What Bargain Would Redcloak Accept?

[KorvinStarmast]

Obviously they just have to bonk RC over the head until the brain damage makes him accept their help.

it's a method, but it has risks.

For the OP:
What Bargain Would Redcloak Accept?
From the PCs, nothing, until Xykon is destroyed.
If Xykon is destroyed, some kind of offer that leaves Gobbotopia intact, an accepted city-state of this world.

[Edreyn]

That what should it be:


Surrender unconditionally right now - or be destroyed!


If only the Order had means to back that up.

[masamune1]

Yeah, Xykon is a psycho, but still he is Redcloak's most powerfull weapon. What level was Redcloak the day he met Xykon? pretty low I guess, and three years later he was attacking Lirian's gate and he was defeated pretty easy by a tiger, Lirian didn't need the guardian virus to stop him, only to stop the crazy powerfull old sorcerer... without Xykon there i don't even think Redcloak would had attacker Lirian's gate at all, he didn't have a chance.

In the Lich creation scene, Xykon is called "The 120,000 GP and 4800 XP man".

That implies that the elderly Human Xykon was a mere 3rd Level Sorcerer and Redcloak even weaker than that, which I guess makes sense since Xykon was kind of a failure who picked on weaklings and Redcloak was only a 1st Level Cleric when he got the Mantle by chance.

Obviously they got a lot stronger over the following decades.

Unless that was either a mistype or a joke.

[Mike Havran]

In the Lich creation scene, Xykon is called "The 120,000 GP and 4800 XP man".

That implies that the elderly Human Xykon was a mere 3rd Level Sorcerer and Redcloak even weaker than that, which I guess makes sense since Xykon was kind of a failure who picked on weaklings and Redcloak was only a 1st Level Cleric when he got the Mantle by chance.

Obviously they got a lot stronger over the following decades.

Unless that was either a mistype or a joke.

I have absolutely no idea where your implication comes from; Redcloak was casting 5th level spells and Xykon 9th level spells when they battled Lirian.

[gerald_of_sengir]

I have absolutely no idea where your implication comes from; Redcloak was casting 5th level spells and Xykon 9th level spells when they battled Lirian.

4800 XP makes you a 3rd level character in 3.5. However, the 4800 XP and 120,000 gp is the cost of a Lich phylactery in 3.5, which is what the Lich creation scene is referencing

[masamune1]

4800 XP makes you a 3rd level character in 3.5. However, the 4800 XP and 120,000 gp is the cost of a Lich phylactery in 3.5, which is what the Lich creation scene is referencing

Ah, that clears that up for me.

[Spriteless]

The Dark One would accept a deal with the IFCC to have V cast the arcane portion of the spell. TDO doesn't trust gods, but beings a bit less powerful than him could be less threatening, and thus more appealing. And IFCC has practice making their deals appealing.

Rich has got to start tying plots together again, this is the last book!

[KorvinStarmast]

The Dark One would accept a deal with the IFCC to have V cast the arcane portion of the spell. TDO doesn't trust gods, but beings a bit less powerful than him could be less threatening, and thus more appealing. And IFCC has practice making their deals appealing.

I like where you went with this.

Rich has got to start tying plots together again, this is the last book!

Or, he pulls a George RR Martin and says "Ya know, I actually need to make this 9 books"

Spoiler: An appeal

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- Rich, please don't!

[Riftwolf]

Or, he pulls a George RR Martin and says "Ya know, I actually need to make this 9 books"

Spoiler: An appeal

Show

- Rich, please don't!

Hasn't he gone on record saying this will be the last book even if it's the size of a yoga block?

[snowblizz]

Hasn't he gone on record saying this will be the last book even if it's the size of a yoga block?

Yes. This is where there would be a link if could find it.

Summon Banana IX ?

[Jason]

Hasn't he gone on record saying this will be the last book even if it's the size of a yoga block?

Robert Jordan said something similar. Then he died and the author who finished the series had to write three books to finish up the series.

[hamishspence]

Yes. This is where there would be a link if could find it.

Summon Banana IX ?

The quote in question.

Yeah, it'll be seven, even if the last one looks like a phone book.

[Mariele]

*squints* Well, I guess you could be a banana. You look yellow.

Yoga block... phone book... by the time this book is actually done, I want to see all the variations on that theme people have misremembered.

[Krenn]

Given our present situation and the knowledge made available to us, is there any offer anyone could make that Redcloak would accept?

Even if OotS had the power to grant Redcloak's wildest demands, would that satisfy him? Or would he simply increase his demands?

The only thing I could envision would be complete role reversal, with the current PC races becoming XP for the goblins. This is obviously not where this comic is going.

So, to what deal would Redcloak agree?

There are really three questions here... or maybe four....

We do need to remember that Redcloak IS EVIL, is ALLIED WITH EVIL, and routinely does EVIL THINGS. Even if SOME of his complaints do have justice behind them, there is very much a priority system in place here, in terms of negotiating in good faith, accepting reasonable compromises, and not destroying the entire world in a fit of pique or zealotry.

Question 1: What could the OOTS actually realistically offer, without breaking reality, which might attract Redcloak's interest enough for him to even HYPOTHETICALLY be willing to sit down and negotiate in good faith?

Question 2: At this point, would Redcloak EVER be willing to negotiate in good faith, unless he either received a direct order from the Dark One to do so, or was defeated, captured, and no-longer had any hope in an alternative?

Question 3: Once Redcloak DID sit down, and DID start to negotiate in something resembling good faith, does he even actually understand the limits of reality sufficiently well, and is he even sufficiently rational and compromising enough, for him to ACTUALLY ACCEPT something which 'only' goes as far as the current reality actually permits? Or is he going to continue insisting on a choice between the impossible vs the unthinkable?

Question 4: Hypothetically, with a different species in a similar bad starting position to that of the goblins , but without redcloak as a leader, without a world-ending plan in motion, and without the recent military history of successful conquest of human lands, what would a generic, fair, morally acceptable offer be, to be issued as an open deal for that species to accept if they were ever willing to do so?

[Xelbiuj]

Honestly, who cares what Redcloak would accept? He's a militant zealot beyond reason.

Slay RC and destroy the Crimson Mantle. There could be no peace while he and it exists. Their existence forces the goblin race into a monolith of RC's will instead of free individuals.

Afterwards, peace can be negotiated with Gobbotopia.

[hamishspence]

The commentary in Utterly Dwarfed implied that this was not an option.

Spoiler

Show

Round 7

Until now, it was reasonable to think that defeating Xykon and resealing the rifts would count as a win. But with the scope of the true problem laid out before him, Durkon can see that just resetting back to the state of things at the beginning of the series won't be enough. Not when there's hope for a more lasting victory over the forces of entropy and destruction. Of course, that victory will be a little more difficult to come by than simply bashing one lich and one goblin until they aren't a threat anymore, which raises the stakes for the conflict to come.

Round 8

(stuff about compromising with Hilgya) ... just as he now must find a way to make peace with Redcloak for the sake of the entire world.

[KorvinStarmast]

And we don't know the whole story about The Snarl either.

Yeah, the hint that we have many reveals to go on that is the world inside the rift(s)

Honestly, who cares what Redcloak would accept? He's a militant zealot beyond reason.

True, so far. But one thing we have discovered in OoTS is that change can happen for major characters.

Slay RC and destroy the Crimson Mantle. There could be no peace while he and it exists. Their existence forces the goblin race into a monolith of RC's will instead of free individuals.

Afterwards, peace can be negotiated with Gobbotopia.

That's a method. It also leaves Durkon being unable to complete the mission Thor gave him, and it leaves the world at risk of dissolution sooner, rather than there being a chance for a permanent repair. (A can of Fix-a-Flat rather than a complete tire repair).

On the other hand, Jirix would probably be open to some negotiations that strengthen his position in Gobbotopia. They'd put up a statue to Reddie, mourn him, have an annual holiday ... and get on with their lives.

[Pax_Chi]

At this point, I get the feeling that even if the Dark One himself told Red Cloak to abandon the plan in favor of something else, Red Cloak might still refuse because he's in too deep.

[KorvinStarmast]

At this point, I get the feeling that even if the Dark One himself told Red Cloak to abandon the plan in favor of something else {snip}

I think Reddie would be ecstatic that TDO finally spoke to him. And in his joy, might even do as TDO says to do regardless of how that impacts the plan.

[snowblizz]

I think Reddie would be ecstatic that TDO finally spoke to him. And in his joy, might even do as TDO says to do regardless of how that impacts the plan.

Unfortunately zealots are tough to deal with. At this point if the TDO spoke to him, naturally he wouldn't believe it was really TDO because he doesn't speak to him. If in fact the speaking would be against RC's own wish to hold on to the sunk cost.

Bascially, if TDO said what RC wanted ot hear he'll be ok with it. If it's something he doesn't want to hear, he'll rationalize it away. We'd have a new Miko.

[KorvinStarmast]

Unfortunately zealots are tough to deal with. At this point if the TDO spoke to him, naturally he wouldn't believe it was really TDO because he doesn't speak to him. If in fact the speaking would be against RC's own wish to hold on to the sunk cost.

Bascially, if TDO said what RC wanted ot hear he'll be ok with it. If it's something he doesn't want to hear, he'll rationalize it away. We'd have a new Miko.

The over reliance on the sunk cost element is, to me, lazy thinking and an extremely narrow way to look at Redcloak - it is not at all charitable. Rich has demonstrated, clearly, that major characters are capable of change. Redcloak is, by any measure, a major character.

[brian 333]

I think Mr. B. has written Redcloak as a classic 'tragic character' and narrative convention requires such characters to be broken or dead by the story's end. About the best ending I can forsee for RC is for him to crawl into some cave and become a bitter old recluse that nurses his hate for PC races forever.

The possibilities for goblins as a race, however, are much brighter. They don't even need to keep Gobbotopia to have a better future. They just have to give up perpetual war, (TDO,) and accept responsibility for their own future.

Oh, wait. That would mean they have to take personal responsibility for their individual futures instead of waiting to be given prosperity.

Nevermind.

[The_Weirdo]

Given our present situation and the knowledge made available to us, is there any offer anyone could make that Redcloak would accept?

Even if OotS had the power to grant Redcloak's wildest demands, would that satisfy him? Or would he simply increase his demands?

The only thing I could envision would be complete role reversal, with the current PC races becoming XP for the goblins. This is obviously not where this comic is going.

So, to what deal would Redcloak agree?

"I want goblins to have an equal shot and I want my normal life back. The one the Sapphire Guard stole from me."

[Dr.Zero]

"I want goblins to have an equal shot and I want my normal life back. The one the Sapphire Guard stole from me."

I see only two solutions:
this one, which I don't know if it's someway official http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/pg/20030409b
or this one, which will give him a couple of days of happiness, before that he dies, https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm

[Riftwolf]

Robert Jordan said something similar. Then he died and the author who finished the series had to write three books to finish up the series.

I use one of those books as a yoga block XD

[The_Weirdo]

I see only two solutions:
this one, which I don't know if it's someway official http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/pg/20030409b
or this one, which will give him a couple of days of happiness, before that he dies, https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/microcosm.htm

Divine intervention, maybe?

[Empiar93]

About the best ending I can forsee for RC is for him to crawl into some cave and become a bitter old recluse that nurses his hate for PC races forever.

Personally, my best guess as for Redcloak’s ending is to see him

Spoiler

Show

apologizing to his brother in the afterlife. Right-Eye will, of course, interrupt him with a hug and say not to worry about it anymore

[Dr.Zero]

Divine intervention, maybe?

A deus ex machina that fixes all the problems and reasons that generated the plot, making everything that happened nil?

Not sure I'd appreciate that. It sounds a more complicated version of "It was all Pamela's dream".

[brian 333]

Spoiler: Empiar93;25055406

Show

...apologizing to his brother in the afterlife. Right-Eye will, of course, interrupt him with a hug and say not to worry about it anymore

Won't be a lot of time for that in the afterlife that is unending warfare.

[KorvinStarmast]

Divine intervention, maybe?

I am pretty sure that Rich has gone on record as not liking the deus ex machina.

A deus ex machina that fixes all the problems and reasons that generated the plot, making everything that happened nil?

Not sure I'd appreciate that. It sounds a more complicated version of "It was all Pamela's dream".

And it would utterly destroy the story Rich has worked so hard to craft over about 17 years.