Fallout X: Back after those messages

[Triaxx]

The gold is as it was pre-war. A trap. 10 luck breaking the Sierra Madre provides via the vending machine in the Bunker more money than even getting all the gold bars ever could. Congrats you now have an infinite source of the most valuable currency in NV. Ammo.

[GloatingSwine]

The gold is as it was pre-war. A trap. 10 luck breaking the Sierra Madre provides via the vending machine in the Bunker more money than even getting all the gold bars ever could. Congrats you now have an infinite source of the most valuable currency in NV. Ammo.

No, the most valuable currency in NV is duct tape because you can make weapon repair kits out of it :P

(Though you can buy those in the bunker as well after Dead Money)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One of the things I found frustrating about Dead Money is that there's nothing good in the Vault. The gold only provides caps, which your character does not need considering how stupidly abundant cap sources are and how little of worth is available to actually purchase in the game (ammo and repair kits, pretty much), and you can hardly carry any of it anyway.

When Dead Money was released the big reason to go there was the additional skill books, but that stopped mattering as additional DLC were released, which devalued it significantly.

That's actually the point of the Vault. It was hyped up to be this enormously valuable treasure explicitly as a trap for Dean. It's intentionally left looking valuable with insanely heavy gold bars that Dean wouldn't be able to move himself, as a snare to get him caught.

The real treasure of Dead Money is breaking the bank at the Sierra Madre and getting a thousand tokens every three days, which can be exchanged for repair kits and ammo. Well, that and the Holorifle if you have investment in Energy Weapons skill. Since you can just Rest until your next deposit, you have effectively infinite ammo and repair kits after this. Much like how The Pitt gives you an effectively unlimited amount of ammo once complete.

Come to think of it, there's a LOT of parallels between Dead Money and The Pitt. Given I loathed The Pitt in FO3, I guess it makes sense I didn't like DM either.

[DigoDragon]

No, the most valuable currency in NV is duct tape because you can make weapon repair kits out of it :P

Yeah, I remember leaving Dead Money with more repair kits than I ever needed to finish the game with. The two gold bars I took I just used as paper weights in my BigMT home.

DM is a pretty decent DLC. The story and characters are for sure the best part. The worst I'd say are the indestructible radios. I felt cheated when I'd try something clever to get around a radio into position to shoot it, then realize it can't be shot. Eventually I added a mod that disabled the head exploding part because if the DLC is gonna change the rules mid-game them so shall I. :3

[Triaxx]

My favorite time was a moderately high level character bringing in a shotgun, a lot of ammo, and the And Stay Back perk.

[NeoVid]

Dead Money being fundamentally different from the rest of the game looks to be the reason people either love or despise it. For me, I liked the storyline and the character arcs, and the area was the only place in the game where I felt like I was actually in danger since I passed level 7 or so.

And in my opinion, the real treasure of the Sierra Madre would have been to get out with the tech to recreate the combat holograms. Imagine what Mr House could have done with that... or don't, if you like sleeping at night.

[veti]

And in my opinion, the real treasure of the Sierra Madre would have been to get out with the tech to recreate the combat holograms. Imagine what Mr House could have done with that... or don't, if you like sleeping at night.

That was Elijah's plan, exactly. I thought it rather overrated myself. The holograms can't wander far from the projectors, and the projectors themselves are gratifyingly fragile, so... their much-vaunted "invulnerability" doesn't really mean that much.

[Mechalich]

That was Elijah's plan, exactly. I thought it rather overrated myself. The holograms can't wander far from the projectors, and the projectors themselves are gratifyingly fragile, so... their much-vaunted "invulnerability" doesn't really mean that much.

There are ways to protect the projectors, and they don't seem to need direct line-of-sight to the holograms, so they're very useful. In particular they'd be devastating against unintelligent threats. Put a projector in a steel box, lay out some bait, and then watch the deathclaws/cazadors/tunnelers/etc just show up and die endlessly. They could also be used effectively by being supported using decoys. If your projectors are in a little steel box, but you place out 300 boxes for only 3 holograms your holograms can deal a tremendous amount of death before the right boxes are destroyed. It's not a totally overwhelming technology, but it's definitely a nice thing to have.

It would be really significant if NV had base-building, but even as is it would still have been cool if you could adapt some limited application of the tech like Hologram mine or grenade or something.

[Grim Portent]

Elijah did plan to combine the holograms with the Cloud mind you, the emitters are harder to find when obscured by toxic fog that penetrates protective gear.

His plan seemed to be to kill essentially everyone, which does raise the question of who he was planning to build his new world with.

[Rynjin]

Given Elijah's general track record, he probably didn't think that far ahead.

[Triaxx]

Given the canon bad ending he definitely didn't.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, about the vault being essentially useless, I think that's also a point from another perspective.

Consider, if you will, the tale of El Dorado. The story that pushed the Spanish Conquistadores to brave the untamed wilds of the Amazon trying to to find it. Then they *did* find the origin of the tale... and it wasn't enough. It was never enough. No matter how much they found, it couldn't have been El Dorado, they had to keep searching. They threw out Platinum as 'unripe gold'. They ignored rubies the size of a tangerine, all in the pursuit of gold. You couldn't get a better morale plot for greed being all-consuming.

And that's what Dead Money was. Dean wanted two things: He wanted Vera, and he wanted the guy's cash. Not necessarily in that order, mind you. But if he could keep the girl while also scoring the heist, bonus. Elijah wanted the tech. He wanted the power of the pre-fall civilization. He had placed technology on so high a pedestal that, like El Dorado, it would never be enough, there has to be more to it than that. Sometimes, a toaster is just a toaster (or, if you go to Big MT, a psychopathic robot bent on creating a second apocalypse just so he doesn't miss out on one). Elijah would never accept that. He always felt that if he could just break the code, the secret to unlimited power lays just behind.

It is this obsession, this greed, be it for tangible loot or tech, is the moral lesson for the DLC. Everyone came here because they wanted something. Elijah wanted the Old World's tech and power. Dean wanted Vera and the loot. Christine wanted Elijah dead. All the people who came before you wanted loot. Which ties into the tagline for the DLC: Learn to let go. Elijah never could, Dean never could. Christine can, in her 'good' ending.

Except for the Courier, of course. The Courier is entirely exempt from this morality play entirely, being a catalyst for other's stories, but largely unchanged by everything. He still walks away with more than he came in with. He is never punished for greed. Which is, I think, another problem I have with the DLC. You set up a beautifully poignant morality play of greed and the consequences thereof... then just shrugs off and goes 'let's not go there, it's a silly place' and proceeds to do a song and dance number as a scene change.

Then again, I suppose it would be impossible to apply those rules to a player in a game whose genre I typically refer to as a 'first person looter'. Which is why I don't really feel they should have tried for that particular morality play in the first place. The tone is too dissonant with the underlying game mechanics.

[GloatingSwine]

He is never punished for greed. Which is, I think, another problem I have with the DLC. You set up a beautifully poignant morality play of greed and the consequences thereof...

Unless you overencumber yourself with loot from the vault and can't reach the exit in time, of course...

[LibraryOgre]

Except for the Courier, of course. The Courier is entirely exempt from this morality play entirely, being a catalyst for other's stories, but largely unchanged by everything. He still walks away with more than he came in with. He is never punished for greed. Which is, I think, another problem I have with the DLC. You set up a beautifully poignant morality play of greed and the consequences thereof... then just shrugs off and goes 'let's not go there, it's a silly place' and proceeds to do a song and dance number as a scene change.

I'd say the gold, and the inability to take it with you without cheese, represents the punishment for greed.

IF you try to take all the gold with you, the game will kill you. Again and again, with no way to not get killed if you want to take all the gold (without cheese; a friend said he rigged a mine to blow him into the hallway when Elijah stepped on it, so he got to the other side of the force field, but I regard "intentionally blowing yourself up" as cheese). If you are greedy, the game will punish you. If you take what is offered (items, knowledge), and don't get greedy for them, you're probably OK.

Of course, CHIM means that you don't have to learn this lesson. But it's the lesson, nonetheless.

[Rater202]

Mayhaps the Courier has the humility to be content with what they can reasonably take with them?

There's a difference between greed, taking advantage of an opportunity, and wanting a fair reward for time, effort, suffering, or so on invested in something.

The courier went through all the effort of the DLC and the loot was there. Nothing wrong with taking a reasonable amount of it on your way out.

[Lord Raziere]

Eh, I certainly wasn't humble. I learned how to make enough Turbo through CHIM to dose up enough so that I can just grab all the gold bars, then super-speed my way out before Elijah could block me off. still took a few tries though.

[veti]

Which ties into the tagline for the DLC: Learn to let go. Elijah never could, Dean never could. Christine can, in her 'good' ending.

Dean also has a "good" (for him, at least) ending, where he lets go of both Vera and the money. He shrugs, and resolves to make his way to New Vegas. Begin again.

Elijah, as you say, can't let go. The Courier plays him the same way he played them to get them there: he just can't resist coming down himself.

How does Doggod fit this pattern?

[Rynjin]

...You don't actually need any cheese OR cheats to take the gold, by the way. You can just take the most efficient route out of the room. It's what I did playing on Xbox back in the day.

[Lord Raziere]

...You don't actually need any cheese OR cheats to take the gold, by the way. You can just take the most efficient route out of the room. It's what I did playing on Xbox back in the day.

Wait, There's more than two routes? all I remember is that if you go the short way Elijah spots you immediately and if you take the long way around which I did, you simply won't get there in time with the gold and he like shuts it down and your screwed.

[Rynjin]

Wait, There's more than two routes? all I remember is that if you go the short way Elijah spots you immediately and if you take the long way around which I did, you simply won't get there in time with the gold and he like shuts it down and your screwed.

You take the shortest route out while crouched. 100 Sneak is more than enough to bamboozle Elijah.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The other way to make it out is to dump the gold onto the floor while pressed up against the forcefield. Do it right, the gold falls through the forcefield. You pick it up just before you leave. But yea, that's exploiting a glitch as well.

[Triaxx]

Fear the power of my mods! I just bring a bunch of Robco Certified Safebots. Simple.

[Lord Raziere]

Fear the power of my mods! I just bring a bunch of Robco Certified Safebots. Simple.

oh I have that mod, I just haven't tried it yet. I'm still on my second playthrough trying to get through Dead Money on my luck 10 character but death is not the problem- its the constant crashes which is happening more often than in base game probably because of the mods I got.

[LibraryOgre]

So, in reading YA books, I often find the worldbuilding falls apart about about the 3rd book.

1st book (if the series is good) is usually compelling... new ideas and things we are discovering as the world opens up to us.

2nd book builds on the first, but it might start tottering a bit... things start to interact more weirdly, and the foundation from the 1st book gets some light shown on it, and we can see the problems.

3rd book, it often falls apart; too much new stuff has been introduced, and the foundation is cracked or the edifice is tilted to the point where it's going to fall.

Now, I'm thinking about this in terms of Fallout. The first game, ok, we're 84 years after the end of the world. You've got 2-3 generations who have grown up in the post-apocalypse.

2nd game, we're 164 years after the end of the world... almost twice as long, to the point where the Vault Dweller of the first game is your great, possibly great-great, grandparent. Things are better and more organized, we see more of the world, etc.

But then we get the 3rd game (Fallout 3; I'm disregarding Tactics for this)... and the world falls apart. A solid 200 years after the End of the World... and the world is little different than we saw in Fallout 1. Little of the growth from Fallout 1 & 2 is evident. Everything is still fallen apart. Yes, we are on the other side of the continent, but we're still talking 200 years. You've got things like cars that will still explode, little to no rebuilding, little to no industry. In Fallout 1, we saw that Shady Sands grew crops, and pretty much everywhere in Fallout 2 had some visible means of survival. Fallout 3? How does Megaton survive? How does Tenpenny Tower? Why is Little Lamplight still full of children? The world is supposed to be 200 years post-apocalypse, and it plays more like 200 weeks.

And Fallout 4 is the same thing. New Vegas did a bit of work, building off Fallout 2, but the core worldbuilding of the game seldom feels like it's supposed to be centuries past the apocalypse.

[GloatingSwine]

Fallout 3 and 4 suck at worldbuilding because Bethesda sucks at worldbuilding. That's not a difficult piece of math...

Fallout 3 and 4 make absolutely no attempt to pretend that they are set in a world which exists on its own terms, they are a playground for you the player where nobody else has ever done anything of note or value, or ever will, and people cosplay in the iconography of a PC RPG series from the olden times that the player is not actually expected to remember.

[Rater202]

My assumption about Little Lamplight s that children from other communities end up being sent there because it's relatively safer.

[Lord Raziere]

Because at some point your not really playing a nuclear wasteland anymore.

progress too far, and all the radioactive places die down, new life starts growing in, and well.....what next?

you have the NCR stable and continuing to grow, probably, if we're disregarding fallout 3 and 4, the vaults and a lot of the series is about becomes irrelevant at some point, and instead we focus on the emerging post-war nations that emerge from the ashes. there is probably an East Coast Nation, sure, maybe we could have a game about West Vs East coast or something.

But what next after that? well, the rest of the world isn't really detailed in Fallout. do see chinese and russian post-war states rising from the ashes and a game about the question of whether this will all repeat again? do we try and fill in the blanks of what happened to Europe, Africa, Middle East, South america, and Australia?

you want the world to progress you have to answer these questions, because the world recovering means the nations becoming stronger, more wide, more organized, and thus the scale gets larger. thus the question of what happened to places outside the US have to be answered at some point if your progressing the setting away from its nuclear wasteland beginnings.

[Rater202]

Also, now that I think about it... The vaults, the ones with actual functional people inside them and still alive at least, aren't opening at the same times, and not every region is going to have the same resources, not everyone is going to want to rebuild: Maybe the Raider gangs are happy with the current arrangement, for example.

California is probably the best-case scenario and is probably doing really well... But a good chunk of the Common Wealth is so radioactive that storms blowing through the area periodically irradiate the whole rest of it. Between that and the institute seeming to deliberately destabilize things for their own agendas for pretty much their entire existence and it makes sense that the common wealth isn't doing so hot in comparison.

[Lord Raziere]

Also, now that I think about it... The vaults, the ones with actual functional people inside them and still alive at least, aren't opening at the same times, and not every region is going to have the same resources, not everyone is going to want to rebuild: Maybe the Raider gangs are happy with the current arrangement, for example.

California is probably the best-case scenario and is probably doing really well... But a good chunk of the Common Wealth is so radioactive that storms blowing through the area periodically irradiate the whole rest of it. Between that and the institute seeming to deliberately destabilize things for their own agendas for pretty much their entire existence and it makes sense that the common wealth isn't doing so hot in comparison.

Yeah. progress is hard, the process can be full steps backward and ideas that come too early to be useful and such.

like its very possible that the NCR just plain ends up steadily becoming an empire juggernaut that retakes everything in its way, and the commonwealth just gets steamrolled.

but still, at some point you have to start answering questions that Fallout has avoided ever since it began, which is "what happened to the rest of the world?" and bethesda's style of game where they are make one single open game world in a certain area isn't really conducive to that, because its better done with multiple levels and worldspaces that you can just fast travel between, which is often goes against the open world design they do with Fallout.

[GloatingSwine]

Because at some point your not really playing a nuclear wasteland anymore.

progress too far, and all the radioactive places die down, new life starts growing in, and well.....what next?

Well yeah, and that's what Fallout 2 and New Vegas explore. The "what next".