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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    At some point I had a houserule of spell like abilities requiring the use of somatic and verbal components as normal. The fluff was that the components were simpler in nature but still necessary. The reason for this was that I wanted to stop outsiders shenanigans with hiding and spamming spell likes without making a sound. I remember finding outsiders too powerful in 3.5 especially compared to other monsters in the Core (except dragons), perhaps because they were a bit too low on the hd department in 3.0 the designers went the other way just a tad too much in 3.5.
    I didn't hear complaints about this in pathfinder so maybe there is no need for this change or the fact they allowed weapons to ignore DR's acted as a indirect nerf to ousiders.
    In any case the basic question is how would the game change if spell like abilities required somatic and verbal components?

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    All warlock invocations have a somatic component (only - including Baleful Utterance so it can be used in a silence effect), but they are different to normal spell-like abilities.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by VladtheLad View Post
    At some point I had a houserule of spell like abilities requiring the use of somatic and verbal components as normal. The fluff was that the components were simpler in nature but still necessary. The reason for this was that I wanted to stop outsiders shenanigans with hiding and spamming spell likes without making a sound. I remember finding outsiders too powerful in 3.5 especially compared to other monsters in the Core (except dragons), perhaps because they were a bit too low on the hd department in 3.0 the designers went the other way just a tad too much in 3.5.
    I didn't hear complaints about this in pathfinder so maybe there is no need for this change or the fact they allowed weapons to ignore DR's acted as a indirect nerf to ousiders.
    In any case the basic question is how would the game change if spell like abilities required somatic and verbal components?
    if youre going to do this whats the point of spell like abilities? why not just give them casting like sorcerer's and give them the spells from their spell like abilities as their spells known?

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by Remuko View Post
    if youre going to do this whats the point of spell like abilities? why not just give them casting like sorcerer's and give them the spells from their spell like abilities as their spells known?
    Ease of use? Why would I give them sorcerer casting?
    I am not sure the whole point of spell like abilities is casting spells without somatic or verbal components. But you know, actually having access to the spell. Adding sorcerer casting would be more time consuming and would propably end up giving the monsters more spells known.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by Khedrac View Post
    All warlock invocations have a somatic component (only - including Baleful Utterance so it can be used in a silence effect), but they are different to normal spell-like abilities.
    Warlock invocations wouldn't be affected by the change.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    I think the point was that since the warlock's SLAs already have a verbal component then you can just borrow those rules for your outsiders
    "If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by VladtheLad View Post
    Ease of use? Why would I give them sorcerer casting?
    I am not sure the whole point of spell like abilities is casting spells without somatic or verbal components. But you know, actually having access to the spell. Adding sorcerer casting would be more time consuming and would propably end up giving the monsters more spells known.
    instead of making something new theres already something functional. yeah they might get more known, but you'd be the DM picking which ones they know, so it wouldnt affect their power level unless you wanted it to. but seriously the only real functional difference between a creature that casts spells as if it has sorcerer levels and one with SLA's is that one doesnt need components. Thats literally basically the only difference.

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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    It always amused me that by RAW innate SLAs have no verbal or somatic components, yet they provoke AoOs..

    How? What exactly is happening that provokes? Is it just the "concentration face" that they are pulling?

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    It always amused me that by RAW innate SLAs have no verbal or somatic components, yet they provoke AoOs..

    How? What exactly is happening that provokes? Is it just the "concentration face" that they are pulling?
    It's because you have to "let your guard down" to cast anything with Concentration. Will link SRD shortly.

    Edit: Link

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Performing a Distracting Act
    Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle.
    Last edited by Techwarrior; 2021-05-09 at 09:36 PM.
    Avatar courtesy of Ceika.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by Remuko View Post
    instead of making something new theres already something functional. yeah they might get more known, but you'd be the DM picking which ones they know, so it wouldnt affect their power level unless you wanted it to. but seriously the only real functional difference between a creature that casts spells as if it has sorcerer levels and one with SLA's is that one doesnt need components. Thats literally basically the only difference.
    It just seems extra work, without any gain.

    The main worry I have is if there are any weird consequences apart from "facing creatures with spell likes is slightly easier now".

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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Thumbs up Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by Techwarrior View Post
    It's because you have to "let your guard down" to cast anything with Concentration. Will link SRD shortly.

    Edit: Link
    Thank you - it's something that's always irked me, but that citation makes sesnse.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by VladtheLad View Post
    It just seems extra work, without any gain.

    The main worry I have is if there are any weird consequences apart from "facing creatures with spell likes is slightly easier now".
    They can't use their SLAs in a grapple now as it requires somatic components. They can't be cast in a silence spell. You can now make spellcraft checks to identify it.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    It always amused me that by RAW innate SLAs have no verbal or somatic components, yet they provoke AoOs.
    Honestly, the Attack of Opportunity rules are pretty silly in general
    "If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    Honestly, the Attack of Opportunity rules are pretty silly in general
    I think defensive casting is silly.

    The AoO rules provide nice tactical engagement. Personally, I think the withdraw action is underutilized and under supported by WotC. I also think that spring attack is an underappreciated feat along with the prerequisite feats. I don't play at the high op levels many on these boards claim to play at. So my opinion on the matter is most likely not popular.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    They can't use their SLAs in a grapple now as it requires somatic components. They can't be cast in a silence spell. You can now make spellcraft checks to identify it.
    Good catches, thank you.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Changing spell like abilities to require verbal and somatic components

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    I think defensive casting is silly.
    I think the fact it progressively becomes easier as you go in higher levels is silly. I would use the trailblazer version before throwing defensive casting completely out the game.

    Also at some point the guy who made the OSR clone Dark dungeons wrote some houserules for 3.0 that removed defensive casting.

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