger in the air, hurl a blast of psionic energy against a distant foe across the room, take two steps to jab another fella in the gut with a psionic fist while the tossed dagger lands in my other outstretched hand, only to seamlessly bury it in someone when Owen the Order Cleric yells a warning at me."

The "absurd" sequence is pure Jedi smoothness when you aren't obsessed with labeling it absurd; Jedi are absurd, yeah, but some people find that sort of absurd cool. It's an attack sequence you simply can't do with a bow. It's a sequence that would be impossible to do with a brace of daggers without a specific fighting style for any other rogue; losing a level to multi-classing or an ASI to a feat. It's a sequence that is *uniquely* in the wheel house of the Soulknife. Yeah, you must carry a dagger to be perfectly optimized (or a short sword, or a rapier, whatever; daggers - as Roxette would say - got the look), but optimized isn't a requirement. A character can abstain from carrying a dagger and be perfectly fine just relying on the ability provided by the subclass, but are even better at the action movie shenanigans than most rogues - except maybe the swashbuckler - just by picking up a knife and flipping it in the air.

I suppose most of what I wrote was a bit more oblique, but the ability in the context of what other rogues can do is perfectly fine. As it is. No upgrade needed.

-----------------------
Further, many of the complaints about how it doesn't ever upgrade when compared to using magic weapons aren't addressed by making it compatible with opportunity attacks; the soulknife is still better served by carrying that magic dagger for much of their career, anyway. Fixing that "issue" would require a total rethink of the class, one where the soul loses out to the knife. I doubt I'd like the result as much.
-----------------------

As for "who would play a spy-thriller with D&D," maybe the same people who used it as a mechanism to explore dynastic responsibility and obligation, and the nature of state level power?

Regardless, it's a much easier proposition when characters can be in multiple locations, doing multiple things, while still being in perfect communication with each other; soulknife gets that, no one else does. To me, that's subclass defining because it naturally opens up a whole style of gameplay that would otherwise be difficult.
The knives? The knives are the ribbon.

[noob]

The knives? The knives are the ribbon.

That is exactly the problem: it is not a psionic rogue but a soulknife but yet the knife is irrelevant.
If they removed the knife and called it psionic rogue it would be fine but right now it seems it is supposed to uphold the legacy of the previous soulknives that got average knives but made out of psionics.
I think the psionic knife should be a feat and that the psionic rogue should get something else.

[Evaar]

The knives? The knives are the ribbon.

First, I'm sorry, but you gotta work on your brevity.

But to respond to this point in particular - if the psychic blades are a ribbon then why do Homing Strikes and Rend Mind only work with them?

(The answer is because they aren't a ribbon, they're a build-around feature that's poorly designed.)

[OracleofWuffing]

Regardless, it's a much easier proposition when characters can be in multiple locations, doing multiple things, while still being in perfect communication with each other; soulknife gets that, no one else does. To me, that's subclass defining because it naturally opens up a whole style of gameplay that would otherwise be difficult.
The knives? The knives are the ribbon.

A ribbon that encourages you to split the party and play differently from the rest of table? Yeah, in that case, I'm all for DMs ruling a nerf that allows psychic blades for other weapon attacks just to stop those shenanigans.

[Segev]

A ribbon that encourages you to split the party and play differently from the rest of table? Yeah, in that case, I'm all for DMs ruling a nerf that allows psychic blades for other weapon attacks just to stop those shenanigans.

I want to agree with this, but I'm confused by your use of the term "nerf," here. My confusion makes me wonder if I'm misunderstanding you. Could you please clarify?

[quindraco]

Regardless, it's a much easier proposition when characters can be in multiple locations, doing multiple things, while still being in perfect communication with each other; soulknife gets that, no one else does. To me, that's subclass defining because it naturally opens up a whole style of gameplay that would otherwise be difficult.

Soulknives don't get what you described.

Soulknives get a communication hub, which is absolutely not perfect communication. Everyone in the network can talk to the Soulknife and the Soulknife can talk to everyone, but members who are not the hub cannot talk directly to other members who are not the hub. One of the consequences is that communication is generally bottlenecked: if Adam wants to talk to Bob through Carl, the message will send on Adam's turn and deliver on Bob's, assuming the Soulknife is faithful, and Bob's reply suffers the same bottleneck.

Still, I think the communications network is, in practice, more subclass-defining than the psychic knives, because they messed up the wording on the psychic knives. You're definitely wrong about the ribbon thing: they intended the blades to be subclass-defining, or the subclass wouldn't be reliant on them for the L9 and L17 subclass features.

The most powerful ability Soulknives get is, I maintain, L3 access to a radically inferior version of the L14 Lore Bard ability, because it stacks. Soulknives now own access to the highest ability checks in the game, assuming you're applying buffs - I think we're up to 1d20(reliable from self, advantage from bard) + 2d4 (peace cleric + guidance) + 1d4 (some races, check-specific) + proficiency*2 (self) + stat modifier + some magic items + inspiration (bard) + knack (self), or, at high level:

max(10,2d20 keep highest) + 3d4 + 2d12 + 12 + 5 + magic items, or on average a solid 52 + items (min 32, max 73).

[loki_ragnarock]

First, I'm sorry, but you gotta work on your brevity.

But to respond to this point in particular - if the psychic blades are a ribbon then why do Homing Strikes and Rend Mind only work with them?

(The answer is because they aren't a ribbon, they're a build-around feature that's poorly designed.)

If favored enemy is a ribbon, then why does Foe Slayer only work with it? And yet, people make that claim here frequently. There are whole threads that devolve into that exact argument, except for rangers. Ribbon doesn't really have a set meaning, so far as I can tell from context.

Psychic Blades are a ribbon to me because they don't define a playstyle. Stabby-rogue already exists, slightly different ways to stab are boring, and do nothing to redefine anything about the rogue. Making adjustments to make this an ever so slightly more stabby-rogue would continue to be boring; they are already better than alot of stabby rogues at being stabby, for the reasons listed so briefly above. But that doesn't redefine the way you can take on the world. Being able to constantly communicate silently with dispersed units? The tactical and strategic implications of that are enough to change the way you play the game; that's the kind of thing that defines a class. That's the kind of thing that makes Soul Knife unique.

The theme is soul, not knife. If you want knife to be the singular or even the primary focus, you've got a fighter kit. As it is we have a class that reads "I don't fail" as their central theme, which is a more rogue kit. I read it and see a rogue kit.
In order:
"I don't fail."
"I redefine team play."
"Stabby knives that are better than most weapons that rogues have access to in most capacities while not totally overshadowing them in *every* way while packing a tonne of flavor. Nicely done, that's a finely threaded needle."
"I don't fail, but at stabbing this time, continuing a theme established by the first ability more than the third ability."
"New use of cunning action that's could put Dash to shame or leave them flummoxed, that's pretty cool. I mean, it's not misty step but it's close, but it suffers from alot of needless rolling like much of the stuff that made it into Tasha's. Regardless, a great way to break a grapple for free."
"Invisibility... okay, I guess they ran out of ideas here, why they think a second level spell a couple of times a day is the bees knees is beyond me. I guess they could potentially cast it more often than an AT, but that would really pigeon hole them into only doing that. They should take a second swing at this feature, because they missed me with this,"
"Stunning strike, but not as good, for a rogue. Well, it's something; rogues aren't really meant to be offensive maestros, but throwing them a bone is probably for the best."

That basically reads like a rogue kit. Two "I don't fail" abilities - echoes of reliable talent and stroke of luck - very rogue-y. A movement power reminiscent of cunning action combining dash and disengage into one, very rogue-y. A stealth power that sort of doubles as a defense power, easily countered by myriad things by that level; boooooooooooooring but rogue-y. And three offensive powers; psychic pew-pew, psychic pew-pew with proper sights, and pew-pew rings a bell, spread out over a broad area.
That's about the right ratio for a rogue. It's also about the right weight for combat focus in a rogue. It's got one ability that overshadows them all and makes the class its own thing.

Honestly, the only bit I'd argue needs changed is that level 13 ability. Invisibility? 6 levels after an AT gets it? Lame. But even though I think it's lame, I also don't think it's errata worthy. Though the more I think about it, the more I see the synergy between it and their 17th level ability, which makes both of them better in total. Serviceable, I suppose.

That said, you see psychic blades as a build-around feature poorly designed. I see it as a masterclass in design. Just because the ability doesn't immediately lend itself to a commonly exploited DPR booster isn't a bad thing. Of course, that it does nothing to *stop* a commonly exploited DPR booster isn't a bad thing, either; you just need to grab a sole blade.

[OracleofWuffing]

I want to agree with this, but I'm confused by your use of the term "nerf," here. My confusion makes me wonder if I'm misunderstanding you. Could you please clarify?

I'm under the impression that "nerf" implies a reduction in capability, at least in the context of game mechanics. All other things equal: if a ruling reduced the damage of a damage dealing character, that's a nerf; if a ruling reduced the amount of spells a spellcaster had, that's a nerf; and if a ruling reduced the amount of skills a skillmonkey could have, that's a nerf. So, I say that a ruling that prevents a spy from being a spy is also a nerf.

Like you, I do not fully comprehend the reasons why the ruling prevents the Soulknife from being a spy. I make no declaration that the Soulknife should or should not be a spy, but it is apparent from discussion that it is possible and this ruling, somehow, would interfere with it.

Naturally, the ruling carries all your standard caveats with it. DMs should be upfront at game zero about their intentions to decisively alter how a ribbon changes the very being of a class. Players should always clear ambiguities with their DMs before trying things. Stay hydrated, but don't overhydrate. If a rash appears, consider contacting a physician.

[Segev]

If favored enemy is a ribbon, then why does Foe Slayer only work with it? And yet, people make that claim here frequently.

I believe the point being made when people say that lies in the fact that they're saying it derisively: Favored Enemy wasn't intended to be a ribbon, but effectively is so weak that it is only as good as one.

I don't think the mind blade feature is actually as weak as favored enemy. But I also think that it was meant to be subclass-defining, NOT a ribbon.

[loki_ragnarock]

Soulknives don't get what you described.

True.
Once it's combat rounds, sure, but even then it's not that onerous when thinking is a free action. Outside of combat it's a pretty flawless radio, if dependent on the operator.

Still, I think the communications network is, in practice, more subclass-defining than the psychic knives, because they messed up the wording on the psychic knives. You're definitely wrong about the ribbon thing: they intended the blades to be subclass-defining, or the subclass wouldn't be reliant on them for the L9 and L17 subclass features.

Eh, one of the two features at 9 is dependent on the knives. The other is a movement power that got tied in because shoving in two features at 9 is gauche; no other subclass pre-Tasha's tries to pull that. Pretending it's a blade power is the sad justification for ability creep, really. And if forced to choose between the two to stay true to precedent... I'd rather have the teleport. Meaningful accuracy is already supplied by the 3rd level ability's second attack.

The most powerful ability Soulknives get is, I maintain, L3 access to a radically inferior version of the L14 Lore Bard ability, because it stacks. Soulknives now own access to the highest ability checks in the game, assuming you're applying buffs - I think we're up to 1d20(reliable from self, advantage from bard) + 2d4 (peace cleric + guidance) + 1d4 (some races, check-specific) + proficiency*2 (self) + stat modifier + some magic items + inspiration (bard) + knack (self), or, at high level:

max(10,2d20 keep highest) + 3d4 + 2d12 + 12 + 5 + magic items, or on average a solid 52 + items (min 32, max 73).

I agree, mostly. It's like they watched the threads here where people were all "Lore bard is better than a rogue at being a skill guy" and said to themselves, "Oh, we will friggan see about that come the next book, I'll tell you what." The ability reads like a patch to help that in isolation, but in combination with all the other optional rules introduced over time... game seems to be stretching it's systems at the seams.

The ability is a bit better than the lore bard ability in some ways; it isn't expended if you still manage to fail. You only ever have to *try* to expend it if you fail. That makes it a little less good at generically pumping up absurd numbers, but numbers become meaningless after DC 30 unless it's an opposed check between PCs; I've been assured that rolling into the next tier of success higher than "practically impossible" does not mean you are allowed to do the impossible, while monsters and NPCs don't got the juice to oppose over 30. (Minus an edge case I'm unfamiliar with.)
"I never fail" is a pretty cool schtick, all told. It's very on brand for a rogue... they're just getting it hella early, because I think it maps a little closer to - and is probably better than, in some ways, and certainly synergizes with - reliable talent. Mostly it encourages the character to shoot for the moon or try the nearly impossible from an earlier point in their career; the sort of thing you'd want from someone with a magical brain.

Player - What I would like to do, having been discovered where I shouldn't be, is convince the guard that he's asleep on duty and just having a dream, and that I'm a part of his subconscious telling him to stop dreaming about work because he spends enough waking hours here and maybe he should dream about visiting the tavern instead.
DM - I'm ruling that as nearly impossible. DC 30 Persuasion.
Players - Excellent. I feel like I've got a good shot at this. Ah, 25, a failure. Let's add six to that for a 31.
DM - Well, with the aid of your magical brain playing at the edges of his awareness to induce a facsimile of a dream state, he wanders off his shift and to his favorite tavern while flipping the bird to his coworkers, convinced that there will be no consequences for these actions, as this is a dream and he hates Larry, which you know because he tells Larry loudly and colorfully before exiting. Lose your psi-die.

Player - I would like to leap across this chasm.
DM - There are rules for how far you can leap. It's strength based. But sure, like many DMs I'll let you roll to see if you can make it or not. But as I give with one hand, I shall take with the other; I'm ruling that nearly impossible. DC 30 Athletics.
Player- Huzzah! I shall see you on the other side, knaves! A 26, failure. *Gasp* But lets add four to that for a 30!
DM - You leap into the night sky, an act of suicide that draws in a collective gasp of breath from the assembled knaves. Using your enormous, magical brain, you pyrokinetically ignite the fart you've psychometabolized out of your booty with the force of a jet, propelling you the last few feet to your final destination. The knaves are astounded. Surely they will tell stories of the blazing butt bandit for all time. Lose your psi-die.
Player - I... am famous now?

It's kind of glorious in it's flexibility for representing psionic acumen. Roll, fail, something magic brainy happens, success. It sort of rewards moonshots most, even if most DMs are going to go Jedi rather than puerile.

[J-H]

I just wish it was a decent melee weapon. Unfortunately, it's written as a throwing weapon, where you're throwing around little psychic daggers instead of manifesting a personal lightsaber.

Bleh.

[Selion]

If favored enemy is a ribbon, then why does Foe Slayer only work with it? And yet, people make that claim here frequently. There are whole threads that devolve into that exact argument, except for rangers. Ribbon doesn't really have a set meaning, so far as I can tell from context.

Psychic Blades are a ribbon to me because they don't define a playstyle. Stabby-rogue already exists, slightly different ways to stab are boring, and do nothing to redefine anything about the rogue. Making adjustments to make this an ever so slightly more stabby-rogue would continue to be boring; they are already better than alot of stabby rogues at being stabby, for the reasons listed so briefly above. But that doesn't redefine the way you can take on the world. Being able to constantly communicate silently with dispersed units? The tactical and strategic implications of that are enough to change the way you play the game; that's the kind of thing that defines a class. That's the kind of thing that makes Soul Knife unique.

The theme is soul, not knife. If you want knife to be the singular or even the primary focus, you've got a fighter kit. As it is we have a class that reads "I don't fail" as their central theme, which is a more rogue kit. I read it and see a rogue kit.
In order:
"I don't fail."
"I redefine team play."
"Stabby knives that are better than most weapons that rogues have access to in most capacities while not totally overshadowing them in *every* way while packing a tonne of flavor. Nicely done, that's a finely threaded needle."
"I don't fail, but at stabbing this time, continuing a theme established by the first ability more than the third ability."
"New use of cunning action that's could put Dash to shame or leave them flummoxed, that's pretty cool. I mean, it's not misty step but it's close, but it suffers from alot of needless rolling like much of the stuff that made it into Tasha's. Regardless, a great way to break a grapple for free."
"Invisibility... okay, I guess they ran out of ideas here, why they think a second level spell a couple of times a day is the bees knees is beyond me. I guess they could potentially cast it more often than an AT, but that would really pigeon hole them into only doing that. They should take a second swing at this feature, because they missed me with this,"
"Stunning strike, but not as good, for a rogue. Well, it's something; rogues aren't really meant to be offensive maestros, but throwing them a bone is probably for the best."

That basically reads like a rogue kit. Two "I don't fail" abilities - echoes of reliable talent and stroke of luck - very rogue-y. A movement power reminiscent of cunning action combining dash and disengage into one, very rogue-y. A stealth power that sort of doubles as a defense power, easily countered by myriad things by that level; boooooooooooooring but rogue-y. And three offensive powers; psychic pew-pew, psychic pew-pew with proper sights, and pew-pew rings a bell, spread out over a broad area.
That's about the right ratio for a rogue. It's also about the right weight for combat focus in a rogue. It's got one ability that overshadows them all and makes the class its own thing.

Honestly, the only bit I'd argue needs changed is that level 13 ability. Invisibility? 6 levels after an AT gets it? Lame. But even though I think it's lame, I also don't think it's errata worthy. Though the more I think about it, the more I see the synergy between it and their 17th level ability, which makes both of them better in total. Serviceable, I suppose.

That said, you see psychic blades as a build-around feature poorly designed. I see it as a masterclass in design. Just because the ability doesn't immediately lend itself to a commonly exploited DPR booster isn't a bad thing. Of course, that it does nothing to *stop* a commonly exploited DPR booster isn't a bad thing, either; you just need to grab a sole blade.

I agree that psi blades are not the best thing in this class, but it's clearly one of its defining features. Developers just have been shy because they didn't want to give the class nice utility powers and better striking abilities in respect to other rogue subclasses, but I think the limitations are not on purpose, they wanted a psychic damage rogue with a few goodies, they failed in delivering its combat abilities and nailed the utility side.
Furthermore its abilities are not that unique, SK telepathy is one of the best available by level 3, but eventually a wizard casting rary's telepathyc bond by ritual would overshadow completely this power. Skill bonuses are good, but a bard could be a skill monkey just as good as a SK. Of course bards and wizards are top notch in utility, SK just reduce the gap in respect to other rogues, which is good, but it's not exceptional.

[LudicSavant]

I don't know, I kind of like it the way it is. I know. Boo. Hiss.

Just because the ability doesn't immediately lend itself to a commonly exploited DPR booster isn't a bad thing.

The Soulknife does not "prevent a DPR exploit." You can do reaction attacks as a Soulknife, you are just encouraged by its bizarre wording to do it in a particularly silly and immersion-breaking way involving drawing and dropping non-psychic knives. If the devs had actually wanted to stop off-turn sneak attacks, all they would have had to do is change one line, not create this mess.

What it's actually doing is preventing your weapon from acting like a weapon, and thus breaking half the interactions with the rest of the system (including both helpful and harmful effects to the Rogue player, from themselves, allies, and enemies) in a way that cannot be explained in-character any time it comes up. Tons of mechanical interactions with attacks simply do not function as a result of its uniquely janky wording.

The issue isn't balance, it's janky spaghetti code.

And, as others have been saying, fixing the spaghetti code would not somehow prevent them from doing any of the spy stuff you've talked about. If anything, it would make them do those things more cleanly.

If it was actually supposed to be a slow, one-shot derringer, then... sure, you could redesign it to work like that if you wanted, but that's not how it actually performs right now (you can use Psychic Blades multiple times a round, at-will, and they still work with Haste and such). It just performs like it's glitching out.

[Unoriginal]

The Soulknife does not "prevent a DPR exploit." You can do reaction attacks as a Soulknife, you are just encouraged by its bizarre wording to do it in a particularly silly and immersion-breaking way involving drawing and dropping non-psychic knives. If the devs had actually wanted to stop off-turn sneak attacks, all they would have had to do is change one line, not create this mess.

What it's actually doing is preventing your weapon from acting like a weapon, and thus breaking half the interactions with the rest of the system (including both helpful and harmful effects to the Rogue player, from themselves, allies, and enemies) in a way that cannot be explained in-character any time it comes up. Tons of mechanical interactions with attacks simply do not function as a result of its uniquely janky wording.

The issue isn't balance, it's janky spaghetti code.

And, as others have been saying, fixing the spaghetti code would not somehow prevent them from doing any of the spy stuff you've talked about. If anything, it would make them do those things more cleanly.

If it was actually supposed to be a slow, one-shot derringer, then... sure, you could redesign it to work like that if you wanted, but that's not how it actually performs right now (you can use Psychic Blades multiple times a round, at-will, and they still work with Haste and such). It just performs like it's glitching out.

There is no mess nor spaghetti code. The ability is clear, the rules are clear.

Wanting to dig a hole after you've been given a hammer does not make it a bad hammer. The Psychic Blade works as indented, and without issue within what is intended.

"It is frustrating that the Soulknife subclass doesn't let my Rogue do opportunity attacks unless I don't use its signature feature" is an opinion, and an understandable one. "The Soulknife subclass breaks half the interactions with the rest of the system" or "the Soulknife subclass encourages you to do something silly and immersion-breaking to get your opportunity attacks" are simply factually incorrect statements.

The Soulknife discourages you from seeking to do opportunity attacks, by encouraging the character to focus on an Attack-action-second-attack-bonus-action-with-both-hands-free method for DPR that doesn't allow opportunity attacks.

Again, I'm not saying that anyone has to like it. But if you don't like the chocolate ice cream you're served, saying "this vanilla ice cream is terrible" is simply incorrect.

[LudicSavant]

Wanting to dig a hole after you've been given a hammer does not make it a bad hammer.

If it worked like a hammer everyone in this thread would be happy.

The Soulknife discourages you from seeking to do opportunity attacks, by encouraging the character to focus on an Attack-action-second-attack-bonus-action-with-both-hands-free method for DPR that doesn't allow opportunity attacks.

The truth is quite the opposite. The Soulknife-as-written has every bit as much mechanical incentive to seek opportunity attacks as other Rogues do, despite the fact that their Psychic Blades cannot be used on said opportunity attacks. They just use regular blades for it.

"the Soulknife subclass encourages you to do something silly and immersion-breaking to get your opportunity attacks"

The incentive to do said thing is a direct result of the Soulknife's wording -- if that wording did not exist, there would be no incentive to do that thing.

"The Soulknife subclass breaks half the interactions with the rest of the system"

When I say it breaks off mechanical interactions with the rest of the system, I mean this:

Tons of mechanical interactions with attacks simply do not function as a result of its uniquely janky wording.

The Soulknife does, in fact, make it so that mechanical interactions with every element of the system that involve weapon attacks outside of the Attack action (which is a lot of interactions, much more than just opportunity attacks) do not function with Pyschic Blades. It's not just opportunity attacks, it's a bloody ton of things. Every single rule that says you make a weapon attack (instead of saying you make the Attack action). Everything from opportunity attacks to Inspiring Surge to Confusion to Vengeful Assault and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on. It's not a short list.

That is simply a fact written in the rulebooks, regardless of your statement to the contrary.

[Unoriginal]

When I say it breaks off mechanical interactions with the rest of the system, I mean this:



The Soulknife does, in fact, make it so that mechanical interactions with every element of the system that involve weapon attacks outside of the Attack action (which is a lot of interactions, much more than just opportunity attacks) do not function with Pyschic Blades. It's not just opportunity attacks, it's a bloody ton of things. Every single ability that says you make a weapon attack (instead of saying you make the Attack action). Everything from opportunity attacks to Inspiring Surge to Confusion to Vengeful Assault and so on and so on and so on and so on and son on.

That is simply a fact written in the rulebooks, regardless of your statement to the contrary.

Indeed, Psychic Blades do not interact with every element on the system that involves weapon attacks outside of the Attack action.

It does not *break* anything. "No interaction" does not mean "broken game element".

[Evaar]

Indeed, Psychic Blades do not interact with every element on the system that involves weapon attacks outside of the Attack action.

It does not *break* anything. "No interaction" does not mean "broken game element".

We're not saying it's "broken." We're saying it's badly designed. It should interact with those other features. There's no good reason it shouldn't. The Soulknife isn't somehow so superior to the other Rogue subclasses that there's a balance related reason to prevent them from getting effective off-turn attacks with their defining feature when grouped with, say, an Order Cleric. And yet that is the result of the way the rules are written. Thus, poor design.

Yes it does what it says. What it says is counterintuitive, unnecessarily limiting, and incentivizes silly workarounds like weapon juggling.

[loki_ragnarock]

The Soulknife does not "prevent a DPR exploit." You can do reaction attacks as a Soulknife, you are just encouraged by its bizarre wording to do it in a particularly silly and immersion-breaking way involving drawing and dropping non-psychic knives. If the devs had actually wanted to stop off-turn sneak attacks, all they would have had to do is change one line, not create this mess.
.

To be fair, I don't claim it prevents a DPR exploit. The ability just doesn't lend itself to such.

I mean, I'd been sitting on this pun for *pages*, but I did put it out there:

Of course, that it does nothing to *stop* a commonly exploited DPR booster isn't a bad thing, either; you just need to grab a sole blade.