What Bargain Would Redcloak Accept?

[CountDVB]

The problem is that Redcloak is operating under false assumptions and pretenses. He'd have to be relieved of those and see the bigger picture, but there is no gurantee on him changing his mind.

I don't think any bargain would be enough because he doesn't want to bargain, he just wants to be proven right and indulge in his vengeance, something he would never admit.

[tomandtish]

.....1) The Dark One explicitly told Redcloak not to prioritize Gobbotopia over the Plan.

1) I don't remember TDO saying that.

The only thing we know (assuming Jirix is telling the truth) is that TDO told Jirix to tell Redcloak "Don't screw this up".

Interestingly, without context, we can't say FOR CERTAIN what he meant. He could be telling Redcloak to not screw up Goblintopia.

[Alskandar]

I think that ultimately, what Redcloak wants is for the gods to descend to Earth, apologize for what they've done to his people and to him, and make the world fair for goblins by divine might. (And I imagine he doesn't really know what "fair for goblins" means in practical terms- it's a nebulous goal that he's never really thought about specifically.) And the most important part is that it has to come from the gods, because he blames the gods for the goblins' misfortunes, he thinks anything less than the actions of gods won't bring about the change he seeks, and anything less than vindication by the gods themselves won't let him justify the things he's done.

And that's not going to happen- he's never going to get the sort of divine vindication he wants, because the gods can't just fix this problem and they don't think they've done anything wrong.

[goodyarn]

Given our present situation and the knowledge made available to us, is there any offer anyone could make that Redcloak would accept?

Give the goblins the planet that exists inside the rift, once Xykon is defeated and the Snarl is tamed.

There's a certain symmetry to this, as both the Snarl and the goblins are the victims of the gods' lack of conscientiousness.

I have suggested this elsewhere and been told my solution is "too simple."

[understatement]

The only thing we know (assuming Jirix is telling the truth) is that TDO told Jirix to tell Redcloak "Don't screw this up".

Interestingly, without context, we can't say FOR CERTAIN what he meant. He could be telling Redcloak to not screw up Goblintopia.

While it is ambiguous in-text, there is author confirmation that the Dark One is explicitly referring to the Plan.

=

As for "planet in the rift" solution...no. Weird implications. If a race of people can't get along with everyone else, the appropriate consequence is...to send them off to an uninhabited world away from other civilizations and thus have other races view them with even less attention and dignity before?

Nah.

[Worldsong]

Give the goblins the planet that exists inside the rift, once Xykon is defeated and the Snarl is tamed.

There's a certain symmetry to this, as both the Snarl and the goblins are the victims of the gods' lack of conscientiousness.

I have suggested this elsewhere and been told my solution is "too simple."

Given that Rich intends for the goblinoid plot to be an allegory for systemic discrimination I don't think he'll be going for segregation as the answer.

[CountDVB]

I think that ultimately, what Redcloak wants is for the gods to descend to Earth, apologize for what they've done to his people and to him, and make the world fair for goblins by divine might. (And I imagine he doesn't really know what "fair for goblins" means in practical terms- it's a nebulous goal that he's never really thought about specifically.) And the most important part is that it has to come from the gods, because he blames the gods for the goblins' misfortunes, he thinks anything less than the actions of gods won't bring about the change he seeks, and anything less than vindication by the gods themselves won't let him justify the things he's done.

And that's not going to happen- he's never going to get the sort of divine vindication he wants, because the gods can't just fix this problem and they don't think they've done anything wrong.

Problem is Redcloak has a large habit of generalizing. He has stereotypes on all the other races and he thinks the gods are all one unified group against the goblins.

He hasn’t given the time to find out more and expand his horizons because he is still the angsty and angry teenager he was when he put on the Crimson Mantle.

Meanwhile, the gods are only unified in keeping themselves from the Snarl with everything else up for debate or tied up in the deific bureaucracy and web of agreements, to prevent any imbalances. If he took the time to actually research or find out about the other gods, he probably would’ve figured this out. If not the deals, then that each god has their own agenda and so on that may not align with the others.

I don’t think he’ll be able to make any meaningful growth or so on until he loses the Crimson Mantle (maybe Xykon takes it from him and now he has to come to terms with what happen and owning up to his failures, which could include telling us his real name.)

[Jason]

And that's not going to happen- he's never going to get the sort of divine vindication he wants, because the gods can't just fix this problem and they don't think they've done anything wrong.

Not only that, but only the good-aligned gods and maybe some of the neutrals would care if they were convinced they had done wrong. The evil god's answer to "you've wronged my race!" Would be "yeah, we're evil."

[dps]

Hinjo would news roping in to any negotiation over Gobbotopias sovereignty.

Uhm, this seems to be a grammatically correct English sentence, but I can't extract any logical meaning from it.

[Metastachydium]

Not only that, but only the good-aligned gods and maybe some of the neutrals would care if they were convinced they had done wrong. The evil god's answer to "you've wronged my race!" Would be "yeah, we're evil."

(The funny thing is that the Plan does, in fact, account for this (heck, it's based around the assumption that the good gods will refuse to make amends unless they are, khm, persuaded to do so (which also means that even if someone pointed this out to Redcloak, he could and would simply reply that "Yeah, that's what the Plan is for" and it would make all kinds of sense from his perspective)).)

[ReaderAt2046]

As I've said elsewhere, I think a big part of Redcloak's problem is that he himself doesn't know what he really wants. He knows he wants "equality", but he has never bothered to figure out what that actually means in practical terms or how to get from where the goblin race was at the start of the Plan to that hypothetical perfect world. This probably has to do with the fact that he never expected to be doing the negotiating himself, the Plan was always intended to put the Snarl in the hands of the Dark One and have him do the negotiating directly with the other Gods.

And then the other problem with Redcloak is that he has a warped view of the non-TDO gods of the Stickworld and how they relate to racism. He talks about "the gods" like they are a single homogenous group, instead of thirty-odd different entities with their own goals, personalities, and conflicting agendas. He likewise appears to believe that there is some kind of "favored race" class that goblins are excluded from, and that other races are attacking goblins only because these homogenous "gods" he believes in have given the OK, rather than because the goblins are Evil, or because the adventurers are Evil, or because of complex sociopolitical factors leading to conflict between different nations.

So I don't think Redcloak will accept any bargain short of "the gods" fixing everything in one big deus ex machina. Which isn't going to happen, in part because the gods are divided amongst themselves and aren't likely to all agree, in part because they've built the system to resist large changes at this point, and in part because the gods can't actually make a world without death and suffering and conflict.

[goodyarn]

Given that Rich intends for the goblinoid plot to be an allegory for systemic discrimination I don't think he'll be going for segregation as the answer.

Apples and oranges, no? Even if you're correctly divining the Giant's plan here, it's not hard to imagine a scenario where OOTS offers that world in good faith, Redcloak accepts but because of Plot Complication X it doesn't end up that way.

We're talking about what Redcloak wants. I can't imagine he'd turn down a planet full of good land for his people because he also needs... what?...the acceptance of the other races?

[dps]

We're talking about what Redcloak wants. I can't imagine he'd turn down a planet full of good land for his people because he also needs... what?...the acceptance of the other races?

I can imagine it, because what he really wants, as someone stated up-thread, is to be proven right.

[goodyarn]

I can imagine it, because what he really wants, as someone stated up-thread, is to be proven right.

How does his current plan prove him right? To who?

I thought the point of his current plan, as expressed in strip 830, was to force the Gods to make concessions which would improve the lives of goblins. Doesn't my solution do the same thing?

(edited)

[denthor]

"You guys let me do what I'm doing and leave me alone to enact my plan and I kindly will not kill you maybe"
"sure!"
"Deal accepted!"
though I can't seem to see it playing out like that

This can not happen The purple quiddy one has liquidated every envoy from every god sent. Tiamat is the only one that has been in contact. Maybe

[CountDVB]

How does his current plan prove him right? To who?

I thought the point of his current plan was to make the Gods acknowledge that the goblins deserve more and better land, and then give the goblins that land. Doesn't my solution do the same thing?

Basically, he wants to prove that he wasn't wrong for allying with Xykon and following a reckless plan that resulted in a lot of goblins dying.

Spoiler: Spoilers for Start of Darkness

Show

He claims working with Xykon and his murderous tendencies are all for the "greater good of the goblins." But when Right-Eye suggests betraying Xykon, he refuses on the basis that it would be a waste of goblin lives. Right-Eye calls him on it, and what little good it's done.

Hell, Xykon mocks him for this. He mocks him for how if Right-Eye had succeeded in killing Xykon it would mean having to admit that he (Redcloak) was wrong, and that it was his fault that all those goblins died. So rather than own up to his failures, Redcloak killed Righteye. As Xykon puts it, Redcloak following Xykon gives him an excuse to look the other way and say it's out of his hands, even though they both know that Redcloak had a choice like Right-Eye did, but like Xykon said, he's "too chicken****" to admit it.

Note the following exchange:
Xykon: I now have every confidence that you will act to serve my interests from now on, even when I'm not really around to supervise you. I know that you'll protect my phylactery if my body is destroyed.
Redcloak: You don't know that... I could wait until someone defeated you, and then—
Xykon: And then face the realization that if you destroy my phylactery, you killed Right-Eye over nothing. Nothing at all. And you don't have the balls for that.
Redcloak: I—I can raise him from the dead! I'm a Cleric, I just have to—
Xykon: Ah, but he'll know. He'll remember that you killed him to protect me, and he'll know you for what you are: My willing slave. And man, you REALLY don't have the balls for that.

As long as he sticks to The Plan and with Xykon, he can keep claiming all of this insanity will be worth it, even if as it becomes obvious The Plan is half-baked and riddled with holes, but he ignores it because he doesn't wanna own up to his problems. His argument with his brother was the sacrifices were important and therfore, not his fault.

In fact, before the speech, he looks to his eyepatched reflection and notes "it will all be worth it". It's referring to Righteye.

[goodyarn]

Basically, he wants to prove that he wasn't wrong for allying with Xykon and following a reckless plan that resulted in a lot of goblins dying.

If he had done that thing you reference from SoD, he would have wound up with nothing, correct? Because he was wrong for allying with Xykon and followed a reckless plan that resulted in a lot of goblins dying for nothing.

My way he gets a planet.

He can even tell himself he got that planet because he allied with Xykon. Would Thor have sent Durkon to bargain with him if he'd never allied with Xykon?

[CountDVB]

If he had done that thing you reference from SoD, he would have wound up with nothing, correct? Because he was wrong for allying with Xykon and followed a reckless plan that resulted in a lot of goblins dying for nothing.

My way he gets a planet.

He can even tell himself he got that planet because he allied with Xykon. Would Thor have sent Durkon to bargain with him if he'd never allied with Xykon?

The only thing Redcloak got from allying to Xykon was getting into enough trouble to become 17th level and thus unlock the necessary 9th-level spell slot needed for this. Which is still so-so...

The fact is Redcloak may reject because he would still see the gods as a threat and that because it may not satisfy his need for payback. Righteye noted that the Dark One had become a petty and spiteful god and given Redcloak is following his Plan... who's to say he's not operating the same?

[goodyarn]

The only thing Redcloak got from allying to Xykon was getting into enough trouble to become 17th level and thus unlock the necessary 9th-level spell slot needed for this. Which is still so-so...

The fact is Redcloak may reject because he would still see the gods as a threat and that because it may not satisfy his need for payback. Righteye noted that the Dark One had become a petty and spiteful god and given Redcloak is following his Plan... who's to say he's not operating the same?

Sure, maybe. It's not like I am expecting Redcloak to reform here. That said, if you're looking for a reasonable offer that would tempt him, I think that's what you go with.

[Worldsong]

Apples and oranges, no? Even if you're correctly divining the Giant's plan here, it's not hard to imagine a scenario where OOTS offers that world in good faith, Redcloak accepts but because of Plot Complication X it doesn't end up that way.

We're talking about what Redcloak wants. I can't imagine he'd turn down a planet full of good land for his people because he also needs... what?...the acceptance of the other races?

Maybe, although there's the small problem that so far as Redcloak knows the rift also contains a soul-destroying abomination even deities are helpless against, so you'd first have to convince him that offering him the planet inside the rift isn't just a really weak attempt at getting him to self-destruct.

[goodyarn]

Maybe, although there's the small problem that so far as Redcloak knows the rift also contains a soul-destroying abomination even deities are helpless against, so you'd first have to convince him that offering him the planet inside the rift isn't just a really weak attempt at getting him to self-destruct.

Yes. You could get around that by first obtaining the 9th level spell and destroying or binding the Snarl, but to do that you'd have to convince Redcloak that he wasn't giving up everything by destroying or binding the Snarl. Convincing Redcloak that your side is acting in good faith is the hard part.

Also, this is all assuming that the planet isn't the Snarl and vice versa (as Odin said, "yarn winding yarn"), but that's another topic.

[Vikenlugaid]

I'd say that is natural: after tens of years you (think you) are eventually winning, your enemies come and say that if you win, you actually lose, but fear not, we can find an agreement so that you can stop your war, now that you're winning.

Yeah, sure, do you want to sell to me the Colosseum, too?

Yes, of course, he has pretty good reasons to not trust Durkon. And that's the problem. If Durkon shows him any prove that he is telling the truth, Redcloak would think different. But til then, he won't accept any bargain and not because the bargain is not enough good, that's irrelevant.

[Vikenlugaid]

The only thing Redcloak got from allying to Xykon was getting into enough trouble to become 17th level and thus unlock the necessary 9th-level spell slot needed for this. Which is still so-so...

And conquering a City, and becoming Supreme Leader of 87? Legions of hobgoblins, and now have a chance to seize kraagor's gate.
If it weren't for Xykon, Redcloak would probably died for a random sapphire guard attack long ago. He alone is pretty strong, but not a real Final Boss.

[Riftwolf]

Uhm, this seems to be a grammatically correct English sentence, but I can't extract any logical meaning from it.

'news' should be 'need'. Damn autocorrect.

While it is ambiguous in-text, there is author confirmation that the Dark One is explicitly referring to the Plan.

Source?

[Crimsonmantle]

Redcloak has to understand that the gods will never give him what he wants

Say rather that he would have to understand that the Gods really will give him what he wants, because even if they did a deal might fail due to his - justified, basically! - complete lack of faith in them. I don't see how this ends well for anybody concerned.
All the more reason to keep reading the strip.

Irt the planet within the rift (not gonna bother finding some other quote to latch onto) someone remind me again what strip(s) it was shown in because I seem to recall it looking rather like this one. Maybe it won't be the goblinoids who self-deport there?

[understatement]

Source?

Here:

Most importantly, the idea needed to be put forth that just because Redcloak had, in fact, established a goblin state on the grave of Azure City did not mean that he was being let off the hook for carrying out his god’s evil plan for the Gates. If Redcloak was the hero of the story, he could probably rest on his laurels at this point, but as the villain, he needs to keep moving.

Wordcount.

[goodyarn]

Irt the planet within the rift (not gonna bother finding some other quote to latch onto) someone remind me again what strip(s) it was shown in because I seem to recall it looking rather like this one. Maybe it won't be the goblinoids who self-deport there?

Strip 672

Lengthening my post to more than 10 characters

[rbetieh]

Here's a solution.

Divy up the non-Goblin souls so that The Dark One survives the destruction of the world, destroy said world, then give his pantheon equal say in the creation of the next world. That is to say, for every 3 gods that take a turn TDO takes a turn.


Boom, instant Gobbotopia. And at this point, its near 100% likely that this is what Redcloak actually is aiming for.

[Worldsong]

Here's a solution.

Divy up the non-Goblin souls so that The Dark One survives the destruction of the world, destroy said world, then give his pantheon equal say in the creation of the next world. That is to say, for every 3 gods that take a turn TDO takes a turn.


Boom, instant Gobbotopia. And at this point, its near 100% likely that this is what Redcloak actually is aiming for.

Aside from it being unlikely that one could just give another god souls to survive the period between worlds most people seem to have some kind of issue with letting all the inhabitants of the current world die.

[pearl jam]

The thread title is about bargains Redcloak would accept, though, not everyone else!